I think it’s a healthy part of the growth of the Fediverse. Maybe it ends up being a good idea, maybe not. Hopefully everyone can keep an open mind and learn some lessons along the way both with successes and failures. Let’s be real, if this is what kills the Fediverse then the Fediverse was doomed from the start.
This is all early days and I’m just enjoying the ride. It’s really just refreshing that it’s not some VC backed mega corp making these decision.
Let them do what they want. The communities you wanna check out will be available elsewhere with time.
What bothers me about this is that the administrators at sh.itjust.works, beehaw.org, and lemmy.world are all being adults about this.
While this Reddit-like stampede is already trying to create an us-vs-them environment.
It’s fine. The adults are adulting. Maybe a bit of Reddit deprogramming is all that is needed for people to become more reasonable.
The us vs them mentality is such a default human reaction, one that you have to actively battle in yourself.
I like the whole idea of federation and I think the more we use the platform the better and more tailored our experiences will be.
It’s a ground up, organic process, and we’re still figuring it out. I think things will naturally develop, because that is how this system is set up.
fr, I just failed that battle not that long ago lol.
I think between removing Reddit from my habits and the positive engagement here I’ll be ripe yet!
Yea I really like it here. I am suspicious of over positivity, but this feels good. So I’m rolling with it.
It is really interesting watching a new community bloom.
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the short of it is beehaw is a selective community that is fairly liberal and expect people to be respectful to each other. That is the alien concept of a lot of reddit refugees and hence beehaw has to leave the larger federation of lemmy/fediverse and that means you won’t be able to see their topics here (say lemmy.world). A lot of people seem to be mad that they’re doing it and saying angry things about it. There is a possibility when they get better mod tools they can return, but for now there is simply not enough mods to control the refugee trolls.
Beehaw.org, a large powerful Lemmy server, has defederated from Lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works in response to a severe harassment campaign involving porn-spam and death threats.
This means beehaw.org users and communities are now cut off from Lemmy.world and vice versa.
The full details are a bit hard to follow, but the TL;DR: Beehaw.org wants a curated community and Lemmy.world doesn’t. Beehaw.org has a tougher sign up process while it’s basically free at Lemmy.world.
But that’s not a big deal or the real drama. People are all looking into the future. /R/piracy has moved into the Fediverse, as have pornographic servers. So now there are discussions on all sorts of topics and what should be or shouldn’t be federated.
That’s fine. The federization model works, but differently than what Redditors are used to. So I think people are confused about how things play out on the Lemmy-community.
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Note that user@programming.dev still can access everything. So yeah, everything is working as expected, much to the surprise of the former Redditors who dont understand federation yet.
To be fair: this is a deeply philosophical issue of open vs closed, federated vs centralized, etc etc that people are touching upon. But this is Lemmy, over there is Reddit. Things will be different, especially how moderators and administrators act.
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undefined>Beehaw.org wants a curated community and Lemmy.world doesn’t. Beehaw.org has a tougher sign up process while it’s basically free at Lemmy.world.
To be fair beehaw seems very different from the joyous anarchic freedom we enjoy here (I’ve been on Lemmy for a week and feel more at home than I ever was on Reddit). No right to create new communities, registration needs approval…
maybe they’ll come back to the federation, maybe they’ll be their own thing. I hope for the former because there is some great content there too.
That sounds so incredibly unappealing lol, I hope they enjoy it!
Eh. To each their own.
I’ve been part of super-tight, highly curated communities before. They’re nice in their own way and a fully different way of running a community than Reddit-style that most are used to.
I think for a lot of (former) Redditors, they come over here on Lemmy.world and see a tightly curated community like Beehaw.org and just get confused. Something like that was simply not possible in Reddit and runs counter to the way popular internet sites (not just Reddit, but Twitter, Facebook, etc. etc.) were run. But this is closer to the BBS days where recruitment was a phone-call and a secret code you found at the gym… back in those days, all communities were tightly curated and Reddit is the aberration.
In any case, Lemmy (and the Fediverse) allows the “freedom” group to interact with the “tight / curation” world, in a… tight controlled manner. Its alien, its unnatural to some, etc. etc. But hey, its Lemmy. That’s how we’re gonna roll.
