Why would cannabis rescheduling matter to someone who thinks the climate has already crossed the carbon-feedback tipping-point and we’re a decade away from mass-crop failure?
Why would forgiving a fraction of existing federally-owned student debt matter to someone who believes that capital accumulation is accelerating and locking them into a permanent state of home rental and wage slavery regardless?
If you believe that our current political climate (and the rise of fascism in the US) is a direct result of 200+ years of capital accumulation leading to very real and accelerating economic disenfranchisement of the working class, why would a politician who swears by and protects that system from fundamental change be one you are at all happy with?
‘But if you don’t help us beat this other guy things will only get worse!’ is a pointless plea to those who believe that the system Biden is defending is what is creating the fascist movement to begin with. The people you are trying to reason with are closer to blowing up a pipeline than they are to being convinced that modest incremental change will do anything more than give fascists more time to organize their own movement.
You don’t need to share that perspective to understand why those people might find the accomplishments in your list petty and ineffectual.
Why would cannabis rescheduling matter to someone who thinks the climate has already crossed the carbon-feedback tipping-point and we’re a decade away from mass-crop failure?
Because better outcomes are better than worse ones. Maybe a second term for Biden would enable him to maintain the policies that are planned to remove a billion tons per year of CO2 emissions, maybe even add a little to it, whereas Trump would reverse even those pitifully small gains and actually add to US emissions. Maybe 20 years down the road that little bit is what tips us into a “luckier” (relatively speaking) outcome, avoids a total runaway greenhouse effect that literally kills us all, and we get away with merely mass starvation and the loss of most of the biosphere. But humanity gets to continue after that within the wreckage, having learned an agonizing lesson about the consequences of its actions, instead of being extinguished.
Do you brush your teeth? Why? Why would you need a job, if because with the way the climate is going you may not grow old enough for your money or the state of your teeth to matter at all?
Maybe 20 years down the road that little bit is what tips us into a “luckier” (relatively speaking) outcome
You’re not listening. The people you’re talking to do not believe we have 20 years.
You don’t have to agree with that analysis in order to understand the objections of those who do. Repeatedly berating leftists for critiquing Biden isn’t going to persuade them to change their mind.
So is this, like, a one-way thing? Like I listen to their viewpoints but if I say my viewpoint, then it’s “You’re not listening” and then repetition of the viewpoint?
They’re welcome to their opinion. This is mine, including why I think some particular ones of them are shills, and including that if anyone is concerned with activism outside of the system and real change in the United States they should be breaking their back making sure it’s not Trump in the fall, because unlike Biden he will absolutely destroy their ability to organize and get anything done, maybe until it’s permanently too late to do anything productive for the planet.
You can, of course, think what you like about it. Just stating my take on it and answering your question.
Of course not, I just think that pretending that they share the same interests and concerns as you is naive and willfully ignorant of their viewpoint. They clearly understand that you do not share their interests. Bragging about the marginal improvements to the problematic system they are fighting against is the height of hubris, especially if the aim is to actually change their mind.
“Put your concerns aside so that you can work for change when the stakes are lower” is just asking those people to sacrifice the only political leverage they have so that a politician that is ambivalent about their concerns can win re-election. If you’re uncomfortable with the threat of their dissent then it is having exactly the intended effect and they should absolutely keep doing it.
“Put your concerns aside so that you can work for change when the stakes are lower” is just asking those people to sacrifice the only political leverage they have so that a politician that is ambivalent about their concerns can win re-election.
I think these people who are working for change will be in a better position to do so if there’s an extra billion tons of CO2 per year not getting put into the atmosphere, and if they can protest without worrying if paramilitary forces are going to shoot them with lethal rounds. That means voting for Biden in this election. I’m certainly not telling them to put anything aside while they’re doing that.
Protests don’t mean anything if it isn’t disruptive to people who hold the power. They have a better chance protesting against a politician who isn’t going to put them down with lethal rounds and who has a lot to loose right now, rather than against the same politician after they have nothing to loose and a demonstrated history of not giving a fuck about progressive issues, or against a different politician who has no problem putting them down with paramilitary forces.
Protesting against Biden now is the best time and person to be protesting, and threatening to withhold support is as much leverage any leftist will ever have outside of less-than-legal economic disruption.
Protesting against Biden now is the best time and person to be protesting, and threatening to withhold support is as much leverage any leftist will ever have outside of less-than-legal economic disruption.
Yeah, sounds great. I talked about this with respect to Gaza; I think this is a good idea.
We are however all the way back at the full-circle point of, where does making up things that Biden didn’t do and accusing him of doing them and so laying some propaganda groundwork for Trump to win the general election fit into that.
where does making up things that Biden didn’t do and accusing him of doing them and so laying some propaganda groundwork for Trump to win the general election fit into that
I am having a really hard time parsing this one out, and i’m not sure what inaccurate accusations this is in reference to, but I’m reminded of this quote from Malcom X:
Early in life I had learned that if you want something, you had better make some noise.
Expressing objections loudly is the actual definition of protest, which is effective solely by a function of its potential to damage reputation or public support. A protest lacking genuine threat is nothing more than political self-indulgence.
