In my opinion, there are two big things holding Lemmy back right now:
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Lemmy needs DIDs.
No, not dissociative identity disorder, Decentralized Identities.
The problem is that signing up on one instance locks you to that instance. If the instance goes down, so does all of your data, history, settings, etc. Sure, you can create multiple accounts, but then it’s up to you to create secure, unique passwords for each and manage syncing between them. Nobody will do this for more than two instances.
Without this, people will be less willing to sign up for instances that they perceive “might not make it”, and flock for the biggest ones, thus removing the benefits of federation.
This is especially bad for moderators. Currently, external communities that exist locally on defederated instances cannot be moderated by the home-instance accounts. This isn’t a problem of moderation tooling, but it can be (mostly*) solved by having a single identity that can be used on any instance.
*Banning the account could create the same issue.
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Communities need to federate too.
Just as instances can share their posts in one page, communities should be able to federate with other, similar communities. This would help to solve the problem of fragmentation and better unify the instances.
Obviously there are plenty of bugs and QoL features that could dramatically improve the usage of Lemmy, but these two things are critical to unification across decentralized services.
What do you think?
EDIT: There’s been a lot (much more than I expected) of good discussion here, so thank you all for providing your opinions.
It was pointed out that there are github issues #1 and #2 addressing these points already, so I wanted to put that in the main post.
Lemmy needs two things to be successful:
- users
- users
and it’s already getting more and more of those.
It won’t get more users if it continues to be difficult to use.
I mean …
That’s active users last month. Roughly +50% or +10k in less than a week.
So the data seems to strongly speek against it; lemmy gets more users just fine despite being so difficult.
One question is how many of those will leave again. And obviously, we should strive to make it more user friendly. I fully support your proposals. I just don’t think it’s right to paint them as a necessity for growth, they evidently aren’t.
The reality is that reddit still exists, and is still more user-friendly (and that’s a low bar). It’s great that lemmy is getting this bump, but it won’t last unless we make it easy to switch for most people. If lemmy was good enough to be a reddit alternative already, it would be. But it’s not, and the only reason people are here is because of the protest.
I think I’m just not that worried about making it easy for “most people” right now. The nature of open source projects means that enthusiastic users can and do contribute to infrastructure, and as more people come along, more people will start working on making things better. There’s a reason reddit decided to fuck over third party API calls, and its because open source projects became better than their own shit, and they apparently think that they’re losing potential money because of it. Projects like Apollo would not be getting cut off if they weren’t seen as a threat to reddit’s business model. If lemmy survives, the breadth and depth of community driven infrastructure will outpace reddit eventually. If it doesn’t, well… then somebody will try something else. No biggie. Cool shit takes time to build.
That makes total sense. I hope to contribute sometime :)
That’s a damned good point!
Yep – it shouldn’t have to take a mass exodus from reddit with a specific push for Lemmy/kbin to get these registrations. Without the support of so many other people doing it, most wouldn’t have had the initiate to figure it out, I suspect. Improving accessibility and user friendliness will be important for sustained growth when reddit protests are finished or shut down by admins.
We’re mostly on the same page. reddit will continue to exist (although time will tell in which state).
I got hung up on the statement “It won’t get more users if it continues to be difficult to use”, because it is evidently false, unnuanced. I still want lemmy to implement these features, as it would help growth (and mostly, the individual users) even further.
It is a somewhat reductive statement, I’ll give you that, but I think the core idea is true. Most people will go to the easiest solution. Lemmy’s userbase may continue to grow for some time, but it will not reach anywhere close to the level of reddit. I think it’s foolish to point to the trends from the last week and try to draw conclusions about the future, as this is clearly an extraordinary circumstance.
I think it’s foolish to point to the trends from the last week and try to draw conclusions about the future, as this is clearly an extraordinary circumstance.
Yes, for sure. Maybe we simply have different standards about truthful statements. I did not mean to imply lemmy could grow like that forever. I just pointed out that it does in a moment when you said it could not, that’s all.
