Dear Admins of the Lemmy.world instance I am asking that you please consider defederating from the rammy.site instance as soon as possible as the admin is no where to be found and it has been taken over by right wing posters posting hateful messages. There are also other people posting large amounts of spam and creating empty communities. What was once a small hobby run general purpose instance has been turned over and made into a festering right wing hate filled breeding ground by the people from exploding-heads. The only recoarse left it seems is to defederate to prevent them from spreading hate to other instances.
PS. I already sent this message to multiple admins here, sorry about that I just felt it was urgent to make sure the message was sent before these people cause more damage.
They need to give us (the users) the ability to block instances. So people will stop posting this stuff all the time and we (the people) will have the power.
EDIT Also I love how people never have proof (links or screenshots) to prove you’re not lying.
That feature definitely needs to be added soon…
However, instances that spread hate and propoganda should be defederated from regardless if people can block the instance individually. They should not be given an audience to radicalize.
I agree with both of these points, users definitely need the ability to block instances that they don’t want to see
Instances which violate your home instance’s rules or are a threat to the instance should be defederated to protect the users on that instance and maintain a healthy community.
Ideas should be fought with ideas, not censorship
Propoganda is not a genuine exchange of ideas, and users should not be subjected to hate and bigotry.
Given I haven’t actually looked into any of the material talked about in this post, is it possible they are not necessarily just ideas and instead demonstrably false misinformation.
If it’s demonstrably false misinformation instead of ideas then yeah they should probably be defeaterated.
No, historically the most effective method is not giving them a platform to take advantage of in the first place.
A tolerant society cannot be tolerant of the intolerant. Hence, defederation it is!
Those aren’t ideas coming out of there. Ideas require conscious thought.
And behavior should be fought with behavior.
Not here though. This is not a free speech platform and we never claimed it was. We want to be a welcoming instance and those kind of discussions can be had somewhere else. Have a look at those instances that hide behind “free speech” just to be able to say terrible things. No thank you
We want to be a welcoming instance and those kind of discussions can be head somewhere else.
I know it probably wasn’t intentional but I love what you did there “can be head somewhere else”, I just think it’s kind of funny because the malicous users are from the instance known as exploding-heads. I know I’m such a dork.
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
There is an open issue at https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2397 but I don’t know if anyone is working on it.
deleted by creator
You can simply go to the website to check for yourself. No need to post vile stuff in here.
This feature is available in Connect for Lemmy.
It was my experience that feature was janky and didn’t actually work on Connect.
It also works in Nemmy.
Disclosure that I’m the main Nemmy dev :)
That’s nice but only a frontend app filter. It should be platform independent and linked to the account, like blocked communities.
EDIT Also I love how people never have proof (links or screenshots) to prove you’re not lying.
“That’s awful, where can I find it” is what that sounds like.
I know you didn’t intend it that way but it does kind of sound that way. Also if you do want to see it or you think I’m lying you can just go to https://rammy.site and see for yourself, it’s not hard to find at all. I’m not going to post links to the posts though, that feels very much like promoting and/or endorsing them and I don’t want to cater to people who want to look at awful stuff either as doom scrolling or because they’re Nazis themselves, if I’m going to send links to anyone it would be the Admins of lemmy.world, I didn’t feel the need though because like I said you can just go look there at the main page of the site.
Also it’s already been defederated (hence why I’m now on Lemmy.ca) so I think this situation is resolved.
To everyone who’s been telling OP off, claiming “free speech” and such: there’s still free speech. They can say whatever they want, but we don’t want to hear it. To correct myself: the majority of us don’t want to hear it. You have every right to convert instances if you disagree. Moderation is always going to be opinion-based; everyone has their own opinion of right and wrong.
So don’t talk about “free speech” and then wonder why you get downvoted into oblivion. We simply don’t want to have to deal with this nonsense. Keep in mind too that Lemmy doesn’t let you block an instance yet(AFAIK); it’s up to the instance admins. Just like a government, a user is going to pick the instance to best represent them. And just like a government, that instance will probably act in favor of the majority. So please just stop complaining. There is no plus to federating with rammy.site and frankly, we don’t need them.