Reddit refugee here. I chose lemmy.world because it was easy to register on and haven’t had any issues. Losing beehaw will just mean people who want the reddit like experience will move to other instances. Having a great time so far.
Yeah, no problem with a super tight community on a forum. I’m part of places like that, they’re great, we really know each other, some of the people I met there are now some of my closest friends.
I just feel that for place(s) like here, everyone should have the right to choose what content they want (or not) to see in this fast growing network.
It’s pretty easy to sum up. The admins on beehaw decided to break federation with a couple of other instances including lemmy.world. Their reasoning being that the open registration policies and relative lack of oversight in those instances were incompatible with the space they wanted to create on beehaw. What this means is that users from lemmy.world cannot interact with users on beehaw and vice versa.
The technical details of how all this works are a bit more complicated, but that’s the basic gist.
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As a lemmy.world user, will I still be able to lurk beehaw communities? Or will they not be updated on my instance? In other words, is defederation directional or static?
You won’t be able to see untill they refed.
In a way, but the details are complicated enough that I’m a little fuzzy on how it all plays out myself. As I understand it though lemmy.world users would be looking at the version of the beehaw community that is stored on lemmy.world. They can view and even interact with posts and communities as if nothing had changed. However, any content they generate would not leave lemmy.world. Additionally there are details regarding how certain communities start being hosted that I am unsure of.
To add more context, currently Lemmy doesn’t offer great moderation tools. So if a relatively open instance like lemmy.world interacts with beehaw, beehaw ability to shut down the ‘few bad apples’ coming from lemmy.world is rudimentary at best.
At a certain point, admins just can’t keep up and have to make a judgment call. Either accept that trolls and bad actors are going to get through or cut off the source of the infection, regardless of whether or not that impacts regular users.
Beehaw has already stated that they’re open to reconnecting once they have a better way of moderating and dealing with bad actors.
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If they are getting flooded by users of another instance who simply want to troll and they don’t have an effective way of then it’s hard to blame them for taking the action that they did.
The comments I’ve read were mostly about Beehaw users clicking on “All” on the main page and then getting upset that they see content they don’t like.
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I’m hoping that the overall lack of certain systemic encouragements from commercial socials that everyone has become horrifically used to interacting with will squash a lot of this kind of behavior over time. That is, the bullshit no longer serves the algo that doesn’t exist herre, and the lack of positive feedback will either cause them to change their ways or just leave.
I wonder if Lemmy’s upvote system overweights the first few upvotes the way Reddit did. That drove people to make high engagement posts since a sudden flurry of comments on a rage-bait post tended to slingshot stuff to the top reliably. If Lemmy doesn’t do that, it will help. The lack of eyeballs in Lemmyverse should discourage bots to some degree.
I’m hoping the same for Mastodon. A LOT of the behaviors that people have internalized come down to trying to game the algorithm with hot takes and such, but the limited virality of the Mastodon platform will hopefully discourage all their usual bullshit, or they’ll go.
I think the people who just want Reddit will return to it, at least for a while, since Lemmy was just their methadone and the heroin store is back open now. Me, I’ve been peeling away from both Reddit and Twitter for a long time so I’m ready to move on. There was a distinct culture on the Fediverse before all these sudden surges in users, hopefully once things settle that culture will get a chance to assert itself again.
Exactly! I’m new here (from Reddit) it’s very clear that some of us new ppl are getting confused as to why instances are having to defed and are getting upset at the admins.
We are the reason!
The admins are working hard with the extra traffic and increased exposure to content that may not have previously been welcome in their communities.
My fellow Reddit refugees, post and comment on the content you want to see, not the drama and the uncertainty right now. Find your ppl in the new communities and start sharing and conversing like the good old days on Reddit.
Great comment imo
The Reddit deprogramming goes deep, for sure. I still find myself deleting comments here after typing them out because there is a 50/50 chance of getting abuse or arguments from someone for basically anything you post on that site.
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This is hilarious!
Dislike the meme, because I fully believe the beehaw decisions have solid, purely technical, grounds.
thats great! people think differently.
