hey folks, we’ll be quick and to the point with this one:
we have made the decision to defederate from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. we recognize this is hugely inconvenient for a wide variety of reasons, but we think this is a decision we need to take immediately. the remainder of the post details our thoughts and decision-making on why this is necessary.
we have been concerned with how sustainable the explosion of new users on Lemmy is–particularly with federation in mind–basically since it began. i have already related how difficult dealing with the explosion has been just constrained to this instance for us four Admins, and increasingly we’re being confronted with external vectors we have to deal with that have further stressed our capabilities (elaborated on below).
an unfortunate reality we’ve also found is we just don’t have the tools or the time here to parse out all the good from all the bad. all we have is a nuke and some pretty rudimentary mod powers that don’t scale well. we have a list of improvements we’d like to see both on the moderation side of Lemmy and federation if at all possible–but we’re unanimous in the belief that we can’t wait on what we want to be developed here. separately, we want to do this now, while the band-aid can be ripped off with substantially less pain.
aside from/complementary to what’s mentioned above, our reason for defederating, by and large, boils down to:
- these two instances’ open registration policy, which is extremely problematic for us given how federation works and how trivial it makes trolling, harassment, and other undesirable behavior;
- the disproportionate number of moderator actions we take against users of these two instances, and the general amount of time we have to dedicate to bad actors on those two instances;
- our need to preserve not only a moderated community but a vibe and general feeling this is actually a safe space for our users to participate in;
- and the reality that fulfilling our ethos is simply not possible when we not only have to account for our own users but have to account for literally tens of thousands of new, completely unvetted users, some of whom explicitly see spaces like this as desirable to troll and disrupt and others of whom simply don’t care about what our instance stands for
as Gaywallet puts it, in our discussion of whether to do this:
There’s a lot of soft moderating that happens, where people step in to diffuse tense situations. But it’s not just that, there’s a vibe that comes along with it. Most people need a lot of trust and support to open up, and it’s really hard to trust and support who’s around you when there are bad actors. People shut themselves off in various ways when there’s more hostility around them. They’ll even shut themselves off when there’s fake nice behavior around. There’s a lot of nuance in modding a community like this and it’s not just where we take moderator actions- sometimes people need to step in to diffuse, to negotiate, to help people grow. This only works when everyone is on the same page about our ethos and right now we can’t even assess that for people who aren’t from our instance, so we’re walking a tightrope by trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That isn’t sustainable forever and especially not in the face of massive growth on such a short timeframe.
Explicitly safe spaces in real life typically aren’t open to having strangers walk in off the street, even if they have a bouncer to throw problematic people out. A single negative interaction might require a lot of energy to undo.
and, to reiterate: we understand that a lot of people legitimately and fairly use these instances, and this is going to be painful while it’s in effect. but we hope you can understand why we’re doing this. our words, when we talk about building something better here, are not idle platitudes, and we are not out to build a space that grows at any cost. we want a better space, and we think this is necessary to do that right now. if you disagree we understand that, but we hope you can if nothing else come away with the understanding it was an informed decision.
this is also not a permanent judgement (or a moral one on the part of either community’s owner, i should add–we just have differing interests here and that’s fine). in the future as tools develop, cultures settle, attitudes and interest change, and the wave of newcomers settles down, we’ll reassess whether we feel capable of refederating with these communities.
thanks for using our site folks.
This seems like a bad decision honestly. If lemmy is to have any chance of replacing reddit open registration has to be the standard
we–Beehaw specifically–are not interested in being a replacement to Reddit for an endless number of reasons. if that’s the primary goal people are after (and not just like a secondary motivation or something), they’re already on the wrong instance and there are countless others which they can sign up on to fill the void.
How does that square with beehaw gaining significant numbers of users as part of reddit’s recent migration? They wouldn’t be looking for somewhere to join if they felt like reddit would continue to work for them, and I’d say that automatically makes replacing reddit their primary goal.