They are not going to stop complaining. A lot of the folks that are on these instances that get blocked have alts or create new ones just to concern troll. It was obvious in this thread yesterday: “wow you defederated preemptively from hexbear but the obvious Anti-Trans right-wing instance stays? LW Admins must Nazi lovers and transphobes!” kind of posts. While in fact we were reaching out to the admin of rammy.site and having a talk/vote on how to proceed - even if it was obvious. This isn’t a one-man show and this isn’t a full time job it’s a hobby so it can take a while for everyone to get his or her vote in.
One of these trolls was an admin of hexbear who was dumb enough to use their name in their email address…
Another hexbear user was angry because I didn’t want to transfer a community over to her. She felt like she had the rights to !gamingcirclejerk@lemmy.world over the moderator who created it here on LW because she moderated the original community on reddit. She ask me to just hand it over to her and the reddit mods or rename the current existing one… After I denied to do that - but proposing the be the middle-man in the talks with the current moderator - she started saying “the community will not like that and they will react to this”.
So that’s another thing to keep in mind. I just ignore it now and ban the accounts because there is no talking or being reasonable with these people.
Honestly those ultra right-wingers are pretty bad but the ultra left-wingers are worse. And as a lefty that is pretty sad to see. But I’m probably not left enough for those on hexbear and still “imperialistic scum”.
The hexbear admin deleted most of their offense posts and then went on the Lemmy admin matrix chatroom saying how bad LW was to preemptively blocking hexbear, pretending to play nice. “It took them longer to defederate from exploding heads” so that must mean they are islamophobic, transphobic enablers."
As if it is not normal that you learn from your mistakes. Lemmy.World is less than 2 months old and we do what we think is best for this instance. We vote on these topics and then act. And we have no obligations to accept that kind of shitty behavior and have our users be confronted with it.
Keep up the good work
deleted by creator
I am one of those persons that mentioned the hexbear situation here. I was not concern trolling and I find it a bit harsh to lump everyone under this umbrella term this way.
The fact is, historically, many social media platforms have been quick to act against radical left speech but very slow (even complacent) to act against right wing extremism. Society as a whole is mostly like this. So yes, I do have concerns even though I understand this is all very new. No offence was meant by mentioning the previous situation, but it made sense to do it then, to my mind at least.
Thank you for your work moderating this platform.
Just want to say, I really appreciate this. It’s nice to see moderation/administration firmly put a foot down on right wing bullshit after seeing how much Reddit enabled it.
Thank you so much for your work moderating this instance, you and people like you are truly making lemmy a better place for all of us.
So don’t talk about “free speech” and then wonder why you get downvoted into oblivion.
Why? Because free speech! It’s super ironic to see people claim to support free speech above all else including human decency, and then go “Edit: All of you downvoting can eat shit and die, Lemmy is just like Reddit!!” Like dude, by your own standard people have the right to also be mad at you. You can’t say something like “free speech doesn’t care about your feelings” and then complain that people hurt your feelings.
I think the larger point is that hateful assholes are welcome to be hateful assholes online, but we aren’t required to help them do it.
Their freedom of speech doesn’t create an obligation for anyone to listen to them or grant them a platform.
Exactly. Also, saying you’re not allowed to exclude them from your spaces violates your freedom. Why should you be forced to interact with people who make you uncomfortable, especially in a social setting where everyone should find groups that they enjoy being with anyway?
People yelling freeze peach actually want to be free of consequences for their shitty opinions
man it’s not HER fault that bowser keeps kidnapping her
Freedom of speech, not freedom of reach.
First time I read that, and it’s brilliant! It describes perfectly what’s happening.
If you came up with that on your own, congrats. If you read somewhere, thanks for sharing.