In what way is reddit more user-friendly?
One account gives you access to all the communities?
Years of UI/UX development (arguably, both are bad, but still more developed than anything Lemmy has)?
Easily navigate a user’s post- and comment history?
Space for more specialised communities due to larger user base?
More, and more experienced, mods due to larger user base?
I’m sure we could play this game all day. I guess it depends on whether you see each instance as an individual “Reddit”, or see Lemmy as a fractured “Reddit” with big chasms that need separate accounts to be successfully bridged.
Personally, I see Lemmy as potentially being the latter. Having one Lemmy account (or maybe even one ActivityPub account) would allow me to subscribe to the communities I’m interested in, without having to worry about whether those communities are federated with each other. The instance mods can still de/federated how they feel they need to, in order to make their mod tasks manageable.
If BeeHaw still wants a manual application process for vetting purposes, it shouldn’t matter if I’m asking for permission to create an account, or asking for permission to bring in my already existing account. Instance mods can still gatekeep to the exact level that they want.
Twelve of those are mine, due partly to the very shortcomings being discussed here.
people kept saying similar stuff about Mastodon, and yet, miraculously, its user base somehow keeps growing.
- Create account
- interact with community
- ???
- Profit
Terribly difficult
Thank you for that insightful comment. You’ve really addressed my point in its entirety, and thoroughly proven me to be a dullard. I submit to your vast intelligence.
It is a lot easier to attract users if you do not have to make an account on many different instances
Good thing you don’t have to do that then!
You don’t need to make accounts on many instances.
I don’t see the big problem in 1. Compare it to e-mail. If you want to switch provider you have to backup and restore your emails if you want to.
Nobody bats an eye that amiladresses contain a maildomain but with Lemmy everyone is used to the reddit way. Give it some time, people will get used to it.
The syncing and federation problems we are experiencing right now will get solved in the future, people will get used to the new naming scheme.
Point 2 is a great idea btw.
Compare it to e-mail. If you want to switch provider you have to backup and restore your emails if you want to.
When moving to another mail provider, I can forward mails going to the old address to the new one.
When moving to another lemmy account (technically creating an unconnected second one), I have no way to be notified of replies to posts or comments I made with the old account.
There are a couple other use cases where the comparison doesn’t really hold. My hopes are on Moving user profile to a new instance #1985, but it probably won’t be implemented any time soon.
When moving to another mail provider, I can forward mails going to the old address to the new one.
You’re assuming that the reason for the move is not the old mail provider shutting down. If the old provider shuts down and you cannot somehow get their domain name, all mails sent to your old address will just vanish in the void (or even worse, be gobbled up by whoever owns the domain now, better hope there’s no personal info in there that you wouldn’t want in their hands).
But, is there a way to backup and restore? For example, in invididious (Hope devs keep it up with the hard work) you can export all your data to an OPML or json and import it in another instance. For mail it can be done through IMAP.
Email providers aren’t likely to shut down. But from what I know instances may.
@DaughterOfMars @this_is_router
Large email providers aren’t likely to shut down, but smaller ones might… which is the concern for users on instances. Having a way to export / import one’s account to a new instance would be ideal; not sure how a decentralized ID might work but it would be exciting to have.
Taking an opportunity to post a lil off-topic because somecritter’s finally supporting a touch of calm around here: yesss, give it some time, people. Give yourselves some time. Let things (and people) settle some before judging and pushing in every direction at once.
[General comment, not directed at anycritter in particular] It’s getting kinda tiring that so many people are in a big huge rush around here expecting everything to be some form of “just right” right now. People don’t seem to be giving themselves or others time to figure out what’s going on, how things work, how things should work, and there’s a ton of excitement and pushing for things to go this way or that way or whatever but most of them don’t even seem to know what this place is, what federation means, how things work here, or even what instance they’re on or posting to at any given moment. There’s a lot going on that needs time to play out and it’s not all going to be obvious to everycritter immediately.
