- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
Instagram is profiting from several ads that invite people to create nonconsensual nude images with AI image generation apps, once again showing that some of the most harmful applications of AI tools are not hidden on the dark corners of the internet, but are actively promoted to users by social media companies unable or unwilling to enforce their policies about who can buy ads on their platforms.
While parent company Meta’s Ad Library, which archives ads on its platforms, who paid for them, and where and when they were posted, shows that the company has taken down several of these ads previously, many ads that explicitly invited users to create nudes and some ad buyers were up until I reached out to Meta for comment. Some of these ads were for the best known nonconsensual “undress” or “nudify” services on the internet.
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Seen similar stuff on TikTok.
That’s the big problem with ad marketplaces and automation, the ads are rarely vetted by a human, you can just give them money, upload your ad and they’ll happily display it. They rely entirely on users to report them which most people don’t do because they’re ads and they wont take it down unless it’s really bad.
It’s especially bad on reels/shorts for pretty much all platforms. Tons of financial scams looking to steal personal info or worse. And I had one on a Facebook reel that was for boner pills that was legit a minute long ad of hardcore porn. Not just nudity but straight up uncensored fucking.
The user reports are reviewed by the same model that screened the ad up-front so it does jack shit
Actually, a good 99% of my reports end up in the video being taken down. Whether it’s because of mass reports or whether they actually review it is unclear.
What’s weird is the algorithm still seems to register that as engagement, so lately I’ve been reporting 20+ videos a day because it keeps showing them to me on my FYP. It’s wild.
That’s a clever way of getting people to work for them as moderators.
Okay this is going to be one of the amazingly good uses of the newer multimodal AI, it’ll be able to watch every submission and categorize them with a lot more nuance than older classifier systems.
We’re probably only a couple years away from seeing a system like that in production in most social media companies.
Nice pipe dream, but the current fundamental model of AI is not and cannot be made deterministic. Until that fundamental chamge is developed, it isnt possible.
the current fundamental model of AI is not and cannot be made deterministic.
I have to constantly remind people about this very simple fact of AI modeling right now. Keep up the good work!
What do you mean? AI absolutely can be made deterministic. Do you have a source to back up your claim?
You know what’s not deterministic? Human content reviewers.
Besides, determinism isn’t important for utility. Even if AI classified an ad wrong 5% of the time, it’d still massively clean up the spammy advertisers. But they’re far, FAR more accurate than that.
https://www.sitation.com/non-determinism-in-ai-llm-output/
AI can be made deterministic, yes, absolutely.
The current design everyone is using(LLMs) cannot be made deterministic.
Again, you are wrong. Specifically ChatGPT may not be able to be deterministic since it’s a hosted service, but you absolutely can replay a prompt using the same random seed to get deterministic responses. Computer randomness isn’t truly random.
But if that’s not satisfying enough, you can also configure the temperature to be zero and system fingerprinting to always be the same, and that makes it even more deterministic, since it will always use the highest probability token.
For example, Llama can be fully deterministic. https://github.com/huggingface/transformers/issues/25507#issuecomment-1678498896
I love your wishful thinking. Too bad academia doesnt agree with you.
Edit: also, I have to come back to laugh at you for trying to argue that the almost random nature of software random number generators is deterministic AI.
Please enlighten me then. Clearly people are doing it, as proved by the link I sent. Are you simply going to ignore that? Perhaps we have different definitions of determinism.
It’s all so incredibly gross. Using “AI” to undress someone you know is extremely fucked up. Please don’t do that.
I’m going to undress Nobody. And give them sexy tentacles.
Behold my meaty, majestic tentacles. This better not awaken anything in me…
Same vein as “you should not mentally undress the girl you fancy”. It’s just a support for that. Not that i have used it.
Don’t just upload someone else’s image without consent, though. That’s even illegal in most of europe.
Why you should not mentally undress the girl you fancy (or not, what difference does it make?)? Where is the harm of it?
Where is the harm of it
there is none, that’s their point
Would it be any different if you learn how to sketch or photoshop and do it yourself?
You say that as if photoshopping someone naked isnt fucking creepy as well.
Creepy, maybe, but tons of people have done it. As long as they don’t share it, no harm is done.
I dont think that many have dude. Like sure, if you’re talking total number and not percentage, but this planet has so many people you could also claim that tons of people are pedophiles too
Lol you’d be surprised…isn’t this one of those things people would do in private but never admit in public (because of people likr you getting all touchy and creeped out by it)?
You say this like we SHOULDN’T be creeped out that you are digitally undressing someone without their permission
You can feel whatever you want.
Creepy to you, sure. But let me add this:
Should it be illegal? No, and good luck enforcing that.
You’re at least right on the enforcement part, but I dont think the illegality of it should be as hard of a no as you think it is
This is also fucking creepy. Don’t do this.
But yet, we’ve (almost) all imagined someone we know naked.
I think anyone claiming otherwisw would be lying most likely.
There is a massive difference between thoughts and action. I’m sure a significant portion of us have thought about murdering someone too, does that make actually going through with murder less bad?
This is a false equivalency. The correct analogy would be: if I think about murdering someone and then draw a picture of it or make a movie about murdering them, is that wrong?
Well I’d usually say you should go to therapy if your having vivid thoughts of murdering other people
I am not saying anyone should do it and don’t need some internet stranger to police me thankyouverymuch.
Yes, because the AI (if not local) will probably store the images on their Servers
good point
This is the only good answer.
deleted by creator
Can you articulate why, if it is for private consumption?
Consent.
You might be fine with having erotic materials made of your likeness, and maybe even of your partners, parents, and children. But shouldn’t they have right not to be objectified as wank material?
I partly agree with you though, it’s interesting that making an image is so much more troubling than having a fantasy of them. My thinking is that it is external, real, and thus more permanent even if it wouldn’t be saved, lost, hacked, sold, used for defamation and/or just shared.
To add to this:
Imagine someone would sneak into your home and steal your shoes, socks and underwear just to get off on that or give it to someone who does.
Wouldn’t that feel wrong? Wouldn’t you feel violated? It’s the same with such AI porn tools. You serve to satisfy the sexual desires of someone else and you are given no choice. Whether you want it or not, you are becoming part of their act. Becoming an unwilling participant in such a way can feel similarly violating.
They are painting and using a picture of you, which is not as you would like to represent yourself. You don’t have control over this and thus, feel violated.
This reminds me of that fetish, where one person is basically acting like a submissive pet and gets treated like one by their “master”. They get aroused by doing that in public, one walking with the other on a leash like a dog on hands and knees. People around them become passive participants of that spectactle. And those often feel violated. Becoming unwillingly, unasked a participant, either active or passive, in the sexual act of someone else and having no or not much control over it, feels wrong and violating for a lot of people.
In principle that even shares some similarities to rape.There are countries where you can’t just take pictures of someone without asking them beforehand. Also there are certain rules on how such a picture can be used. Those countries acknowledge and protect the individual’s right to their image.
Just to play devils advocate here, in both of these scenarios:
Imagine someone would sneak into your home and steal your shoes, socks and underwear just to get off on that or give it to someone who does.
This reminds me of that fetish, where one person is basically acting like a submissive pet and gets treated like one by their “master”. They get aroused by doing that in public, one walking with the other on a leash like a dog on hands and knees. People around them become passive participants of that spectactle. And those often feel violated.
The person has the knowledge that this is going on. In he situation with AI nudes, the actual person may never find out.
Again, not to defend this at all, I think it’s creepy af. But I don’t think your arguments were particularly strong in supporting the AI nudes issue.
In every chat I find about this, I see people railing against AI tools like this but I have yet to hear an argument that makes much sense to me about it. I don’t care much either way but I want a grounded position.
I care about harms to people and in general, people should be free to do what they want until it begins harming someone. And then we get to have a nuanced conversation about it.
I’ve come up with a hypothetical. Let’s say that you write naughty stuff about someone in your diary. The diary is kept in a secure place and in private. Then, a burglar breaks in and steals your diary and mails that page to whomever you wrote it about. Are you, the writer, in the wrong?
My argument would be no. You are expressing a desire in private and only through the malice of someone else was the harm done. And no, being “creepy” isn’t an argument either. The consent thing I can maybe see but again do you have a right not to be fantasized about? Not to be written about in private?
I’m interested in people’s thoughts because this argument bugs me not to have a good answer for.
Yeah it’s an interesting problem.
If we go down the path of ideas in the mind and the representations we create and visualize in our mind’s eye, to forbid people from conceiving of others sexually means there really is no justification for conceiving of people generally.
If we try to seek for a justification, where is that line drawn? What is sexual, and what is general? How do we enforce this, or at least how do we catch people in the act and shame them into stopping their behavior, especially if we don’t possess the capability of telepathy?