I’m gonna add that free speech is free speech as long as it’s not used to threat and intimidate. Those people do not know what real free speech is.
deleted by creator
It’s you who don’t seem to understand what free speech is. Free speech is free speech period. As long as you have free speech you shouldn’t be concerned about someone intimidating you because you always have the chance to answer back and the truth always prevail on evil and bullshit.
*yells “fire” in a crowded theater
*Yells “nuuuuh uuuuuuh.” Back
Panic subsidies and movie watching continues.
Actually, even in “fullest freedom of speech” places like the US or Canada, that does not extend to actionable threats. If you threaten a person in a context where they actually think they are in danger, that’s a crime.
Free speech also doesn’t apply to harassment in pretty much any country. If it did you could never have something like a no-contact order on an abusive ex-partner, for example.
At the very extreme end, free speech has plenty of limits even in the West. CP, snuff films, grooming, non-consentual distribution of sexual images, incitement of violence, etc are all illegal. For obvious reasons.
Free speech is the ability to speak freely. It is not the ability to speak freely without consequence nor a guarantee to have people listen to what you say. Someone telling you to fuck off and shut up because they don’t want to hear your bullshit is their free speech right.
What anime did you get this idea of free speech from?
If you are interested in anime and japanese novels there’s plenty of these that will teach you about freedom and free speech, one piece is probably one of the most popular.
God this response is so adorable lol
the truth always prevail on evil and bullshit.
Oh to be so naive.
In the face of facts proving the election was not stolen while Trump presented zero evidence to show it was… how many Republicans still believe the lies to this day? It doesn’t help that the entire party carries water to support the lies…
This is no free speech platform. Go over to the server rules at https://mastodon.world/about
You dont understand the consequences of this take, I hope you get to understand one day.
I too hope that you understand that freedom is the only viable way to truth and justice
I too hope that you understand that pancakes is the only viable way to blueberries and syrup.
I too hope that you understand that breakfast is the only viable way to pancakes and maple syrup
Bullshit. You can have pancakes and maple syrup for any meal of the day.
Are you ok?
People should keep complaining though! Fine, Lemmy.world isn’t pro-freespeech, people should be aware so they can migrate to other instances.
Free speech means the government can’t stop you from saying something. It does not mean you have the right to be heard, or even to force people to listen, or that private companies (like Lemmy) can’t remove your ability to post to their platform. Hell, it doesn’t even mean you can say whatever you want without consequences, which can range from being blocked to being banned all the way up to being arrested if it’s a threat.
So, feel free to say whatever you want, just don’t be surprised when you lose your ability to post.
Good, bye then. People who don’t understand free speech and think it excuses widespread bigotry are more than welcome to leave and go fuck themselves.
Here’s the thing: A person may have freedom of speech, but the people around them also have freedom to think they’re an asshole and stop listening or responding. Getting banned from social media is not an infringement of free speech, it’s other people exercising their freedom to not want you around them anymore.
deleted by creator
Check https://mastodon.world/about - we are not a free speech platform and never claimed to be. It’s right there in the rules. Go to exploding-heads.com if you want “free speech”
You can block any subs you dont want to see. Start clicking.
And admins of instances can defederate any instances they don’t want to engage with. If you want to be on both start your own instance and federate with both. Start clicking.
Sure why not. I don’t like cats maybe we can block those too, or peanut butter, or the color yellow… At what point do we just scroll past the posts you don’t like or just block it? At some point you just gotta keep on going with your day and not have a break down over everything. Shit like this just gives those fucking morons more fuel to keep doing dumb shit.
The nature of these platforms means you can exactly get what content you want. Start up your own instance and stop bitching and expecting people to cater to your whims.
Haha you are arguing against yourself at this point. Since you seem to hate what is here wouldn’t it be more to your advantage to start your own instance?. Considering you are the one that is quote “Start up your own instance and stop bitching and expecting people to cater to your whims.”…
I’m not the one bitching about things that other people are doing.