This place (what should it even be called? This one is looking forward to having a useful name for federated-not-Reddit-thing :'D ) doesn’t need to replace Reddit right now. There is time to work out what it is, what it can be, and what it should be. A bit of patience will enable sensible progress.
Notice how everyone pretty much uses gmail? If gmail goes down you lose access to everything, but it won’t because it’s google and they have money to throw at problems. That’s not true for Lemmy (and we don’t want that because it leads to Reddit 2.0 where all power is centralized).
There is also the additional issue of defederation, not just your instance stability. Like if you happen to be one of the 30k users on lemmy.world, or any of the smaller ones that got cut off from Beehaw because you trusted the “it doesn’t matter where you make your account, it’s all shared in the fediverse!” - if there’s a constant risk Gmail decides to block all Hotmail users one day, creating a Gmail account in the first place seems like the safer bet.
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Absolutely! Don’t fool yourself into thinking this will be the only time this happens. Some instance owners will never be willing or able to manage their servers as well as the big players, and that means bad actors can creep into other instance through them!
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I like your points.
Short term they need to work on the “all front page”. It doesn’t seem to give me popular posts from all instances, it’s full of 2 to 3 to 4 day old posts that were never very popular. I have to manually go around (like to this community) to find content.
You can create a one-person instance and hold your identity there.
If you what you want is for every server to hold your identity, you have to trust all servers. I think that an evil admin would be able to impersonate any user from any instance if that were the case. How do you delete your account? Can an any admin delete your account everywhere? Which one is the real “you”?
This is very true. At some point someone has to hold your account info. A DID just means another 3rd party or otherwise, holds your account which can also go down or become lost. Hosting your own account is the best for the health of the fediverse also.
I would assume the same way any other system with untrusted nodes works: with the client authenticating by use of a cryptographic signature on everything they submit.
I think number 1 is important so it’s easier to move. Otherwise we could feel centralized to one instance rather than feeling free to federate
Just as instances can share their posts in one page, communities should be able to federate with other, similar communities. This would help to solve the problem of fragmentation and better unify the instances.
On this point specifically, I think this idea is good. Multiple communities sharing a pool of aggregates that can moderators opt into. Great, I don’t know how feasible that is with ActivityPub, but I hope it can be worked out once the dust has settled.
However, “fragmentation” is neither a problem, nor do I feel exists as things currently stand. If different servers want to host communities around a similar topic, that’s not a bad thing. On Reddit, you had Gaming, Games, Truegaming, etc. They’re all about playing games, video or otherwise, yet if you look at them at all you’ll see they cater to almost completely different audiences. I don’t NOT want ultra dominate monolithic groups. I think if their existed a single “Technology” community then that would be a failure of the fediverse.
Right now is a period of extremes, so don’t evaluate communities too harshly. In the long run, I want to see dozens, maybe hundreds of small communities that maybe don’t get a huge amount of traffic, but are none the less, active and interesting.
I think there’s a third big thing: really good UX. I don’t have an Android phone, so I don’t know about Jerboa, but the web interface … could use some work. I know the bug with new posts pushing the feed down is on track to be fixed soon, but wow, it can be really quite bad. iOS apps are getting way better quickly, too, but overall they’re nascent.
I can’t quite put my finger on it, but additionally, I think the ranking algorithm(s) could use some work. I can see there’s tons of content, if I sort by new, but sorting by active results in stale posts, and sorting by hot doesn’t seem to quite hit the sweet spot on tenured/good quality content vs. newness. The recent ranking bug(s) haven’t helped matters there either.
but sorting by active results in stale
yep, the default sorting makes it looks like nothing has been posted for 3 days
At least for now always sorting by new is very pleasant.
It should be that the more popular the post is the more interaction it needs to stay at the top. That might even out the newer smaller posts.
