wild calling us liberals when your entire argument relies on the word “average”.
Again, is Phelps at an unfair advantage because he has a long torso and long arms which give him a more powerful stroke?
If you want to be fair in sports then let athletes use whatever PEDs they want, and abolish categories. And yes cis men will be at the top. But that is the only way you can be truly fair. You talk about flyweight and heavyweight categories as if they’re law when every athlete at any level starves and dehydrates themselves before the weigh-in, then binges after it to get into a lighter category. The only solution to the “problem” you present is to abolish categories.
Do ypu really think that pointing out the biological differences between men and women is transphobic? As Marxists we need to base our thinking on materialist facts, and it is undeniable that there are differences between men and women which no amount of hormone therapy or surgery can remove (as @LemonKemon@lemmygrad.ml explained very well).
Ignoring those facts and calling them transphobic is basically denying reality.
I refrained from giving any of my own opinion in the above comment because I knew exactly where lemonkemon was going. They seem to have memorized this whole spiel – notice there are no links – and I was not interested in going through it bit by bit. I’m sure they must have these figures at the ready for all the terf arguments they get into. I want to add before moving on that it didn’t take long for them to say “you dont get to compete if you’re a male in womens categories”, which proves I was right in my assessment. That’s why I dismissed their argument that I’m sure has been refined over many debates and instead asked questions and pointed out, I think rightly, that they are talking about averages, not absolutes.
I have known men who had wide hips. I have known men with narrow shoulders. I’ve known women that were stronger than me (and might still be), and I’ve known women with shoulders wider than their hips. Christine Mboma was banned from running the 400m (which she set a record to at the Olympics) because her testosterone levels are naturally too high, and she is not the only athlete that happened to. So what was lemonkemon saying? I honestly have no idea, because one can point to all the averages they want, they remain statistical. Specifically I genuinely don’t understand how they can make all these claims relying on averages and then conclude “The point of sports is to reward … pinnacle of human achievement”. We’re looking for people that are not average then.
If I should take some of their arguments and examine them, however, and also refrain from sarcastically saying [citation needed] for every one of them:
For an adult female at the height of their atheltic career their body contains 10% percent fat
For an elite athletic male that figure is around 5%
In which disciplines? 5% body fat is ridiculously low, it’s dangerous and unhealthy (but might be done all the same especially in bodybuilding competitions), and I know that already because I do powerlifting. There is also no indication here that trans athletes don’t see the same body fat percentages happen to them – they likely do, because of hormone therapy, but that was for lemonkemon to prove. But I would say athletes are thin in most sports, not that they have low body fat percentages. These are two different things and a pretty bad start to establish authority for a scientific argument.
Wider hips also compromise carrying and throwing
I decided to look this up specifically and did not find anything that would support this statement, no matter the keywords I tried. But I did find this study: https://news.umich.edu/throw-like-a-girl-no-he-or-she-just-hasnt-been-taught/. They claim that girls are not taught the same motor skills as boys and point out that boys usually spend more time in the field than girls, which to them explains the difference.
One study is not enough to prove anything so at this point the best we can say is that we need further research before making conclusions.
The fastest time ever run by Allyson Felix, the women’s 400-metre Olympic champion
I’m not sure what they’re trying to say here. Allyson Felix is not the world record holder in this category, and she took home the bronze medal in the last Tokyo Olympics. Her record puts her at the 26th place with a time of 49.26 (worldwide), with Marita Koch being 1st since 1957 (East Germany 💪) with a time of 47.60. So I’m genuinely confused why they picked Allyson and not the world record holder because the argument would still hold water.
You’re right that we need to base our thinking on materialism, but that materialism has to be dialectical or it’s, plainly, worth nothing. What does it mean, in concrete terms, in practical social life, that women have wider hips? That’s the difference between their metaphysical materialism and dialectical materialism. Is this what is preventing them from achieving high records? Not sure. At that point in time, lemonkemon was extrapolating data and delving into vulgar materialism. This culminated in them posting the map of LGBT Rights (an outdated map too) and comparing it to NATO. Correlation does not equal causation.
Your argument seems to be based mainly on anecdotal evidence, and ignorance of biology. Lets look at some facts instead, like world records in athletics. You can clearly see that women’s records are significantly lower than men’s records. Sure we can argue what the reasons for that are, but the fact remains. And so its no surprise that some third rate male athlete can compete at much higher levels against women, which is exactly the problem that this thread is discussing.
I think it is really wrong to ban someone for a difference in opinion, especially as that opinion was well explained and based on facts.
I didn’t make the ban, and the user made their opinions clear later on with several examples, e.g. “trans ideology” in their last comment. This is not a difference of opinion, there was actionable content there – it goes directly against rule 2 of the instance.
