On another topic, there are rumors circulating that we are fascists or supported genocide. These claims are completely false, and like most viral twitter threads, are coming from a single Mastodon user on a personal vendetta who didn’t provide any sources. Such slander doesn’t deserve any response and is best left ignored.
I don’t agree with these views at all, but I don’t agree with the view that no one should use lemmy because of the opinions of the developers. Its an open-source project, just don’t use anything hosted by them. Like I don’t support the US military, but that doesn’t stop me from using the internet.
A bunch of developers isn’t going to do anything though if they retain control over everything. I think after learning about this background, and their weird claims surrounding it yesterday, the path forward I would prefer is for a strong fork to emerge of the original code that instances deploy instead.
Forking the project would beyond stupid, and to so blithely suggest it leads me to believe to you don’t actually know much about that which you are discussing.
This is just it. Software is software. You can spin your own instance and moderate it as you wish. It’s open source, so you can change and modify it.
But right now they’re asking for donations to run their instance and help with their code.
So before you donate money and your time/expertise/code - it’s probably a good idea to know who is asking for it. It’s not entirely clear, to be honest.
Exactly. I probably don’t agree on everything with 100% of developers of the tool out there. I don’t want creators of technological tools (or anyone for that matter) to be subject to purity of ideology and opinion tests. I didn’t want Brendan Eich gone from Mozilla nor anyone else gone from the tools they develop.
Most far-right fascists also make up excuses for the genocides they support - the Nazis said that Jewish people were responsible for the collapse of the Weimar economy (and a lot of other bullshit) for example.
what they hate is there being cultural aspects not under their control
china claims they were interning uighurs to prevent extremist terrorism and separatism, not control culture. xinjiang shares a border with afghanistan. the claim is that uighurs were going off to fight in syria and other regions, then coming back to start shit at home. china claims the mass detainment of uighurs was to provide language and vocational training to counter the sway of jihadists returning from the middle east.
By what definition of fascism are tankies the same?
I’ve seen the term tankie more here in my last week in the fediverse than at any other time in my life so forgive me if I don’t fully understand. From what I’ve gathered, it’s extreme auth-left. Though being authoritarian does not automatically mean fascist.
Oh boy! That entire page is definitely something.
As someone born in a comunist country I can only pitty people like that. They must have had some pretty sheltered lives in order to be this detached from reality.
As others have said it is impressive what they’ve done with the platform and deserve prays for it, but man those views are going to push a lot of users away, especially when they are so public.
The one that had a pretty bad revolution to get rid of communism 😉. The problem with communism is that, since they achieve power through illegal means, they also refuse to leave when the people, who they are supposed to represent, don’t want them anymore.
Not sure what I make of that. He quoted a guy, rather than giving his own opinion. We can make a lot of assumptions about why he quoted the guy, but without stating an opinion it can only ever be speculation. In a massive list of essays, which I admittedly haven’t read all of, one quote seems to be the big uproar about fascists running Lemmy?
And then being like “Hey maybe don’t delete posts just because they’re about China? That doesn’t break any rules,” suddenly makes them in love with the CCP? I don’t have any context to judge the quote and posts regarding China literally do not break any rule. “Orientalism” is a ridiculous reason to delete a post.
This all seems completely blown out of proportion like typical Twitter drama.
This. I’d really love it if someone could go through these links one by one and provide a detailed summary and rebuttal. I just want to know both sides of the issue. I totally believe in US propaganda, but highly doubt this is purely that.
I mean my stance is anarchism or left libertarianism, and I agree with most of what you said. But I also am just totally unfamiliar with these regimes. The only thing I’ve ever been taught is “bad”. I don’t really trust what I have been taught to be honest. I feel like there is a lot more nuance than the American POV. Also I’ve traveled enough to know that propoganda is EVERYWHERE. Every country propagandizes every other country. So it’s just hard to know what’s true about geopolitics tbh.
I think China and the USA are both terrible regimes, but in such a way that it’s generally fine to live there, which is a weird modern phenomenon. I bet Russia and Cuba aren’t what the US teaches. I suspect NK is a repressive hellscape IRL same as on TV lol.
I hope you’ve lived in Russia all your life, because it seems pretty gauche to make sweeping statements about the essential character of an entire population you are not a member of
The Revolutions podcast had a good series on the Russian revolution if that’s a format you’re into. It includes the birth of Tankies as a name and phenomenon.
Look I’m decidedly on the fence because of what I perceive as my own ignorance on these topics, but I’m sorry, if the reaction to the lead dev’s link bomb like this is to just dismiss it without rebuttal and take the Western media’s word at face value, then I have to at least entertain the notion that they might not be wrong here.
Manufacturing Consent ingrained a deep skepticism of mainstream media in me that has only served me well for over a decade. It’s not a dismissal of mainstream sources, mind you, but an understanding of their biases and a healthy skepticism and unwillingness to tow the line without my own independent research or the backing of a source I fully trust.
Unfortunately, I find that my anarchist comrades often hold strong opinions on these issues when they have not done any of this research themselves or have only done surface level research at the same level of an average liberal. This again leaves me on the fence until I feel comfortable having an opinion.
