Those people in the photo are just LARPing down the street. They should probably be investigated to see if they’re planning violence. But no one needs to run them over with a car because of what they’re doing in the photo.
You know, I’m not one to ever say a nazi was right about anything, but one thing is for sure, their opponents should have struck hard and without mercy at their very core from the beginning.
Allowing them to continue just gave them their power.
No I mean it, it should be open season on Nazis again, war should unironically be declared on them and it should be treated as if it’s 1942 and Hitler has sent troops to the US marching around threatening locals and taking towns as Nazi German territory.
What place in society do thing these people could ever have? Do you think they’re going to wake up some day and go “gee, ya know what? I’m going to put away my guns and not be racist anymore.”? They’re not. They’re going to breed, then their children are going to be taught to be the same fucking trash they are. You’re not going to fix these assholes.
Do all of us deserve to be run over by a car? What if we’re wearing some ridiculous costume? What if we’re armed? What if we’re calling for the eradication of a group of people because of their beliefs?
They are coming for our fellow brothers and sisters for no other reason than “being the wrong color”.
They intend to do harm or threaten harm. Doesn’t matter if those people are children, elderly, women, or anything else. Be concerned and stop nazis by any means necessary.
But not doing anything, you are “tolerating” it. Do not “tolerate” it. That will just let them know they are welcome to try and will not face significant opposition or consequences.
Thank you. I fixed it to “when” instead of if. I was using “if” in an ambiguous way.
I’m glad you agree we should use “any way necessary” since most people replying to me are saying the only way to stop the people in the photo is to run them over with a car.
I’m not sure who you’re reply to when you say “not doing anything” since I’ve said over and over we should stop them from intimidating others. It’s already illegal. Let’s try a legal way first. Main point from the beginning has been let’s be better than jumping straight to murder.
I see in other threads, you like Babylon 5 and you’ll do the ol’-redddit-a-roo which I’m very fond of.
I’m disappointed I can’t meet you in real life. We could discuss this over some nice food. I could learn about your interests and your worldview. I bet we could even find we have a significant amount of common ground in our opinions.
I’m sure I’m misunderstanding and you’re saying something more nuanced than what I’m hearing you say. Or maybe you really are saying people with fascist beliefs deserve to be murdered for trying to intimidate others. And then I’d be able to listen to all the assumptions and reasoning supporting that position. Perhaps it would even sway me to take up arms and start hunting people.
^ This is pretty much what I mean when I’m replying with “okay” but I’ve spent more time on this thread than I probably should have, so I just gave a terse reply to let them know I heard them and won’t be countering their reply. If they want to take that as a win, they’re welcome to.
Them having rifles cannot be solved without vastly different gun laws in the U.S.
They absolutely should be prevented from causing harm. I just don’t these particular people (based solely on this photograph) should be thrown in the gas chambers already.
We should do much, much more to prevent them acting on their beliefs. We’re not out of peaceful options yet.
I don’t think their beliefs should be protected, and if they’re inciting violence, nether should their words. They’ve broken the social contract. We don’t need to tolerate their actions. But an immediate jump to violence also breaks the social contract. It is incredibly frustrating and nearly impossible to stay on the right side of history when these are the people you’re up against.
There are many, many, many things these people are doing that already deserve consequences. Those consequences must include reprogramming. They must include limiting access to guns and social pressure to communicate how wrong their views are.
But again, what’s in the photograph doesn’t justify vehicular manslaughter—no matter how sweet that revenge would be.
I’m going to tell two long stories, and anyone with an aversion to the following should look away:Genocide, torture, rape, paedophilia, mass graves, murder, etc.
My Grandmother was born in 's-Hertogenbosch, and she never spoke directly to me about this, this is all from my father. I don’t give a fuck who beleives or does not believe any of this, it all happened and you can read more online if you like trauma.and when the Nazi’s invaded in 1940, she immediately joined the Dutch resistance (which was run by the Communist party, which she joined as well).
Her family helped Jewish people, Romani, Communists, etc escape the country (With the Romani, it is estimated that almost every single one never fully made it out.) As things got worse and worse, she got more involved in direct resistance. My grandmother worked as ‘bait’ to lure Nazi soldiers into alleyways at night. She had killed ‘at least five of the fucks’ including when she slit a pedophile Nazi’s throat in an alleyway.
She was born in 1925, and killed that Nazi pedophile before her 16th birthday.
She continued to fight against them, getting as many people out of the country as she could. In 1942 she was captured by the Germans, and sent to where we believe (she wasn’t exactly keen to speak on it) was Ravensbruck. To give you an idea of how fucking awful things were, because it’s always worse than you think:
There were children in the camp as well. At first, they arrived with mothers who were Romani or Jews incarcerated in the camp or were born to imprisoned women.[11] There were few children early on, including a few Czech children from Lidice in July 1942. Later the children in the camp represented almost all nations of Europe occupied by Germany. Between April and October 1944, their number increased considerably, consisting of two groups. One group was composed of Romani children brought into the camp with their mothers or sisters after the Romani camp in Auschwitz-Birkenau was closed. The other group included mostly children who were brought with Polish mothers sent to Ravensbrück after the collapse of the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. Most of these children died of starvation.
In January 1945, the SS also transformed a hut near the crematorium into a gas chamber, where they murdered several thousand prisoners before the camp’s liberation in April 1945; in particular, they executed some 3,600 prisoners from the Uckermark police camp for “deviant” girls and women, which was taken under the control of the Ravensbrück SS at the start of 1945.
The only story she ever told from the camp was the following. Just a note this is her speaking in Dutch to my father, who then translated it into English for me much later:
We were always hungry, and most people starved to death. You would work to death, or be raped to death, or tortured (medical experiment possible, my father was unsure.)
I was standing in line for food, when the woman in front of me died on her feet. She collapsed against me, so I walked with her up to the counter, and got food for us both. I carried her and lay her down beside a tent, and took her food to her daughter, who had been killed an hour earlier. So I ate both bowls of food. Maybe that’s why I made it.
At this point she silently sobbed and refused to every speak of it again.
She was released from the camp before 1945, however, though we never found out how. There’s a suspicion that her father collaborated for her release, as he committed suicide before the war ended.
My grandfather (other side of the family) wanted to join the war the minute Canada called for volunteers. He failed the entrance exams, as his vision (and hearing) were both terrible. Undeterred by this, he cheated his way through by memorizing the eye-chart, and would only wink at me and make a money symbol (rubbing thumb and index finger together). So I guess he bribed his way in? That does sound like something he would do.
He was a dispatch rider, and he drove a motorcycle with a side car. He went with the Canadian army all across Europe, and even spent time in North Africa. He refused to ever tell me (or any other children) any negative stories about the war, it was always about how they found a bunch of chickens, and (claims) “…I drove through half of Sicily with a live chicken in the sidecar - I wanted him to have a good view, and finally get to fly!”
What he didn’t tell me, that he did tell my father, were the bad stories, in particular:
"I was heading into Germany itself, I don’t remember where, with a huge convoy, mile after mile of vehicles going maybe 5 miles/hour. It was night so we had blackout lights on, which for me meant I couldn’t really see anything. Everything smelled awful in war, and everywhere the Nazi’s had been smelled like rot. I had to get a message to the front of the convoy, but on one side of it was a cliff upward with a small ditch, and on the other side was another tiny ditch and a massive fall down a few hundred feet. I went on the wall side, and had to drive in the ditch.
There was about a foot between me and the convoy trucks on the left, bumper-to-bumper, slowly creeping along. A couple feet to the right is a wall (The cliff). The ditch is so bumpy I’m having trouble driving over it, and there’s suddenly some moonlight and I look down to see what is happening.
For mile, after mile, after mile, are corpses of women and children from the surrounding villages. I couldn’t go left, I’d collide with a truck, I couldn’t stop because I was so scared, and to my right was a wall. It would take longer to drive back than forward, and I couldn’t turn around. The bumps I was feeling wasn’t just from going over the corpses, it was them crushing under the wheels. I vomited sideways for as long as I drove, barely able to stay seated, but I couldn’t speed up because the corpses would pulp and cause me to skid and fall. By the time I made it out I had to stop and fainted. "
My grandfather was 24 when the war ended. He did not sleep through a single entire night for the rest of his life, until he passed at 95. He spent every night not just in a different bed from my grandmother, but a different room. He would wake, even from naps, screaming and clawing and flailing. I only ever once heard him sobbing and begging forgiveness.
I asked him if he’d had to shoot someone, myself a curious 10 year old. He told me never fired a shot in anger, when ambushed he fired his gun into the air, telling me “I didn’t want to hit anyone, tomorrow they could be my friend.”
So when you tell me: "Those people in the photo are just LARPing down the street. They should probably be investigated to see if they’re planning violence. "
I refuse to wait until there’s another fucking Ravensbruck, another fucking DITCH FULL OF MILES OF DEAD CHILDREN, I say FUCK YOU, FUCK YOUR FUCKING COMPLACENCY.
I’m going to go die holding these people back from your kids, at least have the decency to not look away when they start doing it.
Thank you for sharing. If anyone isn’t anti-fascist yet, reading that would help persuade them.
I wonder how many marching nazis have you killed already. Or if you’re not arguing the people the photo should have been murdered already, have you been fighting them in other ways first? If it’s the later, then we agree. If it’s the former, that’s very brave of you to do that on everyone’s behalf. I hope it’s worth it. It’s a big sacrifice.
My life would be far easier if someone killed all the current nazis and no more grew up to replace them. I’d love to not worry about them. Though I hope there’s peaceful way to end fascism, and that these people in the photo can be saved.
I wonder how many marching nazis have you killed already.
None, Nazi’s aren’t stupid enough to march in the open in Canada*. If any come out in Vancouver, I’ll be sure to have a polite political discussion with them where I show them the impact a single fist can have.
Though I hope there’s peaceful way to end fascism, and that these people in the photo can be saved.
Ask Neville Chamberlain how diplomacy works with Nazis. Ask the Association of German National Jews how working with them went. You want to save people, cool so do I. So don’t shoot them. My grandfather didn’t, but he also didn’t ask that we really, really try to persuade them not to follow through on literally all of their goals. Which Nazi goal are we ok with? How far are we going to allow a group whose entire basis is the death and torture of everyone except themselves? How exactly are you going to deprogramme these people? Get them to sit down for a few months while you run cult deprogramming, which they will allow, because…?
You’re walking right into the paradox of tolerance. You think there’s some way you can work with these people, but you need to understand, this entire ideology is sociopathic. You’re sitting here saying we need to sit down and try to persuade Hannibal Lector in how to act in polite society with maybe less eating people. Hitler was appointed Chancellor in 1933. We had years of warning of what was happening, and instead we tried to talk to them, hey please don’t invade more places, please stop this genocide thing.
My grandmother watched kristallnacht from Holland. You could see the buildings burning from miles away, across borders.
These people aren’t a different political ideology. They also don’t just target Jewish people, 2SLGBTQI+, Communists, Socialists, Romani (the few who are left), slavic people.
Prostitutes, Romani, homosexuals, and women who refused to marry were lumped together, with black triangles.
That tradwife shit? They’re going to decide who women have to marry, who are going to be breeding stock, who will RUN the death camps, and who are going to GO TO fucking death camps. There’s no other fucking option, that’s it.
If you don’t want to fight, don’t. If you want to try to bargain with them, whatever. Just know you won’t be first, but you won’t be last. While you argue with them they’ll take over ICE, or the FBI or whatever, and it won’t just be immigrants they put in cages while you watch. It’ll be your mother, sister, aunt, daughter.
If you’re an American, go to these rallies, at least be part of the human wall between the vulnerable in your group and them. Talk, give Ben Shapiro, the new head of the Association of German National Jews his platform while you debate against it. It will fail, and somewhere a 15 year old girl is going to be forced to do what you won’t.
It’s 1933, Quisling, how much rope do you want to hang yourself?
You remind me of Daryl Davis. He’s a black American that successfully converted a few high profile KKK “wizards”. It’s basically his lifetime work. He was both praised and vilified by many in the civil rights movement.
On the one hand, what he achieved is almost unbelievable. On the other hand, however, racism is at a high not seen in many decades.
So, is it effective? Isn’t it time, like someone said above, to meet them with force?
It seems to others, yes we’ve held off killing nazis long enough. I’m not sure we’re there yet. I appreciate your comment acknowledges there are shades of gray on this. And if you’re saying to you it’s time now, I can appreciate that.
Those people in the photo are just LARPing down the street. They should probably be investigated to see if they’re planning violence. But no one needs to run them over with a car because of what they’re doing in the photo.
They have rifles. Pull your head out of your ass, the benefit of doubt is what’s gotten us to this point already.
✨️Please be nice to the nazis. We can definitely win them over with peace, tolerance, and understanding, and we can expect them to do the same.✨️
I never said tolerate them. I said don’t kill them for walking down the street with guns.
What in the world do you think they intend to do with those guns?
IfWhen it’s intimidation, we absolutely should stop that.But we have more tools to stop them than making speed bumps out of them. We’re allowed to be smart about things.
Being smart about things means learning from history and declaring war on the Nazis immediately, before they convince more people to join.
You know, I’m not one to ever say a nazi was right about anything, but one thing is for sure, their opponents should have struck hard and without mercy at their very core from the beginning.
Allowing them to continue just gave them their power.
Act immediately, yes. War: no.
No I mean it, it should be open season on Nazis again, war should unironically be declared on them and it should be treated as if it’s 1942 and Hitler has sent troops to the US marching around threatening locals and taking towns as Nazi German territory.
What place in society do thing these people could ever have? Do you think they’re going to wake up some day and go “gee, ya know what? I’m going to put away my guns and not be racist anymore.”? They’re not. They’re going to breed, then their children are going to be taught to be the same fucking trash they are. You’re not going to fix these assholes.
That’s what they think about you, too.
How should we decide who’s right?
Do all of us deserve to be run over by a car? What if we’re wearing some ridiculous costume? What if we’re armed? What if we’re calling for the eradication of a group of people because of their beliefs?
I’m calling on the eradication of nazis for their beliefs.
You a fucking nazi sympathizer? Or are you a nazi? God damn.
“If”?
“If”???
They are coming for our fellow brothers and sisters for no other reason than “being the wrong color”.
They intend to do harm or threaten harm. Doesn’t matter if those people are children, elderly, women, or anything else. Be concerned and stop nazis by any means necessary.
But not doing anything, you are “tolerating” it. Do not “tolerate” it. That will just let them know they are welcome to try and will not face significant opposition or consequences.
Thank you. I fixed it to “when” instead of if. I was using “if” in an ambiguous way.
I’m glad you agree we should use “any way necessary” since most people replying to me are saying the only way to stop the people in the photo is to run them over with a car.
I’m not sure who you’re reply to when you say “not doing anything” since I’ve said over and over we should stop them from intimidating others. It’s already illegal. Let’s try a legal way first. Main point from the beginning has been let’s be better than jumping straight to murder.
So, tolerate them. Copy that.
I see in other threads, you like Babylon 5 and you’ll do the ol’-redddit-a-roo which I’m very fond of.
I’m disappointed I can’t meet you in real life. We could discuss this over some nice food. I could learn about your interests and your worldview. I bet we could even find we have a significant amount of common ground in our opinions.
I’m sure I’m misunderstanding and you’re saying something more nuanced than what I’m hearing you say. Or maybe you really are saying people with fascist beliefs deserve to be murdered for trying to intimidate others. And then I’d be able to listen to all the assumptions and reasoning supporting that position. Perhaps it would even sway me to take up arms and start hunting people.
^ This is pretty much what I mean when I’m replying with “okay” but I’ve spent more time on this thread than I probably should have, so I just gave a terse reply to let them know I heard them and won’t be countering their reply. If they want to take that as a win, they’re welcome to.
Them having rifles cannot be solved without vastly different gun laws in the U.S.
They absolutely should be prevented from causing harm. I just don’t these particular people (based solely on this photograph) should be thrown in the gas chambers already.
We should do much, much more to prevent them acting on their beliefs. We’re not out of peaceful options yet.
I don’t think their beliefs should be protected, and if they’re inciting violence, nether should their words. They’ve broken the social contract. We don’t need to tolerate their actions. But an immediate jump to violence also breaks the social contract. It is incredibly frustrating and nearly impossible to stay on the right side of history when these are the people you’re up against.
There are many, many, many things these people are doing that already deserve consequences. Those consequences must include reprogramming. They must include limiting access to guns and social pressure to communicate how wrong their views are.
But again, what’s in the photograph doesn’t justify vehicular manslaughter—no matter how sweet that revenge would be.
I’m going to tell two long stories, and anyone with an aversion to the following should look away: Genocide, torture, rape, paedophilia, mass graves, murder, etc.
/u/Zachariah, I think you should read.
Quickly, this is not the story of Freddie Oversteegen, Truus Oversteegen, and Hannie Schaft, though they are absolutely incredible badasses with even more insane stories of just the incredible amount of heart and fight that young girls the world over keep managing to summon.
My Grandmother was born in 's-Hertogenbosch, and she never spoke directly to me about this, this is all from my father. I don’t give a fuck who beleives or does not believe any of this, it all happened and you can read more online if you like trauma.and when the Nazi’s invaded in 1940, she immediately joined the Dutch resistance (which was run by the Communist party, which she joined as well).
Her family helped Jewish people, Romani, Communists, etc escape the country (With the Romani, it is estimated that almost every single one never fully made it out.) As things got worse and worse, she got more involved in direct resistance. My grandmother worked as ‘bait’ to lure Nazi soldiers into alleyways at night. She had killed ‘at least five of the fucks’ including when she slit a pedophile Nazi’s throat in an alleyway.
She was born in 1925, and killed that Nazi pedophile before her 16th birthday.
She continued to fight against them, getting as many people out of the country as she could. In 1942 she was captured by the Germans, and sent to where we believe (she wasn’t exactly keen to speak on it) was Ravensbruck. To give you an idea of how fucking awful things were, because it’s always worse than you think:
The only story she ever told from the camp was the following. Just a note this is her speaking in Dutch to my father, who then translated it into English for me much later:
At this point she silently sobbed and refused to every speak of it again.
She was released from the camp before 1945, however, though we never found out how. There’s a suspicion that her father collaborated for her release, as he committed suicide before the war ended.
My grandfather (other side of the family) wanted to join the war the minute Canada called for volunteers. He failed the entrance exams, as his vision (and hearing) were both terrible. Undeterred by this, he cheated his way through by memorizing the eye-chart, and would only wink at me and make a money symbol (rubbing thumb and index finger together). So I guess he bribed his way in? That does sound like something he would do.
He was a dispatch rider, and he drove a motorcycle with a side car. He went with the Canadian army all across Europe, and even spent time in North Africa. He refused to ever tell me (or any other children) any negative stories about the war, it was always about how they found a bunch of chickens, and (claims) “…I drove through half of Sicily with a live chicken in the sidecar - I wanted him to have a good view, and finally get to fly!”
What he didn’t tell me, that he did tell my father, were the bad stories, in particular:
"I was heading into Germany itself, I don’t remember where, with a huge convoy, mile after mile of vehicles going maybe 5 miles/hour. It was night so we had blackout lights on, which for me meant I couldn’t really see anything. Everything smelled awful in war, and everywhere the Nazi’s had been smelled like rot. I had to get a message to the front of the convoy, but on one side of it was a cliff upward with a small ditch, and on the other side was another tiny ditch and a massive fall down a few hundred feet. I went on the wall side, and had to drive in the ditch.
There was about a foot between me and the convoy trucks on the left, bumper-to-bumper, slowly creeping along. A couple feet to the right is a wall (The cliff). The ditch is so bumpy I’m having trouble driving over it, and there’s suddenly some moonlight and I look down to see what is happening.
For mile, after mile, after mile, are corpses of women and children from the surrounding villages. I couldn’t go left, I’d collide with a truck, I couldn’t stop because I was so scared, and to my right was a wall. It would take longer to drive back than forward, and I couldn’t turn around. The bumps I was feeling wasn’t just from going over the corpses, it was them crushing under the wheels. I vomited sideways for as long as I drove, barely able to stay seated, but I couldn’t speed up because the corpses would pulp and cause me to skid and fall. By the time I made it out I had to stop and fainted. "
My grandfather was 24 when the war ended. He did not sleep through a single entire night for the rest of his life, until he passed at 95. He spent every night not just in a different bed from my grandmother, but a different room. He would wake, even from naps, screaming and clawing and flailing. I only ever once heard him sobbing and begging forgiveness.
I asked him if he’d had to shoot someone, myself a curious 10 year old. He told me never fired a shot in anger, when ambushed he fired his gun into the air, telling me “I didn’t want to hit anyone, tomorrow they could be my friend.”
So when you tell me: "Those people in the photo are just LARPing down the street. They should probably be investigated to see if they’re planning violence. "
I refuse to wait until there’s another fucking Ravensbruck, another fucking DITCH FULL OF MILES OF DEAD CHILDREN, I say FUCK YOU, FUCK YOUR FUCKING COMPLACENCY.
I’m going to go die holding these people back from your kids, at least have the decency to not look away when they start doing it.
Thank you for sharing. If anyone isn’t anti-fascist yet, reading that would help persuade them.
I wonder how many marching nazis have you killed already. Or if you’re not arguing the people the photo should have been murdered already, have you been fighting them in other ways first? If it’s the later, then we agree. If it’s the former, that’s very brave of you to do that on everyone’s behalf. I hope it’s worth it. It’s a big sacrifice.
My life would be far easier if someone killed all the current nazis and no more grew up to replace them. I’d love to not worry about them. Though I hope there’s peaceful way to end fascism, and that these people in the photo can be saved.
None, Nazi’s aren’t stupid enough to march in the open in Canada*. If any come out in Vancouver, I’ll be sure to have a polite political discussion with them where I show them the impact a single fist can have.
Ask Neville Chamberlain how diplomacy works with Nazis. Ask the Association of German National Jews how working with them went. You want to save people, cool so do I. So don’t shoot them. My grandfather didn’t, but he also didn’t ask that we really, really try to persuade them not to follow through on literally all of their goals. Which Nazi goal are we ok with? How far are we going to allow a group whose entire basis is the death and torture of everyone except themselves? How exactly are you going to deprogramme these people? Get them to sit down for a few months while you run cult deprogramming, which they will allow, because…?
You’re walking right into the paradox of tolerance. You think there’s some way you can work with these people, but you need to understand, this entire ideology is sociopathic. You’re sitting here saying we need to sit down and try to persuade Hannibal Lector in how to act in polite society with maybe less eating people. Hitler was appointed Chancellor in 1933. We had years of warning of what was happening, and instead we tried to talk to them, hey please don’t invade more places, please stop this genocide thing.
My grandmother watched kristallnacht from Holland. You could see the buildings burning from miles away, across borders.
These people aren’t a different political ideology. They also don’t just target Jewish people, 2SLGBTQI+, Communists, Socialists, Romani (the few who are left), slavic people.
That tradwife shit? They’re going to decide who women have to marry, who are going to be breeding stock, who will RUN the death camps, and who are going to GO TO fucking death camps. There’s no other fucking option, that’s it.
If you don’t want to fight, don’t. If you want to try to bargain with them, whatever. Just know you won’t be first, but you won’t be last. While you argue with them they’ll take over ICE, or the FBI or whatever, and it won’t just be immigrants they put in cages while you watch. It’ll be your mother, sister, aunt, daughter.
If you’re an American, go to these rallies, at least be part of the human wall between the vulnerable in your group and them. Talk, give Ben Shapiro, the new head of the Association of German National Jews his platform while you debate against it. It will fail, and somewhere a 15 year old girl is going to be forced to do what you won’t.
It’s 1933, Quisling, how much rope do you want to hang yourself?
(*https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKTSlV2WQAIiuxV?format=png&name=small If I had been there, yes I would have thrown myself in fist-first. I’d rather be the first to die fighting them than live to see them win.)
Okay.
Are you 5?
🤷♂️
You remind me of Daryl Davis. He’s a black American that successfully converted a few high profile KKK “wizards”. It’s basically his lifetime work. He was both praised and vilified by many in the civil rights movement.
On the one hand, what he achieved is almost unbelievable. On the other hand, however, racism is at a high not seen in many decades.
So, is it effective? Isn’t it time, like someone said above, to meet them with force?
It seems to others, yes we’ve held off killing nazis long enough. I’m not sure we’re there yet. I appreciate your comment acknowledges there are shades of gray on this. And if you’re saying to you it’s time now, I can appreciate that.