Wasn’t Vance officially chosen by the delegates at the RNC? Can Trump actually pick someone else now? What would the party have to do to change their nomination after the convention-hold an emergency meeting and revote?
The president and vice president are chosen by the electoral college in separate votes.
Though, for some time, it’s always been the winning candidate’s selected running mate… there is no requirement there. The electors could pick Mittens the back flipping poodle for VP if they wanted.
Fun fact, the VP was originally supposed to be whoever got second place in the presidential election…until they figured out that the candidates might hate each other and that relationship isn’t so great for a president and their VP.
It’s not so much that as that the coalitions and eventual parties wanted to hold both seats, so they ran multiple candidates with the assumption that one would be president and the other vice president. The electors would then structure their votes to ensure that the correct person was elected to each position. However, with the difficulties in long-distance communication at the time, this was prone to error. In 1800, this almost led to the candidate for vice president being elected as president.
After that, they realized that it didn’t make sense to use one slate of candidates for both positions, so they separated out the ballot into president and vice president. That’s essentially how the elections had been running up to that point (particularly because they always had two votes to cast), but it was to easy to make a mistake. Both before and after the amendment, there was a presidential candidate with a running mate vying for the vice presidency.
Thanks for the additional context. And yeah, you’re right about the coalitions trying to control both spots.
I don’t think we can totally ignore that the 1796 Adams-Jefferson presidency was a vivid example to Congress–specifically, the congress that eventually passed the 12th amendment after the dumpster fire of the 1800 election–on the importance of relationship dynamics in getting things done.
The interesting thing to me about this is that after Washington, there had always been running mates, and the problem wasn’t that the President and Vice President may be political opponents. The problem was the old system was open to gamesmanship that thwarted the will of the voters.
1796 did not end with an Adams-Jefferson administration because Jefferson came in second. If things went as planned, it would have been Adams-Pinckney instead. But Hamilton preferred Pinckney over Adams and tried to sway the electors for Jefferson-Burr to vote Jefferson-Pinckney instead, which would have led to a Pinckney-Adams administration despite Pinckney campaigning with Adams as his presumptive Vice President. However, his plan didn’t work out, and Jefferson ended up getting the second most number of votes. This led to an Adams-Jefferson administration which was not supposed to happen. This was bad, but the shady dealings happened in the dark, and Adams was at least elected President in accordance to the popular vote. The politicians at the time thought that they could just sweep this under the rug as they now had a better understanding of how to manage their electors.
But, that turned out to be false. In 1800, they planned to be smarter with allocating the electors’ votes, but the Democratic-Republicans failed and accidentally cast the same number of votes for both Jefferson and Burr. Under the Constitution, a tie is decided in the House, and the makeup of the House meant that Federalists had the advantage. They preferred Burr over Jefferson, so they tried to subvert the election and appoint a Burr-Jefferson administration rather than Jefferson-Burr. Hamilton ultimately convinced the Federalists to relent and give the election to Jefferson. This was now the second time that Hamilton intervened to orchestrate the results of the election, and this time, it was all out in the open on the House floor. Furthermore, in both of these instances, Hamilton’s actions screwed over Burr, leading to the infamous Hamilton-Burr duel that left Hamilton dead and Burr disgraced. So not only did the election show that this Constitution was failing in the democratic ideals of the revolution, it also led to the untimely downfall of two of the country’s top political leaders.
So yes, the 1796 election exposed a pretty major issue, and the 1800 election showed that that issue could not be ignored. However, if you’re suggesting that the 1796 election led to the 12th Amendment because it showed the problems that arise when the President and Vice President are not politically aligned, I’m not so sure. It’s possible, but I don’t think that was a revelation to them. At the very least, the parties at the time were always trying to fill both offices with specific people, even before the 12th Amendment. The biggest problem they were trying to address was the way that the old system could be gamed by political elites.
Also, sorry for the big wall of text. I just find this to be a very interesting topic.
Agree that they would happily bend any rules for trump, but the RNC already happened and they chose Vance as the VP candidate. How does the Republican Party change their rules now? They would need to have some sort of party vote I think. Emergency RNC 2.0?
No, I’m sure they’ll try to support whatever he says. But, officially the party nominates the VP candidate which they’ve already done. When Trump tells them to change it, I don’t know what mechanism exists to actually do that. The campaign on its own cannot change the ticket.
Wasn’t Vance officially chosen by the delegates at the RNC? Can Trump actually pick someone else now? What would the party have to do to change their nomination after the convention-hold an emergency meeting and revote?
At this point there’s no way to do it legally. Ballots are already being printed. But legality’s not an issue for Trump and his personal fan club.
I think Vance could step down, then Trump would have no running mate, I think? And a VP would be appointed by Congress if he wins? Idk.
Technically,
The president and vice president are chosen by the electoral college in separate votes.