In the meantime, the lead devs may have their own ideological views, but they have really not been pushing anything heavily on this platform and have been accommodating. I don’t think the FUD spread over their beliefs helps any of us, and while they may be ML instead of anarchist or liberal, this culture also helps ensure that anti-racism, anti-transphobia, anti-capitalism, and more are cultural staples of the platform and acts as a deterrence to trolls and real, outright fascists from viewing this platform as a place to call home.
A Reddit clone with a leftist, not liberal, culture is one I fully embrace, personally.
sane leftists generally simply discount tankie talking points out of hand
how is this sane? tankies might well be wrong, but I don’t see how they’re obviously wrong. the west does lie about its enemies. a million iraqis died on a lie in our lifetimes.
People have a tendency to call anti-trans hate “politics” even when they would never call racism and sexism that. But it’s just hate speech.
Giving hate speech free rein does not help anybody, and I’d argue it especially doesn’t lead to more actual free speech, because that just leads to the most hateful people taking over a platform while most people, not willing to put up with that, just leave. And voila, you get shit like Voat. It doesn’t solve everybody’s differences when hate speech is allowed to thrive, it just boosts the hate speech over and above everything else, and creates a hateful echo chamber. This has happened so many times now.
Even choosing to do nothing and not ban the instance would have been a choice based on ideology/politics/whatever you want to call it, imo. “Software should allow any and all speech, including hate speech” is not a neutral or apolitical stance either.
For all I know, he could be trans, or have trans friends or family, and in the current world state, where trans people are being subjected to escalating real world suffering
… If it were me, I wouldn’t just step aside and allow my personal project to be used to hurt me or my loved ones, either. I’d be upset if a friend created software, allowed it to become a powerful tool for people who’d wish me dead, and then just handwaved all responsibility and refused to do even attempt to do anything because any attempt at moderation would count as “politics” while creating the software in the first place and freely allowing it to be used for hate… Wouldn’t be, somehow?
Update: So I dug around a little deeper, and found that
Update: More info about @dessalines@lemmy.ml
I don’t agree with these views at all, but I don’t agree with the view that no one should use lemmy because of the opinions of the developers. Its an open-source project, just don’t use anything hosted by them. Like I don’t support the US military, but that doesn’t stop me from using the internet.
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Yeah, developers of new instances should probably edit that out.
I don’t think its a huge issue though, looking at that page the number of people who have donated more than $10 is like… a dozen.
A bunch of developers isn’t going to do anything though if they retain control over everything. I think after learning about this background, and their weird claims surrounding it yesterday, the path forward I would prefer is for a strong fork to emerge of the original code that instances deploy instead.
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Forking the project would beyond stupid, and to so blithely suggest it leads me to believe to you don’t actually know much about that which you are discussing.
This is just it. Software is software. You can spin your own instance and moderate it as you wish. It’s open source, so you can change and modify it.
But right now they’re asking for donations to run their instance and help with their code.
So before you donate money and your time/expertise/code - it’s probably a good idea to know who is asking for it. It’s not entirely clear, to be honest.
Exactly. I probably don’t agree on everything with 100% of developers of the tool out there. I don’t want creators of technological tools (or anyone for that matter) to be subject to purity of ideology and opinion tests. I didn’t want Brendan Eich gone from Mozilla nor anyone else gone from the tools they develop.
Neither of those show the claimed genocide denial/support.
I was wrong, yes there is:
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md#whats-going-on-with-the-uyghurs
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Most far-right fascists also make up excuses for the genocides they support - the Nazis said that Jewish people were responsible for the collapse of the Weimar economy (and a lot of other bullshit) for example.
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china claims they were interning uighurs to prevent extremist terrorism and separatism, not control culture. xinjiang shares a border with afghanistan. the claim is that uighurs were going off to fight in syria and other regions, then coming back to start shit at home. china claims the mass detainment of uighurs was to provide language and vocational training to counter the sway of jihadists returning from the middle east.
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By what definition of fascism are tankies the same?
I’ve seen the term tankie more here in my last week in the fediverse than at any other time in my life so forgive me if I don’t fully understand. From what I’ve gathered, it’s extreme auth-left. Though being authoritarian does not automatically mean fascist.
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Idk how to save comments so replying
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…bookmark it in your browser?
Oh boy! That entire page is definitely something. As someone born in a comunist country I can only pitty people like that. They must have had some pretty sheltered lives in order to be this detached from reality. As others have said it is impressive what they’ve done with the platform and deserve prays for it, but man those views are going to push a lot of users away, especially when they are so public.
Which country if you don’t mind me asking?
The one that had a pretty bad revolution to get rid of communism 😉. The problem with communism is that, since they achieve power through illegal means, they also refuse to leave when the people, who they are supposed to represent, don’t want them anymore.
To be fair, I think most governments would refuse to leave if the people they represent don’t want them anymore.
Yes, we only have to look at the United States in recent history for that example…
So they’re pro-CCP, Uyghur genocide deniers?
