There are so, so many different reasons someone, regardless of gender, could have trouble connecting with others intimately, and I think it’s genuinely difficult to tell why from both the outside and the inside of the problem. From my limited vantage point though, I think I can identify 3 obvious, broad categories of barrier to people:
First, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that there are not many places to try to pick someone up. Under the old social codes, men could be expected to court women almost anywhere, and women were expected to sit and be pretty if that’s what they wanted. This situation sucked absolute ass, especially for women. The question of what, exactly, ought to replace it has not been satisfactorily answered, and the solution the free market gave us, dating apps, is actively hostile to users of all genders. Venues like bars, social clubs, parties, are all imperfect at best. For a while it used to be normal to try to play matchmaker with your friends, and personally I think we should bring that one back.
Second, dating is scary, and the vulnerability of approaching a stranger can be so overwhelming that it scares people off from actually trying. It’s pretty obvious in retrospect, but this is what is happening to people who never ask anyone out yet are convinced no one wants them. Man, woman, or wiley jackal, you gotta accept that this fear is universal, and you only help yourself by overcoming it.
Third, the preferred explanation of the “incel,” is that some people are disadvantaged in the “sexual marketplace.” I’m not convinced this is either universal, or caused by minute difference in skeletal structure, but certain features, including weight, disability, race and height, do present real, but not insurmountable barriers to love. Certain other things like hygiene, grooming, fashion, and conversational ability are just as damaging, but can be improved upon with time and effort. Conversational and interpersonal skills especially are a problem for a lot of people we find on the internet. No matter how autistic you are, I believe this is something that can be improved with practice and experience in a variety of situations both romantic and friendly.
but certain features, including weight, disability, race and height, do present real, but not insurmountable barriers to love.
Yeah this is what a lot on the left ignore, because it’s still totally acceptable to have “preferences” when it comes to dating (i.e. “I just happen to NOT PREFER black guys” etc). And it sucks because not dealing with it leads these men down the right-wing path (see the skit in the timestamp here and watch for maybe 5 min): https://youtu.be/be_Ms3nVG10?si=YuPWXVUSQfGspdiF (@15:58). And contrary to popular belief, many incels are actually not white.
I see you’ve posted this video a couple times in this thread, and I’ve actually seen this skit linked in a previous iteration of this particular discussion on Hexbear some weeks back. This is a regular discussion topic, probably because hexbears have weird political beliefs and posters don’t get laid or whatever. It’s definitely not ignored.
I don’t think it’s acceptable to have these kinds of preferences. If one of my lib friends were to say “I just happen to not prefer black guys” at a cocktail night, they would get a table of raised eyebrows. From a leftist friend I have heard good thoughts about sexual preferences: although you might find yourself attracted to certain kinds of people, you can recognize how that is informed by racist, cisnormative, fatphobic, etc. social influences, and because attraction is mutable (as anyone in an LTR knows) you do kinda have a responsibility to try and change that. Women skew left compared to men. So among most women, such preferences are a dirty secret if they even have them.
and I’ve actually seen this skit linked in a previous iteration of this particular discussion on Hexbear some weeks back.
It was probably me that posted it: https://hexbear.net/post/613122. That thread got basically crickets as engagement compared to other threads. I’ve also referenced that thread in other threads. So as far as I know, apart from me very few seem to actually give a shit about this issue.
It’s definitely not ignored.
I kinda disagree. This thread is an oddity when usually threads barely reach 25 comments. Whereas if I were to post a thread that asked “is it socialist to sit down while peeing?” I’m guessing it might get 300+ comments. It’s not just male loneliness threads, but threads that ask what to actually do with regards to society, revolution, etc. Those threads might barely reach 50 comments while threads about pig poop balls get like hundreds of comments. It just makes me realize that very few on hexbear are actually serious about anything. They just have strong political beliefs but nothing real to back them up. The very definition of “online left,” so I guess I’m really not doing anything more here than just circlejerking I guess…
So among most women, such preferences are a dirty secret if they even have them.
It’s just frustrating to see someone who claims to think black lives matter, stop asian hate, etc. only end up dating run of the mill white guys and be completely oblivious about it… smh
If one of my lib friends were to say “I just happen to not prefer black guys” at a cocktail night, they would get a table of raised eyebrows.
That’s the thing, they would never say it, but their actions would speak louder than 1000 sirens, e.g. their actual dating history and who they “just happen” to end up with.
