• snooggums
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    25 days ago

    Trump being worse deosn’t mean we can’t criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.

    Like they aren’t even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.

    • Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works
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      25 days ago

      This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.

      This guy won the popular vote, and he’s out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these “leaders” are. Fuck them both.

      Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I’ll like it even less than I did last time, though.

      • archomrade [he/him]OP
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        25 days ago

        You are absolutely not obligated to say who you will be voting for.

        If anything you’ve undercut your ‘fuck them both’ by following it with ‘but of course I will be supporting THIS ONE SPECIFICALLY’.

        Do what you want at the voting booth but don’t undercut your own message by announcing your hand.

        • BallotOrTheBullet@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          Might I add, you will also undercut the concerted effort to supress DNC turn out. Just like every other election remember the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.

          • archomrade [he/him]OP
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            24 days ago

            the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.

            Yes those are the rules of being a politician (gotem)

            Why is it always the risk is suppressing VOTER behavior, and never a risk of intentionally suppressing the politician’s genocidal desire? If it’s a covert strategy to suppress voter turnout to raise the expectations of the voters, how does any protest ever effect change?

            • BallotOrTheBullet@lemmy.world
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              24 days ago

              Me more than anyone. To this day I can’t create a reddit account. I just know, come November I want another shot of changing things peacefully. Do understand the power of the US military. Stopping Christo-fascism depends on stopping Trump from grabbing the wheel. If the DNC did their own Jan 6 before Trump was inaugurated I’d applauding it because I know, that was our last chance.

      • BallotOrTheBullet@lemmy.world
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        24 days ago

        Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?

        We’ve been down this road so many times and it’s always a kick in the pants when we get hung up on it again and again. To properly take a moral stance you need to gain momentum before the primaries. Biden has not been shy about his stance on Isreal and bibi has been chasing this car like a dog on crack.

        • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?

          Oh, absolutely.

            • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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              24 days ago

              Oh, I’m talking about the world stage too. The US remains popular in much of Subsaharan Africa and East Asia (minus China and NK, natch), and moderately popular in Asia outside of MENA, with mixed views in Latin America. Our popularity dropped in all but three countries during Trump’s term, if memory serves - Pakistan, Israel, and Russia.

    • Optional@lemmy.world
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      25 days ago

      First things first.

      Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.

      Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)

      Until then, there is not much difference between “not voting bc genoside” / “grr biden genocide democrats” and https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/

      I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.

      • Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works
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        25 days ago

        Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.

        Bibi doesn’t give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I’m fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.

        • archomrade [he/him]OP
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          24 days ago

          If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time

          • beardown@lemm.ee
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            24 days ago

            the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time

            Yes?

        • Optional@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          Agreed. If the Bushes hadn’t fucked us up so much in the middle east already we’d have maybe at least one or two more options, but right-wing assholes like GDubz and Bibi ruin everything.

      • snooggums
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        25 days ago

        But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on.

        So one of the other things that is very frustrating is always being told that we just need to wait until after the next election to criticize anything. Our election cycles never seem to end.

        • eltrain123@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          You absolutely should not be waiting until the next election cycle. You should be voicing your opinion, voting in off-cycle and local elections, and voting for the least harmful option in every election, including the presidential election. It’s a huge machine and voting once every 4 years for the pre-packaged candidate isn’t an effective strategy if you actually want things to change.

          Vote for people that make things better in your community, city, county, state, and then think about federal elections. Displacing the trove of do-nothings or detrimental actors in the smaller elections will change sentiment in the parties and will change the candidates they put through in the primaries… but it will take years for that to happen.

          Either that or revolution… but that’s going to be a whole lot worse for everyone for a few decades, best case scenario.

          • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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            24 days ago

            That’s the problem. Most of the far left idealists don’t give a shit between elections. This happens every cycle. And every cycle they never learn.

            • juicy@lemmy.today
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              24 days ago

              Citation please. The most politically active people I know are well to the left of me. The handful of tankies I know in real life are the most active.

              • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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                24 days ago

                Citation? Really? Most of social media is backed up. Go ahead and see how much the SJW’s were caring about Palestine in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2023.

                You do know they have been in conflict since 1948, right? You all act like this shit is new. And it shows in the fact that NONE of you gave a shit about it until now.

                  • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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                    23 days ago

                    Keep telling yourself that. Most people claiming to be “leftwing” aren’t leftwing anyway.

                • juicy@lemmy.today
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                  24 days ago

                  “Israel’s been doing this for 76 years!” isn’t the comeback you think it is. Nor is, “Oh, genocide is where you draw the line?”

                  • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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                    24 days ago

                    So…. No response on where you were before Oct 7th? Okay, how about this.

                    What were you upset about in 2020? Or… 2016?

                    Because we know you couldn’t have been bothered to care in between those years.

                    I made my case. You all suspiciously only care during election years when Trump is posturing. And you suspiciously are only critical of his opponents.

        • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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          24 days ago

          That’s kind of how ‘self rule’ works. You’re supposed to pay attention to politics.

          People not voting is how we got in this mess in the first place.

          Why do you think the GOP’s final defense is always “both sides do it?”

            • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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              23 days ago

              TIL telling people to get involved in politics and to go out and vote is exactly the same as telling them to not criticize the government.

              • beardown@lemm.ee
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                23 days ago

                People won’t do those things unless they realize that Democratic neoliberal orthodoxy is also the enemy.

                Criticizing Biden with the goal of awakening the people should be encouraged

                • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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                  23 days ago

                  So, in a few words, tell me how you intend to reshape the entire political landscape of the United States and usurp both major Parties.

                  I’ve had folks tell me since high school that the Revolution was just around the corner, and the masses would rise and rebuild.

                  What’s so special about your plan?

                  • beardown@lemm.ee
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                    23 days ago

                    how you intend to reshape the entire political landscape of the United States

                    Unions and democratic socialism. Aka, the Sanders methodology - and, aka, the way we got the New Deal

                    The alternative is either doing nothing and allowing conditions to continue to deteriorate, or supporting an armed revolution that will be instantly massacred by the most powerful military in human history. Neither are plausible options in the face of oligarchy

        • BallotOrTheBullet@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          You and me both. Reddit literally browser finger printed my device and banned me in 2023 because I wouldn’t stop raising the flag on Biden. Now here we are and I want to do the whole told you so shit but I know more is at stake here than any other election I’ve lived through.

      • WraithGear@lemmy.world
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        24 days ago

        Bull, to the fucking shit. Genocide isn’t just something you can fucking put off. Unless you don’t really care about the genocide. Seems you’re more upset at the optics. And let’s also mention that Biden is not any more angry at the genocide than you seem to be. All his moves are token and theater and even that was only bought with mass protests and plunging confidence numbers.

        People are being genocided ‘TODAY’

        • Optional@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          Seems you’re more upset at the optics.

          I’m more upset that in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world, and a bunch of opportunistic yahoos would happily ignore it to bitch about one of the most progressive presidents we’ve had in forty years about an entirely different country’s genocide whose policies by the by is supported by that same existential motherfucking threat he’s fighting! For goddamned fuck’s SAKE what the hell is wrong with you.

          The ‘biden genicide’ crowd is absolutely performing the russian trolls’ jobs admirably. And seem to be proud of it.

          • beardown@lemm.ee
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            24 days ago

            in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world

            Everyone agrees with this

            Which is why Biden should immediately pivot on this issue and save the United States from fascism

      • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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        24 days ago

        Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit.

        It really fucking isn’t. At all. He recently went full genocide denier on Bibi’s behalf.

    • archomrade [he/him]OP
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      25 days ago

      Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.

      Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it…

      • snooggums
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        25 days ago

        Every time Bibi claims that the IDF is the most moral army in the world I roll my eyes.

    • SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
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      23 days ago

      Undermining the ICC is tradition for the USA. There’s plenty of people waiting in line to get US soldiers, officers and politicians denounced at the ICC the day they’re capable of prosecuting US citizens.

    • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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      24 days ago

      I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-

      But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.

      But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.

      • archomrade [he/him]OP
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        24 days ago

        The only reason you feel you have to pretend that it’s legitimate is because it’s true on face-value: democrats have chosen a losing position and are going to lose because of it. Rather than pledging fealty before we need to it’s far more important to work to get democrats to ammend their policy

        Wishing people would ignore the issue and hold their nose isn’t a strategy to keep Trump out, it’s denial

      • beardown@lemm.ee
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        24 days ago

        A fact of living in a liberal democracy is that residents have the right to openly criticize the government

        If that right is no longer exercisable then we are already lost

        If Dems don’t like what voters are saying then they should change their policy. Very simple solution.

        • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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          23 days ago

          You certainly are busy responding to my every comment today. Enjoying my comment history?

          And

          A fact of living in a liberal democrat is that citizens absolutely DO have that right.

          And other citizens have the right to call out the bad faith propagandists that aren’t here to criticize the government, but only to criticize ONE government official.

          You see, we all are very aware of the silence from the “far left” propagandists that pretend to be here in good faith when it comes to criticism of the right and the factually proven worse treatment Palestine will receive under Trump.

          But you don’t really care about that, do you?

          • beardown@lemm.ee
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            23 days ago

            Legitimately have no idea what this message is intended to communicate because it is poorly written.

            However, I did not notice I replied to the same commenter more than once. I was only replying to people I thought were exceptionally irrational.

            Your comments btw read like ideal versions of what the GOP would promulgate to dissuade voters from supporting Biden. So if you’re a shill, then good job; if you aren’t, then your communication skills are poor and you should try to be persuasive and likeable - both online and in real life

            • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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              23 days ago

              A right wing shill accusing me of being a shill. That’s rich. And I’m not here to be liked by people like you. Just to call them out for the ridiculous concept that not doing something will bring change- when not once in history has this ever been proven to work.

              But keep up with the propaganda- it seems some people still believe you.

              • beardown@lemm.ee
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                23 days ago

                If you think any of my posts are right wing then you’re not sophisticated enough to be commenting, let alone voting

      • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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        24 days ago

        I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities.

        “Contrary to allegations against Israel made by the International Court of Justice, what’s happening is not genocide.” - Joe Biden.

        • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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          24 days ago

          Jesus fucking Christ man. Read for the topic, now for what you want it to mean…

          No one was talking about Biden. We’re clearly talking about how the far left accuses anyone that is still voting as supporting genocide.

          • beardown@lemm.ee
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            24 days ago

            Their point is that Israel is committing genocide and Biden is abetting that genocide while also engaging in genocide denial.

            Which is political suicide for the Democrats. He has seriously miscalculated this issue and needs to recalibrate immediately. There is no other option.

              • beardown@lemm.ee
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                23 days ago

                Why would any voter take the blame for Biden committing a genocide with our tax dollars?

                • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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                  23 days ago

                  Why indeed, when you are trying so hard to get Trump elected so he can do SO much worse. Your disingenuous bad faith nonsense isn’t lost on many people here.

                  • beardown@lemm.ee
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                    23 days ago

                    Biden is committing genocide.

                    Yet, Trump is worse.

                    But Biden is committing genocide.