Users applying to join this instance need to answer a question about why they want to join this instance in particular. If they didn’t, they didn’t get in. There are several posts about the beehaw instance philosophy on the sidebar, and users are explicitly encouraged to read them before applying. We’re pretty explicit about not trying to be a 1-to-1 replacement for reddit here. If a user is looking for that, they should sign up with an instance that better fits those aims.
I did read them, and I agreed with them just fine, but I still got rejected. It just doesn’t feel necessary to affirm a philosophy when my aim is to just participate in a nice place.
I don’t want a 1-1 reddit replacement. I want something better, which is why I’m trying to replace reddit in the first place.
Unfortunately some people are going to slip through the cracks. It’s an artificially high barrier because we want to do our best to assess for fit with our vision. A barrier of any sort will unfortunately keep even wanted people out but we felt it was a necessary one and one we wanted a bit more control over because of prior experiences with bad actors. We’d rather do more upfront work to ensure good fit than more downstream work of taking out the trash, if that makes any sense.
you are confusing (1) the literal act of replacing Reddit with something new, better, and more positive with (2) transplanting the content and culture of Reddit onto a website that is not Reddit, creating a simulacrum of the experience without the need to browse Reddit at all. these are not the same thing.
many of the people here are looking for the first, and we are interested in those people because they often really believe in the philosophy that underpins this website. many of the people moving to Lemmy generally are looking for the second and don’t care about our philosophy at all–we do not want those people, although they’re welcome to interact with our instance obviously as long as they abide by the rules.
What about the people abiding by the rules who thought lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works would be fine enough instances to sign up with? Feels like throwing out plenty of babies with the bathwater, even if the bathwater was particularly dirty.
ultimately, people are going to get caught in the crossfire of any decision we make here, and our interest will always first go to people on our instance and not others. if people affected are particularly interested they can sign up here, if not they can make peace with not seeing our stuff. it is what it is. i don’t think it’s a big deal either way.
Again, it was a terrible idea to use a federated software if you wanted to have full control of who could and could not interact with your instance. But it’s too late to move Beehaw to use Tildes instead, so why not make the instance require logging in to view content, defederate entirely, and just be its own self-contained thing from now on?
Most if not all federated software provides the tools to do this. Part of the point of federation is the ability to control which servers you do or do not receive interactions from, and it’s a necessary means to limit access to your network by bad actors.
In which case you should default to forbidding every other server, and only accept incoming entries after the server has been vetted as safe. Letting people in with the expectation of this being a public space and then shooing them out when you found out somebody wandered into your terrain is not a good look. Having a fence in the first place and ask for an ID at the entrance is what you probably should have done instead.
Why do you only deal in absolutes? Why must our community adhere to the guidelines and principles as you see them? We respect your voice if you want to participate as a member of a community but you don’t speak for everyone here and it’s not particularly helpful for you to suggest drastic measures because you’re upset with a single decision.
That makes sense
I suppose that that confusion was why my application wasn’t accepted. I wanted something better, but that doesn’t change the fact that it would replace reddit for me. I think I would fit in just fine, agree with the philosophy, and help foster the community you’re trying to build, but trying to be a true believer in any philosophy wouldn’t be my primary motivator. I adapt to where I am.
I think that replacing Reddit as a software and replacing Reddit with a different community/culture are two separate things. People may come to Beehaw seeking to use another link aggregation tool and have another place to build community, but the overall direction of Beehaw is not to provide a 1-to-1 replacement for Reddit’s culture and community - though the software is of similar nature, the community doesn’t necessarily have to be.
I came to Beehaw from Reddit as well during the most recent wave, and I didn’t come here really expecting Beehaw to replace Reddit for anything more than the content format.
Same for me, but my application was still rejected. I wanted something better, but that doesn’t change the fact that it would replace reddit for me.
I personally wouldn’t want to moderate users from instances where there is no standard of decorum. If we are to federate with others there needs to be a baseline expectation from other instances commenting in our communities and vice versa.
I don’t think it should be the goal to replace reddit with lemmy. Reddit was problematic, it’s userbase was generally pretty toxic, and had many issues with it’s structure.
Lemmy is a chance to do things differently