Did you fall in a pool for a while as a kid or do you just have some kind of tism? Just curious why you don’t understand how words work.
deleted by creator
That’s why I joined unilem … they have a specific policy not to defederate from any instance … a policy with which I wholeheartedly agree. I’m not at all right wing, I hate Trump and I believe vaccines save lives. But I also believe that others have the absolute right to disagree. What’s more my beliefs are strong enough that I can handle seeing alternate opinions. What I absolutely don’t want is to spend my time in a echo chamber. You (and many others here) disagree and that’s fine too.
I’ll check that instance 👍
I am fine with people posting whatever. That said, let’s not confuse “I don’t want to subscribe” or “let’s not amplify” with “censorship”. Unless I misunderstand, nobody is trying to limit the right to post what you want. They are suggesting that there is enough divergence of preference between instances to “unsubscribe” as a group.
I was skeptical of this claim so I went and had a look. Here’s some of the posts I saw:
“Polar Ice Sheets are thicker than ever despite predictions that the Arctic and Antarctic would be ‘Ice free’”
“Leftist Parents “Flee” Florida Because Of New Laws Blocking Child Mutilation”
“It’s strange how you never see pedophiles, im sorry, drag queens reading to old people instead of kids”
So yeah some pretty insane takes there
I like the idea that Florida has introduced a progressive law. I think that’s the most unrealistic claim of all.
deleted by creator
There are, btw, many drag queens who do in fact entertain the elderly. My grandmother’s nursing home had one that came every Friday and was the best piano player I’ve ever seen in person.
Its different when its kids.
Removed by mod
Tell that to the churches, BY AND FAR the most abusive institutions to children in the entire history of the planet.
Churches and schools. I always see people mention church but they never mention that there is a huge issue in just about every type of school too.
Youth pastors need to be put in jail, but we should have way more mental health professionals around schools so they can pick out abusive relationships too.
I also should add, thayt all secondary behind blood family, care takers, and family friends. Drag queen readings are just about the only place where kids aren’t regularly getting molested.
We don’t actually give a shit about this in society, we know exactly where it happens most, in the home.
Need any buoys?
What, for the fact we have clear data where children are being abused and we just ignore it?
Kids get abused at home, at school, and at church. We don’t give a shit about any of that societally.
I was referencing the 2 kids that were recently drowned in the death traps they installed in Texas on the border with Mexico.
Commenting how the types of folks making these comments seem to not care about abuse when the kids are a little darker than they would prefer.
That’s totally fair. More then fair in fact. We’re talking, or at least I’m talking about children living in the United States.
If you want to look at the source of child abuse world wide, then you look at war, famine, child labor, actual slavery (more slaves living now than ever before in history).
Again, drag queens don’t make that list, nor do LGBT people in general. The people abusing the most children are their parents.
But in the US again, most people don’t give a shit that children aren’t just getting killed at that barrier, they die in the dessert by the dozens, maybe the hundreds, every fucking day. All they get is lip service.
This isn’t about kids, it’s about hating gay and trans people. If it was about kids you’d be banning beauty pageants and child marriage, funny how you aren’t doing any of that. It’s all performative bullshit so you can have an excuse to attack trans people.
Not only that, but dude makes his claim riding on the back of the Republican party bringing back child labor and fighting to expand the disgusting practice of child marriage so Republicans can legally own and fuck children. Couple that with doing away with no fault divorce so your “property” is trapped.
Real big brain right here. Clearly thinking of the children.
As in South Pacific (my favorite musical) for example. (I’m not gay, i just like musicals … and i’m not in drag right now neither …)
Not to mention actual soldiers participating too!
Seems like pretty average takes to me. Yeah, the polar ice sheets thing is climate change denier garbage but nothing you won’t hear when talking to certain people.
So the aim is to make lemmy.world a left wing braindead echochamber? Thanks, I will make a new account on that instance for the sake of freedom
This instance isn’t an airport, sir. You don’t need to announce your departure. Deuces ✌
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Bye!
Thanks for telling me what to do. I will do the opposite and stay here as well
No you won’t.
Please stay here!
Lol, dealing with you guys is like arguing with a toddler
Removed by mod
Generational conservatism moment
It has nothing to do with politics mate. And no, I’m not a conservative, certainly not a left winger. I’m not even an American
That’s insulting to toddlers…
If a “left wing braindead echochamber” is the opposite of that shit over there, then it sounds great.
I wonder if they realize how much of a self own it is for them to say that not tolerating racism or bigotry or Nazis or anti science bullshit makes something a “left wing braindead echo chamber”.
Probably not, but it’s fucking hilarious.
Sure thing. Leave lemmy.world and never come back. 🙏
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
Naa, your stupid ass just got blocked.
You won’t if the admins ban you for being associated with these bigots
Removed by mod
Oh I’m not threatening you sweetie, I’m just saying that if you continue it’s very likely the admins will ban you for being associated with these people, they may see you as a liability due to the fact that you’re also a participant over on exploding-heads
Can’t deny it, you said it yourself.
Also I’m not sharing anything that wasn’t already public knowledge, Federated DMs on Lemmy aren’t secure any instance admins can see them, meaning any one with a PC capable of running docker can view your federated DMs.
No the aim is to keep Bigots and Nazis out of Lemmy.world by cutting off the instance they’re using to propagate their toxic shit to the rest of the Fediverse. Honestly you sound just as toxic as them, maybe you should go hang out on their instance and not spread your toxicity here.
Removed by mod
How does a comment like this get so many downwotes, it really is an echochamber
Because blocking intolerant folks is a must in order to have a civilized conversation. It has nothing to do with creating echo chambers or being left/right wing.
I did not notice that conversations here were uncivilized because they were federated. Nobody would even notice if he didn’t go on an outrage.
That’s why I hide votes on my lemmy client. I don’t want them trying to psychologically manipulate me like on reddit
More like you don’t want to confront the reality of your shitty takes?
I’m all for hiding vote counts. I did it back in the bad old days too. Votes aren’t a punishment/reward.
Anyway fuck that other person. They’re obviously trying to make intolerance seem normal.
Removed by mod
Please leave. Thanks!
Thanks making a post about this!
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Not yet.
Real smart huh did you ever even consider the fate of all those hammers? what would moderators even use them on? /s geeze dense mofos can’t recognize a joke edited to add the sarcasterisk
If they stayed in their own communities and instances, it would be fine to just block them ad hoc.
But they don’t. They go to communities on other instances and make posts, and stir shit in comments.
It’s a coordinated thing, they’re actively seeking to fuck with everyone else. They aren’t even hiding it, you can go to exploding heads and see the shit.
Maybe there should be a personal option to block all users from a particular instance, so when you scroll past a comment from those users is just says “[user blocked by filter]”.
Luckily, the apps are providing that to some degree, and I think I saw an add-on for it in one of the lists. It isn’t as good as a lemmy based block per instance, but it gets the job done (so far)
If y’all wanna recreate reddit 2.0 then sure go ahead, censor every word that makes you slightly uncomfortable. Nazis were a huge fan of censorship IIRC
Choosing to not listen to you is not, repeat not censorship!
You do not have a fundamental right to my eyes and ears. Defederation is collectively ignoring you, not censoring you.
Ah…the same old brain dead argument. Right wingers always hide behind “muh free speech” and the like, but fail to mention how their policies actively attempt to strip the rights of others to be free.
In a space that respects free speech, you fundamentally cannot have a party that wishes to restrict free speech for others, as that defeats the point of free speech. Or rather, the concept of “absolute free speech” is utter nonsense on the face of it, as there will always be restrictions on what is and isn’t okay to talk about in any human group.
One could easily argue that putting these people into their own little cesshole communities is giving them free speech in their own shitty space. And of course, if you don’t like it you are free to leave for their space or simply shut up and play nice with the other kids in the instances you frequent - thats the beauty of the fediverse.
The free speech argument is especially hilarious for a lot of conservative spaces, including /r/Conservative.
With the majority of threads marked “Conservatives Only” and constant bitching that up votes and down votes were due to brigadding.
Oh and slyly removing comments they don’t like for whatever reason.
It’s projection all around, as is typical for conservatives.
Disingenuous right-wing troll fuck off and eat a bag of dicks.
deleted by creator
So it will be more work for them with no work besides defeating on this end? Okay.
Lemmy.world defederated EH a while back and now the same people from EH are posting wild on rammy.site, seems like a pretty cut and dry argument for defederation to me, if the admin were here and cleaning these posts and communities up that would be different but he’s not and they’re still here so best to treat is the same as EH because for all intents and purposes it is the same as EH.
As much as I would probably disagree with their messages and posts, would they not do the same to us if the positions were to be switched?
I personally take a stance closer to “all deserve a connected platform and if you don’t like it, block them” as even if I might disagree with them, they still deserve a platform.
No one “deserves” a platform. People should have the right to free speech, but equal volume has never been a guarantee. That’s up to your community.
Maybe you should join them with this shit take, you’d fit right in giving the mic to Nazis and terrorists.
Lol. See US Republicans. Nah, tolerance should not be a mistake we repeat. Let’s go back to the Indiana Jones style of tolerance towards Nazis
The paradox of tolerance disappears when you view tolerance as a social contract rather than a moral absolute.
Removed by mod
I do not support them nor what they do, but my belief is that every person deserves the freedom to speak their mind even if the message is hateful or I completely disagree with it.
I for one do not support hate messages directed towards anyone besides communists, yet I still believe they should still be able to speak their hate since that is true, uncensored free speech.
defederation is not censorship
even if the message is hateful
yet I still believe they should still be able to speak their hate since that is true, uncensored free speech.
Yeah, this is what makes your position in the matter untenable, dangerous, and shortsighted.
No voice of worth on the matter of free speech ever crossed this line because they understand no good comes from creating more harm in the world.
The beauty of the Fediverse is that no one is forcing you to choose/stay on your instance. If they want to talk about that stuff, they have their own instances for it. Lemmy.world is meant to be a comfortable instance for all, and if that means defederating, so be it.
Well, I’m late to the party, but it seems like rammy.site is failing to load for me.
If it’s as bad as it sounds from the quotes I read, then it should definitely be defederated from. Any instance peddling hate and/or propoganda needs to be defederated immediately. They need to be denied audiences.
Edit: Well following the rammy.site link thru lemmy.world does not load at all, but it loads just fine if I search rammy.site on a browser. Could that mean that lemmy.world admins have defederated already, and haven’t announced it yet? Here’s hoping.
World is still federated with rammy.https://lemmy.world/instancesNot anymore.
You’re right. Someone linked a screenshot of the federation list.
I still forget a lot of the features available on lemmy…
Removed by mod
This account is carcosa the admin from hexbear. Stop making alts to troll.
As if we needed more proof
Rammy.site does not load for me when I try to view it from lemmy.world, but it does load if I search rammy.site on a browser.
You may not be giving the lemmy.world admins enough time to respond to the situation. Guess we’ll see.
Removed by mod
I always forget about that list…
I support the defederation from hexbear when one of their purposes is to spread propoganda (including pro-russian propoganda on the Ukraine war despite the atrocities russia has committed…). That community vote brigaded on reddit, and there was some reason to believe they were doing it here with alts on the posts debating the issue.
With that said, it does not by any means justify inaction here with this hate-filled cesspool. If the lemmy.world mods don’t defederate then they should absolutely be called out for it.
They defederated hexbear preemptively. Why not this one ? This needs to happen.
They said it was because hexbear was pushing an ideology and therefore had nothing of value to add to the conversation
Well neither does this one. Good on the admins for taking action and defederating.
