• t_jpeg@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I bet you feel enlightened with your centrist take.

    I don’t know if you realise but people can acknowledge that Hamas did bad things to civilians as well as Israel. The difference is some people can also acknowledge that the only reason Hamas exists is because Israel is a settler colonial state. Without Israel’s crimes against humanity, there would be no need for Hamas to exist. People also have the ability to recognise the western media’s attempt to falsely equivocate “both sides” when one is a genocidal attempt at an ethnostate backed by the most powerful nation the world has ever seen (and friends) and the other is a reaction to this.

    “For forty years you try to strangle us. And then you criticize us for the way we breathe” ~ Fidel Castro.

    • FierroGamer@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Enlightened? Because I said I hate that people are using genocide as an excuse to take one of two sides? The situation isn’t even encompassed in two sides, the country, the government and the people (and in the case of Palestine, also Hamas) are being treated as one monolithic beings with one agreeing mind each when they are not.

      I’m sorry if your “if you’re not with me, you’re against me, here’s a quote from a historical figure” routine didn’t pressure me into trivializing crimes against humanity.

      Edit: I’d like to point out how I’ve been called centrist for acknowledging there aren’t two sides and this isn’t a sport event deserving of fans.

      • dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 year ago

        Who is supporting Hamas? People have to be supporting Hamas for your original comment to be valid. The vast majority of people are clamoring for ceasefires and humanitarian pauses so that the Palestinian children can stop being murdered.

      • t_jpeg@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        It’s conversations like this that confuse me because who exactly is commiting genocide? I’m calling the take centrist because you’re making out as if both sides are guilty of genocide when it literally is only one side (the government of Israel, the organisation that the original post refers to). It is a false equivalence. But if you think by me stating support for the liberation of indigenous Palestinians is making it a team sport where I’m somehow trivializing genocide then so be it, that’s what you think.

        • samus12345@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Hamas’s goal is the destruction of Israel through terrorism. The only thing keeping them from committing genocide (as Israel is capable of) is not having the resources to do so. Both sides want to eradicate the other, but one side is much more capable of doing so. That doesn’t mean that Hamas is somehow less bad.

          • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Hamas’s goal is to end the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians. There is nothing genocidal about this.

            There are Christians living in Gaza and Hamas isn’t committing some crazy religious cleansing on them either. Their problem is with Zionist oppression.

              • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Resisting an oppressive fascist ethno-state trying to colonize your land and murder your population is the opposite of genocide.

                What you’re saying is like saying Ukrainians fighting against Russia for their freedom is Genocide.

                  • Historical_General@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    Mate, Palestinians just happen to exist and want to thrive. Stop ascribing some violent fantasy that never was to those poor people.

                  • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Are you saying Palestinians appeared from thin air to fight against your holy israelis who were living on that land for 2000 years?

                    I thought Russians hating on Ukraine were brainwashed. Sad to see people here on the same level of rethoric.

          • t_jpeg@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            If a 16th century Native American wanted to destroy the government of the United States of America, would you say they were wrong?

            Hamas’ blatant anti-semitism towards all ethnic jews is wrong. Hamas’ desire for Israel to not be a nation anymore is justified.

            • zaph@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              If a 16th century Native American wanted to destroy the government of the United States of America, would you say they were wrong?

              Depends if they attack the government or civilians. Palestine has a right to defend itself, the hamas strategy is not exercising that right just like the idf isn’t exercising their right to defend and instead are committing genocide. That’s the point. Hamas would have my full sympathy and support if their strategy wasn’t terrorism.

              • t_jpeg@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I don’t support Hamas just like you don’t. I don’t support the death of civilians, Israeli or Palestinian. What I have a problem with in the general sentiment of this thread is people acting as if the Israeli government’s actions are not the cause of this war. Hamas would not exist if the Israeli government never oppressed Palestinian people first. The PLO wouldn’t exist if the Israeli government didn’t oppress Palestinian people first. Hamas killing innocent civilians wouldn’t have happened if the Israeli govrnement never tried to genocide Palestinians. You can argue that Hamas would commit genocide if they could, but the fact is Israel is the one commiting genocide at the moment. Making out as if both need equal condemning (although they need condemning nonetheless) is equivalent to giving a bully the same punishment as the victim who fights back. They are simply not the same.

                Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel. But especially fuck Israel.

                • zaph@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  Making out as if both need equal condemning (although they need condemning nonetheless) is equivalent to giving a bully the same punishment as the victim who fights back.

                  If the victim fighting back is a punch to the face, I’d completely agree. But this victim fought back with excessive force and I can’t ignore that either. I do agree that Isreal made their own bed. I’ve been yelling for years that all Israel is doing is recruiting more hamas members.

                • samus12345@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Whatever crimes the Israeli government committed (and there are many), nothing justifies killing civilians who have nothing to do with them, and that goes for both sides. Fuck anyone who murders innocent civilians for any reason.

                • FarmTaco@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  the victim who fights back by… killing completely random innocent children. but i guess the instant that is over, it no longer happened.

            • fosho@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              I’m confused at your tone. it seems like there’s more fundamental agreeing here than disagreeing. yes, one side has more power and has recklessly abused that power. but they both want to destroy each other’s people, including innocent civilians. that’s objectively terrible and is why there is no good side to take.

        • Apollo@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          If conversations like this confuse you, why confidently share your opinions in a public forum on a subject that, by your own admission, confuse you?

    • zaph@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      The definition of a centrist is completely lost on you if you think the comment you’re replying to is a centrist comment.

      • dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 year ago

        It’s literally both sidesing the issue by saying that both sides are equally to blame. The comment intentionally creates a lack of nuance by making it seem like this internet firestorm are Hamas vs IDF supporters.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Hamas was literally formed as a reaction to Israeli war crimes against Palestinians in the 1980’s.

        And of the two they’re the one that publicly showed a moderating trend, only to have their attempts rebuffed in the mid 2000’s.

        They aren’t nice people but understanding how they got where they are clearly tells us to stop supporting Israel.

      • t_jpeg@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Thanks for the info I wanted to access the article but it’s blocked by a paywall/ email submission to view which I’m not too keen on doing. I know Israel had funded Hamas to maintain its own status quo many years ago but wasn’t privy to the possibility it may still be happening. Was wondering if you had any other sources on this?

    • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      There’s literally no disagreement between you two. You’re saying the same as them, but adding a historical context of how we got here. That really doesn’t change condemnation of both nor finding the team sports here disgusting.