Meta level: I hate these reddit type comments where each person picks out a number of things in the previous response and goes through them one-by-one.
Your top-level post isn’t the one I am thinking of, it was a comment in a big struggle session. Hexbear talks about this sphere of problems quite often; a dating post gets around a hundred upvotes and comments at least once a week (1234 etc). Since Hexbears are Chapo emigres and Chapo posters were selected from Reddit demographic, there’s a lot of nerdy young men here who have opinions about modern dating. I’m one of them.
Yes, there are lots of racist liberals. That sucks but it shouldn’t be a surprise to any kind of leftist. Do note though, that not every person with a history of dating a certain kind of person is doing so because of (un)conscious racial biases. Many people live, study, and work in segregated places because of structural causes. Many people date classmates, neighbors, and coworkers, who are coming from these unfortunately pre-filtered pools. Your friend who has gone on a hundred Tinder dates but never with a black guy? Probably racist. Your friend who dated a high school sweetheart and married her college boyfriend? Not enough evidence. This social bubble filtering is not just racial but along class, politlcal, etc. lines and has implications for political organizing.
They just have strong political beliefs but nothing real to back them up
I was confused by this and assumed you were trying to say that hexbears aren’t doing praxis. I think you are trying to accuse hexbears of not having a coherent political theory, so rather than arriving at political beliefs like anti-Zionism from first principles they’re just kind of doing what’s popular? If I’m understanding this correctly you’re quite wrong. If Marx reincarnated was browsing this board he still might not give a shit about lonely American men. As I pointed out earlier, factually posters here do care about lonely men (probably since many of them are lonely men), but it’s certainly possible for people to have serious, coherent political belief systems that just do not prioritize the issue. For instance,
A third-worldist might argue that first-world workers, who materially benefit from superprofits, have no revolutionary potential. It’s more important to focus on aiding organized workers in the imperial periphery.
A feminist might argue that sexism primarily benefits bourgeois men but also provides significant benefits to all men. Men’s loneliness is an unfortunate byproduct of male oppression of women, but even this will not convince men to give up sexism en masse because they materially benefit from sexism. Women’s liberation will ultimately come from women; it’s better to organize women rather than spend time on the ultimately dead-end effort to get men to betray sexism.
As I pointed out earlier, factually posters here do care about lonely men
Yeah I’m just not buying it, especially since there was a sticked post (above all other posts, for the better part of TWO WHOLE DAYS) about the Bell Hooks book and it only received 35 comments: https://hexbear.net/post/1147813?scrollToComments=false. For comparison, my post about raking leaves had 28 comments: https://hexbear.net/post/1123921. And a post about herbal cigarettes gets 17 comments.
So yeah, when people say “bUt ThE lEfT dOeS cArE aBoUt LoNeLy MeN!!!” I feel like I’m being gaslighted by like an entire galaxy worth of gaslights… At this point if the right starts recruiting legions of lonely men and they become fascists, then what else can I say except “I told you so.” That’s on the left for failing to engage with them in a real, meaningful way instead of just telling them “READ BELL HOOKS!” Like bro this is 2023, if you wanna engage someone you can’t just tell them to read a book, it’s almost insulting and sounds very elitist. You gotta make youtube videos, tiktoks, etc. Make it short but impactful, as well as engaging. If they want to learn more then they’ll start reading “deeper” stuff.
the left doesn’t care about lonely men because there weren’t enough comments on the Will to Change reading group post
the left isn’t engaging with lonely men because telling them to read Bell Hooks is not good outreach
2: Hexbear dot net is obviously not an effective way for leftists to reach out to general population. This is an internal leftist forum, it’s not Youtube Shorts showing up in people’s feeds. Federation brings some confused liberals and conservatives in, but most users are communist. When people advocate here they are trying to get other leftists to learn more or develop politically. For instance I read Feinberg’s Trans Liberation after adding it to my list; I already supported the trans struggle but it gave me some understanding of its historical development. I forget if it there was a reading group for it or if I saw it on the trans subreddit sidebar, but it was on my list for maybe a year before I got to it.
1: The Bell Hooks sticky seems like a reasonable amount of engagement for a book club to me (and it demonstrates organizational buy-in via sticky, and general interest via upvote count). Even people who are interested in the topic may not have the time to read a book right then. Every one of those commenters read the book or (/u/moondog) was committing to do so. Bigger barrier to entry than a PBS article on raking leaves, no? I am attempting to join Socialist Alternative, which is a cadre organization, and one of their commitments is doing some reading to show up once a week for political discussion and development. If I join that’ll certainly be a big deal for me. Working people are busy.