You actually don’t need to campaign to defederate every instance that offends you. Lemmy provides the ability to report posts and block posts, users, and instances. I get that there are a lot of shitheads, assholes, and idiots on the Internet… Defederating might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater in many cases. Hell, if you listened to everyone shouting about the assholes you shouldn’t support no one would be on Lemmy at all. Also, small I hobby instances are run by people with lives. Perhaps the admin will have time in the near future to clean up what’s been reported. Or maybe it really is abandoned. We just don’t know.
When someone starts campaigning to defederate an instance it immediately starts my senses tingling because I think I’m getting a version of the story… and it’s doubtful I’ll hear the other side. It offends the same part of as people complaining about downvotes did on Reddit. Take advice from a cartoon dog. “It’s not the done thing.” Or it shouldn’t be, at least.
Had this post just been letting people know what you observed about the instance I would be more moved to investigate and perhaps report posts and block the instance. I might still if I see hateful speech in All… but the implication that their hate will fester, breed, and spread if they aren’t immediately defederated is using the same tactics that right wing populists are… by dehumanizing people and playing on other people’s fear. It is just as wrong for you as it is for them to do it.
Amin!
They’re allowed to freely say whatever they want on their instance, but we don’t have to listen. Y’all view defederation like I’m fucking stabbing Caesar in the back again.
You’ve gotten downvoted, and you’ll probably get some more downvotes. But you you took the time to write a thoughtful post, and you made a good point.
But ultimately I feel your point is wrong. Defederating from such an instance isn’t the equivalent of dehumanizing people you disagree with. Rather, it’s limiting the (potential) scope of harm people with bad intentions can cause.
I get you’d like to see “both sides” or have a fuller picture, but there is enough evidence already that there really isn’t any possible “good” reason for their speech, and we should do what we can to limit its reach.
What evidence? Who is them?
Don’t JAQ off in public
People can block users and communities. We have the tools, so use them.
It’s always refreshing to read an intelligent and well thought out response. The world needs more nuance!
You mean “a response I agree with.”
And by “nuance” you mean “PEOPLE THAT USE THE N WORD REGULARLY!”
I mean I guess I do agree with the sentiment that defederating shouldn’t be the default response to finding offensive content on another instance.
If you check the highest scoring comment on this post you’ll see it’s also me, because I also find the content on that instance highly offensive. I’m just wary because Lemmy still feels very new, and the our behaviours now might set a precedent for the future, and I don’t want every disagreement to end up with another instance defederated.
And no I don’t use the N word regularly, I’m not even from the US
Karl Popper entered the chat.
Less well known [than other paradoxes] is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
Personally I’m more concerned about the Spiral of Silence.
The spiral of silence theory, proposed by German political scientist Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann in the 1970s, explains how public opinion is formed and how individuals may withhold expressing their views if they perceive them to be in the minority. This theory is often applied to political and social contexts, including the rise of ideologies like fascism.
In the context of fascism or any other controversial ideology, the spiral of silence suggests that when people believe their opinions are not widely supported, they tend to remain silent and refrain from expressing their views publicly. This silence, in turn, can create an illusion that the majority supports the prevailing ideology, even if it might not be the case. As a result, individuals who disagree with the ideology might feel isolated and discouraged from speaking out, contributing to the seeming growth and acceptance of the ideology.
I don’t think people tolerate intolerance so much as they’re scared to speak out.
This is and always has been semantic bullshit.
There is no fucking paradox of intolerance.
Because you do not “tolerate” the violence that intolerance leads to, you ALLOW it.
Shooting a fucking Nazi in the face isn’t intolerance. It’s basic preventative maintenance for democracy.
deleted by creator
Defederation is not censorship. It is refusing to listen to or platform things that you don’t agree with i.e. bigots or nazis. Lemmy.world has defederated exploding heads so it stands to reason that they wouldn’t want to listen to the same assholes spewing the same crap on rammy.site
Dude, defederation is a form of censorship, and there’s nothing wrong with censoring false and hateful views.
