I’ve been a long time Redditor and an Apollo user for about a year. I even paid for it. The main draw for me was the lack of advertising. In the back of my head I kept thinking that it couldn’t last. Reddit is losing revenue from the lack of advertising views. It didn’t
To me, Reddit’s sky high pricing for the use of the API is intended to kill off apps like Apollo and for its users to move to the advertising filled web site or its own app, which I’ve never used.
If Huffman came out and said this was a revenue move right off would everyone be as upset as they are? Are people upset because Huffman completely mishandled the move or because they got their ad free experience turned off? If Reddit had an app the same quality as Apollo only with ads, would they be OK with it. I’ve only used Apollo so I can’t speak to the other apps.
I can’t blame Reddit for wanting to make money. It doesn’t make a profit. Investors have to keep pouring in money to keep it going. They’re going to want to see a return on their investment at some point. Usually they cash in on an IPO, but IPO’s are generally only successful if the corporation looks like it will be profitable or at least the stock price continues to go up. That’s how capitalism works.
In my case, I probably would have left regardless. I can’t stand adds in my feed. I probably wouldn’t have heard of lemmy or kbin if there hadn’t been such an uproar. So I’m glad it went the way it did.
I haven’t heard anyone say that they’re upset because Reddit needed money. Actually I’ve heard more understanding people, they wanted Reddit to stay alive and were willing to possibly say yes to subscriptions/ad based content.
But spez completely shit the bed on the entire thing. Giving them the crazy high prices, the incredibly short deadline, hiding the pricing for those 2 months, then trying to blame it on AI, and just everything. Yes, if they had a level headed leader at the front of their corporation I could very well see myself preparing to pay a couple bucks a month to Reddit to get a good experience, they could get their “Residual Income”.
Instead he had to go all megalomaniac and demand everyone bend to his will - and I left permanently.
Yep. The headline could have been “Reddit to start charging for Premium if users want to use third party apps” and it would’ve been and gone in a day or two.
Instead, Huffman’s ego stepped in and he gave media cycle red meat with how he’s handled this. The story now is how aggressive, dishonest, and incompetent he looks. I think there’s a lot yet left to be written about a tech company that relies entirely on the health of its community treating members of that community so poorly and so openly attributing that to $$$.
I used to pay for a reddit gold to support the site because Ai (naively) beloved it was a worthwhile investment in a website that connected disparate, niche communities and served as a repository of knowledge.
Don’t I look like an idiot now. Fuck u/spez
We all did.
Take that money and contribute it to a worthwhile cause on this instance. :)
Once my reddit gold ran out from buying Alien Blue, I’ve been paying for it ever since, since I wanted the site to succeed, and I never saw any of the ads. It felt like the right thing to do, but once all this shit with spez being a total dick went down, I cancelled my autopay, so it won’t renew again.
Take that money and contribute it to a worthwhile cause on this instance. :)
Yup, same. Paid for premium to avoid ads. Have now canceled and poking around Lemmy and Mastedon to fill the niche.
I was considering reddit gold, but with everything I felt the money was better placed in running my own kbin instance. bonus points that other people can use it too :3
well shoot. this sums it up so well, there’s nothing to add.
The other side of it for me was I didn’t want to deal with the inevitable increase in data collection that Reddit signaled it would be doing to increase ad revenue
Exactly. I was planning to just migrate to their official app after July 1. I mean yes the app may be an ad filled shitty experience but such can be said as well for Facebook and Instagram. Companies need money and I am perfectly fine with that.
It’s Huffman’s AMA that made me actively seeking Reddit alternatives. It was that bad.
I’m not entirely sure why Reddit was going to charge outlandish fees for the third-party APIs. Looks like none of the apps are actually going to pay them, so he’s not getting anything out of it. It’s really a combination of pushing them out of the market and then being a smug little bitch that really nailed it in the coffin for a lot of people.
They don’t want the developers to pay anything. They want the developers gone so that all the users are monetizeable through ads.
Looks like none of the apps are actually going to pay them, so he’s not getting anything out of it.
But that is exactly what his goal was. If he really was interested in working with the 3PA devs, this would have been handled completely differently. The fact that it was handled as it was, with essentially zero engagement between the company and the community, and with essentially zero flexibility on the part of the company on the implementation, is pretty clear evidence that their goal all along was to drive the 3PA’s out of business.
