I don’t remember what caused the Voat’s origin, except it involved Reddit HQ. And then it went under in 2020.
What’s different about this time and with Lemmy to make it a feasible alternative to Reddit? Is it random chance?
Voat died because they took a max free speech approach, even allowing racism and stuff. Lemmy does not have a central administration that can make decisions like that, as each instance gets to decide if they federate with another instance or not.
There’s no doubt going to be a banlist that gets shared amongst the biggest, most popular instances to get rid of the trolls.
It wasn’t “even allowing racism and stuff”. It was created pretty much solely to be a safe space for assholes.
Turns out that doesn’t keep the lights running.
The first big migration happened to Voat when fatpeoplehate was banned.
Yeah, assholes.
Anyone that left Reddit just because they couldn’t belittle and demean people online is an asshole.
Voat was also competing with reddit during a period of growth by appealing to the more toxic elements of the communities. There wasn’t enough of them to sustain an entire service and remain solvent, and they didn’t bring anything new to the experience. It was just a reddit clone.
The big difference now is that reddit corp has decided to alienate a severe chunk of their userbase.
I also suspect there were a lot of people who wanted to be part of certain communities, but weren’t thrilled with the reddit format. There just wasn’t anything else.
Those users are now open to alternatives like Lemmy, or Discord or another federated service. Reminds me of IRC in the 90s. If you got bored of efnet, connect to another network.
And a lot of the users Reddit decided to alienate are mods…Aka the ones who put in the effort to grow their subs in the first place…
Voat was the worst of Reddit while this exodus has the chance to be the best of Reddit.
Plus the kinds of people that migrated to Voat were… Not good people. IIRC, it was particularly the banning of FatPeopleHate that got many to move to Voat. The kind of people who’d quit a website because they said to stop harassing people for being fat are not good people. By comparison, this time, we’re migrating because Reddit is being disrespectful towards frankly all their users, but also particularly mods and the visibility impaired.
I migrated to Voat over the AMA stuff, and noped the fuck out about 4 days later.
The strength of the fediverse is that there can be a right wing fediverse, a left wing fediverse, a centralist fediverse, yada yada yada. Entire networks of different, unconnected instances can exist. There will probably be instances in between that act as bridges or for gathering stats.
It will be interesting to watch, but at least people will be able to join the instances with communities they like. The problem of course is that echo chambers are more likely to evolve, but it’s not like that isn’t the case right now.
And once we get instance bridged with the dark web, it could allow content from countries like China, North Korea, Iran, and other places that don’t want information getting out.
I think we’re already seeing that a lot of the groups are going to be left-leaning, and since the system is decentralized by design, it’s not going to be attractive to people that are right-wing and have authoritarian views. E.g., they won’t be able to force other people to see what they say. (Remember the shitstorm of whining when TheDonald was removed from the front page so that 99% of people didn’t see it anymore?)
I’m waiting for the enlightened centrist fediverse
Yeah, I see people advocating for that here, but the truth is that most people don’t want to deal with constant hate and trolls. People want to feel welcome in a community.
It turns out that people stop valuing things like “free speech” and “tolerance” when people try to use those values to force them to tolerate assholes.
It also helps that this wave of Lemmy’s new users are unified around some common centrist causes. Like not fucking up the user experience and not lying to its end users.
Votes big influx of users happened when far right wing subreddits got shut down. That created a pretty toxic place.
On top of that, Voat got their main population-spike around the time reddit was cracking down on racist and extremist subreddits, so those are the type of users who shaped the culture of Voat. Lemmy, on the other hand, is getting their population spike from enthusiast users, I.E. the 10% of people most responsible for voting, commenting, posting, and just in general contributing to the site. Therefore, those are the people shaping the growing culture of Lemmy, doing so in a mostly positive way.
There is a phenomenon known as the “Eternal September”. In the earliest internet, the vast majority of internet users were college student. Therefore, every September when freshmen started school, the online communities would get a massive influx of new users; These new users were often poorly behaved or disruptive to the culture of the communities, but over time they would acclimate to the local culture and become just more normal users, and things would settle back to normal. This was known as the “September Effect”.
And then one year the internet started gaining small mainstream attention, and suddenly these chatrooms were being constantly flooded with new, ill-behaved users all the time; And because this “September” never ended, the culture of these communities ended up being washed away by the new people, and irreversibly changed forever; hence the “Eternal September”.
The moral of the story, too many new people to a community too fast can overrun the existing cultural dynamic, and so either you need to be restrained in how quickly you let new people join so they can gradually assimilate, or you need the people joining to already share the same culture you desire.
Voat died because they took a max free speech approach, even allowing racism and stuff.
It cannot be stressed enough how core this was to Voat’s identity, and also how much it poisoned the entire platform. When even objecting to bigotry is against the ethos of the site then there’s no way to build a healthy community, much less an inclusive one.
Also if anyone is curious how much of a cesspool Voat became, here’s the most “upvoated” for the month just six months before the site shut down. Warning: lots of bigotry.
I need to take warnings a lot more seriously on this site. That’s the second time I disregarded a warning and hate myself for it.
I remember when voat happened, I only wish it took more of Reddit (and maybe a ceo) with it.
I only had to read the post title before noping out. Jfc that’s bad.
Same. I don’t even understand how you can hold such comically evil fucking viewpoints… Like, Disney villains aren’t that atrocious.
Huh. That archive looks just like I’m looking at /pol.
What a cesspool. I can’t help but laugh.
That’s not bigotry. That’s flat out lunacy at this stage.
If that showed up on some Lemmy instance, you’d still have people saying “Defederation is bad! Marketplace of ideas! Just block them and move on! It’s just one person!” :sigh:
Chances are they’d be screaming it into the void with how fast their instance would get defederated though. :P
Holy shit, that’s bad. Who would want to be liable for hosting deplorable stuff like that?
Nobody as it turns out, or at least not for very long.
I don’t know, I was there in the beginning. I think it died because it had no real content, compared to reddit. And, all anyone talked about was reddit, or reposted stuff from reddit, just like we’re seeing here. I think this might stick a bit better because reddit is way bigger than it was back then, so even if the same super small % of users came over, it would still be quite a bit more content.
For comparison of how negligible all the Lemmy fediverse is, there are ~40k active users this month. Reddit has over 50 million active users. So, that’s around 0.1% of reddit users. Literally 99.9% of reddit are not here.
I think it’s probably doomed. It’ll never overtake reddit. But, it’ll be a nice, quiet, alternative.
edit: Here’s a quick litmus test for all the downvoters. How many times have you gone to reddit today?
edit: I was part of this attempted migration, not the hate one. This isn’t the first blackout for reddit being shitty.
The reasons were less tangible before. Taking away popular apps will have a much bigger impact than some subreddit drama.
Taking away popular apps to a social network that doesn’t have any yet? What?
We would have to see the user stats related to reddit app usage, to talk in an informed way about this, along with the assumption that reddit doesn’t improve their app, which will probably be forced onto spez.
How many times have you gone to reddit today?
None.
Ok, now let’s ask the 99.9% of Redditors that aren’t here. You take the left 25,000,000, I’ll take the right, meet back in 5. Go!
edit: Oh man, I’m out of breath. We might need help. How about every single lemmy user helps us! That’s only about 1,300 people we each have to ask! Well, 1,299 for me. At 4 seconds each, that’s should only be about 1.5 hours. See you all soon!
Should we care that other people still use reddit?
Do you have to chose one or the other?
Why are people so hell bent to “take over” Reddit?
I found an alternative in Kbin and Lemmy that suits my needs and focuses on user experience and growing communities instead of growing the pockets of a handful of people.
I decide to not use Reddit anymore because the upper echelon can go fuck themselves.
Is it so weird to have a set of values and stop using a service/product, because they cross the boundaries one has set for themselves?
I have used Reddit for more than a decade and I haven’t missed it all.
I am here because I enjoy it and not because I have a deeper desire for Reddit to evaporate out of nowhere.
I think most of the answers to your questions can be answered by the question that this comment section is responding to, to understand the framing that I’m commenting in:
What’s different about this time and with Lemmy to make it a feasible alternative to Reddit? Is it random chance?
But, this is the first and last Reddit related thread that I plan on participating in, so I’ll be cheering with you, if we ever get the miracle of reddit evaporating. Although, I would be worried where they would all end up.
What are you on about? Yeah obviously people still visit Reddit, it was stupid of you to ask in the first place. I thought this kind of idiocy would’ve stayed at Reddit.
tbh the culture here is reddit in its purest form right now. once they start sanitizing everything here again I’m out. One opinion allowed ONLY and if you dont align you’re a NAZI and FAR RIGHT TROLL
I’m seeing red whistles and hearing dog flags coming from you! Am I doing it right?
Perfect. ‘Downvote’ me too so you can really show it to me how WRONG I am.
If you want to see what happens if this culture permeates here just look at Mastodon. Negative growth, barely any interaction and it’s the same few people shouting into the void. I checked some mutuals who proudly announced they’d move to Mastodon and most haven’t posted anything this year. Still posting regularly on Twitter tho :clownface:
A lot of users here are the same, ‘move’ here to show they’re protesting and then stop posting in a few weeks or months and back to reddit.
Some clown mod made over 50 magazines/subs on kbin. Hasnt posted 1 comment since a little over a week. Bio reads: ‘Proud owner of xxx communities.’ lolIf there is no unique culture/point to this platform and it’s just reddit 2.0 then people will simply go back to reddit.
Having been called fascist, troll, sealion, and all manner of insults because I dared disagree – Yeah, you’re totally right.
People gotta learn to deal with speech they dislike or disagree with. That’s the beauty of democracy.
This is the least self aware post ever. You should learn to deal with speech you dislike instead of complaining about being called a fascist
Honestly - I agreed with the first paragraph of your comment and was going to upvote, but all the edits made me reconsider; this is a place to share our thoughts, not worry about how many people up/down-ticked our comment.
Throw out a thought and forget the “karma”!
but all the edits made me reconsider
not worry about how many people up/down-ticked our comment.The first was an afterthought that I wanted to include. The second was because I realized my time trying Voat was close to the hate subs that the majority of the comments here are about. Neither were about up/down.
The last one was a lighthearted joke. I thought the last few sentences of it would make that clear. With an empty /m/funny and /m/jokes, and a /m/memes full of constipation, I’m beginning to suspect my humor may not be well align here.
But, I do think it’s silly that given an opinion, on a question requesting an opinion, results in downvotes. I guess I don’t get the point of this place.
I do not know how to solve this but the disagree = down vote thing has gone crazy. It seems to have become next to impossible to have a civil discussion online nowadays about an alternate opinions. It feels like everyone just wants to have their beliefs confirmed and never have their opinions questioned.
Or maybe up and downvotes are meaningless and karma has no value. I think it’s a way of polling opinion on a topic. Lemmy is not Reddit. Users have no accumulated karma, downvotes don’t hide comments and Post’s default comment sort is by New.
People are really bent out of shape with others disagreeing with them. You aren’t being silenced, you’re being polled and that’s not a problem.
Now if you are harassed because of it, that’s a different subject than a simple downvote
I’ve had plenty of civil discussions online where I had an alternate opinion from the zeitgeist. On Reddit.
Generally speaking, if you aren’t alt right scum, people are agreeable. If you believe people should be allowed to live how they want as long as it isn’t hurting people, and nobody should be treated differently because of an inherent, born characteristic, people may not be happy with your opinion but they’ll at least listen to you.
There was a time when messages didn’t have scores. ;)
I like the idea of the score modifying placement in the comment tree, but not being visible. I also like the idea of a more expressive score (maybe normalized), I suppose like the emoji systems do, to indicate funny, angry, etc, rather than some silly binary.
I think it’s probably doomed. It’ll never overtake reddit. But, it’ll be a nice, quiet, alternative.
Why is it doomed? I think if it becomes a small alternative to reddit, it’s a win. Killing reddit was never on the table - it’s just too big and mainstream for that to happen (see Facebook and Twitter). Will it be more successful than Voat? If we can sustain the community/activity that we have now, then yes.
Here’s a quick litmus test for all the downvoters. How many times have you gone to reddit today?
I’ll go over that. It’s probably a week since I last went to reddit (this includes teddit and those other ways to go there). I don’t even have an account or reddit app anymore. All the reddit news I get are from here and discord. Last time i went there was to delete my accounts and use Power Delete.
Killing reddit was never on the table - it’s just too big and mainstream for that to happen (see Facebook and Twitter).
Sure it is (see Digg).
edit: I was part of this attempted migration, not the hate one. This isn’t the first blackout for reddit being shitty.
It’s the first one where average users were affected beyond the blackout, though. Other than the alt-righters nobody wanted there and weren’t going to follow when they left. Patriots.win isn’t a real community either, it’s just constant Trump, Biden, and “democrats bad” content.
I suspect your downvotes are due to your ridiculous all or nothing speculation. No one can base the future on what’s happening right now. Yet you’re speculating it’s already failed. What a shit take.
We don’t know if the fediverse will succeed yet on a larger scale. Sometimes migration is instant, like with digg, sometimes it takes time, like with Facebook exodus which is continuing as i type this. Not to mention people weren’t prepared for this migration so none of the tools to make it a replacement have been in place. But now people are actively working on building out the community. Maybe we’ll know in a couple years if this is a successful endeavor on a Reddit type scale. But we don’t know yet.
your ridiculous all or nothing speculation
How is it ridiculous? It’s my 2 cent opinion, lightly founded in observation of when this happened several times in the past, with reddit and several other platforms, to a question, in a forum of less that 1k people, that requires speculation about the future.
Are you going to downvote all of the people saying it will succeed? Wtf? What is the correct answer to this question? And who’s allowed to give it? There’s not a correct or incorrect answer here, just a bunch of idiots guessing. If you don’t understand that everyones opinion for this answer is fairly worthless here, then you’re emotional and/or tribalistic. Feel free to influence the future with downvotes though. I’ll continue enjoying reading what people have to say.
I used the internet since 1998 and I remember when Reddit was this little known site with not a lot of users. It took years for Reddit to get where it is right now.cl Lemmy will likely take that trajectory or perhaps, be a second Reddit but with better discussions.
For Lemmy, if all goes well, will take years to have a significant amount of active users. Perhaps subreddits will slowly deteriorate, pushing more people toward Lemmy… No one knows what the future holds…
I haven’t logged into reddit since overwriting and deleting 12 years of content. So, I dunno man. I also haven’t logged into Twitter since Musk took over.
I think that you’re right, that reddit won’t die. But I think that things like this, if not this exact thing, are going to be reasonable alternatives for many people.
Oh it certainly wasn’t free speech. Tons of users trolling neo-nazis got banned.
Before it was called VOAT, it was WhoaVerse, and back then it had possibilities. It then became a liferaft for people with racist opinions. There were a few who were OK, but most were very extremist. I abandoned that ship.
While I see conservatives here, I also see moderates and liberals. And 99% of the posts aren’t about politics. Of course the 400-lb gorilla news stories, such as the Reddit issue is front row and center and that’s understandable. But I also see people discussing other things, such as the situation in Russia with the Wagner group, but there are also people discussing science is /c/Science.
Will I agree with everyone here? Will everyone here agree with me? No to both of those. But as long as there is a chance for good discussion, and an exchange of ideas, this place has a real chance of being lively. Reddit won’t go down in a day.
In 199-something, I was watching (I think the Screensavers with Leo Laporte) talking about how this new search engine called Google was very optimized. My browser opened up to Yahoo! and it took forever… and I switched back then to the new speed demon. When I connected to the Internet, it was like magic; a page sitting there waiting for me to type in a search query. Today Google is the top dog (and I use duckduckgo now, but that’s another story). But Yahoo didn’t fade away. Yahoo still gets visitors (about 5 billion per day, but that’s small change compared to Google’s 68 billion).
What’s Google and Yahoo got to do with Lemmy? Once upon a time, Digg was the top dog, and Reddit was the upstart. Now Reddit’s the big dog, and Lemmy’s an upstart. I believe Lemmy can make history repeat itself.
Lemmy is already doing much, much better than Voat. Less Nazis too (so far).
If you ignore all the tankies, it’s great!
At least from the threads I’ve read, there’s been a harsh pushback against marxist-leninists and the likes. Even more so as their home instance is defederated from all “major players”.
The leftists are why there are so few nazis.
Thankies are a very special kind of “leftist”.
The last century of History has shown that the principle of “the greatest good for the greatest number” isn’t really compatible with the autocracy that tankies love some much and many are so painfully close to fascists (with but a different set of slogans) that they end up loving the likes of Putin.
That said, they seem to have their own instance, whose admins seem very very keen on the whole Centralized Control aspect of things (a very tankie approach to managing speech) so they’re cutting themselves off from the rest of the Fediverse which does sound absolutelly fine (I for one am happy with people having their own circle-jerk safe-space separate from the rest - if it makes them happy whilst not causing problems for the rest then it furthers the whole “the greatest good for the greatest number” thing, IMHO).
TrumpTraitor supporting subs have already been called out and others urged to defederize with them (is that the right phrasing? I’m still new to this).For that reason alone, I feel like Lemmy will-at the very least–last longer than Voat as a viable reddit alternative.
*Defederate
Defecate them out
Defenestrate them!
Thank you!
I don’t think that’s a good idea. It’s ultimately up to the admins of instances to keep an eye on those tiny communities.
Diversity is important, even for speech you don’t agree with – That is the beauty of democracy.
I disagree.
“Diversity” does not include–nor allow–bigotry, racism, misogyny, etc.
Sorry, but that’s not diversity; that’s ignorance and hatred.
Yes, if they’re being bigotted, feel free to shut them down.
i just hope you endorse your anti-bigotry for all :3
but if they’re just a conservative fella following the rules and is being respectful, they have a right to remain.
Yes, if they’re being bigotted, feel free to shut them down.
That’s my entire point.
if they’re just a conservative fella following the rules and is being respectful, they have a right to remain.
That’s correct. If you can find a conservative person who isn’t bigoted, racist, or misogynistic, then they’re more than welcome.
I don’t want “feasible alternative to reddit” tbh. Fediverse is its own thing and it’s whatever we make it. We have tools to decide what content we see on our end. We have instances that all have slightly different vibes. Lemmy is just a multiverse, populated by people. So far most people here are cool.
If there becomes an instance that is breeding hatred, they get defederated. The end user can then decide to make an acct there if they wanna see that stuff.
That may not resonate with some people I guess. I really like it’s simple organic nature and it allows for flexibility.
There was one Voat. When the one Voat goes bust, Voat goes bust. Like any enterprise, it’s failure can be attributed, at least in part, to poor management.
There are many Lemmy’s. If one Lemmy collapses, another Lemmy can take its place. The individual instances might be less stable than a centralized social media site, like Voat was, but when federated the whole unit is more resilient than centralized social media.
The one problem with this is that most of the content does seem to be pretty centered on only a couple instances (lemmy.world mostly, with some also scattered in beehaw.org, Lemmy.ml, and sh.itjust.works). If one of those goes down, especially lemmy.world, it will cripple this place pretty bad. Maybe if we one day get a way to backup or export user profiles and communities to other instances, but until then, I think this place has a centralization problem brewing as well.
The thing is, the concern people have with lemmy.world is the same concern we used to have with lemmy.ml. The question of how big an instance ought to be is still unanswered. Maybe lemmy.world is below that level and people will naturally shy away from it once it gets there. On top of that, limited resources on the side of instance owners will drive decentralization. For example, Lemmy.ml shut its doors to new users once it became overloaded. Similar things could happen in the future.
Even if a major instance did go down, we’d just lose the content. The people, for the most part, would migrate to whatever new instances sprung up to replace it.
It’s already gone down. Beehaw has almost most other large instances defederated because of Beehaw’s admins having beef.
Hence the name Lemmy.
Even if a bunch of instances follow each other off a cliff, there’s still going to be plenty who didn’t join that group that will survive.
Wait, what does the name Lemmy mean?
Lemming. They’re like giant hamster or small woodchucks. Rodents.
Famous for group suicides.
Is it named lemmy because… we all follow each other or something?
I think it’s because even if a bunch of instances follow each other off a cliff, there’s still going to be plenty who didn’t join that group that will survive.
Huh, I guess the survival part just isn’t really what I would associate with lemmings, it’s the following each other blindly part (even if it turned out to be the result of a fake documentary).
I thought it was a Motorhead thing.
If you like to gamble, I tell you I’m your man,/You win some, lose some, it’s all the same to me,/The pleasure is to play, etc.
Something about the transient nature of these sites.–
guessing they’re referring to Lemmings, who were mistakenly believed to follow each other off cliffs
Oh, I guess that makes sense in context… But why would the site be named that? I guess I’m missing something.
Lemmy’s community is much better than Voat’s. Voat existed to give a home to users who were too toxic even for Spez. Lemmy is pretty good at stopping that.
Turns out when you start out as a place for Nazis pushed out of Reddit, you stay nazish
Also, given how open Nazis can be on reddit (e.g the admins are fine with a guy names after this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravan_of_Death running a national politics sub), the Nazis incredible stupid.
I think Lemmy will be more successful because I hadn’t heard of Voat before I got on Lemmy.
I think the federated nature of Lemmy/kbin will be what keeps it going. It’s not an all or nothing approach but rather many pieces coming together to make something truly interesting. I’m sure there will be plenty of growing pains and drama, but the Lemmy-verse is a community built by the community.
After trying Voat and Rukkus a while back, Lemmy seems very different in a good way. Those other efforts felt like libertarian tech bro attempts that imploded under the weight of their own dumbness.
Voat allowed anything. So it was quickly overran by reddit worst subs that got banned. All vile hate and racism. And mods also banned people they don’t like. Quickly other users left. I don’t know about you but I don’t want to see hate and less interested in political fights. No one would want to advertise there or donate to such website.
Lemmy is made of federated instances not controlled by one .
No, because Lemmy is not a platform, its a software that can be run on a server, and that server running the code is called an instance. The instance is where the platform is. An instance can communicate with other instances, which is called federation. Instances that are deemed problematic by another instance owner can become “defederated” meaning communication is cut off. One well known instance being defederated is lemmygrad.ml, which is an instance that promotes authoritarian-left political views. Another instance is exploding-heads.com (don’t know if I spelt it correctly, I don’t care), which has far-right content.
TLDR: Lemmy is not a singular platform, but an interconnected network of servers (instances). Lemmy will not “die” anytime soon, but certain instances can die.
I would argue that the federation is the platform.
This is the most confusing thing as a new user, and honestly might prove to be a real barrier to gaining additional users: Lemmy is confusing.
Reddit was simple: reddit is reddit, and then you have subcommunities in reddit, and that’s it. But Lemmy/Fediverse/kbin/mastodon/beehive/whatever term is being used, it gets really confusing in what the service im actually on even is or how it relates to these other services. Like, I’m currently talking through kbin.social/, but I don’t even know fully where I am or how kbin relates to all these other things exactly. Is Kbin just some sort of chat container for using lemmy instances, is it a lemmy instance itself, is it a specific group of instances, etc, I don’t clearly know.
Kbin is like Reddit if Reddit also showed Tumblr and Digg posts.
So, like, you know how people would take screenshots of Twitter and post them on Reddit? That’s pretty much what kbin is doing, except it’s just linking directly to Twitter without the screenshot part, in this example.
Yea I’m not too good at explaining things. 😅
self hosting. voat got too big without a real income stream, when the guy throwing money at it backed out it was done.
I’d say yes. Lemmy isn’t just one community, it’s many different servers talking to one another. If one instance goes down, people can just go to another one.
Voat died because the owner ran out of funds to keep the site up. Unlike Lemmy, he didn’t allow people to donate to help with the costs.
The decentralization is what makes it hard to go down entirely, but a key difference between federation and full decentralization is that while lemmy allows the servers to share content they (crucially) don’t share users, and sharing can be controlled by each instance. So if there is a group of people who frankly aren’t nice to be around they can simply be cut off from the rest.
I’m not quite sure if lemmy allows communities to migrate instances at this point, but even if that is not possible federation is still a way to allow some parts to die while others survive.
A lot of folks already pointed out Voat’s main issues, but the biggest thing here is that any sort of open source thing like this can’t really totally fail if anyone is still using it. Voat was still centralized if I’m not mistaken.
Pretty sure Voat was based off the opensource version of Reddit. Which is basically old reddit with non of the Spam protection built into it.