I’m hoping they re-federate soon after their technical gripes are ironed out. Seems like a promising community, but only time will tell.
https://beehaw.org/post/594843 It seems like there is work on it, but the lemmy.world owner does not respond to beehaw admins
It seems like there is work on it, but the lemmy.world owner does not respond to beehaw admins
Maybe you should have read all of what you linked: https://beehaw.org/comment/298646
tldr: Beehaw admin sent Ruud a statement but didn’t ask any question or ask for comment. Ruud read and acknowledged the statement but didn’t reply because there was no question to reply to. They’re now in a chat room with some other instance admins.
IMO quite some trouble when the easy solution is to just not subscribe to communities you don’t like.
Thanks for the correction, i read the post when it was made and only re read the post itself when linking. The problem as far as i understand it wasnt with communities people didnt like, but with trolls and harassment that is hardly controlled with a no barrier signup process. As long as the mod tools are not good enough to deal with that, beehaw.org has every reason to deal with this in a way that compromises content wise.
The very existence of that community boils down to people screaming the word “Tankie” at one another while trying to reproduce the most cringe corners of old Reddit.
Beehaw mods are just another group of power tripping nerds common to the social media space. These technical issues are all outgrowths of their desperate need to control discourse.
I mean that’s literally what they say in their sign up form, but a bit more self congratulatory, so it’s not really a surprise is it? They don’t want to deal with randos and reserve the right to kick anybody out for what they consider “asshole” behavior.
I see little proof for that yet. They behave like a small forum which reached its capacity.
I swear I’ve never heard “tankie” before a week ago and now I’m on Lemmy I read it 50 times a day.
I still don’t understand what it means. From the context, I assume it’s bad to be one, but I have no idea why.
Tankie is a term invented by anti Stalinist Marxists in Britain used against the people who followed the marxist-leninist line and supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary where the USSR send in tanks to violently crush reformist uprisings. It has since been used as a pejorative for Stalinists and soviet-apologists, mainly by other leftists.
Let’s be real, it’s mostly used as a pejorative for “leftist I don’t like” these days.
now, why is this phrase so common on lemmy all of a sudden?
Because the main developers of Lemmy are concerningly biased. Luckily the project is open source but unfortunately it does appear that the lead developers are into defending the crimes of the CCP mainly through moderation on their own platform (which of course is their right). They strongly dislike discussion of CCP crimes on their platform and ban users.
I unfortunately don’t have the links but there are 3 threads you can pull on to kind of paint a picture of what the lead devs opinions are.
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His moderation tendencies on lemmy.ml.
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His GitHub compendium on communism and Marxism and how they didn’t necessarily fail.
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A breakdown of everything on Mastodon by what appears to be a slighted user. This is the personal vendetta they are talking about in the most recent blog posting.
Ironically enough I kind of dismissed the twitter drama as drama until I read the most recent article the dev team posted and their denial caught my eye. Especially how they said it wasn’t worth addressing. Didn’t sit right with me and I saw some others feeling the same way posting about it.
People are also pointing out that prior to the influx of users from Reddit the Lemmy ecosystem was ‘red’ in a sense but it’s largely been suppressed by the sudden popularity.
Do I think any of this matters? Honestly, yes I do.
Only because, of course, the lead developers opinions matter and will influence the features the project will incorporate as time goes on. A recent example that comes to mind is the PolyMC controversy where the lead dev went rogue and denounced LGBT or something. The team all quit and ported it over to Prism Launcher.
Instances like that can happen and come up. You never know what might happen. Anyways it’s not affecting anything right this moment so it might be a sit and watch scenario.
Grab some popcorn I guess.
Oh and for anyone curious I think socialism is awesome and I live in Canada so I’m not some kind of capitalist romanticizer. I think a mix works best but ultimately capitalism will collapse under its own weight. Especially if left unregulated.
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Tankies are usually characterised by their willingness to defend the use of tanks to crush civilians who speak out against authoritarian communist governments.
I feel this should have been part of my beloved “Trotskyist insults” stamp set I was gifted many years ago.
