My point on the comparison wasn’t that that they’re 1:1, but more so when a market does crazy stuff in a speculative frenzy there’s things that potentially have legitimate value and things that don’t. Comparing potentially good projects to obvious BS isn’t really a a good way to debate the value or lack of.
As for unlicensed banks, yeah probably an imperfect comparison, but not entirely irrelevant IMO. Something like Coinbase (that does have licenses BTW) is probably a lot less likely to go bust than some shady exchange based in the Bahamas. Now, as a counter point ftx probably had the appropriate licenses for their US based front, but then just funneled that elsewhere right.
And sure, they were one of the biggest, but back to my original point: in a crazy speculative bubble the scams and legitimate projects all have to be evaluated individually.
Speaking of banks though, its kinda hilarious you brought up Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo and Deutsche Bank. Last I checked two of the three were kinda involved in a pretty big thing known as the 2008 financial crises and would have collapsed had they not been bailed out. Their executives aren’t in prison, but many people believed they should be.
Finally criminal useage is valid criticism, but Monero is not the first thing to be used to transfer illicit funds. Cartels, hitmen, and people who kidnap children for ransom all seem to like cash (well, that and the banks, some of which have a horrendously bad record of transferring illicit funds). If you were to convince me that Monero is making the world a way worse off place then maybe you’d change myind, but right now as it stands it appears a small percentage of criminals find Monero slightly easier than cash and are using it because it’s the path of least resistance. Last I checked, the drug trade, computer hacking, and any other active criminal enterprise existed before the use of Monero.
My point is there isn’t any other usage to it. People won’t use Monero for buying their groceries or online shopping, but its nature lends itself to being used to commit crimes. Cash at the very least has serial numbers - you could possibly track that.
The reasons why it isn’t suitable to be used as a currency are exactly what I listed, and you failed to interrogate: volatility, lack of consumer protections, anonymity for wrongdoers, extremely high transaction fees and energy usage, consensus protocols favoring big money and the inability to perform even a basic rollback without splitting the entire economy of your chain in twain.
With e-commerce, you could have someone send you some coins and then not deliver the product. What are they gonna do, get a non-existent chargeback?
As a person who has been buying my groceries with Monero for almost a year, I must dispute that. Is Monero less stable than the US dollar, sure. However, compared to a lot of crypto Monero is quite stable because it has real world use and extremely low transaction fees. monero is also quite stable when compared to (admittidly bad) fiat currencies such as the argentenian peso.
The reasons why it isn’t suitable to be used as a currency are exactly what I listed, and you failed to interrogate …
My original point I meant to make was just that your first argument, XMR = bad because NFTs/FTX/Luna was either that you didn’t understand the differences of them, or that you did and were presenting a disingenuous argument.
The other points are more of a come to your own conclusions type of deal. But, if we’re on the topic:
Volatility? I’d point out that, yes, it’s volital like every other thing that’s new. It’ll figure out a stable price (what price that’ll be, or if it’ll be 0, I can’t say). New tech and volital speculative markets and all that, churning out crap and jems alike.
Anonymity, consumer protections, & no transaction reverses? Again, cash, see what my take on it is above. + If tracking serial numbers stopped crime they’d be doing that already.
Energy useage? Yup, there’s a lot, and that’s a good criticism. But as these things grow there’s work towards more efficient models. Also, it’s not like everything else (from mining gold to making a PlayStation) uses energy in an often inefficient way.
No use as a currency? There’s already a growing amount of using it as a currency. A lot of people are talking about the “Monero circular economy” with the idea being a community both earning and spending Monero amongst themselves. There’s also a surprisingly large amount of merchants accepting Monero compared to a few years ago, and a large number of crypto services (including Monero) that offer a middleman type service to allow you to spend XMR and have a business get fiat.
Addendum: to elaborate on eccommerce a bit more, last I checked it’s a good idea to buy from trusted platforms. What’s to stop food I buy from being contaminated with lead? Buying that 80 cent box of pankake mix from wish is just probably a bad idea. So is entering your credit card details and social security number on totallynotascam(dot)legit that you got spam emails about.
Beyond that, though, it’s not like Monero existing makes credit cards not exist. Any danger to the user isn’t really an argument against something existing if the user chooses to use it.
Political statement? Ease of use? Social experiment? Ideological preference? Spending crypto you were paid in? A stand in until more merchants accept Monero directly? For no reason, but it’s not hurting anybody and it’s not illegal so why not?