What is harm? Is it purely physical, or also psychological? Is there a degree of harm that should be allowed, or that is inescapable despite our best intentions?
The angle that you point out regarding writing things down about people in private can also go different ways. I write things down about my friends because my memory sucks sometimes and I like to keep info in my back pocket for when birthdays, holidays, or special occasions come. What if I collected information about people that I don’t know? What if I studied academics who died in the past to learn about their lives, like Ben Franklin? What if I investigated my neighbors by pointing cameras at their houses, or installing network sniffers or other devices to try to collect information on them? Does the degree of familiarity with those people I collect information about matter, or is the act wrong in and of itself? And do my intentions justify my actions, or do the consequences of said actions justify them?
Obviously I think it’s a good thing that we as a society try to discourage collecting information on people who don’t want that information collected, but there is a portion of our society specifically allowed to do this: the state. What makes their status deserving of this power? Can this power be used for ill and good purposes? Is there a level of cross collection that can promote trust and collaboration between the state and its public, or even amongst the public itself? I would say that there is a level where if someone or some group knows enough about me, it gets creepy.
Anyways, lots of questions and no real answers! I’d be interested in learning more about this subject, and I apologize if I steered the convo away from sexual harassment and violation. Consent extends to all parts of our lives, but sexual consent does seem to be a bigger problem given the evidence of this post. Looking forward to learning more!
I think we’ve just stumbled on an issue where the rubber meets the road as far as our philosophies about privacy and consent. I view consent as important mostly in areas that pertain to bodily autonomy right? So we give people the rights to use our likeness for profit or promotion or distribution. And what we’re giving people is a mental permission slip to utilize the idea of the body or the body itself for specific purposes.
However, I don’t think that these things really pertain to private matters. Because the consent issue only applies when there are potential effects on the other person. Like if I talk about celebrities and say that imagining a celebrity sexually does no damage because you don’t know them, I think most people would agree. And so if what we care about is harm, there is no potential for harm.
With surveillance matters, the consent does matter because we view breaching privacy as potential harm. The reason it doesn’t apply to AI nudes is that privacy is not being breached. The photos aren’t real. So it’s just a fantasy of a breach of privacy.
So for instance if you do know the person and involve them sexually without their consent, that’s blatantly wrong. But if you imagine them, that doesn’t involve them at all. Is it wrong to create material imaginations of someone sexually? I’d argue it’s only wrong if there is potential for harm and since the tech is already here, I actually view that potential for harm as decreasing in a way. The same is true nonsexually. Is it wrong to deepfake friends into viral videos and post them on twitter? Can be. Depends. But do it in private? I don’t see an issue.
The problem I see is the public stuff. People sharing it. And it’s already too late to stop most of the private stuff. Instead we should focus on stopping AI porn from being shared and posted and create higher punishments for ANYONE who does so. The impact of fake nudes and real nudes is very similar, so just take them similarly seriously.
What I find interesting is that for me personally, writing the fantasy down (rather than referring to it) is against the norm, a.k.a. weird, but not wrong.
Painting a painting of it is weird and iffy, hanging it in your home is not ok.
It’s strange how it changes along that progression, but I can’t rightly say why.
The person has the knowledge that this is going on.
Not necessarily, no. It could be that they might just think they’ve misplaced their socks. If you’ve lived in an apartment building with shared laundry spaces, it’s not so uncommon to loose some minor parts of clothing. But just because they don’t get to know about it, it’s not less wrong or should be less illegal.
In he situation with AI nudes, the actual person may never find out.
Also in connection with my remarks before:
A lot of our laws also apply even if no one is knowingly damaged (yet). (May of course depend on the legislation of wherever you live.)
Already intending to commit a crime can sometimes be reason enough to bring someone to court.
We can argue how much sense that makes of course, but at the current state, we, as a society, decided that doing certain things should be illegal, even if the damage has not manifested yet. And I see many good points to handle it that way with such AI porn tools as well.
Traumatizing rape victims with non consentual imagery of them naked and doing sexual things with others and sharing it is totally not going yo fuck up the society even more and lead to a bunch of suicides! /s
Ai is the future. The future is dark.
tbf, the past and present are pretty dark as well
That’s why we need strong legislation. Most countries wordlwide are missing crucial time frames for making such laws. At least some are catching up, like the EU did recently with their first AI act.
it is external, real, and thus more permanent
Though just like your thoughts, the AI is imagining the nude parts aswell because it doesn’t actually know what they look like. So it’s not actually a nude picture of the person. It’s that person’s face on a entirely fictional body.
But the issue is not with the AI tool, it’s with the human wielding it for their own purposes which we find questionable.
An exfriend of mine Photoshopped nudes of another friend. For private consumption. But then someone found that folder. And suddenly someones has to live with the thought that these nudes, created without their consent, were used as spank bank material. Its pretty gross and it ended the friendship between the two.
You can still be wank material with just your Facebook pictures.
Nobody can stop anybody from wanking on your images, AI or not.
Thats already weird enough, but there is a meaningful difference between nude pictures and clothed pictures. If you wanna whack one to my fb pics of me looking at a horse, ok, weird. Dont fucking create actual nude pictures of me.
Louis CK has also sexually harassed a number of women( jerking off in front of unwilling viewers)…
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
If you have to ask, you’re already pretty skeevy.
The fact that you do not even ask such questions, shows that you are narrow minded. Such mentality leads to people thinking that “homosexuality is bad” and never even try to ask why, and never having chance of changing their mind.
They cannot articulate why. Some people just get shocked at “shocking” stuff… maybe some societal reaction.
I do not see any issue in using this for personal comsumption. Yes, I am a woman. And yes people can have my fucking AI generated nudes as long as they never publish it online and never tell me about it.
The problem with these apps is that they enable people to make these at large and leave them to publish them freely wherever. This is where the dabger lies. Not in people jerking off to a picture of my fucking cunt alone in a bedroom.
Mhmm. Cool.
And if you have to say that, you’re already sounding like some judgy jerk.
It’s creepy and can lead to obsession, which can lead to actual harm for the individual.
I don’t think it should be illegal, but it is creepy and you shouldn’t do it. Also, sharing those AI images/videos could be illegal, depending on how they’re represented (e.g. it could constitute libel or fraud).
I disagree. I think it should be illegal. (And stay that way in countries where it’s already illegal.) For several reasons. For example, you should have control over what happens with your images. Also, it feels violating to become unwillingly and unasked part of the sexual act of someone else.
That sounds problematic though. If someone takes a picture and you’re in it, how do they get your consent to distribute that picture? Or are they obligated to cut out everyone but those who consent? What does that mean for news orgs?
That seems unnecessarily restrictive on the individual.
At least in the US (and probably lots of other places), any pictures taken where there isn’t a reasonable expectation of privacy (e.g. in public) are subject to fair use. This generally means I can use it for personal use pretty much unrestricted, and I can use it publicly in a limited capacity (e.g. with proper attribution and not misrepresented).
Yes, it’s creepy and you’re justified in feeling violated if you find out about it, but that doesn’t mean it should be illegal unless you’re actually harmed. And that barrier is pretty high to protect peoples’ rights to fair use. Without fair use, life would suck a lot more than someone doing creepy things in their own home with pictures of you.
So yeah, don’t do creepy things with other pictures of other people, that’s just common courtesy. But I don’t think it should be illegal, because the implications of the laws needed to get there are worse than the creepy behavior of a small minority of people.
Can you provide an example of when a photo has been taken that breaches the expectation of privacy that has been published under fair use? The only reason I could think that would work is if it’s in the public interest, which would never really apply to AI/deepfake nudes of unsuspecting victims.
I’m not really sure how to answer that. Fair use is a legal term that limits the “expectation of privacy” (among other things), so by definition, if a court finds it to be fair use, it has also found that it’s not a breach of the reasonable expectation of privacy legal standard. At least that’s my understanding of the law.
So my best effort here is tabloids. They don’t serve the public interest (they serve the interested public), and they violate what I consider a reasonable expectation of privacy standard, with my subjective interpretation of fair use. But I disagree with the courts quite a bit, so I’m not a reliable standard to go by, apparently.
Fair use laws relate to intellectual property, privacy laws relate to an expectation of privacy.
I’m asking when has fair use successfully defended a breach of privacy.
Tabloids sometimes do breach privacy laws, and they get fined for it.
Would you like if someone were to make and wank to these pictures of your kids, wife or parents ? The fact that you have to ask speaks much about you tho.
There are plenty of things I might not like that aren’t illegal.
I’m interested in thr thought experiment this has brought up, but I don’t want us to get caught in a reactionary fervor because of AI.
AI will make this easier to do, but people have been clipping magazines and celebrities have had photoshops fakes created since both mediums existed. This isn’t new, but it is being commoditized.
