Reddit migrator here (shocking, I know)
Just wondering because I found out about all this yesterday and just realized the ammount of independent servers, but no sign of any ads or sponsors. So… is it all based on donations?
Also don’t just lurk, if you know you should answer because lemmy only counts users who posted or commented as active users.
I think this may be the wrong question. I am the administrator of a reverse engineered PS3 video game server, so it’s illegal for me to make a profit or any kind of revenue or donations from that platform. However, I maintain it for thousands of users simply because I and others enjoy it and want it to exist. That’s not a sustainable model for a business or for running something as gigantic as reddit, but it’s what I want and enjoy, and for right now it’s affordable, and I’m happy with that.
People like you make the internet a better place :)
Not counting the cost of your time, how much money do you spend on this server?
It costs me roughly $15-25 a month to host our game server, but I have other costs like our website that I’m dealing with as well, so taking all those other things into account and I’m probably spending something like $30 a month for now. I’m actively working to migrate my Wix site to WordPress to save money. Now, if we had thousands of concurrent users instead of like 30-40 concurrent users on a typical day, or if we needed significantly more storage, my costs would probably go up a lot. The growing storage and user count are both important things I’m thinking about carefully, because I imagine there might come a time I need to reevaluate our strategy
Thanks!
All things considered, spending $30 a month on a hobby is pretty good.
One of the points of federated and decentralized social media is that there’s no need to profit. The concept is that communities are built by individuals instead of a central institutions and the communal gain is what incentivizes folks to host servers and participate. I see it as a similar ecosystem as the open source software community who constantly gives everything away for free because it serves the common good, enables faster innovation and widens the spread of knowledge that makes everyone more successful/efficient at the end of the day. If these decentralized social networks can provide the same level of benefit as Reddit, I.e. people adding “Reddit” to their search queries to get first hand answers, I think that’s the singularity point at which people will realize giant social network corporations are completely unnecessary. I can’t wait. Seems inevitable to me because the entire business model of the current centralized networks is unsustainable - part of the reason you see Reddit making such drastic moves regarding their API or Meta investing in anything and everything outside of social media or Twitter throwing unnecessary digital products at the wall and hoping people pay for some of them. Once decentralized social networks are mainstream the ad target pool is going to be greatly affected and these companies will collapse under their own weight if they haven’t pivoted to something else.
What’s the general consensus as far as fear for future profiteering? Right now these platforms are great because the are run by people who genuinely care. Do you think there is any risk of this growing so much that federated content reaches the front page of search engines, followed by advertisers wanting space here? Or what about risks like reddit gold which was initially just a fun add on, which then became a “temporary” paid feature, which ended as a full scale scam.
Anyway, I love what we have for now, I just want to know what everyone else is speculating for the future.
The thing with the Fediverse is that things like this aren’t really possible. The creators of Lemmy are pretty anti-capitalist, so the source-code won’t ever support ads.
An instance admin could try to modify it to incude Ad Sense, but the users would just reject that instance and move to a free one.
I personally wouldn’t mind premium features, like animated emotes and stuff for people that pay for monthly subscriptions, but again, things like that don’t work in the fediverse because they won’t be supported on every instance.
Maybe there will be some creative solutions that get made, but it’s highly unlikely due to how things are setup.
Meta, a well-known for-profig company are gearing up to join the Fediverse, reaction is mixed, some server operators seem keen on welcoming them, some cautiously optomistic while others want nothing to do with Meta at all.
In terms of paid features, might be a thing down the line but it will very from server to server. Cool extra statuses (e.g. Wow I’m a gold tier superstar supporter on this instance) likely won’t appear on other instances unless they decide to include something in the federation protocol that would display it.
I am a proud monthly donor. My couple of bucks I send Ruud and the admin team every month helps make this corner of the internet a reality.
So, that’s how it’s funded.
If you’re able, please consider sending in a donation. You can do so at Open Collective or Patreon.
I didn’t know you could support lemmy via patreon. Thanks for the info! I’m going to start donating right now!
Help out a sprout?
Both those links go to Mastodon not Lemmy. Am I right in assuming that your account Is on an instance that hosts both? Probably federating with M before feasting with L next?
Good question. The dude who hosts lemmy.world started by hosting mastodon.world. So all of his patreon/crowdfunding is under mastodon.world, but it’s all going to the same pool of server costs that pay for lemmy as well. He’s pretty cool, actually, posts transparency reports on a regular basis.
The idea is to remove profit motive, and distribute the actual costs to the users or admins.
Same way as any enthusiast could have run their own BBS back in the day. The perk now is they’re linked together.
I would be shocked if it stays like that forever everywhere, but since the early days there’s generally been some way to eat the cost.
Lemmy isn’t profitable, and doesn’t plan to be. It’s not designed to be a moneymaking enterprise, it’s designed to be an decentralized community running on P2P open source software. If you work in the web development or IT industry full time, you likely have the skills to set up an Instance of your own for little or no cost, even of its just a side hobby on your personal computer.
Yes, in a way this means we are the equivalent one of those massive ‘miniature’ train sets that adult hobbiests play with in their garage.
i contribute to patreons of lemmy.world and the developers of lemmy. hopefully there’s makes enough of us to make this financially viable
Same :)
it is more sustainable to pay for your small chunk of a network than to pay for a monolith that encompasses everything
I’m donating $5 to the Lemmy devs and $5 to Lemmy.world currently on patreon.
I think it’s more like a hobby, it doesn’t necessarily NEED to be profitable as long as you and other people enjoy it and contribute to it. So far I’m loving it and it really feels like a breath of fresh air compared to reddit, especially without the karma system
Long term, I see business opportunities for ad supported or paid instances with enterprise level management (reliability, maintenance, scaling, backup). The important factor is that they can’t lock you in - if you decide you don’t like the policies at your current instance, go find a new one.
Would that make you lose your comment history and username? For example I needed to create separate accounts for Beehaw and here. It’s similar to using different forums in the late 90s/early 00s in that way it seems.
If an instance you had an account on went dark, you would lose access to that account, and the ability to view your comment history in isolation. As far as I can tell, the comments you made in communities would exist as long as the instance the community is on exists. Same with your username - there isn’t a mechanism for making them globally unique beyond appending the instance domain name (again, just like e-mail).
Beehaw is kind of a special case right now because they have chosen to cut themselves off from a number of other Lemmy instances including lemmy.world. Normally you wouldn’t need multiple accounts - I read and post on multiple instances from just my lemmy.world account. You can see remote instance communities under “Communities” / “All”. If one you are interested in isn’t there, you can search for !community@instance, and wait a bit. That starts the sync of the community to your instance, and you should be able to access it a few minutes later.
I think a good business model is similar to your idea, but with a twist:
Unless accounts become portable across instances, I could see best practices shifting towards users having their own personal instance so that they control it and thus can’t lose access to their history etc. But since ain’t nobody got time for that, I imagine the business model being companies providing turnkey personal instances and getting paid for hosting and management.
I suspect we may also see more instances focused on very specific topics to keep operating cost down.
Agree, and such instances would be more resilient to federation issues. I think communities should be spread out on small instances, while users are concentrated on larger instances with better infrastructure.
I utterly agree.
They aren’t. Do they need to be, though? Maybe once the scale gets gargantuan, but even then - is it strictly necessary to be profitable? As long as donations cover costs, I assume most instance administrators want what the rest of us want - a good platform for discussion and content aggregation.
I agree with this sentiment, there are a lot of admins who are very virtuous and and will pay money out of pocket and dedicate time to this cause which is appreciated. The big thing in the beginning is the actual time it takes to run an instance, when servers get big they are going to need employees, no one can be on call 24/7 for something that costs them money (with the exception of a child).
Once Lemmy has around a million active users funding the actual server costs will become a problem but I’m sure people will figure out how to make money off of it well before then, wether it be ads, data selling, alternative services, subscription models or something else.
Whats important right now is that as a community we do what we can to keep this place alive, and to help out the hard working admins.
(Apologies, didn’t want to shitpost on a top level comment)
That’s a good point. If the organization that hosts the instance is non-profit, they merely need cover their costs.
They’re not, it’s just donations so far. Reddit actually used to profit from donations only too about 10+ years ago and had a bar showing how much they earned every day vs how much they need to run the servers.
I wasn’t aware of this! I was reading through these comments and thinking that would be nice to have here too. It would echo the nice amount of transparency if something like this was implemented. Are there any downsides to showing this info?
The only downside is that it’s bad for business. Donations will naturally slow down once users see that revenue > expenses, or users will start expecting some extra features to be added with the extra funds etc, which they rightfully should.
It’d operate like a NGO would and should but as a for-profit business (which is not ideal since they wouldn’t be regulated and audited as an NGO). Even if it does register as NGO, the show runners still get to decide their wages at the end of the day. And what’s stopping them from inflating the figures shown to users? They could say it costs $2m for overheads and pay themselves $1.5m as wages.
Plot twist: not everything needs to be profitable.
Ok but it still takes funding. Servers cost money, admins time has a cost and they gotta make a living. So there has to be some self sustaining quality to it otherwise you’re relying on peoples generosity to donate and having admins that might have to go days without checking things (and burn IT burnout is bad enough when you’re getting paid. Plus if these people do similar for work the last thing you want to do when you get home is fix some server issue.)
Donations are indeed key, at least for the major sites with thousands of users and a lot of pressure on both infrastructure and administration. It is not profit-oriented, but it does need to be sustainable.
It seems, however, quite a few people are happy to make some voluntary contributions to keep the operation up and running. I have not yet heard of a Mastodon server shutting down due to a lack of funding. In the threadiverse, a lot of people have been donating a coffee to the creator of Kbin and Kbin.social (who will provide a better means of donating in the coming days), and lemmy.world is receiving hundreds of dollars every month at Patreon and Open Collerctive, to name a couple.
Once you put users in control, many of them are willing to pay for products that they would otherwise never have spent a dime on. Personally I have never paid for any piece of software (other than streaming services), but I try to make a round and donate to open source projects every year. :)
@sab What streaming services do you pay for? I’m all for supporting small indie studios, but Disney and the like can deal with me pirating their content.
Excellent question. I wish I had an equally excellent answer.
I reluctantly use Spotify. There’s a lot of things I don’t like about them, but at least they have an API allowing for some great open source clients (such as the GTK client Spot). Eventually I’ll probably resign to listening to online radios (FIP is a clear favourite!) and my Vinyl collection (which is currently in another country).
I had Netflix on and off for a while, but stopped for a number of reasons. I have access to the Netflix of friends, but like everything else it seems to be getting worse every day. Thankfully there are some cinemas in town showing classic movies on a regular basis.
I guess I also pay subscriptions to Overleaf and Dropbox, both of which are necessary for work.
As for companies like Disney, I agree piracy is far more ethical than a subscription.
Waaah!? Profits are the key to life itself! Blasphemy!
Any Lemmy/fediverse instance could come up with a localized monetization scheme for people that browse through it, but it wouldn’t affect other instances (or if they were injecting ads into feeds, they’ll just get blocked by everyone else), but for the most part, it’s got more of an IRC server vibe, no monetization needed when community volunteers are plentiful and the barrier to entry is low. Eventually ‘big boys’ like Lemmy.world will want a more formal and reliable way of paying for their server and bandwidth needs beyond primarily unsolicited donations ($ and time) by volunteers.
These are not profit generating services, they are community services. For now.
They aren’t, and due to the type of culture that is common here many users are outright hostile to any monetization other than charity. mastodon has had instances being defederated for the crime of attempting to introduce advertising or subscription.
It remains to be seen if this changes, but for now you’re unlikely to start a fediverse instance for profit.