My point on the comparison wasn’t that that they’re 1:1, but more so when a market does crazy stuff in a speculative frenzy there’s things that potentially have legitimate value and things that don’t. Comparing potentially good projects to obvious BS isn’t really a a good way to debate the value or lack of.
As for unlicensed banks, yeah probably an imperfect comparison, but not entirely irrelevant IMO. Something like Coinbase (that does have licenses BTW) is probably a lot less likely to go bust than some shady exchange based in the Bahamas. Now, as a counter point ftx probably had the appropriate licenses for their US based front, but then just funneled that elsewhere right.
And sure, they were one of the biggest, but back to my original point: in a crazy speculative bubble the scams and legitimate projects all have to be evaluated individually.
Speaking of banks though, its kinda hilarious you brought up Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo and Deutsche Bank. Last I checked two of the three were kinda involved in a pretty big thing known as the 2008 financial crises and would have collapsed had they not been bailed out. Their executives aren’t in prison, but many people believed they should be.
Finally criminal useage is valid criticism, but Monero is not the first thing to be used to transfer illicit funds. Cartels, hitmen, and people who kidnap children for ransom all seem to like cash (well, that and the banks, some of which have a horrendously bad record of transferring illicit funds). If you were to convince me that Monero is making the world a way worse off place then maybe you’d change myind, but right now as it stands it appears a small percentage of criminals find Monero slightly easier than cash and are using it because it’s the path of least resistance. Last I checked, the drug trade, computer hacking, and any other active criminal enterprise existed before the use of Monero.
My point is there isn’t any other usage to it. People won’t use Monero for buying their groceries or online shopping, but its nature lends itself to being used to commit crimes. Cash at the very least has serial numbers - you could possibly track that.
The reasons why it isn’t suitable to be used as a currency are exactly what I listed, and you failed to interrogate: volatility, lack of consumer protections, anonymity for wrongdoers, extremely high transaction fees and energy usage, consensus protocols favoring big money and the inability to perform even a basic rollback without splitting the entire economy of your chain in twain.
With e-commerce, you could have someone send you some coins and then not deliver the product. What are they gonna do, get a non-existent chargeback?
As a person who has been buying my groceries with Monero for almost a year, I must dispute that. Is Monero less stable than the US dollar, sure. However, compared to a lot of crypto Monero is quite stable because it has real world use and extremely low transaction fees. monero is also quite stable when compared to (admittidly bad) fiat currencies such as the argentenian peso.
Where are you buying your groceries in Monero? If it’s available where I am, I’d like to get in on that.
For now Instacart via Coinsbee
My original point I meant to make was just that your first argument, XMR = bad because NFTs/FTX/Luna was either that you didn’t understand the differences of them, or that you did and were presenting a disingenuous argument.
The other points are more of a come to your own conclusions type of deal. But, if we’re on the topic:
Volatility? I’d point out that, yes, it’s volital like every other thing that’s new. It’ll figure out a stable price (what price that’ll be, or if it’ll be 0, I can’t say). New tech and volital speculative markets and all that, churning out crap and jems alike.
Anonymity, consumer protections, & no transaction reverses? Again, cash, see what my take on it is above. + If tracking serial numbers stopped crime they’d be doing that already.
Energy useage? Yup, there’s a lot, and that’s a good criticism. But as these things grow there’s work towards more efficient models. Also, it’s not like everything else (from mining gold to making a PlayStation) uses energy in an often inefficient way.
No use as a currency? There’s already a growing amount of using it as a currency. A lot of people are talking about the “Monero circular economy” with the idea being a community both earning and spending Monero amongst themselves. There’s also a surprisingly large amount of merchants accepting Monero compared to a few years ago, and a large number of crypto services (including Monero) that offer a middleman type service to allow you to spend XMR and have a business get fiat.
Addendum: to elaborate on eccommerce a bit more, last I checked it’s a good idea to buy from trusted platforms. What’s to stop food I buy from being contaminated with lead? Buying that 80 cent box of pankake mix from wish is just probably a bad idea. So is entering your credit card details and social security number on totallynotascam(dot)legit that you got spam emails about.
Beyond that, though, it’s not like Monero existing makes credit cards not exist. Any danger to the user isn’t really an argument against something existing if the user chooses to use it.
So you buy Monero with fiat, just to convert that Monero to fiat again, so the vendor can receive fiat? What for?
Political statement? Ease of use? Social experiment? Ideological preference? Spending crypto you were paid in? A stand in until more merchants accept Monero directly? For no reason, but it’s not hurting anybody and it’s not illegal so why not?
Pick any of the above.