The discussion we are having here. @LemonKemon@lemmygrad.ml was banned for explaining that there are biological differences between women, and men who change gender to become women. How can we have a useful discussion of the topic if mentioning actual facts is forbidden under the rule?
How can you ignore the context? He wasn’t banned for mentioning “actual facts”, he was banned for being transphobic. In his other comments, he associated LGBT people with pedophilia and “trans ideology”, and shared a random sourceless map created in mapchart website to prove his point. His map was also inaccurate and even false, claiming China allows discrimination of LGBT people, where in reality China even has a multidisciplinary health clinic for transgender children.
Refer to CriticalResist’s comment on the specific issues of his comment. He was using (unverified) data on the average sexual differences in humans, but athletes are not average, nor they are supposed to be. In fact, the opposite, athletes are supposed to be way above average.
But outside the abstract average, there are huge differences between men and between women themselves. What’s more important is that no matter your biological tendencies, what makes an athlete stand out is hard work and practice. The reason why some trans women won some competitions is because they have worked hard for it. These “useful discussions” usually ignore these “actual facts”. Because being born with testicles does not automatically mean you have an advantage, because again, what makes an athlete is hard work, not their sexual gonads. I can safely say that 99% of cis male athlete swimmers will not achieve the female world record for the 100m free in their lifetimes, even though the male record is higher. Saying that trans women should not be allowed on sports according to their gender identity because those born with testicles have “an evolutionary advantage” is not only transphobic but also male chauvinism.
The article you sent mentions a woman who is protesting against the inclusion of transgender in sports. That same woman was invited by PragerU to talk about this issue. Is it so hard for you to see that this argument is usually parroted by reactionaries?
You do know that some institutions require trans women in sports to take hormones so that they’re on the same level as cis women, right? And that the use of these hormones affects their performance negatively, yet they are required to use it anyways?
In any case, a “third rate male athlete” wouldn’t be able to compete as easily against highly trained cis women. Most of the performance you see in sports are related to the training, practice, they do before they perform. These are years and years of supervised training. No one is ever born an athlete, their years of practice makes their performance better, not their hormones alone.
The main difference between men and women isnt in the amount of some hormones, but in the changes that occur during puberty. At that time, major changes occur in the body of women, to allow them to give birth. Compared to men, they store more fat, build up less muscle, have softer bones and wider hips. All of those are disadvantages in sports, and an adult man will retain them even after hormone therapy.
wild calling us liberals when your entire argument relies on the word “average”.
No it doesn’t. Do you consider the womens fastest runner “average” because men break that record upwards of 15000 times a year?
Again, is Phelps at an unfair advantage because he has a long torso and long arms which give him a more powerful stroke?
Cringe, groping at straws to justify a massive evolutionary advantage in men so I’ll just repeat what I already typed.
A comparable female athlete would have 65% less strength in her legs and 90% less strength in her arms
abolish categories. And yes cis men will be at the top. But that is the only way you can be truly fair.
Lmao imagine calling yourself a communist and typing this out. You might want to reread some of the stats I provided. This would be the end of womens sports. Another real life example which you can go ahead and ignore and erase women from existing because “actually womanhood is a universal category anyone, especially men, can join”:
In 1998, Serena and Venus Williams threw down a challenge: that either of them could beat any male tennis player ranked 200th or below. Karsten Braasch, then ranked 203rd, took them up on it. He prepared with ‘a leisurely round of golf in the morning followed by a couple of shandies’, he wrote afterwards. He beat Serena in a single set 6–1, and then Venus 6–2. In 2020, when Andy Murray suggested an exhibition match against her, Serena refused, saying: ‘I would lose 6–0, 6–0 in five to six minutes, maybe ten minutes . . . the men are a lot faster and they serve harder; they hit harder. It’s just a different game.’
You talk about flyweight and heavyweight categories as if they’re law when every athlete at any level starves and dehydrates themselves before the weigh-in, then binges after it to get into a lighter category.
TIL that modifying you weight slightly before a weigh in is the same as a heavy weight boxer fighting a fly weight. Lets abolish those categories too. The flys should fight heavys
The only solution to the “problem” you present is to abolish categories
Lmao you came out and said it. Lets have able bodied people in the paraolympics, abolish age categorys for different sports
Wonderful. No girl would ever take up sport again if that were the case. Sports would be utterly dominated by men. a 203rd ranked Tennis player can thrash 2 of the top womens tennis players.
Instead of 2 icons from my childhood they’d probably be ranked number 260/261 behind 259 men
Why would any girl or woman ever take up sports again?
lay this map over Nato and NATOs “partner” nations and let me know what it tells you about the nature of deranged Western theories on sex spread by pedophiles like John Money (the father of modern trans ideology) and their relation to mass consumer culture and imperialism
wild calling us liberals when your entire argument relies on the word “average”.