I think #1 is a great idea, but it would take a lot of work and would probably be a pain to phase-in and phase-out across all platforms, but I do think it’s a good idea, at least to offer as an option. While I am loathe to mention anything cryptocurrency and NFT-related, creating a simplified distributed ledger and smart contract system that would propagate through federated communities seems like an interesting idea. Alternatively, creating a way for users to specify their other usernames on other servers in a small bio in a profile page could be a possible compromise.
Your point #2 also sounds great, but I don’t think this should be allowed between communities on defederated instances, because there’s laws in many countries that can classify the act of hosting/providing certain content to be criminal. Therefore, if say if server_a resides in country_a, and country_a allows piracy, and server_b in country_b, and country_b considers it a criminal act to propagate certain information about piracy, the server_a/piracy and server_b/piracy might have different restrictions to discuss piracy. However, a less-informed mod may attempt to federate server_a/piracy and server_b/piracy, and insodoing accidentally make the owner/host of server_a unknowingly complicit in a criminal act.
I’m not a lawyer, and of course this is not intended to be legal advice, but I think that the effort would better be spent on implementing a solution to the decentralized identity problem, than the de-fragmentation of similar communities.
One other nugget to consider, assuming we were to replace Reddit, and the sum of the users on the fediverse were to achieve similar numbers to Reddit’s glory days–we would definitely be scraped for AI training data. By keeping the communities fractured, that makes it far more difficult for a company to easily scrape all the information needed. While it might be trivial right now, in the ideally decentralized structure that the fediverse would take, it would take a lot more requests for a server to chase out every strand on every network.
Perhaps in this sense, it might be wise for instances to allow specific community defederation(ie, where server_a and server_b are federated, but server_a does not allow server_b/piracy to propagate(this may already be possible, IDK)), but I do not think it would be wise to allow community to community federation.
TL;DR: #1 is a great idea, OP, and it could be implemented in a simplified distributed ledger that propagates through federated communities, and uses a simplified smart-contract–or the problem could be solved by a compromise that allows users to specify their usernames for other instances in a small public bio. Addressing #2, this could cause legal problems in specific scenarios, rather it is more important for any instance to be able to disallow the propagation of specific communities from a federated server (if this isn’t already possible).
For #1 - ive thought about that.
My thought would be something like a small LDAP type server. Self-hostable. You make a user like myuser@mydomain.net and its honored as a log in for the various fediverse stuff.
So like it could hold the subsciptions for the communities on the various threadiverse servers you connect to localy, and when you open say lemmy.ml, part of the info sent for your user would be a list of communities you are subscibed to on lemmy.ml.
If it just handles the user auth, then it could also be a user auth for other fedivers stuff too. PixelFed, and Mastodon, etc. Each service could have its own sub section of the user object’s info.
You would still probably end up with a “home” instance you would use, but if that home instance becomes untenable, or goes away, then you would just pick a new instance and log in there with your myuser@mydomain.net account.
Im not a good enough dev to code it, but thats my idea anyway.
You can kind of do something like this already. You are able to host a small instance of your preferred fediverse software and create an account on it. I don’t know if I really like the approach or not, but it’s something I’ve thought about recently.
Obviously there are plenty of bugs and QoL features that could dramatically improve the usage of Lemmy
Federation is not reliably delivering comments and other Lemmy content between servers. People need to be looking for such problems, so far there isn’t any tool to observe or track this problem.
This is just a sad lol.
I like the idea of aggregating communities. Especially if the modding tools are powerful enough. This could lead to communities being essentially curated lists of other communities. Which is great for new users to discover new communities without being overwhelmed by the unordered list of communities on the instance.
Another feature that I’d like to see is an equivalent to the mastodon’s lists, a way to aggregate communities for yourself. So that you could browse the content of communities sharing a same theme in a dedicated view.
Just to add a little more context, here’s the W3C recommendation for DID:
