Edit - This is a post to the meta group of Blåhaj Lemmy. It is not intended for the entire lemmyverse. If you are not on Blåhaj Lemmy and plan on dropping in to offer your opinion on how we are doing things in a way you don’t agree with, your post will be removed.
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A user on our instance reported a post on lemmynsfw as CSAM. Upon seeing the post, I looked at the community it was part of, and immediately purged all traces of that community from our instance.
I approached the admins of lemmynsfw and they assured me that the models with content in the community were all verified as being over 18. The fact that the community is explicitly focused on making the models appear as if they’re not 18 was fine with them. The fact that both myself and one a member of this instance assumed it was CSAM, was fine with them. I was in fact told that I was body shaming.
I’m sorry for the lack of warning, but a community skirting the line trying to look like CSAM isn’t a line I’m willing to walk. I have defederated lemmynsfw and won’t be reinstating it whilst that community is active.
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For anyone wondering, this is lemmynsfw’s take on the situation.
On a personal level, the vibes are off. Their defense seems really defensive and immediately moves to reframe the situation as body shaming. There’s a difference between an adult who looks underage posting porn of themselves and a community dedicated to porn of adults who look underage. Reducing the latter down to body shaming seems like unfair framing to me.
Did you check the community in question? I’m quite suprised to hear one could think that’s csam. To me it looks just like your typical low-effort onlyfans content. None of the models even looked “barely legal” but more like well over 20 in most cases.
The community in question listed “child-like” in their sidebar until after this defederation. Gross.
That’s a stumble, but it was because they copied and pasted the dictionary definition of “adorable” into the sidebar. The same community has more than two million members on Reddit and has been a staple for almost a decade. However, they simply wrote “It must be adorable.” instead defining adorable like Lemmy did, so there’s that.
Idk, it just seems weird to be outraged when everything is legal, consensual, and not even a fringe kink. This is like Australia banning small-titted pornstars in their late twenties in a recent project against CSAM, because these adults aren’t shaped in morally appropriate ways.
It seems weird to me that you’re on the meta for another instance complaining about a decision that doesn’t affect you.
There’s plenty of other comments here about other awful shit going on at lemmynsfw and I don’t feel like recapping that. From what I can see concerning the actual defederation, it is at worst the right choice for the wrong reasons.
The rest of the argument seems to be about the community’s intent. Including “child-like” in the sidebar of a porn community because it was copy/pasted from a dictionary definition may have been a ‘stumble’ but it was still negligent.
When I checked their communities most were basically empty?
And I didn’t see a community that fits that description.
Edit: I did try to enable nsfw content and tried from other accounts I have on other instances.
Your instance just deferedated from lemmyNSFW. You can’t see any new content there anymore with that account.
I tried in private browser mode and from accounts I have have lemmy.ml and Beehaw
I still didn’t see anything?
IDK what’s up
Both of those are also defederated, I believe. It’s one of the reasons I use sh.itjust.works (which Beehaw also defederated, which is why I also have a lemmy.ml alt :P )
As of a few hours ago beehaw was still federated with lemmynsfw.com, but the way the lemmynsfw admin team is handling this seems like that might not last
Yeah. I don’t think they’re sincerely trying to “be inclusive”. I think they’re just trying to misuse progressive concepts to their own advantage.
They know full well what they’re doing. The fact that it isn’t legally CP is just a technicality.
I think it’s really strange to call that a technicality. Adults with babyfaces and braces doing porn (which appears to be what this was about, as far as I can tell) is worlds apart from children being abused. Calling that a “technicality” is like saying the difference between a slasher movie and a snuff film is a “technicality.” People who watch slasher movies arent actually wanting to see snuff films deep down inside. And people who find adults with babyfaces attractive arent actually lusting after kids deep down inside.
HEY ADA, THIS GUY ISNT FROM BLAHAJ, WHY ISNT HE CENSORED? I THOUGHT THIS WAS FOR BLAHAJ INPUT ONLY? WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD, ADA?WHY THE HYPOCRISY? I MEAN, WE ALREADY KNOW, BUT I WANNA SEE YOU SAY IT!
Oh please just shut up
No. 🤠
They literally said in the post no one looks too young to be lusted after. Major red flag right there.
I feel this needs to be clarified. The point is that anyone of legal age deserves to be lusted after if that’s what they want. You telling them “you look too young, no one is allowed to find you attractive” is a bit… fucked.
To an extent, but there kind of has to be a line somewhere. I hope beyond hope that they can find fulfilling love and lust, if that’s what they want, in their personal lives. I’m all for body positivity in general. I’m just saying I wouldn’t be comfortable if Sandra Rae started posting sexually explicit content of herself. Maybe a bit of an extreme example, but they did say nobody.
I thought we already drew that line: 18 years of age, able to consent, and consenting. For context: I looked at this article where it is said Shauna Rae is 22 years old, however due to a condition her growth was stunted. I don’t think we should tell her not to date or do explicit things with her partner, when she finds one. It’s her body, and she is an adult. Similar to others with growth related conditions, such as dwarfism, or simply people who look petite even after they’ve come of age, who also get thrown under the bus regularly.
Let’s actually go that extra step and pretend she did make sexually explicit content. Now what? It immediately feels very wrong. Put that aside. I’m guessing most people are going to be worried about those with certain urges getting their rocks off…? (Honestly, not sure what to call them here, I was already unfamiliar with the term “CSAM”, so I’ll just leave it at that.) Now there’s content that’s legal and hasn’t harmed a child. That seems … better than the alternative?
I don’t think a person with unhealthy sexual urges gets to choose whether they have these urges or not. Demonizing them to the degree that we are, leads to most of them not being able to get the help they need. If it can’t be done by other means such as therapy, or therapy is not available, an outlet might help. And whether that’s “questionable” but legal porn, roleplaying, or other content or activities involving consenting adults that seems to tick the right boxes, … that’s up to them, not us. Again, miles better than the alternative, even if the immediate reaction is to be disgusted.
It’s an incredibly delicate problem. I’d say the right approach would be to do more scientific studies, but I imagine not many have or will be done because of the societal taboo. It’s also very iffy trying to search for existing research on this matter on the internet, and even if I could find some, I don’t have the expertise to know how scientifically sound it is.
In fact, in writing this and continuously re-reading my comment, I keep feeling like the points I’m making are scarily close to those of an apologist, or worse, someone who wants to normalize the sexualization of minors. I want to make it clear that I’m 100% against this. But I’m also against shaming the bodies of adults, telling them what they can’t and can’t do, because it makes me feel uncomfortable. (And I want to note that this is not meant to be an argument relating to the thread as a whole, as it would not want to tell the admins to host content I hypothesized in this post.)
Holy shit unrelated I recognize you from Vintage Story. I had a modding stint for awhile and used your guide to get started. Thanks!!
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“If someone made a community intended to fool people into thinking it was kiddy porn, that would be a real problem. If someone of age goes online and pretends – not roleplays, but pretends with intent to deceive – to be a child and makes porn, that is a real problem. Nobody here is doing that.”
JFC what a shitty take. Roleplay of CP is still fucking disgusting.
all Im seeing is you showing me them saying that they’re also not okay with it?
Read it again? They excluded roleplay as the act they find reprehensible
An adult role playing as a kid isn’t any different than them role playing as a dog, or a car, or a dragon. Are you going to tell me I can’t role play as a dragon while my partner role plays as a car?
Role playing as children having sex/being represented sexually is absolutely different from role-playing as a dragon fucking a car. If you can’t see that you might want to rethink some things.
Ageplay is absolutely a thing, but the point is they are adults. pretending to be something else, doesn’t change what they are.
It’s creepy, I would certainly not take part. But the bottom line is, in reality it’s just two adults playing pretend.
role-playing as a dragon fucking a car.
Is… is that a thing?
I’m going to need some photos to be able to fairly judge…
I guess Trans Littles can just go fuck off then? One of the biggest Trans comics artist is openly a little. Why are we in the business of regulating what consenting adults do?
Don’t be disingenuous. Genuine consent practices also consider that not everyone else consents to witnessing their play, so they don’t do it where it’s not welcomed. And it’s not welcomed on Blahaj Zone, in this case. That’s all.
Exscuse me but you’re the one being disengenious, a NSFW instance had what!? Porn!? Stop the fucking presses. Are we going to defederate from all porn instances or just the ones you find icky? Where can I post my objection to having to be subjected to porn at all?
Let me know when you find out what the word “disingenuous” means.
Responses are pointless, I’m going to remake my account in another instance when I’m done with work. Enjoy insulting people and living your prudish dreams
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. If it were just a matter of not consenting to seeing their play, that community would be blocked. But instead, the entire instance has been defederated, so that’s not really a fair comparison.
I’m sorry, could you rephrase that? I’m not sure I understand
Leigh made an analogy to how in kink communities, it’s generally not cool to involve people in your kink who didn’t consent to it, and that defederating was basically just Blahaj Zone saying that they don’t consent to seeing any sort of ageplay-adjacent content.
I’m saying that’s a bad analogy, because they could just ban the offending content if that was the only concern; instead they’ve banned the entire instance by association. I’m not saying it’s a bad call, just that it’s a step beyond “don’t involve me in your kink”, it’s now “I don’t want to see anyone who lives in the same house as you while you do your kink, even if it has nothing to do with your kink.”
Ah, I see. I agree
Is it actually possible to instance-level ban a community that’s hosted by another instance without defederating? I’m under the belief that it isn’t, but if I’m wrong on that, then I think I’d agree with you here.
It is possible as far as I’m aware, I think Ada mentioned doing it before.
That makes this all so much more infuriating then!
It goes beyond even that, actually. This isn’t one individual making the decision for themselves, this is one individual making the decision for their entire household. “I don’t want anyone who lives in the same house as me to see anyone who lives in the same house as you, because you did your kink, even if it has nothing to do with your kink.”
At some point the metaphor starts falling apart a bit…
No one is looking at a little and thinking that they’re physically 15.
I wrote a comment but got more aggressive than I intended. My overall point though is there are young looking adults, there are old looking kids. Making a sweeping statement like you did is just wrong
Young looking adults also aren’t the issue.
The issue is a community that focuses heavily on models that are framed to look like they’re not adults.
Not adults roleplaying. Not adults that incidentally happen to look younger than they are.
But they are adults, no?
Again, the issue is a community with models that are framed to look like they’re not adults.
There is no scenario where something that can be mistaken for CSAM will have a space here.
And again, these are adults on an instance that was explicitly designated for NSFW works. Defederating was entirely within your right but these justifications seem really poorly thought out, and could have unintended consequences.
Should we shun non consensual play? Should we defederate from anything that shows BDSM? Because I can’t see any reason why your justifications wouldn’t apply to them
Defederating was entirely within your right but these justifications seem really poorly thought out, and could have unintended consequences.
You disagreeing with the decision doesn’t make it poorly thought out.
Because I can’t see any reason why your justifications wouldn’t apply to them
There is no outcome here that leads to me saying “Ah, good point, this makes me ok with content that can be mistaken for CSAM”
Hypotheticals and what ifs do not change the fact that I encountered something that looked like CSAM, and when I looked at the community in question, I encountered more of it.
That’s a hard no.
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The topic was about porn of a straight couple, but be a disgusting gremlin I guess
the same community (adorableporn) is also on reddit btw with 2.2m subscribers.
i have no grand moral opinion on this type of content. for me it is the same as femboy content for example, where people also push for a youthful, girly aesthetic.
as long as the content is made by consenting verified adults, i don’t care.
it’s like adults cosplaying with japanese school uniforms or calling your partner “mommy” or “daddy”.
probably not the best move in terms of sexual morals for sure, in the grand scheme of things tho this is just how people express their sexuality i guess.
it’s like adults cosplaying with japanese school uniforms or calling your partner “mommy” or “daddy”.
No, it’s not, because no one mistakes those things for actual underage children
i had no problem distinguishing the models on the community from children.
maybe it’s more difficult in some cases without looking for the onlyfans link or sth similar of the model somewhere in the post, but that’s just human anatomy.
that’s why the guy at the gas station asks for my ID card, because it is not always super clear. but apparently clear enough for reddit admins and PR people from ad companies.
i agree playing into the innocent baby aspect is probably not great for sexual morals and i wouldn’t recommend this comm to a local priest or a nun, but this type of content thrives on pretty much every mainstream platform in some shape or form.
i get it, if this instance wants to be sexually pure and removed from evil carnal desires tho. that’s kind of cool too for sure.
i had no problem distinguishing the models on the community from children.
You didn’t see the content I saw. Content that was reported as CSAM by someone on this instance, who also thought it was CSAM.
maybe it’s more difficult in some cases without looking for the onlyfans link or sth similar of the model somewhere in the post, but that’s just human anatomy.
Again, a group that is focused on models in which that is the only way you can tell that they’re not underage, is a group that is focused on appealing to people who want underage models. That is a hard no.
Spin it how you like, but I am not going to be allowing material that is easily mistaken from CSAM
Context always matters. I always check if adult material has actually been made by consenting adults. I would feel sick, if not enough information had been provided for that, but I at least have never encountered CSAM fortunately.
I had classmates in high school with balding or even graying hair and full beards. Some adults older than me, look younger than my nephews. Revenge porn and creepshots are common. (or atleast were, I’m not on platforms where these are popular)
Without context, porn will always be a morally grey area. Even commercialized hyper-capitalist porn is still an intimate affair.
That’s why I didn’t use pornhub for example, before every user had to verify themselves before posting. Before that I only read erotica or looked at suggestive drawings.
I understand your perspective tho. You get hardly paid to keep this instance running, looking at pictures that without context could be CSAM could make this volunteer work very mentally taxing. This is how NSFW works tho.
Without context, any pornographic material featuring real humans could in truth be some piece of evidence for a horrible crime.
Context always matters. I always check if adult material has actually been made by consenting adults. I would feel sick, if not enough information had been provided for that, but I at least have never encountered CSAM fortunately.
If I can’t tell, if I have to look something up because the people I’m looking at look like they’re underage, then it doesn’t matter what the answer is, because the issue is that it looks like CSAM even if it’s not. And a community designed in a way that attracts people looking for underage content is not a space I’m willing to federate with.
Isn’t it kind of shitty to tell an adult woman she can never be attractive or sexy because she looks too young? Do you truly believe that said person should never be allowed to find love, because it’s creepy? Is she supposed to just give up because you think her body is icky?
I’ve covered this many times already.
The issue isn’t individuals that happen to look younger than they are. The issue is with a community gathering sexual content of people that appear to be children.
The community that initiated this isn’t even the worst offender on lemmynsfw. There is at least one other that is explicitly focused on this.
“You didn’t see the content I saw.”
Probably because it was removed for being against the rules?
I thought about this some more and I can feel a lot more sympathy for your decision now.
It must be horrible to get a user report about CSAM and then see a picture, which could be really CSAM on first glance.
Even if every user report was wrong from now until infinity, that initial CSAM suspicion, because of the false user report, probably makes moderating just a soul-crushing activity.
It is great if admins from other instances are willing to handle with these horror reports, just to give their users a bigger platform, but this service is not something that can be taken for granted.
I’m sorry for coming across as ignorant, I just did not consider your perspective that much really.
I totally get that and definitely don’t blame Ada for defederating (although I don’t think it’s likely it was actually CSAM, nor that the community it was on is Inherently Problematic, as long as everyone in the posts is 18+, people’s kinks are none of my business).
The thing I don’t get is why reports made by blahaj users on lemmynsfw communities would go to the blahaj moderators at all. That seems like a design flaw in Lemmy, instance mods have no power to moderate content on off-instance communities, so why would they be notified of reports? That seems like it would clutter mod-logs for no reason and cause unnecessary drama (as happened here). Like if every subreddit post report immediately went to the Site Admins, that would be Terrible.
Though if Lemmy really is built like this for whatever reason, I would probably have done the same thing. I wouldn’t want to have to be Subjected to everything that could be reported on an NSFW instance, there’s probably some Heinous Shit that gets posted at least Occasionally, and I wouldn’t want to see all of it either. I just think it’s Really Stupid that lemmy is built this way, we need better moderation tools
The thing I don’t get is why reports made by blahaj users on lemmynsfw communities would go to the blahaj moderators at all.
Reports go to the admins on the instance the reporter is from, to the admins on the instance the reported account is from and to the admins of the instance the community the post was made to is from. The report also goes to the moderators of the community that the content was posted to.
Each instance only gets a single report, however many of those boxes it ticks, and that report can be dealt with by admins or moderators.
However, the results federate differently based on who does the action. So for example, me deleting content from a lemmynsfw community doesn’t federate. It just removes it from my instance. However, a moderator or an admin from lemmynsfw removing lemmynsfw content will federate out.
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“Even if every user report was wrong from now until infinity, that initial CSAM suspicion, because of the false user report, probably makes moderating just a soul-crushing activity.”
Then they shouldn’t be doing it. If seeing something that looks even slightly off-putting causes this level of over-reaction, Ada doesn’t need to be moderating a community for marginalized/at-risk people. I myself am a CSA survivor, and seeing my trauma being equated to some legal adults playing pretend is fuckin’ bullshit. Seeing my trauma being equated to drawn pictures is fuckin’ bullshit. My trauma being equated to AI generated shit is fuckin’ bullshit. I’ll tell you one thing, as a CSA kid, one thing I cannot stand is someone making decisions on my behalf. To protect me. Fuck you, I’ll fuckin bite anyone that tries to take away my free agency again.
I myself am a CSA survivor
FYI, so am I
Cool, welcome to the real world where one size does not fit all. We handle our trauma differently. But I don’t subject others to my hangups. I don’t use it as a cudgel to squash dissent. Your trauma is not your fault, but it is your responsibility, not ours, to deal with.
No, it’s not, because no one mistakes those things for actual underage children
That’s not what happened here. No one would mistake the image in question. You say there were other images; the admins there give a story that contradicts yours. They say there were no such images. Didn’t see those images removed in the modlog, either.
Could it possibly be that someone has blown things out of proportion and got emotional?
That and the lack of humility afterwards make for a poor leader.
For the people like me that don’t know the term: CSAM is Child Sexual Abuse Materials. It’s the term used instead of CP as “pornography” is more commonly used for pleasure or conveys the idea of consent.
As for the porn that uses people that look under age, it’s no different than the anime children that are thousands of years old. It doesn’t matter how old they are, they look like children and it’s gross.
I agree with you but not on the last point. There is a difference since they are real people, adults, and that they consent on being sexually attractive and arouse. I am not attracted to young looking bodies but that’s a notable difference to me. Also I don’t know how I feel about a community (in a broader way than a lemmy comm) focusing and fetichising on young looking adults (I do know that it disturbs me but I want to talk about society wise), but I understand that some people are attracted to young looking bodies and/or juvenile ones, and I feel like adults that consent to answer their desires is better than CASM
The world is messed up. I feel like advertising any adult material as “barely legal” should be banned too. It skirts the boundary too close. Not as close as the aforementioned thousand year old child body but it feels almost as bad imo.
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I think both instance admins have a valid stance on the matter. lemmynsfw appears to take reports very seriously and if necessary does age verification of questionable posts, something that likely takes a lot of time and effort. Blahaj Lemmy doesn’t like the idea of a community that’s dedicated to “adults that look or dress child-like”. While I understand the immediate (and perhaps somewhat reactionary) concern that might raise, is this concern based in fact, or in emotion?
Personally I’m in the camp of “let consenting adults do adult things”, whether that involves fetishes that are typically thought of as gross, dressing up in clothes or doing activities typically associated with younger ages, or simply having a body that appears underage to the average viewer. As the lemmynsfw admin mentioned, such persons have the right to lust and be lusted after, too. That’s why, as a society, we decided to draw the line at 18 years old, right?
I believe the concern is not that such content is not supposed to exist or be shared, but rather that it’s collected within a community. And I think the assumption here is that it makes it easy for “certain people” to find this content. But if it is in fact legal, and well moderated, then is there a problem? I don’t believe there is evidence that seeing such content could change your sexual preferences. On the other hand, saying such communities should not exist could send the wrong message, along the lines of “this is weird and should not exist”, which might be what was meant with “body shaming”.
I’m trying to make sense of the situation here and possibly try to deescalate things, as I do believe lemmynsfw approach to moderation otherwise appears to be very much compatible with Blahaj Lemmy. Is there a potential future where this decision is reconsidered? Would there be some sort of middle-ground that admins from both instances could meet and come to an understanding?
Reminds me of a lot of the debates around kink at pride/ddlg kink stuff. The latter is really not my thing and makes me uncomfortable, but I recognise that that’s a personal thing between me and my partners that I can’t, and shouldn’t, police among others.
There’s also ethical debates to be had on porn in places like Lemmy/pornhub/etc. – we can’t know that the person has consented to being posted, or that they have recourse to get it taken down and stop it being spreaded if they do not.
Then there’s the realpolitik of, regardless of ethics, whether it’s better to have porn of this type in visible, well moderated communities, or whether it’s better to try to close off ethically dubious posting.
It’s one I don’t really have squared off in my head quite yet. Similarly with kink at pride; I’ve read about the historic importance of kinksters and recognise that, but at the same time I want there to be a space where queer kids can be involved with pride without being exposed to kink. Is that just prudish social norms talking? Idk; I’m still working it through.
For what it’s worth, I feel like while society has become more socially accepting of people being different (imperfectly, but we have), at least in the US we’ve become more and more prudish when it comes to sex itself. Part of the changing era has led to a reduction in exploitation and things that were generally viewed as sketchy, but not all that big of deal (kids inheriting porn mags, sexual harassment, imbalances in power), where now sketchy behavior is quickly called out.
That said, I feel like a lot of hard conversations have been completely avoided because they’d be awkward and uncomfortable and instead we just pretend they aren’t there.
Like in theory, anyone under 18 in the US can’t legally see so much as a titty (unless it’s art), read sexually explicit material, or see a movie or tv show with explicit content. And then, literally nobody wants to talk to teenagers about sex. I watched a reddit thread eat itself alive because a dad was furious that his wife had bought their daughter a dildo after he had confiscated her laptop when catching her looking at them and asked his wife to deal with it. People were calling for her to be reported for sexual abuse, while actual women were being attacked for sharing their own experiences as teens. Things just seem a little crazy.
People are so uncomfortable with the concept that they want to disappear anything that reminds them that 18 isn’t actually a magical division between childhood and adulthood. And then you have this thread, where lemmynsfw was banned because a community sharing “cute” pornstars was a step too far despite being actual professional adults. Idk, it seems exactly like Australia’s whole thing where they started banning pornstars in their late twenties because they have small tits as part of a project to “fight” child porn.
Yeah, this seems very well thought through. For what it’s worth, I’m UK based so will be talking from that perspective. I’m in agreement that sex education is absolutely dire – I can’t see any objection to a dispassionate education in both the cultural and scientific aspects of sex. I don’t even see it as an ‘oh well, if we have to’, since sex forms such an integral part of our cultural identities (of course, including when people fall outside the societal sexual norms).
More broadly on society’s difficulty with dealing with sex (and even the criminal aspects) I’ve read some interesting books on anti-carceral feminism recently that helped give me a different perspective on how I think about sexual crimes and its perpetrators beyond the simple instinctual judgements.
is this concern based in fact, or emotion?
Ada was clear in another comment thread that yes, emotion was absolutely involved in her decision. That isn’t a bad thing. Why is there a social attitude that decision-making is only valid if it’s cold and unfeeling?
Personally I’m in the camp of “let consenting adults do adult things”
Me too. I don’t think anyone is arguing against that. Anyone can still access LemmyNSFW’s content elsewhere, Blahaj Zone simply isn’t going to relay it anymore because some of it is incompatible with Ada’s goals in nurturing this community.
But if it is in fact legal, and well moderated, then is there a problem?
Yes. Legality has nothing to do with acceptability. This instance already bans lots of content that doesn’t actually violate any laws. It’s a judgment call.
The reason I brought up emotion in my reply was because I’ve felt that the lemmynsfw admins have been able to explain their decision quite reasonably and seemed to be open to conversation, wheras Ada was set on one goal and upon finding disagreement, wasn’t in the right mindset to continue a constructive conversation. Which, to be fair, due to the nature of the content, is understandable.
If the content that the Blahaj Lemmy admins are concerned about are limited to certain communities, and part of the issue is the concentration of content in said communities in the first place (at least, as I speculated in my original reply), then I don’t quite understand why blocking these communities only isn’t something that was considered, rather than defederating the entire instance. I do respect Blahaj Lemmy’s decision not to want to host such content. Or is there some technical limitation that I’m not aware of?
I don’t quite understand why blocking these communities only isn’t something that was considered, rather than defederating the entire instance
Because I am not ok federating with a space that is ok with content that looks like CSAM. “It’s technically legal” isn’t sufficient in this case.
But whether it’s technically legal is exactly what does or doesn’t make it CSAM. “Looking like” is going to be highly subjective, and I don’t understand how the admins of the other instance are supposed to handle reports, other than to verify whether or not it actually is the case or not.
Are petite looking people not supposed to make explicit content while dressing up cute? Should a trans man not share explicit pictures of himself, because he might look like an underage boy? Do we stop at porn that gives the appearance of someone being young? What about incest or ageplay? Like, what if you or someone else was made sufficiently uncomfortable by some other kind of porn? How do you decide what is and isn’t okay? How do you avoid bias? What would you be telling a model when they ask why you removed their content?
Apologies for going on with this when I’m sure you’re already sick of dealing with this. I had just felt like some of the points I brought up (like in my original reply) were entirely overlooked. Putting effort into an (attempted) thought-out reply doesn’t mean I get to receive a response I was hoping for, but I was at least hoping for something you hadn’t already said elsewhere.
but I was at least hoping for something you hadn’t already said elsewhere.
There is no more to this. I don’t have a list of endless reasons.
The reason is that it looks like CSAM and appeals to folk looking for CSAM. I’m a CSA survivor myself. A space that appeals to folk looking for CSAM isn’t a community that I’m willing to share space with.
I guess the core of the disagreement is that one side values safety higher while the other does expression? It could be argued that moderation can take care of anyone stepping over the line. People can be unwelcome creeps regardless of what they’re into, who would be attracted to other dedicated communities. I imagine someone could have the same concerns you do for similar reasons, when it comes to consensual non-consent roleplay. Interestingly enough, this actually is temporarily restricted on lemmynsfw, which could be because an appropriate moderation policy has not yet been agreed upon.
Why is there a social attitude that decision-making is only valid if it’s cold and unfeeling?
Probably because everyone agrees that we don’t make the best decisions when emotional? In fact we tend to make our worst decisions when emotional? There’s a pretty significant difference between society judging people for being emotional, and society disapproving of emotional decisions. Because people making significant choices when they aren’t thinking clearly is pretty obviously a bad idea.
Yes. Legality has nothing to do with acceptability. This instance already bans lots of content that doesn’t actually violate any laws. It’s a judgment call.
And yet teen porn is one of the most popular categories around. This sounds like a subcategory confined to a single community, and precisely what the block function is for. There’s a pretty big difference between Exploding Heads and a single disliked community.
Edit: After finally seeing a link to the lemmynsfw discussion, it’s not a kink community or anything fringe. It’s literally a community around cute pornstars.
Yeah, see, it’s that conflation of “emotional” and “not thinking clearly” that bothers me. Those aren’t the same thing, despite the dominant cultural narrative to the contrary. Sometimes they go together, sometimes they don’t.
Are they not…? I mean, thinking clearly and intense emotions genuinely don’t go together. Crimes of passion, riots after sports games, getting “carried away” in the heat of the moment. Temporary insanity being an actual legal defense.
There’s a reason that a lot of good advice when handling intense emotions is all about taking a minute to step back and breath, clarify what you’re feeling, accept it, and then express it safely. There’s nothing wrong with being emotional, but arguing that there’s nothing wrong with making decisions while emotionally charged is just a really not good idea. The fact that the acronym for managing intense emotions is STOPP should be a bit telling.
Sometimes they go together, sometimes they don’t.
I read that, I’m just drawing a blank for moments where intense emotions and thinking clearly go well together beyond something like “I saw a bear and ran”.
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Just a personal anecdote. I have intense emotions when dealing with transphobia but I think I’m able to think clearly. I think there absolutely are times where intense emotions can cloud thoughts but I beleive the converse isn’t true.
“Intense emotions can interfere with clear thinking” does not imply that “clear thinking is impossible when there are intense emotions”
It’s rough that you have to deal with that, and I applaud the restraint and poise that goes hand in hand with operating while under intense emotional strain. That said, emotional biases are problems precisely because their influence can range from the subtle to the obvious, and they’re a lot harder to see from the inside. It’s one of the reasons why STOPP has self analysis when experiencing powerful emotions. Most people don’t need it, but it’s always good to take a breath and evaluate every now and then.
For one, I think I speak for everyone when seeing a huge guy flip out and start screaming in public is alarming because you no longer trust that they will make decisions based on the normal rules of public interaction. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t listen to our emotions, they exist for a number of very important reasons, and paying attention to them is linked to better decisions. That said, making decisions while emotional is tempting because it often narrows attention and jumps to actions with immediate effects, which often feels like clarity when it’s really just expedience.
To sum everything up, intense emotions push for quick, immediate actions to deal with whatever is causing said emotions (a simplification, but it works). This is really great when startled by predators or protecting someone, but not when presented with complex situations lacking easy solutions. So I wouldn’t say that clear thinking is literally impossible when experiencing intense emotions, but I’d say there’s a very strong reason that emergency drills and procedures are set up so that people in high stress situations don’t actually need to think. I spent a bit of time reading up on it to provide a more complete argument than just appealing general wisdom, so apologies for the pile of words.
was fine with them
That’s surprising since their rules say that not even fictive under-18 content is allowed:
Posting content involving any person who is under 18 is strictly forbidden. This includes real, drawn, and fictional content.
Could be argued as it is someone that’s over 18 regardless of how they look. This happens in actual mainstream porn, piper perri doesn’t look very old but she’s definitely over 18. I think as long as they don’t outright say that are underage they wouldn’t be breaking those rules
Nah, some people like to look at grannies. Some like newly legal models.
The key here is that everyone in these two buckets are consenting adults. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. Don’t look at it.
It doesn’t “skirt a boundary,” it’s 100% adults and within the boundary. I’m really glad you’re not the one making laws.
I get the feeling there’s going to be a lot of comments here from people who disagree.
This is not your instance. This is not even my instance, I am just signed up here (and thank you Ada, I like it here and I approve of this decision. CSAM-like porn is icky). There is no need to focus on the morality of sharing porn that ends up being viewed as CSAM. Hosting porn involves legal risk, and federating with an instance that has porn on it means that eventually you will host porn images. If you have your account here and you don’t like this choice, consider moving instances or hosting your own.
Not only that, does anyone remember /r/jailbait on reddit? They did not do anything about that subreddit because the images were “legal”, but the userbase they attracted began sharing real CSAM in the DMs. To be clear: I don’t know what community we’re talking about (lemmynsfw does not appear to have a jailbait community, I did not look hard) but you do not want the sort of people around that this attracts.
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Let’s be honest; the only reason Reddit ever did anything with that subreddit is because CNN brought bad PR to them.
I totally forgot about this. It’s so sad that you’re right. Sharing stuff in DMs was probably just the justification they needed to ban them without conflict (and oh my god, there was still so much drama.)
What even was the community, I dont see any focused on CSAM, or appearing as it. Was it small breasts?
According to the comments on lemmynsfw it was adorableporn
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Honestly without anyone citing the actual post in question it’s literally impossible for any of us to make up our own minds on the content. All we have is one admin’s word vs another. I haven’t personally seen anything even approaching CSAM-adjacent anywhere on lemmynsfw, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. At the same time it does kinda seem like the blahaj admins wanted to defederate anyway and finally found a convenient scapegoat – it seems odd that one would completely defederate an entire instance over a single post. So I really have no idea what to think.
Honestly without anyone citing the actual post in question it’s literally impossible for any of us to make up our own minds on the content. All we have is one admin’s word vs another.
Sure, but this isn’t a poll. This is an admin decision that has been made. I appreciate knowing that she made it and why. And if the material looks like CSAM to her — even if it’s actually not — then of course she wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) point anyone to it.
At the same time it does kinda seem like the blahaj admins wanted to defederate anyway and finally found a convenient scapegoat
She doesn’t need a scapegoat, she’s the Blahaj Zone admin. If she’d wanted to defederate with them before today, nothing was stopping her. To the contrary, a request had already been made for this action about a month ago and Ada said “I haven’t seen any reports coming through for content from that instance, which makes it hard to choose to defederate, because I haven’t seen any examples of the problems you describe to get a sense of how the admins are responding.”
it seems odd that one would completely defederate an entire instance over a single post.
Except she didn’t. She defederated because of the LemmyNSFW admins’ response (or lack thereof) to the problematic content they were federating outward and thus got copied onto a storage device that Ada is responsible for. She clearly doesn’t need the ethical nor the potential legal headaches.
People act like defederation is some horrible thing, but really, it’s one of the things that makes the Fediverse so good. Centralized platforms have executives that have to answer to the entire user base plus advertisers, and everyone is stuck with their decisions. On Lemmy, instance admins make the best decisions for the community they want to build, and any user who doesn’t like it can set up a secondary account or fully migrate to another instance that fits their needs better without losing access to their social network.
dont need the post itself, it’s accusations on a whole community. Unless this isn’t the community
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Jesus. CSAM-adjacent material needs to be nuked indiscriminately.
Looked through my block list on Liftoff, and they had/have? a community called fauxbait. I’ve blocked probably about 5 communities from there for having the same vibe.
That community is thoroughly creepy. It apparently wasn’t the one that triggered defederation, but still… Bad vibes from that name and such
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There is a stark contrast between fetishizing body parts and fetishizing underage people. Calling it “shitty” is an understatement by several orders of magnitude. If you are attracted to someone because they look underage, I’d have to question your moral judgement when it comes to the real thing. People aren’t known for making wise choices when under the influence of hormones, and I think that the venn diagram of pseudo-pedos and real ones may overlap a lot more than you seem to want to accept.
I am all for blocking this instance and defederating it. If someone wants to ride that line, they know that address, but now they have to type it into their browser instead of hoping those images show up in their feed.
That’s a real argument, don’t get me wrong, but what Ada was arguing was that they were allowing images that, although they had subjects of legal age, put the subjects in situations where one could see them as underage.
Being real? I have pretty much all of the porn C/s blocked now, so I had to go look specifically for what the problem was.
Nobody with eyes and basic reading comprehension could mistake anything on that community for underage people. The instance has very clear rules about age verification, and the posts all followed them.
Someone seeing them as underage would take either horrible ability to discern age, or just being so wound tight that they weren’t willing to consider otherwise.
Which, again, this is their instance, they can make the decision for no reason at all, and I’m okay with that. It’s just that the stated reason is, bluntly, malarkey.
They didn’t defederate the instance for the content alone, but specifically for being on board with intentionally making content seem like CSAM. That’s a long, long step beyond the subject of an image just looking less than 18.
specifically for being on board with intentionally making content seem like CSAM. That’s a long, long step beyond the subject of an image just looking less than 18.
Do we actually know the community was about? I haven’t seen anything remotely as described on lemmynsfw. I have no clue as to how the admins here ran into such a thing.
We also don’t know what the admins talked about between themselves. I’m not buying it. Seems more likely that the admins here personally didn’t like whatever that was, and added the CSAM label to stop any discussion (cuz if you raise any question you must be a pedo right?). It’s their instance they can do as they please.
Another more feasible thing is that they just don’t want to deal with NSFW content. Just like Reddit & imgur did under the guise of ‘protecting users’.
Both of those seem way more likely and with precedent than admins of a server willingly fostering CSAM-like stuff
If you like fresh, young starlets, this is the place for you!
Their sidebar states
All things adorable but NSFW. Adorable: lovable, sweet, cute; inspiring great affection; delightful; charming;
specifically for being on board with intentionally making content seem like CSAM. That’s a long, long step beyond the subject of an image just looking less than 18.
Do we actually know the community was about? I haven’t seen anything remotely as described on lemmynsfw. I have no clue as to how the admins here ran into such a thing.
We also don’t know what the admins talked about between themselves. I’m not buying it. Seems more likely that the admins here personally didn’t like whatever that was, and added the CSAM label to stop any discussion (cuz if you raise any question you must be a pedo right?). It’s their instance they can do as they please.
Another more feasible thing is that they just don’t want to deal with NSFW content. Just like Reddit & imgur did under the guise of ‘protecting users’.
Both of those seem way more likely and with precedent than admins of a server willingly fostering CSAM-like stuff
specifically for being on board with intentionally making content seem like CSAM. That’s a long, long step beyond the subject of an image just looking less than 18.
Do we actually know the community was about? I haven’t seen anything remotely as described on lemmynsfw. I have no clue as to how the admins here ran into such a thing.
We also don’t know what the admins talked about between themselves. I’m not buying it. Seems more likely that the admins here personally didn’t like whatever that was, and added the CSAM label to stop any discussion (cuz if you raise any question you must be a pedo right?). It’s their instance they can do as they please.
Another more feasible thing is that they just don’t want to deal with NSFW content. Just like Reddit & imgur did under the guise of ‘protecting users’.
Both of those seem way more likely and with precedent than admins of a server willingly fostering CSAM-like stuff
It’s ironic this went down over adorableporn and not fauxbait
I’m surprised as well, until I read your comment, I thought this was about fauxbait. That community is a giant red flag IMO.
or the other one about posting pictures of women you know in real life without their knowledge
If this really is about that post sharing an image of /u/Im_Cherry_Blossom I’m a bit on the fence about this, but I leave it to Ada’s discretion.
I acted on the report I saw. By the sounds of it, I’d have acted exactly the same way if the report was for the other community
Bloody hell this thread is a mess of people from other instances complaining. I wish Lemmy would add the ability to set a community as private to it’s instance. Or only commentable by instance members. If you’re not from this instance, this defederation doesn’t affect you and you should step off. The admins job here is to protect us, the users on this instance. Not appease you.
your meds, and Im not talking about your transition meds, take them
I am very disheartened by the number of people replying here who read “a community skirting the line trying to look like CSAM” and felt the need to go purposefully seek out that community to look through its images.
Probably because the community in question isn’t trying to “skirt the line” and just posts popular pornstars that range from 18 to the mid twenties. I thought it was a kink community until someone finally linked the lemmynsfw post and it’s actually just a community for cute pornstars.
Calling it CSAM-adjacent just means that nobody’s comfortable actually looking at it to figure out what’s going on, and hugely exaggerated.
It’s not about whether the community actually skirts the line or not. It’s about how many people thought “gee, someone thinks these pictures are CSAM-adjacent, I need to go see for myself”. That’s disheartening.
As an aside, I didn’t realize I was annoying you in two different comment chains until just now. Sorry about that lol.
To your point though, that’s why calling it CSAM-adjacent is an issue. Either you trust a stranger’s judgement of whether these legal pornstars’ bodies are morally wrong, or you feel morally wrong for checking to see if you agree or disagree with their assessment. Given the language used here, it’s unsurprising that the thread over on Lemmynsfw is completely different in tone where the community name wasn’t hidden and everyone could just see for themselves.
Oh please, no one here is calling anyone’s body “morally wrong”.
I don’t need to “see if [I] agree or disagree with [the admin’s] assessment.” It wouldn’t make any difference whether I do or not. And it doesn’t matter what the community’s name is. By going to look, I’d be knowingly putting myself in a position to potentially see something that looks like CSAM. Why would I want to do that??
But a lot of people made the choice to do that, presumably for the sake of arguing with an admin on an instance many of them don’t even use. That is disheartening.
By going to look, I’d be knowingly putting myself in a position to potentially see something that looks like CSAM. Why would I want to do that??
I mean, that’s literally my point. The way it’s presented makes it seem like this ultra-sketchy community that despite being entirely legal, is supposedly morally wrong. How is anyone supposed to determine whether this was a good idea or not, if the very idea of checking is portrayed as morally repugnant?
And this whole debate is literally declaring that legal adults don’t look right, and shouldn’t be allowed to post explicit images of themselves or other professional sex workers. It’s incredibly subjective.
How is anyone supposed to determine whether this was a good idea or not
Ada’s judgment is not infallible, but I’d rather trust her judgment than go personally look for something she initially (and admitted mistakenly) thought was CSAM. There are two possible outcomes: (1) I see something that looks similar to CSAM to me and I feel gross about it, or (2) I don’t see any problem with the content, but it doesn’t change anything because she’s the admin here and is still unwilling to host copies of it on her server where she evaluates anything that gets reported.
In either case, I can still enjoy content from LemmyNSFW elsewhere if I so choose — just not at Blahaj Zone.
And this whole debate is literally declaring that legal adults don’t look right, and shouldn’t be allowed to post explicit images
I think the two sides here are having different debates. Yes, there are legal adults who may appear underage, and they should have the same freedom any other adult has to post explicit pictures of themselves if they so choose. But a community that specifically encourages “child-like” content (as the community’s rules said at the time this decision was made) is going to gather multiple examples of this. Even if Ada fully trusts LemmyNSFW’s admins to 100% prevent any real CSAM from being federated, she’d still be exposed to reports of “potential CSAM” from there. She’s a community-building volunteer who willingly examines reported content that gets federated to Blahaj Zone, but she doesn’t want to view any more of it than is strictly necessary to protect her community. So she’s unwilling to federate with an instance that knowingly hosts such a community (even if the content is 100% legal) because it would cause more reports as time goes on. The content also upsets her on a personal level, which is fine — she’s a human being and is allowed to have feelings.
Other admins at other instances might not have the same aversion to this specific type of legal content that Ada does, so maybe they don’t mind having it copied onto their servers. That’s cool. The Fediverse is great like that, users aren’t stuck with the decisions of any single person in charge. Ada announced her decision so that all we Blahaj Zone users would know about it, and if any of us feel strongly enough (and clearly a number of people do), we can vote with our feet and go use one of those other instances so we also don’t lose access to the communities we use here.
This is my final comment on the matter. You may have the last word if you wish.
But a community that specifically encourages “child-like” content (as the community’s rules said at the time this decision was made) is going to gather multiple examples of this.
This is part of why the whole debate is is blown out of proportion. The community was for posting images of “adorable” pornstars, a direct clone of the reddit community that’s one of the largest nsfw subreddits and has been for nearly a decade. The mod made the stumble of posting the dictionary definition of “adorable” on the sidebar, and can you guess what hyphenated word was a part of that? The idea that there’s even a “this type of content” to have an aversion to feels ridiculous after seeing the community.
It’s not teen focused, nor attempting to simulate dubious content, it’s literally just pornstars looking cute. If the issue is gut-checking pornstars, the same thing is going to happen with the nsfw communities on this instance, barring a shift to milf-only posting instead of simply legal porn.
At any rate, I appreciate the civil last word, even if we still disagree.
If you browse all and sort by hot or popular on any of the Lemmy apps, posts from that community would pop up. It’s not some hidden community. I think a lot of people had already seen posts from there. I figured that it had to be some other community on there, as I never really saw anything that looked too suspect from the more popular posts that reached all. It’s petite pornstars.
Nobody is a bad person for looking to see what the blahaj admin was talking about and verify for themselves, either. I think most people figured that there is obviously no CSAM on there considering the community is still up and running, and they probably wanted to see if their morals align with the admin here.
You can’t just take someone’s word for truth on the internet these days.
That’s the thing. I have seen posts from there pop up on all. Nothing on there implies that it is trying to appeal to pedos. It’s just petitie pornstars. That’s it. I am a CSA survivor myself, and nothing on there gave me creepy vibes at all. This is a bit overblown in my opinion.
Good job.
Ew don’t be sorry that’s definitely not ok get rid of that nonsense it always struck me as a sketchy domain :/