I’ll be frank with you: if you want the normal internet debate goal of convincing others and developing the discourse, bumping month-old posts won’t do it. I don’t expect (or particularly care to) change your individual mind, and you’re not changing mine. So let’s cut it here. I think it’s good that you’re agitating to solve what you see as deficiencies in the left movement instead of just accepting them. Perhaps the next step is to get some people together who are interested in developing solutions?
There are so, so many different reasons someone, regardless of gender, could have trouble connecting with others intimately, and I think it’s genuinely difficult to tell why from both the outside and the inside of the problem. From my limited vantage point though, I think I can identify 3 obvious, broad categories of barrier to people:
First, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that there are not many places to try to pick someone up. Under the old social codes, men could be expected to court women almost anywhere, and women were expected to sit and be pretty if that’s what they wanted. This situation sucked absolute ass, especially for women. The question of what, exactly, ought to replace it has not been satisfactorily answered, and the solution the free market gave us, dating apps, is actively hostile to users of all genders. Venues like bars, social clubs, parties, are all imperfect at best. For a while it used to be normal to try to play matchmaker with your friends, and personally I think we should bring that one back.
Second, dating is scary, and the vulnerability of approaching a stranger can be so overwhelming that it scares people off from actually trying. It’s pretty obvious in retrospect, but this is what is happening to people who never ask anyone out yet are convinced no one wants them. Man, woman, or wiley jackal, you gotta accept that this fear is universal, and you only help yourself by overcoming it.
Third, the preferred explanation of the “incel,” is that some people are disadvantaged in the “sexual marketplace.” I’m not convinced this is either universal, or caused by minute difference in skeletal structure, but certain features, including weight, disability, race and height, do present real, but not insurmountable barriers to love. Certain other things like hygiene, grooming, fashion, and conversational ability are just as damaging, but can be improved upon with time and effort. Conversational and interpersonal skills especially are a problem for a lot of people we find on the internet. No matter how autistic you are, I believe this is something that can be improved with practice and experience in a variety of situations both romantic and friendly.
Yeah this is what a lot on the left ignore, because it’s still totally acceptable to have “preferences” when it comes to dating (i.e. “I just happen to NOT PREFER black guys” etc). And it sucks because not dealing with it leads these men down the right-wing path (see the skit in the timestamp here and watch for maybe 5 min): https://youtu.be/be_Ms3nVG10?si=YuPWXVUSQfGspdiF (@15:58). And contrary to popular belief, many incels are actually not white.
Gently pushing back on this.
I see you’ve posted this video a couple times in this thread, and I’ve actually seen this skit linked in a previous iteration of this particular discussion on Hexbear some weeks back. This is a regular discussion topic, probably because hexbears have weird political beliefs and posters don’t get laid or whatever. It’s definitely not ignored.
I don’t think it’s acceptable to have these kinds of preferences. If one of my lib friends were to say “I just happen to not prefer black guys” at a cocktail night, they would get a table of raised eyebrows. From a leftist friend I have heard good thoughts about sexual preferences: although you might find yourself attracted to certain kinds of people, you can recognize how that is informed by racist, cisnormative, fatphobic, etc. social influences, and because attraction is mutable (as anyone in an LTR knows) you do kinda have a responsibility to try and change that. Women skew left compared to men. So among most women, such preferences are a dirty secret if they even have them.
It was probably me that posted it: https://hexbear.net/post/613122. That thread got basically crickets as engagement compared to other threads. I’ve also referenced that thread in other threads. So as far as I know, apart from me very few seem to actually give a shit about this issue.
I kinda disagree. This thread is an oddity when usually threads barely reach 25 comments. Whereas if I were to post a thread that asked “is it socialist to sit down while peeing?” I’m guessing it might get 300+ comments. It’s not just male loneliness threads, but threads that ask what to actually do with regards to society, revolution, etc. Those threads might barely reach 50 comments while threads about pig poop balls get like hundreds of comments. It just makes me realize that very few on hexbear are actually serious about anything. They just have strong political beliefs but nothing real to back them up. The very definition of “online left,” so I guess I’m really not doing anything more here than just circlejerking I guess…
It’s just frustrating to see someone who claims to think black lives matter, stop asian hate, etc. only end up dating run of the mill white guys and be completely oblivious about it… smh
That’s the thing, they would never say it, but their actions would speak louder than 1000 sirens, e.g. their actual dating history and who they “just happen” to end up with.
