but if we look at the countries on this planet that are the most successful in terms of economics, equality, personal freedom, human rights, etc. then we find countries that made it work through regulation and strong government institutions
Yeah that’s socialism. The best societies were all degrees of socialist, this includes western Europe and the USA at its mid-century peak. These societies all had aggressive, borderline confiscatory progressive taxation, large scale government intervention in the economy (in the US especially aggressive anti-trust), a generous social welfare state, and a large and professionalized civil service.
They also had large and well-organized labor unions capable of wielding power on behalf of their members and disrupting plans of the elites.
Remove those things and you quickly slide into a dystopian fascist nightmare state as the US and parts of Europe like the UK are discovering.
You’re forgetting that these countries also have among the highest economic freedom in the world, protect personal property and investments, provide a stable and reliable environment to conduct very capitalist business. The economic system is capitalist, not socialist. There is no planned economy, most industries are in private hands. Strong regulation keeps capitalist excesses in check as you’ve correctly identified, while the high taxation levels the playing field by financing a robust safety net and other government services everyone benefits from.
In Germany, the term for this kind of system is social market economy, with social being a qualifier and market economy the system.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Nearly every real-world economic system sits somewhere on a spectrum instead of neatly slotting into one category only.
Sure, but the difference is that they (European countries) do not profess to be staunch Capitalists (and staunchly anti-Socialist), whereas by large America does. That is a big difference, because it informs policy drastically. There’s a reason we’re much much closer to a corporate oligarchy than European nations are, and it’s our idealization of a system that literally is based around Corporatism.
America is the one dealing in absolutes. “Are you or have you ever been a member of…”, “better dead than Red”, etc.
This is incorrect. When the concept of the social market economy was first brought to the public attention by the conservative German CDU in the late 1940s, it was meant to be a counterpoint to the “unsocial command economy”. Being staunchly anti-Socialist was a core policy of most large democratic parties in Western-European countries, not just West-Germany, as a reaction to the massive and very close threat from the East. Relations only began to thaw in the 1970s, only for the Cold War to heat up in the 1980s.
Yes, I know, this is the past and today, things are different in terms of rhetoric on the old continent, but this was when the economic systems that are still in place today were created.
the concept of the social market economy… in the late 1940s
I feel like we’re glossing over important parts of 1800s European history, and it being the literal birthplace of Socialism and Anarchism as philosophies, to just go to the 1940s emergence of the postwar Western Europe economies. The backlash against Monarchism and mercantile economies saw a lot of support for all sorts of new forms of government in the 1800s, and various forms of Socialism were chief among them and incredibly well liked and influential among citizens.
That it took 2 world wars shattering the remaining vestiges of the mainland European monarchic powers (who were very anti-Socialist for obvious reasons), and allowed Socialist ideas about the responsibilities of government to its peoples to actually take hold at a government level, is a story about Monarchic influence clinging to power against the will of its people until being forced out, not about citizenry being anti-Socialist.
And yes, that reticence is very much a thing of the past now, and most Europeans are vocally proud of their social programs and their societies’ focuses on social welfare and community.
Yeah that’s socialism. The best societies were all degrees of socialist, this includes western Europe and the USA at its mid-century peak. These societies all had aggressive, borderline confiscatory progressive taxation, large scale government intervention in the economy (in the US especially aggressive anti-trust), a generous social welfare state, and a large and professionalized civil service.
They also had large and well-organized labor unions capable of wielding power on behalf of their members and disrupting plans of the elites.
Remove those things and you quickly slide into a dystopian fascist nightmare state as the US and parts of Europe like the UK are discovering.
You’re forgetting that these countries also have among the highest economic freedom in the world, protect personal property and investments, provide a stable and reliable environment to conduct very capitalist business. The economic system is capitalist, not socialist. There is no planned economy, most industries are in private hands. Strong regulation keeps capitalist excesses in check as you’ve correctly identified, while the high taxation levels the playing field by financing a robust safety net and other government services everyone benefits from.
In Germany, the term for this kind of system is social market economy, with social being a qualifier and market economy the system.
So, still not Capitalism tho
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Nearly every real-world economic system sits somewhere on a spectrum instead of neatly slotting into one category only.
Sure, but the difference is that they (European countries) do not profess to be staunch Capitalists (and staunchly anti-Socialist), whereas by large America does. That is a big difference, because it informs policy drastically. There’s a reason we’re much much closer to a corporate oligarchy than European nations are, and it’s our idealization of a system that literally is based around Corporatism.
America is the one dealing in absolutes. “Are you or have you ever been a member of…”, “better dead than Red”, etc.
This is incorrect. When the concept of the social market economy was first brought to the public attention by the conservative German CDU in the late 1940s, it was meant to be a counterpoint to the “unsocial command economy”. Being staunchly anti-Socialist was a core policy of most large democratic parties in Western-European countries, not just West-Germany, as a reaction to the massive and very close threat from the East. Relations only began to thaw in the 1970s, only for the Cold War to heat up in the 1980s.
Yes, I know, this is the past and today, things are different in terms of rhetoric on the old continent, but this was when the economic systems that are still in place today were created.
I feel like we’re glossing over important parts of 1800s European history, and it being the literal birthplace of Socialism and Anarchism as philosophies, to just go to the 1940s emergence of the postwar Western Europe economies. The backlash against Monarchism and mercantile economies saw a lot of support for all sorts of new forms of government in the 1800s, and various forms of Socialism were chief among them and incredibly well liked and influential among citizens.
That it took 2 world wars shattering the remaining vestiges of the mainland European monarchic powers (who were very anti-Socialist for obvious reasons), and allowed Socialist ideas about the responsibilities of government to its peoples to actually take hold at a government level, is a story about Monarchic influence clinging to power against the will of its people until being forced out, not about citizenry being anti-Socialist.
And yes, that reticence is very much a thing of the past now, and most Europeans are vocally proud of their social programs and their societies’ focuses on social welfare and community.