The outright lies about blackmail didn’t help.
i don’t think they were trying to make money off of the API changes. like others are saying, it has to do with AI and they figured they might as well take the chance and knock out 3rd party in the same swoop so that they can funnel more people onto the official app
they can data harvest much better that way
It would have been perfectly possible to charge a different rate for AI harvesting than for Reddit Apps.
of course, but they wanted to kill 3rd party apps without explicitly saying “we’re killing 3rd party apps”
this way they can (or at least they thought they could have) had plausible deniability saying stuff like “we tried to work with them” and this is essentially what they tried in the first couple of days
I feel like AI being the reason doesn’t hold up particularly well from a technical standpoint. From my searching, web-scraping is completely legal. It’d be slower, but a massive dataset is still very collectable.
Plus building a web-scraper is so easy now. Funny enough, generative AI like chat gpt can get you like 95% of the way there in just a few minutes.
Though, none of the reasons they’ve stated so far seem to hold up to scrutiny.
It’s slower, but to use an API requires you to customize your system to use each different sites unique API. It would be a massive development undertaking, for such a small benefit that it would never pay off. For an LLM, you only need to read each page once, you just wait til a post is a month or so old, and essentially all discussion has stopped, and you will get everything you need. So “fast” isn’t really a concern at all.
You can pull much more data much quicker through the API than some sort of HTML scraper. These LLMs need a lot of data and reddit is a big site.
AI has nothing to do with it other than a convenient, topical scapegoat.
Every user they lose they’ll replace with 10 bots.
This isn’t about longterm thinking, this is a push to control how many “users” they can put on their IPO docs. Steve and the current board (VC monies) are going to cash out and what happens to Reddit after the IPO is the least of their worries.
Every fewer third-party app is one fewer datum that they are lying about the number of real, fleshy users. This has nothing to do with AI training or APIs or anything but legitimizing bot activity to pump up the numbers.
That IS what happened, in april.
What happened this month is that the API users (aka 3rd party authors) expressed their dismay at trying to work with reddit’s announced changes or getting any movement out of reddit that would allow them to continue.
I think it is within the company’s right to revenue increasing opportunities. That said I view the slandering of the Apollo creator as the turning point. It was very poor taste and their communication around this has been horrendous. It kick started the migration to the fediverse and a critical mass has adopted it. So now there is no good reason to go back to Reddit even if they reverse their decisions. Heck, had there been a different stimulant to fediverse adoption without any missteps from Reddit, I would still have transitioned my usage to a system where the users are more in control.
No one really has an issue with Reddit charging for API access. It’s the insane amount they’re asking for, the small window of time they gave devs to require monetization, and the fact that the API would no longer provide all content that is the problem.
The stuff you mention is bad too, but it’s hardly the first issue here
I can’t blame reddit for wanting to be profitable,either. They just went about it in the worst, most confrontational way possible. They insulted the people who gave reddit all of its content, and alienated their core users.
Even if Huffman had been nicer about it, though, no amount of diplomacy would make up for the fact that their API pricing is ridiculous. Nor would it make their complete inflexibility and stubbornness more palatable. The arrogance and disrespect they’ve shown is astounding. Trying to “fix” that with pretty words, but without actually changing anything, would be like trying to polish a turd.
I think there would still be a massive protest. The only difference would be the tone.
Reddit needing to make $ to maintain the resources is understandable.
There were other ways to generate revenue without being greedy.
For example, users pay for awards like gold etc on Reddit. This concept could have expanded to a marketplace for 3PA stickers. If 3PA apps have stickers that they were pushing as additional revenue for the developers, Reddit could have stepped in and developed a marketplace to host and promote them for the developers as well. It would be a similar model to the Google Play and Apple App stores taking a commission for in app purchases. It doesn’t have to be in the vicinity of 30% either. It’s not a perfect example by any means, so don’t flame me or the idea.I deleted all of my accounts, posts and comments after the clusterfuck of an AMA. The interviews Huffman gave the following week to The Verge and other media sites totally reinforced my decision not to go back. I still go back to get some tech resources that I need but it’s through alternative addresses so I don’t add to their analytics stats.