Again, is Phelps at an unfair advantage because he has a long torso and long arms which give him a more powerful stroke?
If you want to be fair in sports then let athletes use whatever PEDs they want, and abolish categories. And yes cis men will be at the top. But that is the only way you can be truly fair. You talk about flyweight and heavyweight categories as if they’re law when every athlete at any level starves and dehydrates themselves before the weigh-in, then binges after it to get into a lighter category. The only solution to the “problem” you present is to abolish categories.
Do ypu really think that pointing out the biological differences between men and women is transphobic? As Marxists we need to base our thinking on materialist facts, and it is undeniable that there are differences between men and women which no amount of hormone therapy or surgery can remove (as @LemonKemon@lemmygrad.ml explained very well).
Ignoring those facts and calling them transphobic is basically denying reality.
I refrained from giving any of my own opinion in the above comment because I knew exactly where lemonkemon was going. They seem to have memorized this whole spiel – notice there are no links – and I was not interested in going through it bit by bit. I’m sure they must have these figures at the ready for all the terf arguments they get into. I want to add before moving on that it didn’t take long for them to say “you dont get to compete if you’re a male in womens categories”, which proves I was right in my assessment. That’s why I dismissed their argument that I’m sure has been refined over many debates and instead asked questions and pointed out, I think rightly, that they are talking about averages, not absolutes.
I have known men who had wide hips. I have known men with narrow shoulders. I’ve known women that were stronger than me (and might still be), and I’ve known women with shoulders wider than their hips. Christine Mboma was banned from running the 400m (which she set a record to at the Olympics) because her testosterone levels are naturally too high, and she is not the only athlete that happened to. So what was lemonkemon saying? I honestly have no idea, because one can point to all the averages they want, they remain statistical. Specifically I genuinely don’t understand how they can make all these claims relying on averages and then conclude “The point of sports is to reward … pinnacle of human achievement”. We’re looking for people that are not average then.
If I should take some of their arguments and examine them, however, and also refrain from sarcastically saying [citation needed] for every one of them:
In which disciplines? 5% body fat is ridiculously low, it’s dangerous and unhealthy (but might be done all the same especially in bodybuilding competitions), and I know that already because I do powerlifting. There is also no indication here that trans athletes don’t see the same body fat percentages happen to them – they likely do, because of hormone therapy, but that was for lemonkemon to prove. But I would say athletes are thin in most sports, not that they have low body fat percentages. These are two different things and a pretty bad start to establish authority for a scientific argument.
I decided to look this up specifically and did not find anything that would support this statement, no matter the keywords I tried. But I did find this study: https://news.umich.edu/throw-like-a-girl-no-he-or-she-just-hasnt-been-taught/. They claim that girls are not taught the same motor skills as boys and point out that boys usually spend more time in the field than girls, which to them explains the difference.
One study is not enough to prove anything so at this point the best we can say is that we need further research before making conclusions.
I’m not sure what they’re trying to say here. Allyson Felix is not the world record holder in this category, and she took home the bronze medal in the last Tokyo Olympics. Her record puts her at the 26th place with a time of 49.26 (worldwide), with Marita Koch being 1st since 1957 (East Germany 💪) with a time of 47.60. So I’m genuinely confused why they picked Allyson and not the world record holder because the argument would still hold water.
You’re right that we need to base our thinking on materialism, but that materialism has to be dialectical or it’s, plainly, worth nothing. What does it mean, in concrete terms, in practical social life, that women have wider hips? That’s the difference between their metaphysical materialism and dialectical materialism. Is this what is preventing them from achieving high records? Not sure. At that point in time, lemonkemon was extrapolating data and delving into vulgar materialism. This culminated in them posting the map of LGBT Rights (an outdated map too) and comparing it to NATO. Correlation does not equal causation.
Your argument seems to be based mainly on anecdotal evidence, and ignorance of biology. Lets look at some facts instead, like world records in athletics. You can clearly see that women’s records are significantly lower than men’s records. Sure we can argue what the reasons for that are, but the fact remains. And so its no surprise that some third rate male athlete can compete at much higher levels against women, which is exactly the problem that this thread is discussing.
I think it is really wrong to ban someone for a difference in opinion, especially as that opinion was well explained and based on facts.
I didn’t make the ban, and the user made their opinions clear later on with several examples, e.g. “trans ideology” in their last comment. This is not a difference of opinion, there was actionable content there – it goes directly against rule 2 of the instance.
Sorry i mixed it up. But i dont really agree with that rule, it is far too broad so it prevents any discussion of the topic.
What type of discussion? What don’t you agree with the rule?