Not sure what I make of that. He quoted a guy, rather than giving his own opinion. We can make a lot of assumptions about why he quoted the guy, but without stating an opinion it can only ever be speculation. In a massive list of essays, which I admittedly haven’t read all of, one quote seems to be the big uproar about fascists running Lemmy?
And then being like “Hey maybe don’t delete posts just because they’re about China? That doesn’t break any rules,” suddenly makes them in love with the CCP? I don’t have any context to judge the quote and posts regarding China literally do not break any rule. “Orientalism” is a ridiculous reason to delete a post.
This all seems completely blown out of proportion like typical Twitter drama.
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This. I’d really love it if someone could go through these links one by one and provide a detailed summary and rebuttal. I just want to know both sides of the issue. I totally believe in US propaganda, but highly doubt this is purely that.
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I mean my stance is anarchism or left libertarianism, and I agree with most of what you said. But I also am just totally unfamiliar with these regimes. The only thing I’ve ever been taught is “bad”. I don’t really trust what I have been taught to be honest. I feel like there is a lot more nuance than the American POV. Also I’ve traveled enough to know that propoganda is EVERYWHERE. Every country propagandizes every other country. So it’s just hard to know what’s true about geopolitics tbh.
I think China and the USA are both terrible regimes, but in such a way that it’s generally fine to live there, which is a weird modern phenomenon. I bet Russia and Cuba aren’t what the US teaches. I suspect NK is a repressive hellscape IRL same as on TV lol.
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It may be hypocritical, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
I hope you’ve lived in Russia all your life, because it seems pretty gauche to make sweeping statements about the essential character of an entire population you are not a member of
The Revolutions podcast had a good series on the Russian revolution if that’s a format you’re into. It includes the birth of Tankies as a name and phenomenon.
That’s perfect, thanks!
Look I’m decidedly on the fence because of what I perceive as my own ignorance on these topics, but I’m sorry, if the reaction to the lead dev’s link bomb like this is to just dismiss it without rebuttal and take the Western media’s word at face value, then I have to at least entertain the notion that they might not be wrong here.
Manufacturing Consent ingrained a deep skepticism of mainstream media in me that has only served me well for over a decade. It’s not a dismissal of mainstream sources, mind you, but an understanding of their biases and a healthy skepticism and unwillingness to tow the line without my own independent research or the backing of a source I fully trust.
Unfortunately, I find that my anarchist comrades often hold strong opinions on these issues when they have not done any of this research themselves or have only done surface level research at the same level of an average liberal. This again leaves me on the fence until I feel comfortable having an opinion.
In the meantime, the lead devs may have their own ideological views, but they have really not been pushing anything heavily on this platform and have been accommodating. I don’t think the FUD spread over their beliefs helps any of us, and while they may be ML instead of anarchist or liberal, this culture also helps ensure that anti-racism, anti-transphobia, anti-capitalism, and more are cultural staples of the platform and acts as a deterrence to trolls and real, outright fascists from viewing this platform as a place to call home.
A Reddit clone with a leftist, not liberal, culture is one I fully embrace, personally.
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how is this sane? tankies might well be wrong, but I don’t see how they’re obviously wrong. the west does lie about its enemies. a million iraqis died on a lie in our lifetimes.
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as a sane person, I actually did look into it, and found that structural steel does weaken significantly at the temperature jet fuel burns at.
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There’s also these:
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
https://raddle.me/f/TankiesGonnaTank/89852/the-lemmy-ml-admin-is-banning-anyone-that-mentions-stalin-or
(google cache since the site is down) https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KNky1TdNscwJ:https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se&client=firefox-b-d
And I believe there’s some allegations of them hosting the lemmygrad.ml instance, which is basically full on tankie home.
Basically, they don’t think Uyghur genocide happened, they don’t think Stalin did anything wrong and they love Xi.
And now they’re asking for your money
aa
His response to that issue is really solid.
aa
People have a tendency to call anti-trans hate “politics” even when they would never call racism and sexism that. But it’s just hate speech.
Giving hate speech free rein does not help anybody, and I’d argue it especially doesn’t lead to more actual free speech, because that just leads to the most hateful people taking over a platform while most people, not willing to put up with that, just leave. And voila, you get shit like Voat. It doesn’t solve everybody’s differences when hate speech is allowed to thrive, it just boosts the hate speech over and above everything else, and creates a hateful echo chamber. This has happened so many times now.
Even choosing to do nothing and not ban the instance would have been a choice based on ideology/politics/whatever you want to call it, imo. “Software should allow any and all speech, including hate speech” is not a neutral or apolitical stance either.
For all I know, he could be trans, or have trans friends or family, and in the current world state, where trans people are being subjected to escalating real world suffering … If it were me, I wouldn’t just step aside and allow my personal project to be used to hurt me or my loved ones, either. I’d be upset if a friend created software, allowed it to become a powerful tool for people who’d wish me dead, and then just handwaved all responsibility and refused to do even attempt to do anything because any attempt at moderation would count as “politics” while creating the software in the first place and freely allowing it to be used for hate… Wouldn’t be, somehow?