You might as well be complaining that the protest is too effective, IMHO.
Why would cannabis rescheduling matter to someone who thinks the climate has already crossed the carbon-feedback tipping-point and we’re a decade away from mass-crop failure?
Why would forgiving a fraction of existing federally-owned student debt matter to someone who believes that capital accumulation is accelerating and locking them into a permanent state of home rental and wage slavery regardless?
If you believe that our current political climate (and the rise of fascism in the US) is a direct result of 200+ years of capital accumulation leading to very real and accelerating economic disenfranchisement of the working class, why would a politician who swears by and protects that system from fundamental change be one you are at all happy with?
‘But if you don’t help us beat this other guy things will only get worse!’ is a pointless plea to those who believe that the system Biden is defending is what is creating the fascist movement to begin with. The people you are trying to reason with are closer to blowing up a pipeline than they are to being convinced that modest incremental change will do anything more than give fascists more time to organize their own movement.
You don’t need to share that perspective to understand why those people might find the accomplishments in your list petty and ineffectual.
You’re not wrong and neither is @mozz@mbin.grits.dev.
You can both be right. I’m more in the “we’re all fucked” doomer camp, but I want to see less harm done, even if it is petty and ineffectual.
Because better outcomes are better than worse ones. Maybe a second term for Biden would enable him to maintain the policies that are planned to remove a billion tons per year of CO2 emissions, maybe even add a little to it, whereas Trump would reverse even those pitifully small gains and actually add to US emissions. Maybe 20 years down the road that little bit is what tips us into a “luckier” (relatively speaking) outcome, avoids a total runaway greenhouse effect that literally kills us all, and we get away with merely mass starvation and the loss of most of the biosphere. But humanity gets to continue after that within the wreckage, having learned an agonizing lesson about the consequences of its actions, instead of being extinguished.
Do you brush your teeth? Why? Why would you need a job, if because with the way the climate is going you may not grow old enough for your money or the state of your teeth to matter at all?
You’re not listening. The people you’re talking to do not believe we have 20 years.
You don’t have to agree with that analysis in order to understand the objections of those who do. Repeatedly berating leftists for critiquing Biden isn’t going to persuade them to change their mind.
So is this, like, a one-way thing? Like I listen to their viewpoints but if I say my viewpoint, then it’s “You’re not listening” and then repetition of the viewpoint?
They’re welcome to their opinion. This is mine, including why I think some particular ones of them are shills, and including that if anyone is concerned with activism outside of the system and real change in the United States they should be breaking their back making sure it’s not Trump in the fall, because unlike Biden he will absolutely destroy their ability to organize and get anything done, maybe until it’s permanently too late to do anything productive for the planet.
You can, of course, think what you like about it. Just stating my take on it and answering your question.
My best organizing years were 2016-2017 and 2020.
Of course not, I just think that pretending that they share the same interests and concerns as you is naive and willfully ignorant of their viewpoint. They clearly understand that you do not share their interests. Bragging about the marginal improvements to the problematic system they are fighting against is the height of hubris, especially if the aim is to actually change their mind.
“Put your concerns aside so that you can work for change when the stakes are lower” is just asking those people to sacrifice the only political leverage they have so that a politician that is ambivalent about their concerns can win re-election. If you’re uncomfortable with the threat of their dissent then it is having exactly the intended effect and they should absolutely keep doing it.
I think these people who are working for change will be in a better position to do so if there’s an extra billion tons of CO2 per year not getting put into the atmosphere, and if they can protest without worrying if paramilitary forces are going to shoot them with lethal rounds. That means voting for Biden in this election. I’m certainly not telling them to put anything aside while they’re doing that.
Protests don’t mean anything if it isn’t disruptive to people who hold the power. They have a better chance protesting against a politician who isn’t going to put them down with lethal rounds and who has a lot to loose right now, rather than against the same politician after they have nothing to loose and a demonstrated history of not giving a fuck about progressive issues, or against a different politician who has no problem putting them down with paramilitary forces.
Protesting against Biden now is the best time and person to be protesting, and threatening to withhold support is as much leverage any leftist will ever have outside of less-than-legal economic disruption.
Yeah, sounds great. I talked about this with respect to Gaza; I think this is a good idea.
We are however all the way back at the full-circle point of, where does making up things that Biden didn’t do and accusing him of doing them and so laying some propaganda groundwork for Trump to win the general election fit into that.
I am having a really hard time parsing this one out, and i’m not sure what inaccurate accusations this is in reference to, but I’m reminded of this quote from Malcom X:
Expressing objections loudly is the actual definition of protest, which is effective solely by a function of its potential to damage reputation or public support. A protest lacking genuine threat is nothing more than political self-indulgence.
You might as well be complaining that the protest is too effective, IMHO.
what if i come up with a really whitty nickname like “ivan” or “big baby”? do you think that would make them change their moral approach?
I have no idea how to interpret this comment.
i’m just asking if the techniques i’ve seen people use to argue with leftists would be effective. i’m being snide.