Meta level: I hate these reddit type comments where each person picks out a number of things in the previous response and goes through them one-by-one.
Your top-level post isn’t the one I am thinking of, it was a comment in a big struggle session. Hexbear talks about this sphere of problems quite often; a dating post gets around a hundred upvotes and comments at least once a week (1 2 3 4 etc). Since Hexbears are Chapo emigres and Chapo posters were selected from Reddit demographic, there’s a lot of nerdy young men here who have opinions about modern dating. I’m one of them.
Yes, there are lots of racist liberals. That sucks but it shouldn’t be a surprise to any kind of leftist. Do note though, that not every person with a history of dating a certain kind of person is doing so because of (un)conscious racial biases. Many people live, study, and work in segregated places because of structural causes. Many people date classmates, neighbors, and coworkers, who are coming from these unfortunately pre-filtered pools. Your friend who has gone on a hundred Tinder dates but never with a black guy? Probably racist. Your friend who dated a high school sweetheart and married her college boyfriend? Not enough evidence. This social bubble filtering is not just racial but along class, politlcal, etc. lines and has implications for political organizing.
I was confused by this and assumed you were trying to say that hexbears aren’t doing praxis. I think you are trying to accuse hexbears of not having a coherent political theory, so rather than arriving at political beliefs like anti-Zionism from first principles they’re just kind of doing what’s popular? If I’m understanding this correctly you’re quite wrong. If Marx reincarnated was browsing this board he still might not give a shit about lonely American men. As I pointed out earlier, factually posters here do care about lonely men (probably since many of them are lonely men), but it’s certainly possible for people to have serious, coherent political belief systems that just do not prioritize the issue. For instance,
Yeah I’m just not buying it, especially since there was a sticked post (above all other posts, for the better part of TWO WHOLE DAYS) about the Bell Hooks book and it only received 35 comments: https://hexbear.net/post/1147813?scrollToComments=false. For comparison, my post about raking leaves had 28 comments: https://hexbear.net/post/1123921. And a post about herbal cigarettes gets 17 comments.
So yeah, when people say “bUt ThE lEfT dOeS cArE aBoUt LoNeLy MeN!!!” I feel like I’m being gaslighted by like an entire galaxy worth of gaslights… At this point if the right starts recruiting legions of lonely men and they become fascists, then what else can I say except “I told you so.” That’s on the left for failing to engage with them in a real, meaningful way instead of just telling them “READ BELL HOOKS!” Like bro this is 2023, if you wanna engage someone you can’t just tell them to read a book, it’s almost insulting and sounds very elitist. You gotta make youtube videos, tiktoks, etc. Make it short but impactful, as well as engaging. If they want to learn more then they’ll start reading “deeper” stuff.
so you have two objections:
2: Hexbear dot net is obviously not an effective way for leftists to reach out to general population. This is an internal leftist forum, it’s not Youtube Shorts showing up in people’s feeds. Federation brings some confused liberals and conservatives in, but most users are communist. When people advocate here they are trying to get other leftists to learn more or develop politically. For instance I read Feinberg’s Trans Liberation after adding it to my list; I already supported the trans struggle but it gave me some understanding of its historical development. I forget if it there was a reading group for it or if I saw it on the trans subreddit sidebar, but it was on my list for maybe a year before I got to it.
1: The Bell Hooks sticky seems like a reasonable amount of engagement for a book club to me (and it demonstrates organizational buy-in via sticky, and general interest via upvote count). Even people who are interested in the topic may not have the time to read a book right then. Every one of those commenters read the book or (/u/moondog) was committing to do so. Bigger barrier to entry than a PBS article on raking leaves, no? I am attempting to join Socialist Alternative, which is a cadre organization, and one of their commitments is doing some reading to show up once a week for political discussion and development. If I join that’ll certainly be a big deal for me. Working people are busy.
I’ll be frank with you: if you want the normal internet debate goal of convincing others and developing the discourse, bumping month-old posts won’t do it. I don’t expect (or particularly care to) change your individual mind, and you’re not changing mine. So let’s cut it here. I think it’s good that you’re agitating to solve what you see as deficiencies in the left movement instead of just accepting them. Perhaps the next step is to get some people together who are interested in developing solutions?
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: