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How can anyone trust Facebook over this? I just don’t understand.
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Can someone explain to me why people are so violently opposed to this?
If Threads blows up, and ActivityPub is integrated, you’ll have access to all of it through any federated instance. No need to let Meta sap all your data to view it or communicate with it’s users. Meta can’t kill ActivityPub or force us onto Threads, just abandon it and leave us back where we are today. If you don’t like the Meta users, just make or join an instance that isn’t federated.
Anyone can scrape the metaverse data and use it for whatever, Meta included. Them implementing ActivityPub doesn’t change anything about that.
Look I don’t like Meta as much as the next guy, but this all just seems like illogical gatekeeping
Edit: I understand now, see: XMPP and Google. Good article someone replied to me with, down below.
People are mainly afraid of EEE (Extend, Embrace, Extinguish) playing out agian.
This article sums it up very well: https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
A monopolistic corporation joining a free (not gratis, free as in free software) network is always a hostile takeover.
That was a good read, totally changed my position. Thank you.
Would you consider editing your original post to reflect that :)
I hate this article since it compares to XMPP. A much more accurate comparison would be seething like E-mail, I believe.
I get it… I’m likely going to block meta instances from the servers I have whenever I have time to figure out how to.
I don’t see threads providing any value
How is the comparison to XMPP lacking?
Anyways, the same thing is starting to happen to E-Mail as well: http://www.igregious.com/2023/03/gmail-is-breaking-email.html?m=1
not suprised, E-mail has been on that downward spiral for a while. The only thing keeping that alive is many independent E-mail servers.
I think what people don’t want is the audience and culture that Threads is likely to bring to the fediverse, not so much Meta itself.
The audience is not the problem. Meta’s mere presence on the network will be. We are now at a critical point in the struggle to survive as a network, and it’s not looking good.
If we continue like today, the network effect (Google it) would eventually lead to ActivityPub being the de facto too-big-to-fail standard in all of the web. We aren’t there yet, though. Meta knows this too and doesn’t want it to happen, because extracting value from a diverse network is way harder than from a centralized user base. The fact that they even want to federate in the first place (shouldn’t be in their interest!) rings alarm bells.
So what do you suggest? Mass defederation from them?
Honestly, there isn’t much else we can do. Spread the word that there are better alternatives to Threads and don’t let them join us. If you prevent “If you can’t beat them, join them.” then that’s a step in the right direction (survival of the network).
I agree. There’s absolutely no way Meta is a good faith actor in this situation (based on, well, everything they’ve ever done up to this point) and if we give them an inch they’ll take the whole thing.
The only thing to be done is an immediate, full−scale shunning by as many communities as possible. Make it abundantly clear that they’re not welcome here, and they can go lie in the cesspool they already made of traditional social media.
Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me. Big corporations want mainly one thing: gobble up as much value exclusively to themselves. They will take whatever means necessary to get there. The strategies to privatize public resources (XMPP, ActivityPub, etc.) are known. They look great for the public on the outside, but over the years will erode the value for everybody BUT them. In order to not let it get as far, many (including me) are of the conviction to not even give them a finger, let alone the whole hand.
not even give them a finger
i’m willing to give them the “finger”
🖕=👍
It’s only been a few hours and they already have more users than the entire Fediverse did during its peak by yesterday after all of this recent drama. We are already fucked, I salute every one of you as the fediverse sinks.
Oh really?
Still don’t get how their do that while there is already a big coperate backing with mastodon gbmh.
Because history shows big tech companies fuck over competition and that competition is us, regular people.
We’ve gone from not interacting with them to now being their rival and a direct threat to their profits.
Step 1: Threads starts federating with mastodon
Step 2: mastodon users happily engage with threads, letting it become the biggest fediverse instance
Step 3: threads stops federating with mastodon
Step 4: mastodon users switch over to threads where all conversation is happening, leaving the fediverse deserted
More than 5 million people signed up within hours, let’s assume they will have 30 million users by the end of the month. I’m sure there are Mastodon users will consider switching to Threads.
https://www.marketing-interactive.com/meta-threads-garners-5-million-signups-in-first-few-hours
And not to mention the Threads app is a privacy nightmare. I’m sure they can figure out any fediverse user, If fediverse server remains federated with meta server.
One more thing, this mastodon server admin declined an invitation from meta
51 million already
Plus knowing meta, they’ll problary select a handful of instances to federate with. Meaning this plan is stupid.
I’ve spent way too long thinking about this.
I also might be underestimating people’s ability to actaully use a platform. Idk
Mastodon.social is the biggest instance
There’s plenty of conversation already existing. Even my single user instance is barely keeping up.
Its not like this is how federation works, federation happens in 3 ways: a person follows a user, thus getting their posts, an instance follows a relay, which gets sent posts and spreads them back out like a vaccum, and 3rd boosting posts.
I don’t see threads changing all that much if people don’t follow those accounts, and or meta doesn’t follow relays and send their posts out through relays.
I can’t figure out what meta wants to actaully do.
I can’t decipher fully.
If your a big instance and don’t want to waste bandwidth, just block them.
If you want meta, block them from the federated timeline if you desire.
No one will guide you in what to do with your fedi instance.
Plus if all a lot of people who you follow are on threads then it might be a more attractive option to just switch platforms so you can see their content again after meta defederates
But Mastodon has less users than Threads already, if someone wanted to jump ship for more conversation wouldn’t they do it already? Heck, wouldn’t they have stayed on twitter?
Plus this isn’t like its XMPP or something where people actaully care who they’re talking to. I really don’t.
It’s already happened in the past, it will happen in the future.
I guess the fear (and probable strategy for Meta) is to first establish themselves as just a reliable instance with a closed app (Threads). From there, it’s a slow crawl to bring in the users, from outside but also from other instances. They have multiple tools for this: the infinite budget to develop Threads with exclusive features, just a better app, maybe influencer friendly ad models. The list is infinite.
So where’s the rub? Meta is just introducing activity pub to more users.
The problem is two step: They’ll eventually will lock in the platform from rest of the fediverse. It’ll might be years from now but it’ll happen (unless it’s killed first if course). This hurts rest of the fediverse by making it smaller: They will hook in users that would’ve otherwise chosen another instance and now are in Meta’s side fence which has turned into a wall.
Note: Not an expert, I just like to speculate.
Do you remember what happened with gtalk and facebook messenger? They both were based on xmpp. After moving away from xmpp (what both did), I didnt have use for xmpp anymore. Honestly, Meta has given me no reason whatsoever in their whole record of existence to earn my trust.
Meta needs to be split up at this point, as do many other tech companies.
The problem with trying to break it up is that the FTC already allowed the mergers that let them get so big. They approved the purchases of Whatsapp and Instagram. Thankfully the new chair of the FTC seems to understand letting companies get this big is not good and is trying to block these things from happening in the future.
Yes, once a company is a certain size it has too much power to exploit and do a crappy job of customer service while they do it.
Yeah, right.
tHeRe’s No fUCkInG waY FaCEBooK wOULd EVER SUcKed Up aLL liFE FRom soMETHinG GOoD aNd tHEN LefT iT tO DiE WheN it’S nO LONgeR uSEfuL U guiZ!
When has this happened?
You might want to get your shift key serviced.
I can see the argument that Meta wants to kill the fediverse but I am kinda excited that we could possibly still get content from feeds that would not consider a mastodon account, even if that is a disagreeable attitude. Looking at Threads it already looks like brands “autosport, financial times” etc have setup regular posting schedules on threads so it really could be the Twitter killer.
What we know
Threads is a separate app from Facebook, WhatsApp, and Instagram. This means Threads’ user base will be separate from their existing platforms.
Well that aged like milk…
Aged? The article is recent.
It is a pretty dumb comparison, though. Dude should have done his homework.
Which corroborates Eugen either being really damn naive or a paid shill.
Remember what Google Groups did to Usenet? We should be wary.
Usenet powers my fully automated piracy server still to this day lmao what are you smoking?
Usenet used to do more than just piracy tho. But I don’t think Google groups killed that side of Usenet, did it?
Breathe life into an almost-dead format and worked hard to retrieve as much post history as possible? Yeah, I remember what Google did to Usenet. Do you?
I remember it filling groups with non-text posts which could not be read by Usenet clients, among other things.
It didn’t do anything. Usenet still exists and is active in some circles. It’s not very popular, but it’s as alive and well as it always was.
I should think there are many people who think Google Groups is Usenet, and they have to register with google to post on there. Recently I think they have removed the option to view the source of an article.
Usenet is still my primary source for uh…discounted media. I’ve had it for so long now I couldn’t even imagine not using it
I’ve looked into doing that myself before, but it seemed like a lot of work and research to get it set up
It’s pretty easy, especially if you have someone (me) that will let you see their setup or help out with any questions. Highly, highly recommend running your server on unRAID.
Can you recommend any good walk-throughs for noobs? I didn’t even know you needed a server lol
You only need a server if you plan to serve the content in a sophisticated way (like Plex). If you just watch movies on your laptop then it’s as simple as downloading the files and opening them.
Unfortunately, getting into usenet is actually not as technically hard as it is practically hard. First, some things to know about usenet:
- You pay for access to a usenet server, which has incredible speeds and doesn’t rely on uploaders. There are many out there, and good ones are easy to find.
- Because it isn’t P2P like torrents, there’s no way for the studios to know who’s been downloading anything. Typically the most they can do is send a DMCA to the servers, who auto-comply. Because of this near-anonymity, a VPN usually isn’t used. The corporations would need to subpoena the server to get any of your info, and they’re usually deliberately hosted in privacy-friendly countries.
- Now the hard part: knowing where the files you want to download exist on that usenet server, because even a small TV episode is often divided into 50+ smaller files. This is where NZBs come in. NZBs are small files that tell your usenet downloader where to find all the parts that create the bigger file. The usenet server you pay for doesn’t provide this service for legal reasons.
- Therefore, you need to also subscribe to an NZB indexer, which is where you search for NZBs for shows, movies, games, etc. Some are one lifetime payment, some are recurring. Good ones usually only open their enrollment during very small windows, so it can be really tough to get into one. This is the biggest hurdle for most people. Even finding out which indexers are out there can be tough, as people generally don’t blab about them in open forums, because they’re the most piracy-adjacent and vulnerable to being shut down.
That said, once you have a usenet server to connect to, and an indexer to find what you want, then it’s as simple as downloading the NZB file with a program like Sabnzbd, which will feel very similar to a torrent client. It downloads the various parts and combines them, so what you end up with is openable by windows (either media or exe). Everyone starts this way, and most users are probably content stopping at this stage too.
From there, however, some people get really advanced with it, like the person above running it on a separate server. There’s software out there that automates TV and Movies downloads based on your preferences and which shows you subscribe to, same with music and even ebooks. Then there’s Plex, which you may already be familiar with and which allows you to use your laptop or whatever to stream your content to phones, chromecast, etc., as well as share your content with friends to stream (requires paid sub I believe). It can be a little daunting to set everything up, but you’re mostly just following guides because it’s the same setup for everyone, minus changes in server URLs, username/password, etc. And once it’s running, it really is beautiful. A show that I subscribe to that airs on say, Wednesdays 8-9pm, is available on my Plex by like 9:30 typically, without me having to lift a finger. I even get a notification on my phone that a new episode is available.
But to be able to transcode streams to multiple people in the house? Requires a somewhat beefy processor. And to keep your huge library of shows for years and year? Requires a lot of storage. Even more so on both counts if you want everything in 4K bluray quality. And it probably needs to be a dedicated machine–can’t be gaming and transcoding from the same rig. But boy is it addicting building up your own enormous streaming service for friends and families haha. I hope you can see now why some people would get carried away with it.
Wow thanks that’s the best breakdown I’ve read! I’ve been torrenting for maybe 15 years and used to collect all the shows I watched until one day my external hard drive died and I lost everything :(
Nowadays I just delete a show after I’ve watched it, so Idon’t think I’ll worry about making my own server yet. I’ve had a look into it and think I’ll start off with NZB Geek as indexer and Frugal Usenet as a server. Drunken Slug seems pretty popular too but they don’t seem to be open for registrations atm
Not much different than torrents. With torrents you’ll need a VPN to connect through, with usenet you need a news server to connect to. Torrents need a client, so do nzbs. You have to go to an indexer to search for torrents, same thing with nzbs. Really the biggest difference is you connect to a dedicated, paid for server instead of a connection of peers.
@remindme@mstdn.social in 3 years
@InfiniWheel @brave_lemmywinks (dev here) we currently do not support setting reminders that last for years 😀
don’t know about you folks but this sounded so arrogant to me:
There was a time when users of Facebook and users of Google Talk were able to chat with each other and with people from self-hosted XMPP servers, before each platform was locked down into the silos we know today. What would stop that from repeating? Well, even if Threads abandoned ActivityPub down the line, where we would end up is exactly where we are now. XMPP did not exist on its own outside of nerd circles, while ActivityPub enjoys the support and brand recognition of Mastodon.
Totally sniffing their own farts. The “brand recognition of Mastodon”, someone might want to look at the scoreboard before saying they’re going to win the game.
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
This is a great read for anyone curious about what happens when a greedy platform that grows at all costs “helps” an open platform.
It’s weird to hear someone say “Google Chat killed Messenger apps” when it is so very clear that cell phones did that all on their own.
I respect this person’s passion, but his history is slanted, to say the very least.
That era was still too early for widespread self-hosting and people were barely discovering all that internet tech. So what Jabber/XMPP offered was still neither appealing nor user-friendly enough.
Moreover, it was Whatsapp that fixed your mobile number as your username that ruined Jabber’s momentum, not Google. Google Talk or Chat had never reached a notable market share.
Yea, I don’t think the original poster understands why google hurts XMMP, because by that logic once google left XMMP is also let at where it is at before google joined.
The issue with cooperations joining federation is they almost always have better infrastructure, they will siphon users out of the wider network with convenience. Then eventually they will forcibly leave the network with its users, because that makes them more money, at the cost of their user and everyone else on the network as we get less connectivity.
Right, the problem is more the new users - who might even have been on Mastodon/Pleroma/etc. if they didn’t hear about threads - will just go to threads. The EEE stuff comes later, and the article kind of realizes this without realising it - the EEE stuff will come maybe even years later and yet Mastodon will be where it is now. Their growth will be stunted.
Same. This was an incredibly weak defense of why this is “totally not the same” as XMPP
Why are people mad at this? Being able to communicate with Threads users from mastodon servers, is good? Right?
I think there is a risk that Threads will be massive, and so people will think that the way to get on Mastodon is Threads, and eventually that Threads is Mastodon. C/f Google Groups and Usenet.
Read this and you’ll see why people are very skeptical.
Still not convinced. If Mastodon or ActivityPub dies we’ll have Bluesky and AT. Not worried. Good to have options.
I know we all dream of having all our friends and family on the Fediverse so we can avoid proprietary networks completely. But the Fediverse is not looking for market dominance or profit. The Fediverse is not looking for growth. It is offering a place for freedom. People joining the Fediverse are those looking for freedom. If people are not ready or are not looking for freedom, that’s fine. They have the right to stay on proprietary platforms. We should not force them into the Fediverse. We should not try to include as many people as we can at all cost. We should be honest and ensure people join the Fediverse because they share some of the values behind it.
This is incredibly naive. Mastodon/ActivityPub is much more popular than XMPP was lol
Are there numbers to back this up? I remember Pidgin being a contender to replace AIM for a time.
XMPP had nearly 10 million users in 2003: https://web.archive.org/web/20071103080257/http://www.xmpp.org/xsf/press/2003-09-22.shtml)) Activitypub has about 12 million users now: https://fediverse.observer/stats
Thanks.
So not too dissimilar in terms of total numbers of users… however considering the growth of the whole internet’s user base…
760 million total worldwide internet users in 2003, vs 4.7 billion today.
Based on these sources, then, 1.3% of all internet users were using XMPP in 2003, and 0.26% of all internet users in the fediverse in 2023. As a proportion of all users, that makes XMPP roughly 5x more popular back then than ActivityPub is now.
Oh I fucking member Pidgin.
Remember Trillium? Xbox Connect?
We kept losing, and will keep losing, because billionaire megacorps simply have the money to move worlds if doing so aligns with their ‘interests’ (ie money). This hasn’t changed, and won’t change now either; the Fediverse is done for.
Fuck Facebook for ruining another good thing.
ActivityPub won’t ever “truly” die, it might lose the chance of becoming “the salvation from mega corporations running the internet” though. We’ll always have the possibility of running small-ish, tight-knit instances.
But agreed, fuck Zuckerberg and his cronies.
I don’t think it was ever going to be the salvation from mega corporations. The internet itself was touted as that, but corporations figured out how to capture and own most of it. No reason they wouldn’t do the same thing for ActivityPub if it became as common place as the Internet itself.
Yup, capitalism pushes them to try to own/incorporate everything that can either be a threat or a resource for the business.
Damn you’re depressing
When people like Zucc get involved in anything and the appropriate amount of skepticism isn’t shown, you’re left with little reason to be optimistic.
There’s a long term silver lining though. People keep learning. Constant exposure to manipulation makes us more resistent to it. Consider how much the Internet has trained you to recognize scammers, salesmen, trolls, instigators, demagogues and so on.
Excellent take, thank you for this 👏
Something something French Revolution
Enjoy it while it lasts, and don’t get too attached.
It’s an inevitable aspect of what happens when the Internet is commercialized.
Enjoy it while it lasts, and don’t get too attached.
It’s an inevitable aspect of what happens when the Internet is commercialized.
This is why we can’t have nice things. It was nice to be on platforms with no corporate stink for a brief moment.
If you’re on another server, you still have that freedom. Nothing changes unless you want it to.
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FOSS is the ultimate form of software. It’s like life, it will just get copied and forked and modified, and it will continue to evolve because it’s been set free in the world.
Yeah, Facebook might embrace-extend-extinguish the Fediverse. But on the other hand, it’s not the end of the world if they do. Right now, we have a decentralized platform to post, talk and interact on. If that changes, we will create another one
To me, the most interesting part about this is that the Fediverse is even on
Facebook’sMeta’s radar. It’s tiny. Do they see it as a possible competitor?They see it as free data. Meta will always suck data wherever they can. Remember they have a LLM engine too and lots of money and lots of data to train it on – but more’s even better. They can have swarms of bots trained to spread whatever the highest bidder wants them to spread. They can PR whitewash a brand or a celebrity, they can twist events, they can influence elections.
It was free data to begin with. It’s always been free data. All those internet posts you posted from some lame message board 25 years ago are still there. It’s probably still on Archive.org.
If you’re concerned about your privacy, don’t post shit you don’t want out there on a public forum.
They probably don’t need to make a whole platform to do this, though. Couldn’t they just slurp the data right out of ActivityPub without making Threads? Either way, I’m dismayed that meta is managing to YET AGAIN convince people that this time they’ll be good
Facebook never operated misleading bots. Companies that ran those bots utilized Facebook as their delivery method.
I think it could be a way to get around privacy laws.
Those laws quickly becomes difficult to apply when everyones posts are no longer on central servers owned by meta and instead is copied across thousands of instance owners.
But I think their primary objective is to take on Twitter and get people to use Meta instead. It doesn’t cost them much to start experimenting with the tech, and being first somewhere is always an advantage.