You know you really nailed it when you hit that equal up/down ratio!
if they want to hide in a lil hug box that is their perogative
Can someone explain fot new users what the hell is beehaw so we don’t subscribe to them.
can anyone tell me what happened to the beehaw?What I only know about is that it’s about CCP.
beehaw doesn’t have moderators, only 4 admins. they have closed signups and try hard to curate a particular style of community. lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works have open signups. some of those users went on beehaw communities to troll, and the amount was too much for beehaw admins to manage in terms of moderation. so they defederated.
Why can’t they find mods? Lol
It’s not that they can’t, it’s that they don’t want to.
Which is fair enough. Beehaw got started as a side project to putter about with the tech. I respect knowing that you don’t want your instance to get too big and sticking to that.
I heard their message boards were getting lots of death threat level nasty messages, the mods said it was too much to deal with case by case.
So begins the game of broken telephone.
Yeah, I heard that the main moderator of beehaw is creating all the accounts himself, and putting those on to defederate (/s people, /s, this is 100% satirical I repeat, this is 100% satirical)
Well I heard he eats puppies /s
Some say the sick fuck showers naked
I heard he was eaten by a puppy
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They only have 4 admins for their server and the massive influx of people across the board, but mainly Lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works being two of the biggest instances with open registration, was apparently causing them issues.
They have a very curated instance they’re wanting to have and that’s on them. While they’re in the top 5 for users currently, that probably won’t last. As more people join, they’ll end up joining instances that don’t ask for answers to question forms.
It’ll be fine. Beehaw will refederate or they’ll wither.
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They defederated us because we allowed open registration
That’s kind of an oversimplification. The de-federated because they only have four mods and didn’t have the ability to effectively moderate all the users from large instances with no vetting process.
on top of that, they were getting some pretty heinous abuse from a couple of users on the open-registration instances
…go on…? And…?
And because this instance had open registration, it quickly became one of the biggest instances. Trolls were using the open registration + federation to harass their community. Because there are a lack of mod tools and the fact they only have 4 mods, they couldn’t keep up. In order to keep the community they wanted in tact, they decided to temporarily defederate until they’re better equipped to handle it.
They had a safe space they wanted to keep. That’s 100% on them. Ain’t nothing really wrong with it.
It’s only a big deal right now because the user base is small and they were a top 5 instance. Give it a while and they’ll be nothing in the fediverse.
They say it’s temporary but it’s not. As things grow they will defederate more instances and eventually they’ll be a tiny slice. Again, that’s on them. They have a space they want and want to heavily curate. That’s the beauty of the fediverse.
temporarily defederate
Would you like to buy a bridge?
I love how folks on this thread are so sure beehaw’s lying about that - despite the supposed amenable chat they and sh.itjust.works admins had about the situation. You guys are reeeaaally butthurt about the defed even though it wasn’t personal
Not gonna happen.
I’ll bet you a sixpack, assuming you reciprocate.
I’ll take that bet. Too bad there’s no RemindMeBot. I would’ve set one for a year
It is possible to save posts and comments, you can then go to your profile and see them under «Saved».
On another note, I also do not understand why everyone thinks it’s a permanent decision when it has clearly been explained before why it was done and what will be done in the future. It is also quite weird how the users that are most mad about it are those that don’t even use beehaw.
One year sounds good.
I hope either one of will remember this June 17 2024. Send me a message.
I estimate a 6 pack to be $12.
They had some quality communites. Ah well, we can make them here with blackjack and hookers.
Most of them already have popular alternatives
what are the popular alternatives to blackjack and hookers? asking for a friend
I can’t believe that people paying to host an instance want it to not get flooded
This is 1984 or something
No they just want to avoid the toxicity
Nothing wrong with that imo. If you don’t like it, just use another instance.
This system means people can foster their instances to be however they want, and that’s great!
Also, fyi, if you’re on lemmy.world, leave any beehaw comms you’ve joined and join alternate comms in other instances. The beehaw comms are going to be very empty on your end soon.
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Is there an easy way to shift an account between instances? Or do you need to start from scratch with a new account on each instance?
Not any that I know of. Doesn’t matter much though; there’s no karma system here to worry about, and you only really need one account on an instance that isn’t controversial (like lemmy.world and lemm.ee, and really, most instances)
You can check if an instance is blocking any others by clicking ‘instances’ at the bottom of the page.
This beehaw thing is very rare. Just stay away from the instance and its comms for now until lemmy’s improved further to support this massive wave of users.
Is kbin a good place to set up shop? I don’t really understand the advantages/disadvantages of different instances. I made an account on lemmy.world first, but I remade my account on kbin a few hours later because I like the kbin interface a little more.
Also, if there’s no karma, what are the “reputation points” in my profile?
Is kbin a good place to set up shop? I don’t really understand the advantages/disadvantages of different instances.
Sure! If you like that more. You can still join lemmy comms through it after all (and vice-versa!) Personally, I prefer lemmy because it’s closer to what reddit is/was
what are the “reputation points” in my profile?
Only a kbin thing afaik, doesn’t affect your profile on lemmy.
I prefer Kbin over Lemmy because it feels like old reddit, and the magazines are a lot more like checking my subreddits than others. It’s also not currently defederated with anything, but it’s worth noting that could change at any point. Kbin is the fastest growing of any of the instances atm,
At the end of the day, the whole fediverse thing means, within reason, it doesn’t really matter where you set up shop.
Do magazines differ from lemmy communities? I have a Kbin account and I’d say they’re the same. kbin.social/m/gaming is the same thing as lemmy.world/c/gaming.
So the difference for me would only be the UI, which looks more like reddit than lemmy does right now but that can also change in the future.What kinda bugs me about Kbin atm are 3 things:
You can’t collapse comments (really hard for mobile usage)
You have no infinite scrolling
It’s less easy to spot in the feed if a magazine is from a lemmy instance or from kbin(not that it matters really but it’s still nice to know)The general look of the feed is better though with every thread having its own box. I’d also want a bit more separation of different threads on Lemmy aside from those thin and barely visible lines
I’m also curious which will see more development. Kbin has a lower bar to entry because it’s PHP but I imagine there are others that have no interest in touching PHP unless I’m being paid for it. I’d have to learn Rust to help with Lemmy but I have heard really good things about it so I’m considering it.
Coming from sh.itjust.works. It seems there is a pattern of some attacks to forcing defederating some lemmy instances. Those threads can be found on both sh.itjust.works and lemmy.world. There are several vocal users dominating those threads (some user even reaches 20+ comments written in the same thread). Those user whose complaining user has total against, and already hostile to the instance they dislike, and interact to the other instances with bad faith, provoking, and insulting those instance. I believe this is some sort of coordinated pattern to break fediverse into echo-chamber.
IMO, defederation should be used as last resort, because normal user, especially seeking small niches, will be affected the most. In case of beehaw, there are tons of factors that are justifiable. I wish this defederation drama is not become the defining feature on both lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works.
I believe individual user can block communities and users, plus block instance feature is in the works. I wish the people who starts those threads can just do that.
Can you link to those threads? It’s my opinion that coordinated attacks like that should result in bans. Can you ban users from other instances on your instance?
Yes.
The problem is that sh.itjust.works has an open-registration policy. So when Beehaw.org banned a user, they just made user2@sh.itjust.works and then user3@sh.itjustworks (etc. etc.) and Beehaw.org kept getting flooded with dick-pic spam.
The underlying question is one of open-registration vs closed-registration. Furthermore, its compounded by the fact that Mastodon-like moderation tools don’t exist yet (Lemmy is much newer), so solutions from Mastodon don’t exist yet.
It sounds like Beehaw.org is pretty confident that Mastodon-like moderation tools will allow them to open back up.
It is still me just under different account. I decide seeing if the defederates posts settle before I reply to you.
On sh.itjust.works, This user creates several threads and comments to making wave hating on exploding-heads.com in last 24 hours and he is proud of the clout he generates. There are also several brigading kbin.social people replying to my comments as camoflaging as sh.itjust.works people; in my instance kbin.social people do not have their @ domain. I am correct on this one; there are several trolls try to abuse defederate feature disguised as community voice as they please.
In this instance I immediately see another post, that is posted in the same day here. However, this attempt immediately backtracked by the OP, so I think this is different than what happens on sh.itjust.works so I am wrong on this one.