The discussion we are having here. @LemonKemon@lemmygrad.ml was banned for explaining that there are biological differences between women, and men who change gender to become women. How can we have a useful discussion of the topic if mentioning actual facts is forbidden under the rule?
How can you ignore the context? He wasn’t banned for mentioning “actual facts”, he was banned for being transphobic. In his other comments, he associated LGBT people with pedophilia and “trans ideology”, and shared a random sourceless map created in mapchart website to prove his point. His map was also inaccurate and even false, claiming China allows discrimination of LGBT people, where in reality China even has a multidisciplinary health clinic for transgender children.
Refer to CriticalResist’s comment on the specific issues of his comment. He was using (unverified) data on the average sexual differences in humans, but athletes are not average, nor they are supposed to be. In fact, the opposite, athletes are supposed to be way above average.
But outside the abstract average, there are huge differences between men and between women themselves. What’s more important is that no matter your biological tendencies, what makes an athlete stand out is hard work and practice. The reason why some trans women won some competitions is because they have worked hard for it. These “useful discussions” usually ignore these “actual facts”. Because being born with testicles does not automatically mean you have an advantage, because again, what makes an athlete is hard work, not their sexual gonads. I can safely say that 99% of cis male athlete swimmers will not achieve the female world record for the 100m free in their lifetimes, even though the male record is higher. Saying that trans women should not be allowed on sports according to their gender identity because those born with testicles have “an evolutionary advantage” is not only transphobic but also male chauvinism.
The article you sent mentions a woman who is protesting against the inclusion of transgender in sports. That same woman was invited by PragerU to talk about this issue. Is it so hard for you to see that this argument is usually parroted by reactionaries?
You do know that some institutions require trans women in sports to take hormones so that they’re on the same level as cis women, right? And that the use of these hormones affects their performance negatively, yet they are required to use it anyways?
In any case, a “third rate male athlete” wouldn’t be able to compete as easily against highly trained cis women. Most of the performance you see in sports are related to the training, practice, they do before they perform. These are years and years of supervised training. No one is ever born an athlete, their years of practice makes their performance better, not their hormones alone.
The main difference between men and women isnt in the amount of some hormones, but in the changes that occur during puberty. At that time, major changes occur in the body of women, to allow them to give birth. Compared to men, they store more fat, build up less muscle, have softer bones and wider hips. All of those are disadvantages in sports, and an adult man will retain them even after hormone therapy.
Here is an article which explains this in more detail than I could
No it doesn’t. Do you consider the womens fastest runner “average” because men break that record upwards of 15000 times a year?
Cringe, groping at straws to justify a massive evolutionary advantage in men so I’ll just repeat what I already typed.
A comparable female athlete would have 65% less strength in her legs and 90% less strength in her arms
Lmao imagine calling yourself a communist and typing this out. You might want to reread some of the stats I provided. This would be the end of womens sports. Another real life example which you can go ahead and ignore and erase women from existing because “actually womanhood is a universal category anyone, especially men, can join”:
In 1998, Serena and Venus Williams threw down a challenge: that either of them could beat any male tennis player ranked 200th or below. Karsten Braasch, then ranked 203rd, took them up on it. He prepared with ‘a leisurely round of golf in the morning followed by a couple of shandies’, he wrote afterwards. He beat Serena in a single set 6–1, and then Venus 6–2. In 2020, when Andy Murray suggested an exhibition match against her, Serena refused, saying: ‘I would lose 6–0, 6–0 in five to six minutes, maybe ten minutes . . . the men are a lot faster and they serve harder; they hit harder. It’s just a different game.’
TIL that modifying you weight slightly before a weigh in is the same as a heavy weight boxer fighting a fly weight. Lets abolish those categories too. The flys should fight heavys
Lmao you came out and said it. Lets have able bodied people in the paraolympics, abolish age categorys for different sports
Wonderful. No girl would ever take up sport again if that were the case. Sports would be utterly dominated by men. a 203rd ranked Tennis player can thrash 2 of the top womens tennis players.
Instead of 2 icons from my childhood they’d probably be ranked number 260/261 behind 259 men
Why would any girl or woman ever take up sports again?
Exactly bruv. But at least I provided a solution, and you didn’t lol.
The stupidpol is leaking from every word you type, you guys have such a distinct way of typing.
Na the solution is you dont get to compete if you’re a male in womens categories due to the ridiculous advantage
I’m so glad communists like you are not in parties, have no influence amongst the masses and remain disconnected armchair philosophers in academia 🤣
Imagine thinking being transphobic in 2022 in the west is how you build influence with the masses.
Unless you’re from terf island ig.
lay this map over Nato and NATOs “partner” nations and let me know what it tells you about the nature of deranged Western theories on sex spread by pedophiles like John Money (the father of modern trans ideology) and their relation to mass consumer culture and imperialism
are you bri’ish?