It literally isn’t censorship.
You can call it deplatforming if you need to call it something.
Dictionary says censorship is:
the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.
Is deplatforming not suppression? Are we not talking about something that we find unacceptable?
It’s censorship, and that’s ok, because it’s the only real tool we have to fight the spread of bigoted lies, because the truth doesn’t work on the stupid and disingenuous.
Except it’s literally not the suppression or prohibition of anything.
It’s not censorship if you don’t let people into your house. It’s not censorship if you don’t let people paint on your walls.
This isn’t the government. This isn’t the prevention or suppression or public speech. They can (and do) post that shit. You are free to go read it.
Almost no media platform is required to host or publish any content they don’t want to. What do you not understand about this?
It’s not censorship if you don’t let people into your house. It’s not censorship if you don’t let people paint on your walls.
I gave a dictionary definition of censorship and you’re trying to make analogies to trespassing and vandalism. Just use the definition.
This isn’t the government.
Censorship isn’t exclusive to governments. Private entities and public corporations can perform acts of internal censorship or even self censor in external communications.
This isn’t the prevention or suppression or public speech. They can (and do) post that shit. You are free to go read it.
There are countries that ban pornography, however someone outside the country is still free to see said pornography. Does the suppression of pornography in that country cease to be censorship simply because some people are still free to see it?
Almost no media platform is required to host or publish any content they don’t want to. What do you not understand about this?
Yep, and that’s why there are many corporations that self censor according to their own sensibilities. And that what this whole thread is about, the question of whether to censor rammy.site by suppressing their content via defederation.
There’s nothing confusing about this unless you have mixed feelings about the word censorship itself but still support the suppression of speech you don’t like(and to reiterate, i find the content on rammy.site bigoted and high objectionable, and want it censored)
Maan, you’re getting wrongly downvoted to hell, and I just wanted to stop, and give you some admiration, and thanks for being able to apply critical thought, and impartiality.
There’s so much cognitive dissonance in these threads.
You can continue to incorrectly call this censorship if you want, but you are going to continue to be wrong.
It’s obvious that you have difficulty with disambiguating the appropriate levels of abstraction for use with the words based on your examples. At this point, it’s either intentional rhetoric designed to try and confuse others or pride and ignorance. I am starting to lean towards bad actor.
It astounds me that people literally don’t get how federation works. The whole fucking point of federation is that we can defederate from instances that have garbage in them.
This isn’t censorship.
People are free to go be human garbage in their own instance, and I am glad that we can throw out the trash.
Well, I dont think lemmy.world should be linked with instances that have totally different rules. Maybe small difference in rules is fine, but this extreme stuff will make entire lemmy.world less appealing
Do it.
Enough with tolerating that bullshit.
Let them spew their hate, just make sure it’s contained.
Preferably where nobody can see or hear them.
I understand. But IMO this is a huge problem with federated server models: you’re making that choice for everyone on the server.
Now keep in mind I don’t know what they’re posting on rammy lemmy instance. If they’re doing some KKK shit over there I probably agree with you. But I’d say if it’s just right wing Trumpies I’d say it’s wrong to do that over political spectrum.
unless they’re breaking standard Internet boilerplate rules I don’t think it’s a good idea. Free speech is a good thing but it always comes with idiots. It’s a package deal. Let that reside at a user level. Remember there are extremists on the left just like there is the right.
Edit: One might consider too whether some of these are political propaganda accounts. This should be looked into especially now that AI is so widely available especially.
I’d say it’s not quite KKK level content but it’s not very far off, their leader said that he would ban anyone promoting violence but he also said it was because we would use it to vilify right-wingers which doesn’t make me think he’s against it, just trying to save face. It he weren’t he probably would be encouraging violence. So it’s right on the edge of being KKK level.
Also by the way the defederation has already happened, lemmy.world is no longer connected to rammy which is why I’m replying from a lemmy.ca account.
Removed by mod