Yep it’s definitely a grand conspiracy and totally not an inevitability in this type of system. Could I also get your opinion on the moon landings?
not OP, but sure
they filmed the moon landing on the moon
all of that footage we have? Fake
they did travel to the moon but they faked all of the footage on site (the moon)
also Kubrick was there
Haha I like this. The footage is indeed from the moon but descriptive in some other fashion other than being outright fake?
the moon buggy on camera was a wooden replica but to get it on site (the moon), they had to build an actual moon lander and everything
There is no moon.
Well actually the moon is a potato
I wouldn’t be surprised if reddit is cooking some shit up on their end tbh.
lemmies: laughs at beehaw defederating
also lemmies: “hey we should totally defederate from exploding-heads”
They’ve only been the most popular instance for like 3 days and the mods there are already power tripping.
Unfortunately, “Defederating” is the same as “Banning yourself from everybody else”, so I trust that people will vote with their (virtual) feet and move to instances with a more diverse set of federations.
They are not power tripping, if you’ve read their posts you’d know that they have a very concrete view of the story of community they want to build and unfortunately their manpower and moderation tools just don’t allow them to stick to it while staying federated with rapidly growing communities.
Which is why I’ll say it again and again, the fediverse might’ve been the wrong choice for building a community like they want
Agreed
I disagree. The advantage of the Fediverse is finding people who wanna cultivate a similar internet experience as you. I can still comment on Beehaw because I’m on a small well-moderated platform.
And had you been on an instance that was defederated you’d have to create another account to acces their community, just like a separate forum, which I exaplained in the other post would be the better choice.
Because it doesn’t make sense to have that kind of manual approval registration system aimed to only have specific users in the community that share their values, so they clearly want to crontrol who can and cannot post there… and then being on a plattform where users can just join another instance or even create an instance for their own and then post what they want on beehaw and the only way to prevent this would be proactively blocking all other instances and working with a whitelist instead.
They only defederated temporarily from two instances. BeeHaw users still have access to the majority of other instances, including kbin. Not to mention they’re already working on a way to refederate with lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. Go on their page, they’ve been nothing but transparent and open to suggestion. This “drama” is pointless
I know that, my point is that they don’t have the tools to do anything other than defederation right now.
If any users from other instances than those two act in the same way and they happen to be from other big instances, they’d have to defederate those too, because they have no other tools available.
And they knew they won’t have other tools availalbe when they created their instance, so they should’ve created such a platform in a place where they actualy had the tools to run it like they want.Which would’ve been a classical forum in my view.
Like they want to have a community where they can proactively prevent people from posting offensive things.
That would be the ideal case for a forum where you have a manual registration proccess like they have now here. Because here their registration process doesn’t help when you can just comment from another instance.
I’ll be honest. I really do feel their argument about open registrations is a weak one. Reddit is effectively open registration. The only thing you need on Reddit is an email and then you’re in.
The moderation tools are a fair point. I really do feel like they really want to make in their eyes a safe space. Which is their perogative but not something I personally vibe with given how much they are deleting and removing. I’ve rarely had to step in as a moderator in the places I run, most people are behaving. One total person I had to ban and they were not from Lemmy.World.
You don’t even need an email address for Reddit
Around 2017 they started requiring it, I think? I told a friend a few years back to make an account and he refused due to the email requirement
Before they killed Reddit, I frequently made new accounts for privacy reasons, as recently as maybe a month or two ago. Email was not required.
10 minute email is a solution
If you use old.reddit.com, when it asks you to enter an email address, just click next without entering an email address.
Can… can we not have a situation where I have to sign up for three different sites to replace Reddit?
Just dig around for a smaller instance that is federated with everyone, such as the one I’m using
This just means beehaw is going for a smaller and tighter community.
Just join non-beehaw comms from your instance. You only need one account on an instance to see and interact with everything, including kbin communities/magazines
Just use a n instance that isn’t beehaw, like lemmy.world. that is one.
I think the main problem we’re having is that you can’t migrate accounts yet. It’s a pain to restart on a new instance. Hopefully this’ll get worked out soon!