Stickers and Reddit gold are, by the wildest and most nonsensically optimistic estimates imaginable, not going to be even in the same state as the amount of revenue they’re looking for.
Stickers or gimmicky items like that seem to be popular enough for Selig to spin it off as a separate business.
My comment was about Reddit’s inability to think of a smarter long term solution with the 3PA developers. Instead they went with a moonshot for a short term gain that reeks of arrogance, greed and stupidity.
For me, it didn’t have to do with ads at all. It was about Reddit charging exorbitant fees for the APIs needed for tools required to make moderation fun enough to actually do, combined with his actions related to 3PA devs and moderators after the fact.
Reddit could have invested in their API and made it an ad distribution platform; instead they invested in NFTs and let the API system remain a mess.
As of 3 weeks ago, I would’ve been willing to:
- Pay for reddit premium in order to use a third party app.
- Stuck around even without a third party app, using only the old.reddit interface for as long as that was going to work with Reddit Enhancement Suite.
- Allowed ads to get through my ad blocker on Reddit.
- Kept my old comment/link history accessible on the site.
- Continue to use reddit.
Now I’m basically unwilling to do any of those things. The interviews they gave up through the first 2 days of the blackout made me pledge not to actually pay reddit any money (and I’ve paid for gold from when it was first announced, as a “charter member,” till when they decided to dramatically increase the price in exchange for a complicated “premium” offering).
And since then, the hamfisted way they’ve dealt with mods and protests are getting me to leave the site early, too, and going out of my way to delete my old comments and posts that actually added information to the site, plus deleting or otherwise breaking the URLs of my content that have been linked from anywhere on reddit (whether in a post by me or reposted by someone else).
The way I see it is since I’m not a reddit customer, then I’m the product.
Except, if I’m the product, you’re probably not supposed to nickle and dime me.
It’s kinda like if McDonald’s was trying to charge cows for the privilege of being ground into patties, but relied on them to go through the process of their own free will.
Without user content, reddit is just an empty husk, a waste of data center resources, yet they behave like they’re somehow entitled to my engagement on the platform.As for how they’ve handled things, it’s been a train wreck.
Just requiring reddit premium to have access to the API/3rd party apps would have made a few waves, but nothing like this. Keeping their mouth shut would have been more useful than almost everything they’ve done… whatever their strategy was…Even without any of that though, they’ve been working hard at making the experience worse for a while. The redesign focuses on the user consuming ads instead of content, dooms scrolling instead of reading or commenting.
TL;DR: They were going to shit regardless, they just decided to use more fans.
All the drama and pisspoor management by spez aside, ultimately the way I used reddit is through RiF. To me, that’s reddit. I can’t stand their official app and their official website is horrendous.
They forced my app to close down so I guess that’s that.
I stopped using RiF and consequently reddit in protest. I held out hope this was a shitty negotiation tactic by Reddit and they’d eventually back off somewhat. But they’ve tripled down on it.
This forced me to reevaluate my relationship with the platform and I decided to check out Lemmy kbin and mastodon. I also checked out some old forums I frequented before reddit took over.
I reinstalled a newsreader and set up RSS feeds for my favorite things.
Basically, I’m realizing I don’t need reddit as much as I thought I did. I actually have enjoyed the fediverse,beehaw in particular, more. I never used Twitter but mastodon has really great content and engagement as well.
I’m not saying I’d never go back to Reddit. I probably would if RiF somehow survived, but reddits lost its luster for me and I don’t trust it anymore. So why waste time actively participating there so I can have the rug pulled from under me again?
Reddit may not see a mass exodus like Digg or Myspace, but it’s been poisoned and over time the rot will set in and it will fester. This will be the moment people point to as the turning point.
I used to use Tweetbot to read my Twitter feed. I would read the latest 100 tweets every day. When the plug got pulled on the app, I just stopped reading Twitter at all and don’t miss it. In the case of Apollo, I scroll through my feed for an hour or more if I’m bored with nothing else to do. I mostly looked at funny, wtf, and photos. It was mostly a waste of time, however entertaining it might be. So when Apollo shuts down, like you, I may not need Reddit as much as I thought.
I am almost a mirror-image of you regarding Reddit, except to me Reddit was Apollo rather than RIF. I too have cancelled Reddit Premium, which I paid to support a platform I used a lot. LIke you I am trying out the fediverse via lemmy, kbin, and mastadon; and, like you, I am enjoying mastodon and using it much more than I ever used Twitter. Finally, like you, I have gone back to RSS feeds and old forums I used before my Reddit habit overshadowed them. And other people I know are doing the same, albeit they tend to be the more techy inclined.
I used to subscribe to Reddit for the ad-free experience when I was a mobile web user. They kept making mobile web worse and worse and didn’t listen to user feedback after a point and made it so unusable I unsubscribed then found Apollo after refusing apps for years. Only been on Apollo maybe a year and now they’re destroying that. I’ve tried their app and it is a battery hog (spyware is my guess), works like crap and has too few features that I want .
There’s a few communities that I will miss over there but other than that I’m very excited for the fediverse and hope meta and bots don’t kill this platform before it gets going.
The push towards app from mobile browser was insane. In the end they even made NSFW marked posts impossible to view in web browser. WTF.
Reddit killed internet fora. By being easier and cheaper, while making no profit.
If they suddenly do want to make profit?
The terms change, there are alternatives.I agree. They built a better mouse trap and now they want to go back to the old one because they figured out they can sell cheese. The better mouse trap still exists.
Notice how Reddit haven’t engaged in any positive damage control at all? It’s just been hit pieces against devs, an AMA with completely canned responses and unprecedented wide-spread hostile action against it’s content creators/power users/mods?
Reddit is in full-blown sell out mode right now and nothing but money matters anymore. It’s all down hill from here.
Yeah, I don’t care about third party apps or API anymore. Their handling of it became very clear that they are headed in the direction of a Zuckerberg run type multi billion dollar company fully monetizing and extracting data from users, so I don’t feel like using their sketchy app like I would never use a Facebook app or Tiktok app, or make an account for either of those two. And don’t want to provide location based behavioral data they get from ip addresses and what type of interests I’m into so they can sell that type of demographic data to companies.
People share way more on reddit than they do to people they know because of pseudonyms, so yeah I don’t want to directly provide anymore than I have to towards the profits of a large corporation.
It does certainly seem like it, but what exactly are they trying to achieve? They don’t have an IPO yet and even if they got one now it would be devalued over before the shit show. And with every new day reddit shows potential investors that they have absolutely no control of the situation, and just doubles down on idiocy.
How is it supposed to make money at this point?Memory is short on the internet. Reddit are hoping for this to blow over “quickly” (i.e. in a month or two) because they know the bulk of their users will continue to show up (out of inertia or a lack of viable alternatives). If they can keep the front page showing decent posts, they think they’ll make it through.
I think the knock-on effects of losing mods and “power users” will take some time to play out. The real long term effects won’t be known until it becomes clear that the loss of those key users has effected the quality of the posts and therefor usage by your “average Redditor.”
Ad revenue should convince the investors. Who cares if there’s no real content besides automated reposts and bot spam, as long as there are some users who they can shower with an endless stream of ads.
Yeah, and with ip logs and ad click throughs and people also providing comments that can form a personality type that type of data can be useful to marketers to see what people with certain interests go on to buy. Add downloading the official app on smartphones with the permission requests, and that’s even more data to provide. Especially if the app is able to get info like your email address or phone to then connect to a public directory.
It’s not about the spoken message but just the “our way or the highway” attitude and blatant gaslighting. If I had wanted that I would have stayed with my ex.
I’m perfectly ok with paying to get rid of ads. I’ve had Reddit Premium. I use YT Premium. I have Spotify Premium (for free with my phoneplan). I pay for Twitch Turbo. All stuff I use a lot and for me worth the price to have them ad-free.
Nobody is against them making money, but personally it was just the iicong omn the cake. The censorship was my biggest issue, then they started requiring emails, etc…losing my apps and then threatening mods was it.
That and the outright lies Huffman said about Christian!
That really did put the nail in the coffin for me.
He lied about that. What else will he lie about? How many other innocent people will he accuse of wrong-doing in the future? He’s obviously shown that he is very openly willing to do so.
No thank you.