Though, for some time, it’s always been the winning candidate’s selected running mate… there is no requirement there. The electors could pick Mittens the back flipping poodle for VP if they wanted.
Fun fact, the VP was originally supposed to be whoever got second place in the presidential election…until they figured out that the candidates might hate each other and that relationship isn’t so great for a president and their VP.
It’s not so much that as that the coalitions and eventual parties wanted to hold both seats, so they ran multiple candidates with the assumption that one would be president and the other vice president. The electors would then structure their votes to ensure that the correct person was elected to each position. However, with the difficulties in long-distance communication at the time, this was prone to error. In 1800, this almost led to the candidate for vice president being elected as president.
After that, they realized that it didn’t make sense to use one slate of candidates for both positions, so they separated out the ballot into president and vice president. That’s essentially how the elections had been running up to that point (particularly because they always had two votes to cast), but it was to easy to make a mistake. Both before and after the amendment, there was a presidential candidate with a running mate vying for the vice presidency.
Thanks for the additional context. And yeah, you’re right about the coalitions trying to control both spots.
I don’t think we can totally ignore that the 1796 Adams-Jefferson presidency was a vivid example to Congress–specifically, the congress that eventually passed the 12th amendment after the dumpster fire of the 1800 election–on the importance of relationship dynamics in getting things done.
I actually had written an answer about the effects of the 12th amendment on the politics StackExchange that details how the original elections worked (or failed) under the old system.
The interesting thing to me about this is that after Washington, there had always been running mates, and the problem wasn’t that the President and Vice President may be political opponents. The problem was the old system was open to gamesmanship that thwarted the will of the voters.
1796 did not end with an Adams-Jefferson administration because Jefferson came in second. If things went as planned, it would have been Adams-Pinckney instead. But Hamilton preferred Pinckney over Adams and tried to sway the electors for Jefferson-Burr to vote Jefferson-Pinckney instead, which would have led to a Pinckney-Adams administration despite Pinckney campaigning with Adams as his presumptive Vice President. However, his plan didn’t work out, and Jefferson ended up getting the second most number of votes. This led to an Adams-Jefferson administration which was not supposed to happen. This was bad, but the shady dealings happened in the dark, and Adams was at least elected President in accordance to the popular vote. The politicians at the time thought that they could just sweep this under the rug as they now had a better understanding of how to manage their electors.
But, that turned out to be false. In 1800, they planned to be smarter with allocating the electors’ votes, but the Democratic-Republicans failed and accidentally cast the same number of votes for both Jefferson and Burr. Under the Constitution, a tie is decided in the House, and the makeup of the House meant that Federalists had the advantage. They preferred Burr over Jefferson, so they tried to subvert the election and appoint a Burr-Jefferson administration rather than Jefferson-Burr. Hamilton ultimately convinced the Federalists to relent and give the election to Jefferson. This was now the second time that Hamilton intervened to orchestrate the results of the election, and this time, it was all out in the open on the House floor. Furthermore, in both of these instances, Hamilton’s actions screwed over Burr, leading to the infamous Hamilton-Burr duel that left Hamilton dead and Burr disgraced. So not only did the election show that this Constitution was failing in the democratic ideals of the revolution, it also led to the untimely downfall of two of the country’s top political leaders.
So yes, the 1796 election exposed a pretty major issue, and the 1800 election showed that that issue could not be ignored. However, if you’re suggesting that the 1796 election led to the 12th Amendment because it showed the problems that arise when the President and Vice President are not politically aligned, I’m not so sure. It’s possible, but I don’t think that was a revelation to them. At the very least, the parties at the time were always trying to fill both offices with specific people, even before the 12th Amendment. The biggest problem they were trying to address was the way that the old system could be gamed by political elites.
Also, sorry for the big wall of text. I just find this to be a very interesting topic.
I’ve had fun learning more about it and that includes your exceptional replies. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!
TRUMP
MITTENS
Size S
It would be peak Trump to announce a VP change without checking if it was actually possible 🍿🍿
Trump can do pretty much anything he wants. No one in the GOP has any power to stop him and the moon that supports him.
Lol I meant “mob” but I’ll leave it :p
Trump can do any goddamn thing he wants. SCOTUS will step in to make sure RFK is on the ballots if needed.
Democrats: “We’re suing to keep Vance on the ballot”
SCOTUS: “Actually, Trump can do whatever he wants, plus we’re giving him 100 free electoral votes because fuck you.”
The RNC can just change its rules.
Or simply not follow them like history has shown
Agree that they would happily bend any rules for trump, but the RNC already happened and they chose Vance as the VP candidate. How does the Republican Party change their rules now? They would need to have some sort of party vote I think. Emergency RNC 2.0?
Like they’d get in trump’s way?
No, I’m sure they’ll try to support whatever he says. But, officially the party nominates the VP candidate which they’ve already done. When Trump tells them to change it, I don’t know what mechanism exists to actually do that. The campaign on its own cannot change the ticket.