Out of all the segmented degenerate hiveminds in the US, I think sovereign citizens often baffle me the most.
The most profoundly puzzling thing to me is their insistence that magic words will somehow make authorities back off.
Like, they believe that there is this grand conspiracy involving the Federal Reserve and maritime law and birth names and whatever else. And yet they also believe that the forces behind this conspiracy must acquiesce if you just invoke the right language.
Do they never consider that an entity powerful enough to do all that could also just ignore their demands? Like, even if the conspiracy is true, why would its perpetrators just give up because some random person told them to?
Check out The Freemen. This is pretty much where this stuff came from, whackos in Montana during the 90s who pulled off the longest standoff with the FBI in American history (may have changed since).
They had their own currency (which some locals would actually accept), and they were very, very good at painting themselves as innocent victims.
I believe that because of them and other groups like The Montana Militia are one of the prime influences for this movement.
It’s the same impulse that made medieval people believe they could defend themselves from fairies and demons by saying the right things the right way. Some part of the insanity demands that a person who sees through the illusion can somehow win against the evil conspirators
My guess would be that by using the right words they pretend to be part of that power, because how else would one tell apart the laymen and true sovereign citizens.
Don’t know if that even has anything in common with what they say their reasons are, that’s too crazy to read 😅
I know right. To be absolutely convinced that there are loopholes in everything and that only the rubes are playing by the rules is one thing. But to maintain that belief in the face of what must become a long string of failures… takes a certain mental toughness to be kind.
I suppose if you look around and everyone else seems to be doing better than you, maybe you assume they must all be cheating and you start looking to get in on the game. A few YouTube holes down the road you think you can pay your child support with secret legal incantations.
They’re grifters of the self.
takes a certain mental toughness to be kind.
We have a similar bunch of wackos in Germany, the Reichsbürger. They claim that the modern German constitution is illegal because the German Empire was never officially disbanded as an entity and therefore they don’t have to follow the current laws. Many also dream of reinstating a monarchy and are - surprise! - fascists.
Similarly same is happening in Czechia. Sovcivs claim Czechoslovakia splitting wasn’t constitutional or something like that. Similar idea, same bunch of dumb fucks.
Was the split better for Czechia than for Slovakia? (My uneducated general impression’s been that Czechia has more GDPs).
I’d say, economically, we were both equal. Minor differences really, neither country is “more profitable to live in”.
Wasn’t it a group of Reichbürgers that got arrested last year for planning a coup in a partnership with right wing military officers?
Is there a royal family in Germany? Like that monarchy lasted about a hundred years… And it’s been that same amount of time since then!
One of their figureheads is a self-declared prince and actually comes from a minor noble house. The family of the last German emperor are the Hohenzollern though, which still exist but are not associated with the Reichsbürger movement.
No royal family but Reichsbürger often have people as their leaders who call themselves King
I used to be baffled by Flat Earthers until I realized it was just a religious thing.
I find them baffling, what’s their deal?
Is it like a religion for them or is there an actual religion?
No, one of their core arguments is that language in the bible heavily implies that the earth is flat. Nevermind that the bible is a collection of stories from uneducated iron-age fanatics…
There’s nothing in the Bible that implies the earth is flat… but most people who use the Bible to excuse their behavior don’t actually read it, so it’s not wild to hear they think the Bible is the basis for their beliefs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament
Isaiah 11:12 - And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Ezekiel 7:2 - Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.
There is actually plenty of language in the bible that implies a flat earth. I found these examples with 5 minutes of searching.
Four corners of the earth usually refers to the cardinal directions, north, east, south, west. It doesn’t mean there are actual corners at the edge of a plane.
Well sure, but only if you interpret it like a reasonable person, which they don’t.
I thought flat earthers claim the earth is a disc (which has no corners)?
Like any good religious nut, their arguments are full of contradictions.
Wow, TIL, but it made more sense before I learnt of this fact
Edit: to be clear, it’s not that I believe Earth to be flat, it’s that this “argument” makes even less sense than an assumption that flat earth was just a trolling
Flat earth= god is beyond a doubt real.
Round earth= god may be real? We are not sure, probably not.
It’s just a rehashed deep fried form of proselytizing as the people who fall for that shit, will surely fall for other shit, and you can even milk some money of out them like that guy who used them to build his own rocket.
God’s kinda trash for:
- Being unclear about this
- Letting us infer whatever bullsh based on His nothing input
- Childhood cancer
It is religion. They approach it as the Earth is the center of the universe and try to come up with experiments that prove their existing worldview instead of figuring out how things actually work.
I’m guessing somewhere up the chain is a person making money from it, probably a book or class that teaches the “secrets.” And of course when your sovcit crap fails to work you didn’t follow the program to the T.
I mean, that’s basically Great Value Scientology.
Sovereigntology? Their book “Dianetrix - how laws actually work” is the, supposedly, seminal work of their founder L Ron Bubba. In reality the book is 75% plagiarized from “How to act batshit crazy at traffic stops, so the cops will let you go, for dummies”
I’m completely out of the loop, what is this “sovereign citizen” nonsense?
It’s mental illness and wishful thinking all wrapped up together. They believe whole heartily that if they don’t agree to the rules of society they are under no obligation to follow societies rules unless a rule benefits them then they should also benefit. I’m sure there are some who are just using it to grift but I believe a majority of them honestly have some form of mental disability because I watched the trial for Darrel Brooks who decided to drive through a crowd at a parade killing six people and injuring several others and he was literally dumbfounded that he was found guilty because he believed the law didn’t apply to him as a sovcit.
You know how some people think that a good lawyer can get anyone out of anything if they find the right loophole? SivCits take that to an extreme using completely made up rules. For example, your name printed in ALL CAPS refers to a legal corporation, while normal case refers to you as a human being. If your name is ever printed in all caps, such as on a summons to appear in court, that doesn’t actually mean you.
Oh jeez, I forgot about that one! My brother tried explaining this crap to me once, about how you can buy your identity back from Italy or something and how it’s worth millions.
They claim they don’t have to follow laws because the flag has fringe on it and something, something, maritime laws. So US law doesn’t apply to them.
If that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, it’s because Sovereign Citizen doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
I think it’s a wild and varied and disorganized mess dreamed up by people who have left the very idea of being reasonable far behind them long ago.
However, a crucial part of it is certain specific capitalization of words. I think some of them had been using caps lock to post rants on discus for too long and think that it has some magical meaning under law…
I say all that to say that they believe that there’s a “legal entity” that is invoked when you capitalize versus plain case someone’s name (amongst other things)…and that there is a difference between this “legal entity” and the person in a body…which there frankly plainly and obviously isn’t.
Despite being told in court by multiple judges that the capitalization of things does not matter, they persist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement#Immunity_from_laws_and_taxes
I thought the capitalization stuff was kind of a side show, but have since realized that not only is it crucial to their belief system, it also serves as a way to identify them on the Internet. If someone strangely insists on capitalizing certain words or phrases every time they use them and is otherwise very unreasonable, there’s a good chance they’re a sovcit (or should I say SOVCIT? 🙂).
They beleve that the US is a corporation. This is based on wording in the constitution, but a business corporation is not really the same thing.
So when you are born, your birth certificate gives you a corporate name.
So they use a capitalised version of the name, its their “true” name and not their corporate name, so they are not liable for accounts sent to their “corporate” name.
I think it appears from a fundamental misunderstanding of the social contract. They disagree that they are bound by government and it’s laws because they never agreed to it explicitly. They are wrong. Being born in America means your are a citizen and bound by it’s rules… they still live here and utilize the infrastructure, they never renounce their citizenship and they don’t leave, so it’s all crappy entitlement shit to try and get out of tickets and bills and taxes
Congrats! You’re one of today’s lucky 10000!
One of those rarer instances where a congrats should be in scare quotes tho
Like they’re just making words up. Living completely in their own world
Munecat i think did an amazing video on sovcits. And hey now, we only started this problem but weve apparently exported it everywhere else.
Australia’s working on it and getting pretty far. Heck the original Q-board-owner-guy was Aussie. You’d figure that in the land of Rupert Murdoch though eh.
Yep, gottem up here north of the 49th now…
I mean, you and I both know it was only a matter of time before it hit Canada, and it wasnt going to be long. Sorry neighbor.
I will admit, sometimes I start to think, maybe they are on to something…
My best friend from childhood sometimes slips into SC territory. We don’t talk often but when we do, it can be a doozy. HE was never like this before COVID.
They’re high on their own supply, is what they are.
COVID hit hard on mental health for many of us
COVID hit hard on mental health for many of us
That I understand, when you had the Democrats going full fascist on everyone, it wears people down. The Democrats made it hard for normal life to function. It’s why they are suffering the consequences to this day.
Dude, one party advocated for following recommendations made by medical professionals. The other, not so much.
It was hard for a normal life rhythm precisely because those same normal behaviors did nothing to curb the spread of a contagious virus.
The Democrats didn’t follow the science. Had they followed the science, we would have been like Sweden. They followed the science.
Can you point to how you believe the Democrats went full fascist while not being in total control of the government?
Then, can you point to how Sweden followed the science but the Democrats did not?
I think there’s a nugget of overlap and truth here, but I haven’t experienced it
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The Democrats didn’t make it hard for normal life to function, COVID did.
Also lmao at ‘full fascist’ as if there were forced vaccination camps that the government was tossing idiotic republicans into. Ironically that probably would have been a lot more successful at disease prevention than the ‘ignore the problem, prevention is the real enemy, I want to die attempting to breath god’s free air through my ventilator and that’s my right’ strategy that many red states adopted
So what’s your favorite method of ivermectin use? Do you just take a dewormer cocktail or do you butt-chug it?
Funny, can’t say I ever mentioned ivermectin.
The Republicans did.
Man, who would have thought they don’t take a drawing of a seven legged spider as payment?
God I love that page.
Damn new time waster funny site. I just read the interview question one and I am officially hooked.
Obviously Walter Bowers is the best pick since he can bridge the gap between Kevin and the rest of the team and help Kevin feel more included while away from his cabbages
Where’s the “that type of payment “? What was it?
It appears he is trying to pay his bill with a registered security. This can be a number of things but, basically, it’s a document showing ownership of some value of something. Stock in a company can be a security, investments in a market index, etc. They have legit value, they are transferable, but they have a fungible value, based on the value of whatever the security is in, at the time it is purchased/sold.
For some reason he seems to believe that because something has a legit, defined, value the company is legally obligated take it as a form of payment. This is completely untrue, of course. They don’t even have to take local currency if they don’t want to (ex- if you have a $300 bill, and you try to pay in pennies, they have a right to turn down the payment). The UCC 3 he mentions is a form to amend information on a lien.
SCs believe that the United States Corporation uses US citizens as security to take out international loans.
For that purpose, the government opens up a secret bank account in the name of every citizen at birth.
If you know the correct magical mumbo-jumbo language, you can release the money deposited in that account for yourself and use it to pay for things, since you aren’t a member of the corporation anymore.JFC. There is financial, and political, illiteracy, then there is this. It’s like they worked on the illiteracy, made it something beyond that, and then honed it, super illiteracy, if you will. I mean, the government, in a very round about way, does secure loans on it’s people. However that is because the people create economic value. That value, and it’s historical stability, are some of the metrics used.
Maybe they heard about how corporations take out insurance on their employees, and have accounts that can pay-out on their death, smoked a bunch of meth and extrapolated this shit out of it?
More importantly, the scammers who came up with this shit figured out a way to promise their marks easy access to a secret stash of money, and all they have to do to claim it is buy a how-to guide for several hundred dollars in real cash.
The logic is great on this. “Give me your worthless dollars and I’ll give you this secret currency that is actually valuable.”
Why would anyone want USD when they claim it will be worthless soon? The exchange makes no sense for the seller if true. Same idea for the gold and silver grifters charging way over melt.
Yup anyone who is selling a book and/or classes to anything that isn’t being vetted by a third party with no interest in the subject is a scam. The self help section of a book store is basically the scam to borderline cult section.
It’s because they make these people, who have felt lost in this world we made their whole lives, have been given a beacon of hope that they’ve finally got it figured out, they’re finally getting the upper hand.
None of this shit is presented to them the way we see it; when they stumble upon the world of SC it’s much the same and Qanon shit- they’re special and they’re being welcomed into knowledge that can CHANGE things for them. “This is what they should have taught in school instead of that boring crap that I couldn’t pay attention to”.
And yea for lots of em that’s because they’re arrogant and thought they already knew it all; for others they simply got left behind. Sad either way.
The ones that got left behind I feel for. The arrogant ones can shove their fake currency where the sun don’t shine.
It’s like the Matrix but late-stage capitalistic
Nice. Every batshit concept has a soupçon of truth.
This is what worries me - they have a few good points and correct arguements, but dear God are they just clueless and trying to avoid responsibility for themselves.
Thing with sovereignty - must be recognized and defendable… they aren’t.
So this is essentially the guy on Craigslist who gets offended that you don’t want to sell him your car for a broken jet ski and a Playstation 2?
kinda. more like the guy who wants to pay with treasury bonds, or something like that.
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wait. I thought there was a law requiring us currency to be accepted for debt payment.
Only debts to the government. They also only have to accept cash in person. For example. If you owe the IRS 5k and you go to a local Taxpayer Assistance Center, with 5k in coins, they have to accept it. However, if you are paying via mail, online, etc., they are allowed to restrict the payment types they will accept.
ah thanks. This would explain it and I was under a false understanding.
I believe the Government has to accept cash for any charges, but private companies have to accept cash for debts. Like if your car gets towed, the tow company must accept cash, even if it’s all pennies.
This is only true for certain states and certain businesses. For instance, if you are in Texas your example of towing is correct. In the state of Ohio the state law states that tow companies can only accept cash, certified checks, Discover, Mastercard, American Express, and Visa. However it does not dictate that they MUST accept all of those. The point of the clause is to remove personal checks from the system, since most tows are requested by a government body, and personal checks are a major vector for fraud. However, in Texas, towing is one of like 3 different things I can find that require cash acceptance. All of these are mostly business generated at the request of the government.
Now, debt owed to private businesses, that gets rolled into some sort of government mediated mechanism, IE bankruptcy, do have to accept cash. That debt collection is generally either handled by the government, or a third party contractor. There are no blanket, federal level, laws that dictate businesses must accept cash. Now, there is a growing movement to make state laws forcing this. This is because cashless systems create an extra barrier for poor people, especially the homeless, minorities, and the elderly. Though this is in it’s infancy and it’s hard to tell how well it will be accepted.
ah thanks. This would explain it and I was under a false understanding.
It is, for every creditor they must accept US currency as payment for a debt. This only applies if you owe the money, such as a phone bill paid the month after service. It wouldn’t apply if this was a prepaid phone service, as there is no debt.
If a US debtor could refuse US currency, then they could force you to pay in some other currency (such as a scrip), which they might sell for whatever price they want trapping you in a debt cycle.
All US debts must be valued in USD, and accept US currency to pay down that debt, by law.
ok that is what I thought. given the conflict between you and the other commentator I guess im just going to just have to look it up. eventually :)
After reading both there’s not really a conflict. This commenter argues that they mist accept the US currency, USD, the other one argued that they are not force to accept it in physical coins/visa/etc, they have leverage in deciding in which medium you must transfer that said currency.
well the question is debt really. I know places can accept payment as they chose but for payment of debt is what I recollect of the law. I don’t recall that law for allowing the reciever to be picky about the form of the currency. Granted the debt payer has to get the payment in and if they just don’t have a physical presence for it you can’t just leave it on the floor and say debt paid. It is certainly a confusing issue but an important one as such requirements are part of why fiat currency is valueless. that along with the taxing body and just the theoretical value the country holds .
Sure, I was just clarifying why both commenters weren’t in conflict.
There is law that they must accept any official us currency to pay debts. This is not official us currency.
If this is a prepaid phone then it doesn’t matter. They can say they accept/decline any payment they want if you have not received the goods/services yet.
But sir, I don’t understand, I only answer to maritime law (Caribbean pirate locale) as I made abundantly clear in the missives I sent - no to you because I don’t partake in so-called ‘legal shipment’ schemes. I must assume you didn’t receive the message in a bottle I sent but I’m not responsible for this. Therefore you have to accept the payment I sent (strangely you received this one) in the form of a letter of change from the Germano-Papuan Trade Company.
There is law that they must accept any official us currency to pay debts. This is not official us currency.
The following is according to the federal reserve. It may be different in another country, but it looks like this post is from the US.
There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise.
This is why, when people are pissed about a bill, then try to pay several hundred dollars in pennies, the place can turn the payment down.
Since 2020 this has become a really popular conspiracy in the States, that we are marching towards a “cashless society” that will doom us all.
Had a friend from high school say that not accepting cash is an “illegal transaction” and that the tattoo place he wanted to go to should be investigated for it.
Muricans really do need to all be special little peeps, I guess
Funny thing is, there is reason to believe we are moving towards a cashless society, and there are concerning possible outcomes of this. But it’s like they were smoking meth when thinking about this and made it, whatever that is, in their mind.
In the US, a government agency must accept any legal tender, including pennies. A private business can refuse specific forms of payment.
Yes, that’s why I posted a statement about businesses. This is a bill from T-Mobile.
Depends on the government. Some state governments don’t have to accept cash, they can require that you pay by check or money order or card.
But what about debt. What I had seen before was a requirement to take us currency for debt. This sounds like a restaurant can be credit card only. If they give you services and bill you later im not so sure.
The currency is legally acceptable for the payment of debts within the US. However, only the government HAS to take cash payments. This also requires the payment be made in person. If you are paying via mail, or some other non in person method, they have the right to restrict payment method.
What is sovereign citizen?
It’s a loose term for a bunch of lunatics who believe they are not subject to government laws or taxes. They use fake license plates, do not have drivers licenses, send in fake magic coupons to pay their bills, and believe that signing in red ink at a 45 degree angle conveys special powers. They’re an absolute trip and I highly recommend watching some YouTube videos of them being pulled over, they refuse to cooperate, yell repeatedly 'am I being detained ', and it almost always ends up with a window smash and dragging out of the car. It’s endlessly entertaining.
TL:DR: People that (incorrectly) think they know the magic words to escape legal consequences.
Yes, otherwise they would probably be called a lawyer
Extreme dumb shits
just use one of those $1 million jeebus bucks like a good christian.