My take is that these pictures shouldn’t be illegal to own or create, but they should be illegal to profit off of and distribute, meaning these tools specifically designed and marketed for it would be banned. If someone wants to tinker at home with their computer, yoipl never be able to ban that, and you’ll never be able to ban sexual fantasy.
I think it should be illigal even photoshops of celebs they too are human and have emotions.
I get that it’s creepy but that’s a dark path you want to walk down. Think about how that would have to be enforced.
I would say like how cp is enforced as some of these ai fakes might even involve kids .
That’s a great example though, because truthfully digital cp is incredibly difficult to enforce, and some of the laws that have been proposed to make it easier have been incredibly controversial due to how violating they are to people’s privacy.
The fact that people don’t realize how these things can be used for bad and weaponized is insane. I mean, it shows they clearly are not part of the vulnerable group of people and their privilege of never having dealt with it.
The future is amazing! Everyone with apps going to the parks and making some kids nude. Or bullying which totally doesn’t happen in fucked up ways with all the power of the internet already.
Yet another example of multi billion dollar companies that don’t curate their content because it’s too hard and expensive. Well too bad maybe you only profit 46 billion instead of 55 billion. Boo hoo.
It’s not that it’s too expensive, it’s that they don’t care. They won’t do the right thing until and unless they are forced to, or it affects their bottom line.
Wild that since the rise of the internet it’s like they decided advertising laws don’t apply anymore.
But Copyright though, it absolutely does, always and everywhere.
An economic entity cannot care, I don’t understand how people expect them to. They are not human
Economic Entities aren’t robots, they’re collections of people engaged in the act of production, marketing, and distribution. If this ad/product exists, its because people made it exist deliberately.
No they are slaves to the entity.
They can be replaced
Everyone from top to bottom can be replaced
And will be unless they obey the machine’s will
It’s crazy talk to deny this fact because it feels wrong
It’s just the truth and yeah, it’s wrong
Everyone from top to bottom can be replaced
Once you enter the actual business sector and find out how much information is siloed or sequestered in the hands of a few power users, I think you’re going to be disappointed to discover this has never been true.
More than one business has failed because a key member of the team left, got an ill-conceived promotion, or died.
Your example is 9 billion difference. This would not cost 9 billion. It wouldn’t even cost 1 billion.
Yeah realistically you’re talking about a team of 10 to 30 people whose entire job is to give the final thumbs up or thumbs down to an ad.
You’re talking one to three million dollars a year, maybe throw an extra million on for the VP.
Chump change, they just don’t want to pay it cuz nobody’s forcing them to
It would take more than 10-30 to run a content review department for any of the major social media firms, but your point still stands that it wouldn’t be a billion annually. A few 10s of millions between wages/benefits/equipment/software all combined annually
Shouldn’t AI be good at detecting and flagging ads like these?
“Shouldn’t AI be good” nah.
Build an AI that will flag immoral ads and potentially lose you revenue
Build an AI to say you’re using AI to moderate ads but it somehow misses the most profitable bad actors
Which do you think Meta is doing?
Well too bad maybe you only profit 46 billion instead of 55 billion.
I can’t possibly imagine this quality of clickbait is bringing in $9B annually.
Maybe I’m wrong. But this feels like the sort of thing a business does when its trying to juice the same lemon for the fourth or fifth time.
It’s not that the clickbait is bringing in $9B, it’s that it would cost $9B to moderate it.
Intersting how we can “undress any girl” but I have not seen a tool to “undress any boy” yet. 😐
I don’t know what it says about people developing those tools. (I know, in fact)
Make one :P
Then I suspect you’ll find the answer is money. The ones for women simply just make more money.
This
I’ve seen a tool like that. Everyone was a bodybuilder and Hung like a horse.
I’m going to guess all the ones of women have bolt on tiddies and no pubic hair.
Well of course. Sagging breasts are gross /s
Thats what we all look like.
Don’t check though
Gotta wonder where they get their horse dick training images from
notices ur instance
Can’t judge though, I have a Chance myself lawl
pff no exotic-erotics?
Not yet! Nothing really tickled my fancy from there that I haven’t already got similar from BD. Haven’t looked in a while, though!
pffff
as if furries are the only ones obsessed with horse dicks
Be the change you wish to see in the world
\s
You probably don’t need them. You can get these photos without even trying. Is a bit of a problem really.
You probably can with the same inpainting stable diffusion tools, it’s just not as heavily advertised.
Probably because the demand is not big or visible enough to make the development worth it, yet.
You don’t need to make fake nudes of guys - you can just ask. Hell, they’ll probably send you one even without asking.
In general women aren’t interested in that anyway and gay guys don’t need it because, again, you can just ask.
This is simultaneously a gross generalization and strangely accurate and I hate you for it
What it says is that there isn’t any demand for seeing boys naked. We simply look worse because we fucked up evolution.
It remains fascinating to me how these apps are being responded to in society. I’d assume part of the point of seeing someone naked is to know what their bits look like, while these just extrapolate with averages (and likely, averages of glamor models). So we still dont know what these people actually look like naked.
And yet, people are still scorned and offended as if they were.
Technology is breaking our society, albeit in place where our culture was vulnerable to being broken.
And yet, people are still scorned and offended as if they were.
I think you are missing the plot here… If a naked pic of yourself, your mother, your wife, your daughter is circulating around the campus, work or just online… Are you really going to be like “lol my nipples are lighter and they don’t know” ??
You may not get that job, promotion, entry into program, etc. The harm done by naked pics in public would just as real weather the representation is accurate or not … And that’s not even starting to talk about the violation of privacy and overall creepiness of whatever people will do with that pic of your daughter out there
I believe their point is that an employer logically shouldn’t care if some third party fabricates an image resembling you. We still have an issue with latent puritanism, and this needs to be addressed as we face the reality of more and more convincing fakes of images, audio, and video.
I agree… however, we live in the world we live in, where employers do discriminate as much as they can before getting in trouble with the law
I think the only thing we can do is to help out by calling this out. AI fakes are just advanced gossip, and people need to realize that.
But it doesn’t. Nobody who is harassed or has their prospects undermined because of AI fakes is helped by repeating that. Especially because as the technology advances the only way to verify its legitimacy will be to compare it with real intimate pictures, which the person cannot show without being exposed to the exact same treatment.
It also doesn’t help that gossip can do all that harm as well so the point is moot.
Trying to point out that this is illogical and that nudes shouldn’t even be such a big deal is an uphill battle against human emotional, social and cultural tendencies. It would take much more than some offhand comments to affect it at all, and I wouldn’t count on that shift happening before the harms of AI fakes spread.
The ubiquity of AI fakes will necessitate a cultural shift. Honestly, the world is going to be a nightmare of misinformation soon and nudes may very well be the least of our worries.
What other options do we have? An ironclad verification system for any fabricated content? Wildly harsh penalties for all caught creating it? The ship has sailed - we won’t be able to prevent it from happening.
I’d argue that overexposure will make people quickly become accustomed/nonplussed at information we don’t believe to be true and verify with the source. Look at how we treat other fabricated content - if I showed you a screencap of the Pope saying “Fuck” you’d want to verify with a source directly.
Does it seem to you that people are becoming more likely to verify sources?
Nevermind, like I just said before, how exactly do you verify fake porn with the source? Who is going to be volunteering their intimate pictures as reference? Or, do you really think all that it takes to avoid all issues is for the victim to say “that’s fake, it’s not me”?
Frankly, that sounds like pure wishful thinking to me.
Well I think the whole point of this post is that the world is changing towards this being the norm. If an employer says they’re not hiring me because of a nude photo, I’m just going to post 500 nudes of them and ask how they feel about it now 😂
It’s a race to the bottom then ;-)
This might even provide cover for those with real nude photos circulating
This is a transitional period issue. In a couple of years you can just say AI made it even if it’s a real picture and everyone will believe you. Fake nudes are in no way a new thing anyway. I used to make dozens of these by request back in my edgy 4chan times 15 years ago.
Dead internet.
It also means in a few years, any terrible thing someone does will just be excused as a “deep fake” if you have the resources and any terrible thing someone wants to pin on you with be cooked up in seconds. People wont just blanket believe or disbelieve any possible deep fake. They’ll cherry pick what to believe based on their preexisting world view and how confident the story telling comes across.
As far as your old edits go, if they’re anything like the ones I saw, they were terrible and not believable at all.
I’m still on the google prompt bandwagon of typing this query:
stuff i am searching for before:2023… or ideally, even before COVID19, if you want more valuable, less tainted results. It’s only going to get worse from here, 2024 is the year of saturation with garbage data on the web (yes I know it was already bad before, but now AI is pumping this shit out at an industrial scale.)People do that now, even without the excuses of ai deepfakes. They simply ignore the stuff that doesn’t fit their worldview, only focusing on what does.
Ai stuff may make that easier, but it certainly won’t be some new problem.
This is a transitional period issue. In a couple of years you can just say AI made it even if it’s a real picture and everyone will believe you.
Sure, but the question of whether they harm the victim is still real… if your prospective employer finds tons of pics of you with nazi flags, guns and drugs… they may just “play it safe” and pass on you… no matter how much you claim (or even the employer might think) they are fakes
“Fools! Everybody at my school is laughing at me for having a 2-incher, but little do they know it actually curves to the LEFT!”
Lol
Mine curves to the left.
On the other end, I welcome the widespread creation of these of EVERYONE, so that it becomes impossible for them to be believable. No one should be refused from a job/promotion because of the existence of a real one IMO and this will give plausible deniability.
People are refused for jobs/promotions on the most arbitrary basis, often against existing laws but they are impossible to enforce.
Even if it is normalized, there is always the escalation factor… sure, nobody won’t hire Anita because of her nudes out there, everyone has them and they are probably fake right?.. but Perdita? hmmm I don’t want my law firm associated in any way with her pics of tentacle porn, that’s just too much!
Making sure we are all in the gutter is not really a good way to deal with this issue… specially since it will, once again, impact women 100x more than it will affect men
This is a consideration that a lot of people are glossing over. Schlubby dudes might not even be affected to it at all. It’s not going to be widespread for everyone.
How should we deal with this issue then? I’m not sure what can be done about it.
That’s a good question… I’m not an expert in this area but I do think it should be criminalized to a certain extent (even if it’s hard to enforce)
Probably legislation should out some onus on the makers of these tools as well
Post your clothed full body pic
Yeah, let’s just sexually violate everyone. /s
Who the hell is upvoting this awful take? Please understand that it would never be equitable. If this became reality, it would be women and girls that were exploited the most viciously.
I guess if you don’t give a shit about people, especially women and girls, feeling safe in public at all, you would say something like this…
It’s already possible. Do you want to make it punishable by jail time? How do you prove some anon on 4chan that posts nudes of someone else actually deepfaked it?
I don’t see how this can otherwise be contained.
Do you want to make it punishable by jail time?
Yes, sex crimes deserve harsh punishments.
How do you prove some anon on 4chan that posts nudes of someone else actually deepfaked it?
It’s either deepfaked, or revenge porn. Whichever charge sticks. If 4chan refuses to unmask anons posting illegal content, throw the book at 4chan. Way overdue anyway.
I don’t see how this can otherwise be contained.
See previous two answers.
Okay if you want to make everything punishable by law then we simply fundamentally disagree.
Okay if you want to make everything punishable by law then we simply fundamentally disagree.
Something like this could be career ending for me. Because of the way people react. “Oh did you see Mrs. Bee on the internet?” Would have to change my name and move three towns over or something. That’s not even considering the emotional damage of having people download you. Knowledge that “you” are dehumanized in this way. It almost takes the concept of consent and throws it completely out the window. We all know people have lewd thoughts from time to time, but I think having a metric on that…it would be so twisted for the self-image of the victim. A marketplace for intrusive thoughts where anyone can be commodified. Not even celebrities, just average individuals trying to mind their own business.
Exactly. I’m not even shy, my boobs have been out plenty and I’ve sent nudes all that. Hell I met my wife with my tits out. But there’s a wild difference between pictures I made and released of my own will in certain contexts and situations vs pictures attempting to approximate my naked body generated without my knowledge or permission because someone had a whim.
I think this is why it’s going to be interesting to see how we navigate this as a society. So far, we’ve done horribly. It’s been over a century now that we’ve acknowledged sexual harassment in the workplace is a problem that harms workers (and reduces productivity) and yet it remains an issue today (only now we know the human resources department will protect the corporate image and upper management by trying to silence the victims).
What deepfakes and generative AI does is make it easy for a campaign staffer, or an ambitious corporate later climber with a buddy with knowhow, or even a determined grade-school student to create convincing media and publish it on the internet. As I note in the other response, if a teen’s sexts get reported to law enforcement, they’ll gladly turn it into a CSA production and distribution issue and charge the teens themselves with serious felonies with long prison sentences. Now imagine if some kid wanted to make a rival disappear. Heck, imagine the smart kid wanting to exact revenge on a social media bully, now equipped with the power of generative AI.
The thing is, the tech is out of the bag, and as with princes in the mid-east looking at cloned sheep (with deteriorating genetic defects) looking to create a clone of himself as an heir, humankind will use tech in the worst, most heinous possible ways until we find cause to cease doing so. (And no, judicial punishment doesn’t stop anyone). So this is going to change society, whether we decide collectively that sexuality (even kinky sexuality) is not grounds to shame and scorn someone, or that we use media scandals the way Italian monastics and Russian oligarchs use poisons, and scandalize each other like it’s the shootout at O.K. Corral.
Thanks, I liked this reply. There is a lot of nuance here.
I think you might be overreacting, and if you’re not, then it says much more about the society we are currently living in than this particular problem.
I’m not promoting AI fakes, just to be clear. That said, AI is just making fakes easier. If you were a teacher (for example) and you’re so concerned that a student of yours could create this image that would cause you to pick up and move your life, I’m sad to say they can already do this and they’ve been able to for the last 10 years.
I’m not saying it’s good that a fake, or an unsubstantiated rumor of an affair, etc can have such big impacts on our life, but it is troubling that someone like yourself can fear for their livelihood over something so easy for anyone to produce. Are we so fragile? Should we not worry more about why our society is so prudish and ostracizing to basic human sexuality?
None of that is relevant. The issue being discussed here isn’t one of whether or not it’s currently possible to create fake nudes.
The original post being replied to indicated that, since AI, an artist, a photoshopper, whatever, is just creating an imaginary set of genitalia, and they have no ability to know if it’s accurate or not, there is no damage being done. That’s what people are arguing about.
The society we are living in can be handling things incorrectly but it can absolutely have real-world damaging effects. As a collective we should worry about our society, but individuals absolutely are and should be justified in worrying about their lives being damaged by this.
Wtf are you even talking about? People should have the right to control if they are “approximated” as nude. You can wax poetic how it’s not nessecarily correct but that’s because you are ignoring the woman who did not consent to the process. Like, if I posted a nude then that’s on the internet forever. But now, any picture at all can be made nude and posted to the internet forever. You’re entirely removing consent from the equation you ass.
I’m not arguing whether people should or should not have control over whether others can produce a nude (or lewd) likeness or perpetuate false scandal, only that this technology doesn’t change the equation. People have been accused of debauchery and scorned long before the invention of the camera, let alone digital editing.
Julia the Elder was portrayed (poorly, mind you) in sexual congress on Roman graffiti. Marie Antoinette was accused of a number of debauched sexual acts she didn’t fully comprehend. Marie Antoinette actually had an uninteresting sex life. It was accusations of The German Vice (id est lesbianism) that were the most believable and quickened her path to the guillotine.
The movie, The Contender (2000) addresses the issue with happenstance evidence. A woman politician was caught on video inflagrante delicto at a frat party in her college years just as she was about to be appointed as a replacement Vice President.
Law enforcement still regards sexts between underage teens as child porn, and our legal system will gladly incarcerate those teens for the crime of expressing their intimacy to their lovers. (Maine, I believe, is the sole exception, having finally passed laws to let teens use picture messaging to court each other.) So when it comes to the intersection of human sexuality and technology, so far we suck at navigating it.
To be fair, when it comes to human sexuality at all, US society sucks at navigating it. We still don’t discuss consent in grade school. I can’t speak for anywhere else in the world, though I’ve not heard much good news.
The conversation about revenge porn (which has been made illegal without the consent of all participants in the US) appears to inform how society regards explicit content of private citizens. I can’t speak to paparazzi content. Law hasn’t quite caught up with Photoshop, let alone deepfakes and content made with generative AI systems.
But my point was, public life, whether in media, political, athletic or otherwise, is competitive and involves rivalries that get dirty. Again, if we, as a species actually had the capacity for reason, we would be able to choose our cause célèbre with rationality, and not judge someone because some teenager prompted a genAI platform to create a convincing scandalous video.
I think we should be above that, as a society, but we aren’t. My point was that I don’t fully understand the mechanism by which our society holds contempt for others due to circumstances outside their control, a social behavior I find more abhorrent than using tech to create a fictional image of someone in the buff for private use.
Sadly, fictitious explicit media can be as effective as a character assassination tool as the real thing. I think it should be otherwise. I think we should be better than that, but we’re not. I am, consequently frustrated and disappointed with my society and my species. And while I think we’re going to need to be more mature about it, I’ve opined this since high school in the 1980s and things have only gotten worse.
At the same time, it’s like the FGC-9, the tech cannot be contained any than we can stop software piracy with DRM. Nor can we trust the community at large to use it responsibly. So yes, you can expect explicit media of colleagues to fly much the way accusations of child sexual assault flew in the 1990s (often without evidence in middle and upper management. It didn’t matter.) And we may navigate it pretty much the same way, with the same high rate of career casualties.
Totally get your frustration, but people have been imagining, drawing, and photoshopping people naked since forever. To me the problem is if they try and pass it off as real. If someone can draw photorealistic pieces and drew someone naked, we wouldn’t have the same reaction, right?
I don’t think you are accounting for ease of use. It took time and skill for an individual to photoshop someone else. This is just an app. It takes more effort to prove the truth, then it does to create a lie. Not to mention, how in the other article it explains that people are using this to bait children. :/
It takes more effort to prove the truth, then it does to create a lie.
And this universal truth, that’s existed since the dawn of time, will now have to be reckoned with. The ease of use is exactly its undoing as something that has power over us. When anyone can do it, it all just becomes background noise.
You don’t think it’s easy for someone to simply imagine another naked? That’s no different than this - it’s all a fantasy. None of it’s real.
There is a huge ass difference between your imagination and REAL MEDIA using my face. This is a absolute bullshit justification.
How? In my mind, for this scenario, I can picture your face literally perfectly. It is, for all intents and purposes, your real face. In this case what I imagine in my head is identical to what some ai model would churn out.
Is a picture no different than an immigration? Is CGI not a picture because it used a computer?
Of course not because REAL MEDIA is being produced. Your thoughts never leave your head, these images are being used to harass and blackmail women. Your argument is completely asinine.
It takes years of pratice to draw photorealism, and days if not weeks to draw a particular piece. Which is absolutely not the same to any jackass with an net connection and 5 minutes to create a equally/more realistic version.
It’s really upsetting that this argument keeps getting brought up. Because while guys are being philosophical about how it’s therotically the same thing, women are experiencing real world harm and harassment from these services. Women get fired for having nudes, girls are being blackmailed and bullied with this shit.
But since it’s theoretically always been possible somehow churning through any woman you find on Instagram isn’t an issue.
Totally get your frustration
Do you? Since you aren’t threatened by this, yet another way for women to be harassed is just a fun little thought experiment.
Well that’s exactly the point from my perspective. It’s really shitty here in the stage of technology where people are falling victim to this. So I really understand people’s knee jerk reaction to throw on the brakes. But then we’ll stay here where women are being harassed and bullied with this kind of technology. The only paths forward, theoretically, are to remove it all together or to make it ubiquitous background noise. Removing it all together, in my opinion, is practically impossible.
So my point is that a picture from an unverified source can never be taken as truth. But we’re in a weird place technologically, where unfortunately it is. I think we’re finally reaching a point where we can break free of that. If someone sends me a nude with my face on it like, “Is this you?!!”. I’ll send them one back with their face like, “Is tHiS YoU?!??!”.
We’ll be in a place where we as a society cannot function taking everything we see on the internet as truth. Not only does this potentially solve the AI nude problem, It can solve the actual nude leaks / revenge porn, other forms of cyberbullying, and mass distribution of misinformation as a whole. The internet hasn’t been a reliable source of information since its inception. The problem is, up until now, its been just plausible enough that the gullible fall into believing it.
An artist doesn’t need your consent to paint/ draw you. A photographer doesn’t need your consent if your in public. You likely posted your original picture in public (yay facebook). Unfortunately consent was never a concern here… and you likely gave it anyway.
Are you seriously saying that since I am walking in public I am giving concent to photos taken of me and turned nude?
You’ve lost your damn mind.
Nope. Quite the opposite in that consent is not required.
Edit: You have no right to restrict someone else from taking photos and videos while in public. Period. Their purpose and use doesn’t matter (commercial usage can be limited to some extents). https://lifehacker.com/know-your-rights-photography-in-public-5912250
There are limits regarding the right to take pictures in public. Instances of creepshot photographers have raised issues of good faith. For-purpose media (a street scene in the news, for instance, requires that any foreground person must have consent, or must be censored out.
So, dependjng on your state and county (or nation) it may be a crime to take pictures of someone else with an intent to use them as a foreground element without their consent (explicit or otherwise).
There are limits regarding the right to take pictures in public.
This is why I said this…
commercial usage can be limited to some extents
But let’s look at it this way…
https://www.earthcam.com/world/ireland/dublin/?cam=templebar
https://www.earthcam.com/usa/florida/lauderdalebythesea/town/?cam=lbts_beach
https://www.earthcam.com/usa/florida/naples/?cam=naplespier
https://www.earthcam.com/world/southkorea/seoul/songridangil/?cam=songridan_gil
https://www.earthcam.com/world/israel/jerusalem/?cam=jerusalemSo why is nothing on this site blurred? If there are “limits” why is there literally cameras being streamed of public places that can have faces in the foreground pretty clearly without consent. EVEN CHILDREN! WHO WILL THINK OF THE CHILDREN! (/s) Earthcam makes money doing this…
How about literally every company with a security camera?
Instances of creepshot photographers have raised issues of good faith.
This is never litigated under the issue of pictures in public. This is always done under stalking/harassment laws. None of them are ever just “He took a picture that I’m in”.
How about if I buy stock photos and feed that into the AI system. Does that count since they didn’t intend for that to be it’s use? “Creepy” and “morally wrong” isn’t necessarily illegal. The concern isn’t the public photography and actually ownership of the photo belongs to the person who takes the photos not the subjects in the photo. So yes, you don’t particularly have much recourse unless you can prove damages that falls under some other law. Case and point Paparazzi… I mean there’s literally been lawsuits where the settlement was in favor of the photographer AGAINST the subject https://sports-entertainment.brooklaw.edu/media/a-new-type-of-internet-troll-how-paparazzi-use-copyright-law-to-cash-out-on-celebritys-instagram-posts/ She used a photo on her insta from that paparazzi, the paparazzi sued, settlement was reached and the photo was removed. She didn’t have license to use that photo, even though it’s her in the picture. You can find this shit literally everywhere. We’ve already litigated this to death. Now we all think that paparazzi are generally scum… but that doesn’t make it illegal.
What is new here is does an AI generated thing count as something special on it’s own in a legal perspective. The act of obtaining pictures while in public is not really a debate even if they were obtained to create a derivative work. I fall on the side of the AI generated thing being fair use. It’s a transformation of the original work and doesn’t violate your actual privacy (certainly not any more than taking pictures of a nude beach). IMO any other stance would negate so much other shit that we all rely on (meme-culture specifically) that it’s hypocritical to hold any other stance. Do I like that… Not really, but it doesn’t make sense otherwise.
The draw to these apps is that the user can exploit anyone they want. It’s not really about sex, it’s about power.
Human society is about power. It is because we can’t get past dominance hierarchy that our communities do nothing about schoolyard bullies, or workplace sexual harassment. It is why abstinence-only sex-ed has nothing positive to say to victims of sexual assault, once they make it clear that used goods are used goods.
Our culture agrees by consensus that seeing a woman naked, whether a candid shot, caught inflagrante delicto or rendered from whole cloth by a generative AI system, redefines her as a sexual object, reducing her qualifications as a worker, official or future partner. That’s a lot of power to give to some guy with X-ray Specs, and it speaks poorly of how society regards women, or human beings in general.
We disregard sex workers, too.
Violence sucks, but without the social consensus the propagates sexual victimhood, it would just be violence. Sexual violence is extra awful because the rest of society actively participates in making it extra awful.
Dude I can imagine people naked in my head.
Yes I think this ai trend is sad and people who use these service, it says a lot about what kind of person they are. And it also says a lot about what kind of company meta is.
I suspect it’s more affecting for younger people who don’t really think about the fact that in reality, no one has seen them naked. Probably traumatizing for them and logic doesn’t really apply in this situation.
Does it really matter though? “Well you see, they didn’t actually see you naked, it was just a photorealistic approximation of what you would look like naked”.
At that point I feel like the lines get very blurry, it’s still going to be embarrassing as hell, and them not being “real” nudes is not a big comfort when having to confront the fact that there are people masturbating to your “fake” nudes without your consent.
I think in a few years this won’t really be a problem because by then these things will be so widespread that no one will care, but right now the people being specifically targeted by this must not be feeling great.
It depends where you are in the world. In the Middle East, even a deepfake of you naked could get you killed if your family is insane.
It depends very much on the individual apparently. I don’t have a huge data set but there are girls that I know that have had this has happened to them, and some of them have just laughed it off and really not seemed like they cared. But again they were in their mid twenties not 18 or 19.
So we still dont know what these people actually look like naked.
I think the offense is in the use of their facial likeness far more than their body.
If you took a naked super-sized barbie doll and plastered Taylor Swift’s face on it, then presented it to an audience for the purpose of jerking off, the argument “that’s not what Taylor’s tits look like!” wouldn’t save you.
Technology is breaking our society
Unregulated advertisement combined with a clickbait model for online marketing is fueling this deluge of creepy shit. This isn’t simply a “Computers Evil!” situation. Its much more that a handful of bad actors are running Silicon Valley into the ground.
Not so much computers evil! as just acknowledging there will always be malicious actors who will find clever ways to use technology to cause harm. And yes, there’s a gathering of folk on 4Chan/b who nudify (denudify?) submitted pictures, usually of people they know, which, thanks to the process, puts them out on the internet. So this is already a problem.
Think of Murphy’s Law as it applies to product stress testing. Eventually, some customer is going to come in having broke the part you thought couldn’t be broken. Also, our vast capitalist society is fueled by people figuring out exploits in the system that haven’t been patched or criminalized (see the subprime mortgage crisis of 2008). So we have people actively looking to utilize technology in weird ways to monetize it. That folds neatly like paired gears into looking at how tech can cause harm.
As for people’s faces, one of the problems of facial recognition as a security tool (say when used by law enforcement to track perps) is the high number of false positives. It turns out we look a whole lot like each other. Though your doppleganger may be in another state and ten inches taller / shorter. In fact, an old (legal!) way of getting explicit shots of celebrities from the late 20th century was to find a look-alike and get them to pose for a song.
As for famous people, fake nudes have been a thing for a while, courtesy of Photoshop or some other digital photo-editing set combined with vast libraries of people. Deepfakes have been around since the late 2010s. So even if generative AI wasn’t there (which is still not great for video in motion) there are resources for fabricating content, either explicit or evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors.
This is why we are terrified of AI getting out of hand, not because our experts don’t know what they’re doing, but because the companies are very motivated to be the first to get it done, and that means making the kinds of mistakes that cause pipeline leakage on sacred Potawatomi tribal land.
This is why we are terrified of AI getting out of hand
I mean, I’m increasingly of the opinion that AI is smoke and mirrors. It doesn’t work and it isn’t going to cause some kind of Great Replacement any more than a 1970s Automat could eliminate the restaurant industry.
Its less the computers themselves and more the fear surrounding them that seem to keep people in line.
The current presumption that generative AI will replace workers is smoke and mirrors, though the response by upper management does show the degree to which they would love to replace their human workforce with machines, or replace their skilled workforce with menial laborers doing simpler (though more tedious) tasks.
If this is regarded as them tipping their hands, we might get regulations that serve the workers of those industries. If we’re lucky.
In the meantime, the pursuit of AGI is ongoing, and the LLMs and generative AI projects serve to show some of the tools we have.
It’s not even that we’ll necessarily know when it happens. It’s not like we can detect consciousness (or are even sure what consciousness / self awareness / sentience is). At some point, if we’re not careful, we’ll make a machine that can deceive and outthink its developers and has the capacity of hostility and aggression.
There’s also the scenario (suggested by Randall Munroe) that some ambitious oligarch or plutocrat gains control of a system that can manage an army of autonomous killer robots. Normally such people have to contend with a principal cabinet of people who don’t always agree with them. (Hitler and Stalin both had to argue with their generals.) An AI can proceed with a plan undisturbed by its inhumane implications.
I can see how increased integration and automation of various systems consolidates power in fewer and fewer hands. For instance, the ability of Columbia administrators to rapidly identify and deactivate student ID cards and lock hundreds of protesters out of their dorms with the flip of a switch was really eye-opening. That would have been far more difficult to do 20 years ago, when I was in school.
But that’s not an AGI issue. That’s a “everyone’s ability to interact with their environment now requires authentication via a central data hub” issue. And its illusionary. Yes, you’re electronically locked out of your dorm, but it doesn’t take a lot of savvy to pop through a door that’s been propped open with a brick by a friend.
There’s also the scenario (suggested by Randall Munroe) that some ambitious oligarch or plutocrat gains control of a system that can manage an army of autonomous killer robots.
I think this fear heavily underweights how much human labor goes into building, maintaining, and repairing autonomous killer robots. The idea that a singular megalomaniac could command an entire complex system - hell, that the commander could even comprehend the system they intended to hijack - presumes a kind of Evil Genius Leader that never seems to show up IRL.
Meanwhile, there’s no shortage of bloodthirsty savages running around Ukraine, Gaza, and Sudan, butchering civilians and blowing up homes with sadistic glee. You don’t need a computer to demonstrate inhumanity towards other people. If anything, its our human-ness that makes this kind of senseless violence possible. Only deep ethnic animus gives you the impulse to diligently march around butchering pregnant women and toddlers, in a region that’s gripped by famine and caught in a deadly heat wave.
Would that all the killing machines were run by some giant calculator, rather than a motley assortment of sickos and freaks who consider sadism a fringe benefit of the occupation.
hmmm . i’m not sure we will be able to give emotion to something that has no needs, no living body, and doesn’t die. maybe. but it seems to me that emotions are survival tools that develop as beings and their environment develop, in order to keep a species alive. i could be wrong.
it’s totally smoke and mirrors. i’m amazed that so many people seem to believe it. for a few things, sure. most things? not a chance in hell.
Technology isn’t doing shit to society. Society is fucking itself like it always has.
No it is the entities doing it
You’re an entity.
Fuck you are right
Regardless of what one might think should happen or expect to happen, the actual psychological effect is harmful to the victim. It’s like if you walked up to someone and said “I’m imagining you naked” that’s still harassment and off-putting to the person, but the image apps have been shown to have much much more severe effects.
It’s like the demonstration where they get someone to feel like a rubber hand is theirs, then hit it with a hammer. It’s still a negative sensation even if it’s not a strictly logical one.
How dare that other person i don’t know and will never meet gain sexual stimulation!
My body is not inherently for your sexual simulation. Downloading my picture does not give you the right to turn it in to porn.
Did you miss what this post is about? In this scenario it’s literally not your body.
There is nothing stopping anyone from using it on my body. Seriously, get a fucking grip.
Do you have nudes out there? Because if not then yes, that would stop people. The ai can’t magically reveal what’s actually under your clothes.
You’ve lost this argument when you don’t even know what the argument is about.
The problem isn’t what is actually under because only you or people you choose would know that, the problem is it appears like it’s what is actually under your clothes. What do you think people should do, say “That’s not what I actually look like naked, this is what I actually look like naked” or something?
Literally yes. As this becomes a more prevalent, widespread issue, eventually we’re going to reach a point where seeing a nude of someone is effectively meaningless, as it’s just as likely that it’s fake as it is real.
This is just a transitional phase. It’s going to be rough for sure, especially with how puritan and judgmental our culture is, but my point stands.
This is such a dumb argument. Nobody is claiming that the AI can show you what’s actually beneath a person’s clothes. The nudes being fake doesn’t resolve the ethical issue of creating porn of people who never agreed to it.
The people doing mental gymnastics about this stuff are just telling on themselves. Don’t make fake porn of real people, and if you do, be prepared to be rightfully treated as a sexual predator if anyone finds out.
Look at their next comment, that’s literally what they think is happening.
And it should resolve it. The idea of someone picturing us in their head, photoshopping us, or drawing us, can be incredibly creepy, yeah, but nobody has ever tried to make it illegal.
Also is this an argument of ethics or legality? They’re not inherently the same. Like, I think it’s unethical to insult random people in the street, but it sure as hell shouldn’t be illegal.
As for your last part, it’s funny because I’ve literally never done this. Ironically enough, I find it too creepy to even try, but in the same way that photoshopping or drawing someone nude would be. Incredibly creepy, but not illegal.
Scroll back up.
Undress any girl for free
Delete clothing
Entirely screw off with this gaslighting BS.
That’s their pitch, it’s their way of advertising to people. The ai isn’t literally psychic. All the ai is doing is guessing by using a database of thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of naked bodies, and trying to fill in the blanks based on what it thinks yours probably looks like.
The AI isn’t magic, it doesn’t have the ability to somehow reveal what you look like without knowing. It’s the equivalent of really good photoshop effectively.
You get to tell me what i can and cannot think about in my own head?
WTF?
There is a huge ass difference between your personal thoughts and using a subjects social media, a database of existing nudes and AI to have REAL MEDIA produced.
Seriously, not even remotely similar and its frankly disturbing that this is even your thought process.
If thought crime is a thing, im out.
That is crossing the Rubicon.
There is no harm done to you or your body with an AI generated image or video.
Blackmail and extortion are crimes of their own, as are rape and sexual assault.
But thinking about something and using tools to visualize it are not crimes.
Maybe society overreacts to nudity. Maybe society’s attitude to sex needs to change. Maybe opression and regulation of sex has been a major form of control over society and oppression of certain groups.
People are too concerned with their own junk to see the actual issue.
lmao
It’s not thoughtcrime you giant crybaby.
But thinking about something and using tools to visualize it are not crimes.
This is SUCH a huge leap. You have a right to your thoughts, not databases, programming and services to generate media.
you giant crybaby
Stay classy, fascist.
You want to limit what data people can collect and share what programs they can write.
Why stop there?
Prohibit what paintings they cam make. What drawings can be drawn. What words can be written.
Fascist.
I think half the people who are offended don’t get this.
The other half think that it’s enough to cause hate.
Both arguments rely on enough people being stupid.
Lot of people in this thread who don’t seem to understand what sexual exploitation is. I’ve argued about this exact subject on threads like this before.
It is absolutely horrifying that someone you know could take your likeness and render it into a form for their own sexual gratification. It doesn’t matter that it’s ai rendered. The base image is still you, the face in the image is still your face, and you are still the object being sexualized. I can’t describe how disgusting that is. If you do not see the problem in that I don’t know what to tell you. This will be used on images of normal non-famous women. It will be used on pictures from the social media profiles of teenage girls. These ads were on a platform with millions of personal accounts of women and girls. It’s sickening. There is no consent involved here. It’s non-consensual pornography.
The AI angle is just buzzword fearmongering though - this is something you could do with photoshop back in the 90s (and people did, usually with celebrities and with varying levels of quality).
Photoshop was not advertised for its ability to make fake nudes. The purpose of Photoshop is not to make fake nudes. It is a general purpose image editor. These two things are distinctly different.
Middle school boys could not create realistic depiction of their classmates engaged in sex with photoshop. At least not without significant time and effort. Now they can generate hundreds of photos in a matter of minutes.
You didn’t have to come out and tell everyone that you’re one of those guys who doesn’t understand the concept of sexual exploitation and consent.
It literally doesn’t matter what you call this. Colloquially the technology is known as “Generative AI”, and it is fully automating the task of making fake nudes to the point that shady websites only require a single input image, and with a few layers of machine learning, are able to spit out a convincing nude.
It was just as fucked up when perverts sexually exploited people with Photoshop, so I don’t understand what your point here is. “AI” has made sexual exploitation fully automated, and there’s absolutely no excuse for defending this.
so I don’t understand what your point here is
It’s that all the articles over the last year screaming about the dangers of AI because it can be used for something an interested high school student could use an image editor to do 30 years ago but more easily and arguably at somewhat better quality (depending on the person using photoshop) are being ridiculous because they’re blaming the technology instead of the weirdo using it to doctor an image of that girl at their school and pass it around. And yes, anyone who makes and distributes on of these images of someone should be nailed for revenge porn, harassment and whatever else might apply. I say “and distributes” only because if they never distribute it no one would ever know it exists so there would be no opportunity to bust them.
The best use (ie only good use) for one of these is to feed it an image of something that is definitely not the right kind of image for it and seeing what horrors it invents trying to fill in the blanks. Hand it your buddy with a beer belly and a mountain man beard or a dog or garden gnome something.
Generative AI is being used quite prominently for the purposes of making nonconsensual pornography. Just look at the state of CivitAI, the largest marketplace of Stable Diffusion models online. It pretends to be a community for Machine Learning professionals, but behind the scenes it’s laying the groundwork for all of the problems we’re seeing right now. There’s not an actress or female celebrity that doesn’t have a TI or LoRA trained on their likeness - and the galleries don’t hold back on showing you what these models can do.
At least Photoshop never gained the specific reputation of being a tool for making fake porn, but the GenAI community is leaving no doubt that this is a major use case for image models.
Even HuggingFace turns a blind eye to pornifying models and lolicon datasets, and they’re basically the GitHub of AI models…
Knowledge of fission is often applied to make nuclear bombs, but also to generate nuclear power. We shouldn’t blame AI as a whole for this just because some creeps use it for shitty applications.
That’s kinda why I brought up specific key players and how I consider them complicit. If you don’t want AI to be blamed as a whole, you should want those key players to behave ethically, or they’ll poison public perception of AI as a whole.
Wrong. That took time and effort and some level of knowledge from the user, meaning the end product was still somewhat rare. We already know that a decent “AI” image generator can spit these out in seconds with zero skill or knowledge required from the user.
Is there such a thing as a consensual undressing app? Seems redundant
There isn’t, but emphasis on why it’s an issue is always a good thing to do. Same reason people get upset when some articles say “had sex with a minor” or “involved in a relationship with a minor” when the accurate crime is “raped a minor.”
If you (the news) are going to use flowery language, at least imply its a crime!
- “Sexually coersed a minor”
- or “groomed a minor for sex”
- or “had a relationship where the power dynamics were so 1 sided that the child could not give consent”
- or mabe just say “raped a minor”
Its not that hard!
BRB. Got an idea for a start-up
Theoretically any of these apps could be used with consent.
In practice I can’t imagine that would be a particularly large part of their market…
Now I have this image of an OnlyFans girl who just fake nudes all her pictures. Would make doing public nudity style pictures a lot easier.
Y’know, as long as she’s open about it that would be a great use of the tech.
“hey send me some nudes!”
“Ugh… I’m already on the couch in my pajamas. Here’s a pic of me at the coffee shop today, just use the app, it’s close enough.”
I guess it’s really in whether you use it with consent. I used one on my own picture just to see how it worked. It gave me huge tits but other than that was scarily accurate.
Neat. Ladies only or does it do dudes too?
I’m a dude, it’s just a clever name. It’ll do dudes, it’s just gonna give you huge tits. What you’re into is, of course, your business.
My interest in this topic just went from 0 to 10 upon realizing the humour potential of passing it around to see all my bros with huge tits, but only if it worked like a Snapchat filter.
Also I have a friend who already has huge tits, and I’ve seen them IRL so I’m curious what it would do
Also I have a friend who already has huge tits, and I’ve seen them IRL so I’m curious what it would do
Being serious for a moment, it depends on the source image. If it can tell where the contours of the tits are in the source image, they’ll be closer to the right size and shape - otherwise it’s going to find something it thinks are the contours and map out tits that match those, then generic torso that matches the shape of where it thinks the torso is and skintone of the face. It’s not magic, it’s just automating what a horndog with photoshop, a photo of you and a big enough porn collection to find someone with a similar body type could do back in the 90s.
I’m familiar with how ML works so it’s not magic to me either, but the actual result is what would intrigue me. Since she has big naturals obviously they hang pretty heavy when they’re set free.
But if I fed it a picture of her wearing a tight push-up bra, which could easily give off the impression that she had implants, would I get a pair of bolt-ons back? Or would it be able to pick up on the signs of real tits and add some sag?
Seeing how it’ll put tits on men it’s obviously not an exact science lol
I assume that’s what you’d call OnlyFans.
That said, the irony of these apps is that its not the nudity that’s the problem, strictly speaking. Its taking someone’s likeness and plastering it on a digital manikin. What social media has done has become the online equivalent of going through a girl’s trash to find an old comb, pulling the hair off, and putting it on a barbie doll that you then use to jerk/jill off.
What was the domain of 1980s perverts from comedies about awkward high schoolers has now become a commodity we’re supposed to treat as normal.
Idk how many people are viewing this as normal, I think most of us recognize all of this as being incredibly weird and creepy.
Idk how many people are viewing this as normal
Maybe not “Lemmy” us. But the folks who went hog wild during The Fappening, combined with younger people who are coming into contact with pornography for the first time, make a ripe base of users who will consider this the new normal.
Yeah damn, that’s true.
An obvious answer would be to talk to younger people about it, to explain how gross and violating it is. Even if it doesn’t become illegal, there are plenty of legal things that people avoid and recognize are bad because they were taught correctly.
Unfortunately, due to how puritan our society is, I can’t imagine many parents would be willing to talk to their kids about stuff like this.
You just took my feeling on this issue and put it to words
that would just be instructions, wouldn’t it?
So many of these comments are breaking down into arguments of basic consent for pics, and knowing how so many people are, I sure wonder how many of those same people post pics of their kids on social media constantly and don’t see the inconsistency.
There isn’t really many good reasons to post your kid’s picture anyway.
And yet that seems to be 60% of my wife’s facebook feed… I forbade her from posting our kids years ago.
Good, let all celebs come together and sue zuck into the ground
Its funny how many people leapt to the defense of Title V of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 Section 230 liability protection, as this helps shield social media firms from assuming liability for shit like this.
Sort of the Heads-I-Win / Tails-You-Lose nature of modern business-friendly legislation and courts.
Section 230 is what allows for social media at all given the problem of content moderation at scale is still unsolved. Take away 230 and no company will accept the liability. But we will have underground forums teeming with white power terrorists signalling, CSAM and spam offering better penis pills and Nigerian princes.
The Google advertising system is also difficult to moderate at scale, but since Google makes money directly off ads, and loses money when YouTube content is not brand safe, Google tends to be harsh on content creators and lenient on advertisers.
It’s not a new problem, and nudification software is just the latest version of X-Ray Specs (which is to say weve been hungry to see teh nekkid for a very long time.) The worst problem is when adverts install spyware or malware onto your device without your consent, which is why you need to adblock Forbes Magazine…or really just everything.
However much of the world’s public discontent is fueled by information on the internet (Some false, some misleading, some true. A whole lot more that’s simultaneously true and heinous than we’d like in our society). So most of our officials would be glad to end Section 230 and shut down the flow of camera footage showing police brutality, or starving people in Gaza or fracking mishaps releasing gigatons of rogue methane into the atmosphere. Our officials would very much love if we’d go back to being uninformed with the news media telling us how it’s sure awful living in the Middle East.
Without 230, we could go back to George W. Bush era methods, and just get our news critical of the White House from foreign sources, and compare the facts to see that they match, signalling our friends when we detect false propaganda.
youtube has been for like 6 or 7 months. even with famous people in the ads. I remember one for a while with Ortega
Ortega? The taco sauce?
NSFW-ish
I sat down with tacos as I opened up that reply.
Witch.
I guess that’s an OERGAsm
Don’t use that as lube.
Isn’t it kinda funny that the “most harmful applications of AI tools are not hidden on the dark corners of the internet,” yet this article is locked behind a paywall?
The proximity of these two phrases meaning entirely opposite things indicates that this article, when interpreted as an amorphous cloud of words without syntax or grammar, is total nonsense.
The arrogant bastards!
Sharing this screenshot again, to drive the point home.
What in the fuck are all these photos of kids? They’re not part of the ad?
This was from a test I did with a throwaway account on IG where I followed a handful of weirdo parents who run “model” accounts for their kids to see if Instagram would start pushing problematic content as a result (spoiler: yes they will).
It took about 5 minutes from creating the account to end up with nothing but dressed down kids on my recommendations page paired with inappropriate ads. I guess the people who follow kids on IG also like these recommended photos, and the algorithm also figures they must be perverts, but doesn’t care about the sickening juxtaposition of children in swimsuits next to AI nudifying apps.
Don’t use Meta products. They don’t care about ethics, just profits.
The other day, I had an ad on facebook that was basically lolicon. It depicted a clearly underage anime girl in a sexually suggestive position on a motorcycle with their panties almost off. I am in Germany, Facebook knows I am in Germany and if I took a screenshot of that ad and saved it, it would probably be classed as CSAM in my jurisdiction. I reported the ad and got informed that FB found “nothing wrong” with it a few days later. Fuck off, you child predators.
I logged into my throwaway account today just to check in on it since people are talking about this shit more. I was immediately greeted with an ad featuring hardcore pornography, among the pics of kids that still populate my feed.
I’ll spare you the screenshot, but IG is fucked.
okay enough internet for me today
Coupled with the article about pedos blackmailing kids with their fake nudes to get real ones, this makes my stomach turn and eyes water. So much evil in this world. I am happy to say I deleted my FB and IG accounts a few days ago. WhatsApp is tough to leave due to family though… Slowly getting people to switch over to safer and more ethical alternatives.
This 100%. I can’t even bring myself to buy new content for my Quest now that I’m aware of the issues (no matter how much I want the latest Beat Saber and Synth Riders DLC), especially since Meta’s Horizon, in my experience, puts adults into direct contact with children. At first I just dismissed metaverse games like VRChat or Horizon as being too popular with kids for me to enjoy it, but now I realize that it put me, an adult, straight into voice chats with tweens, which people should fucking know better than to do. My first thought was to log off because I wasn’t having fun in a kid-dominated space, but I have no doubt that these apps are crawling with creeps who see that as a feature rather than a problem.
We need education for parents that sharing pictures of their kids online comes with real risks, as does giving kids free reign to use the Internet. The laissez faire attitude many people have towards social media needs to be corrected, because real harm is already being done.
Most of the parents that post untoward pics of their kids online are chasing down opportunities for their kids to model, and they’re ignoring the fact that a significant volume of engagement these photos receive comes from people objectifying children. There seems to be a pattern that the most revealing outfits get the most engagement, and so future pictures are equally if not more revealing to chase more engagement…
Parents might not understand how disturbing these patterns are until they’ve already dumped thousands of pictures online, and at that point they’re likely to be in denial about what they’re exposing their kids to, and/or too invested to want to reverse course.
We also need to have a larger conversation, as a society, about using kids as models at all. Pretty much every major manufacturer of children’s clothing is hiring real kids to model the clothes. I don’t think it’s necessary to be publishing that many pictures of kids online, nor is it acceptable to be doing so for profit. There’s no reason not to limit modeling to adults who can consent to putting their bodies on public display, and using mannequins for kids’ clothing. The sheer volume of kids’ swimsuit and underwear pictures hosted on e-commerce sites is likely a contributor to the capability Generative AI models have to create inappropriate images of children, not to mention the actual CSAM found in the LAION dataset most of these models are trained on.
Sorry for the long rant, this shit pisses me off. I need to consider sending 404 Media everything I know since they’re doing investigations into this kind of thing. My small scale investigation has revealed a lot to me, but more people need to be getting as upset as I am about it if we want to make the Internet less of a hellscape.
Wow, that is really disturbing. WTF, IG?
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My only hope is it also reduces CSAM of real people. Please at least do that much!
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That’s what I was hoping too, and I’m sure for some it does, but I also saw an article the other day about people using these to blackmail children into giving real nudes, so fuck me I guess.
I still hope that for the majority of pedos this is solely something used to deter their urges. I’d like at least that much I mean ffs.
I feel like you’ve just set me up for an FBI visit.
Send 'em to Zuck.
That makes me sick!! 😠
Google Play and co are allowing similar apps
The idea that the children in this photo are ment to be seen in the same context of a porn site (or at least somthing using the pornhub logo likeness) is discusting.
DISCLAIMER: Ive havent gone throught this myself but know what porn adiction feels like. its not fun and will warp who you are on the inside.
Anyone lured for any reason to this site, DO NOT ENGUAGE it WILL HURT YOU! If for whatever reason theve put their hooks in you and are reeling you in, Use stratigies that Alcoholics Anonimous use. LITERALLY ANYTHING is better than using pictures of REAL CHILDREN for sexual grtification.
Shit ain’t right.
AI gives creative license to anyone who can communicate their desires well enough. Every great advancement in the media age has been pushed in one way or another with porn, so why would this be different?
I think if a person wants visual “material,” so be it. They’re doing it with their imagination anyway.
Now, generating fake media of someone for profit or malice, that should get punishment. There’s going to be a lot of news cycles with some creative perversion and horrible outcomes intertwined.
I’m just hoping I can communicate the danger of some of the social media platforms to my children well enough. That’s where the most damage is done with the kind of stuff.
The porn industry is, in fact, extremely hostile to AI image generation. How can anyone make money off porn if users simply create their own?
Also I wouldn’t be surprised if the it’s false advertising and in clicking the ad will in fact just take you to a webpage with more ads, and a link from there to more ads, and more ads, and so on until eventually users either give up (and hopefully click on an ad).
Whatever’s going on, the ad is clearly a violation of instagram’s advertising terms.
I’m just hoping I can communicate the danger of some of the social media platforms to my children well enough. That’s where the most damage is done with the kind of stuff.
It’s just not your children you need to communicate it to. It’s all the other children they interact with. For example I know a young girl (not even a teenager yet) who is being bullied on social media lately - the fact she doesn’t use social media herself doesn’t stop other people from saying nasty things about her in public (and who knows, maybe they’re even sharing AI generated CSAM based on photos they’ve taken of her at school).
How can anyone make money off porn if users simply create their own?
What, you mean like amateur porn or…?
Seems like professional porn still does great after over two decades of free internet porn so…
I guess they will solve this one the same way, by having better production quality. 🤷
I think old people are the ones less likely to understand this stuff.
How old? My parents certainly understand this, may great-parants not so much and my son not yet (5yo)
70 or older in my family. My dad’s wife just posted an excited post on Facebook about a Tesla Concorde taking off, and do had to explain to her that it’s a flight simulator. She’s 73.
I see, that is nearly as old as my great parents 😮
That bidding model for ads should be illegal. Alternatively, companies displaying them should be responsible/be able to tell where it came from. Misinformarion has become a real problem, especially in politics.
ITT: A bunch of creepy fuckers who dont think society should judge them for being fucking creepy
