cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/1125686
Archived version: https://archive.ph/vL1mC
Archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20230806071111/https://www.businessinsider.com/employees-work-from-home-benefits-as-good-as-raise-2023-8
At least. If you work an 8 hour day, a 0.5 hour commute each way adds an extra 12.5% to work time commitment each day, and it’s considered unpaid time.
And your gas and car wear and tear
Yep, the IRS estimates that it is $0.655/mi in wear and tear on one’s car via the 2023 Mileage Rate.
That depends a LOT on the car.
A small suzuki would be a hell of a lot cheaper than a BMW 7 series… (not in the price tag, but… running costs)
Sure, but that is the rate that the IRS has come up with as an estimate/reimbursement amount.
A mile of city traffic is tremendously different than a mile of rural driving.
Also your spine, tailbone, piriformis, hamstrings, and psoas muscles. Cars are bad for your back.
Yeah, for me WFH is a lot more than 8% raise. It’s a lot cheaper. We were paying to work and didn’t even realized it
- You might need to buy additional food
- Wear and tear of work attire
- Might need to pay extra for someone to watch pet/child
Also there are additional costs of time
- Extra time shaving or similar (if you know you are staying home some things can be delayed a bit)
- Possibly extra time to prepare food
- Traffic/weather delays
- Extra effort for small things easily manage while at home e.g accepting deliveries, watching pets or opening for maintenance workers
That’s of the top of my head, so 1 hour lost per day is a low estimate.
I couldn’t believe how much more time it felt like I had in the day just cutting out the short work commute. You don’t really realize the extent of how much time you waste going into work until it’s gone. Even a short commute adds up quick when you include all the time to get ready in the morning and decompress at night. Plus all the extra maintenance on a daily driver and gas… Companies making people go into the office when it’s not even necessary are just power hungry morons. That’s all there is to it.
Yup. I have meetings at 8AM. If I had to do them in the office, I’ll have to be up at 6AM to get ready and leave to be able to get to the office in time. If I do it at home, I wake up at 7:50, which gives me almost 2 hours of extra sleep.
If I leave the office at 5PM, I’ll get home around 6PM. At home, I can log off as soon as the clock strikes 5, and now I have an extra hour of time to do whatever.
That adds up to around 3 hours a day that I save from not commuting to an office.
And for many, half an hour primping in order to be seen in public. I guess if you’re still in vid convos that somewhat still applies, but for others, now you can lay around in your underwear and stink and still get work done.
Working from home made me decide that I will never wear uncomfortable clothes again. I’ve seen the other side I will never go back
My wife was talking about this recently. She used to wake up at 5:30AM everyday, take a shower, blowdry her hair and style it, put on makeup, and prep her lunch by 7AM. Then she’d set out on her 1.5 hour commute to the office.
Once we started working from home, all of that extra time went to sleeping well and relaxing.
3 hours a day of unpaid time just to get ready for work… we were far overdue for a shift in the system.
If you have complicated health problems that can increase the amount of time done “primping” as well. I generally have to be awake three to four hours before I have to be anywhere and it’s a fucking nightmare.
The traveling time I’m saving by working from home, is directly reinvested into having a walk with the lady and the dogs, including sitting on a bench in the sunshine including a coffee, and if the mood is right, we’re staying for my first meeting at 10:00, …
Money can’t buy this, …
Sorry to hear about your troubles :-(
I went from commuting 1-3 hours a day to zero commute. It is unbelievable how much of a quality of life improvement it is.
I am grateful I worked in a couple offices before switching to fully remote for my next few jobs, because it showed me how much better remote working is for me.
It’s not just the commute even, my “morning routine” is maybe 10 minutes if I’m not going into the office, 30+ if I am. Need to make myself “presentable”, pack some food, make a to go coffee. When I’m able to just snack and make coffee during downtime waiting for replies etc at the office it’s so much easier, I get another hour of sleep if I need it…
People don’t like offices and are more productive when they’re happy. Who knew?
I did. I always knew.
Bullshit. You only knew since I told you on Thursday.
Companies forcing people back to the office are a red flag for bad management, so I’m sure that’s another reason they’re seeing people leave.
My company realized that they can remove office space and use that money for more employees. What a fucking crazy concept.
I would rather make 50k WFH than 100k in an office.
For double the salary, I’d need to think long and hard about it tbh.
For me it would heavily depend on where the office is located relative to my apartment, and how long my commute would turn out to be. More than 15-20 minutes by bike is a no-go (I live in Europe).
Also assuming the requirement to be in the office isn’t a huge red flag for bad management in the first place.
Well obviously the commute should be within a reasonable distance, I wouldn’t spend 5 hours a day in a car or train for it. But let’s say the total time spend back and forth is about 1,5 - 2 hours total. I feel that’s worth the time spend for a hypothetical double salary.
Obligatory presence in the office is indeed a red flag if it doesn’t actually provide a benefit to the role. To clarify, I’m 100% WFH in Denmark so I’m not advocating to push people into an office building but there’s definitely a point where nearly everyone would go into the office full-time, if salary and benefits are high enough.
50K isn’t worth 10+ hours extra hours per week going solely toward work.
Lol, my family can’t afford to live on $50k a year. So that’s a hard no for me.
Hahaha, yeah definitely a no for the family man. But as a single man 50k is fine, and the flexibility is worth more than a 100% raise.
You do you, there’s no way I’d take a $50k pay cut under any circumstance
I’m not surprised; WFH is a great benefit to workers. The big thing is going to be how companies choose to balance remote and in-person work and it is going to be wildly different across different industries.
Also informed by boomer consultants/board members advising millennial CEOs. No valid justification in most industries
8%? Who came up with that? It’s at least 20%
Shhhhhhhh
Keep in mind this does not just apply to ‘top talent’.
Anyone who is confident they can find something elsewhere and have a good enough resume to land a hybrid/WFH job will do so, if pushed.
I prefer to think of myself as top talent though
My parent company issued an RTO for everyone stating the typical corporate talking points (we did great during COVID but now we need to all come back within a month because we all work better together, blah, blah, blah). A half hour later an HR rep had to clarify it was meant to apply only for the parent company. I imagine the parent company is doing poorly and is trying to shake off some workers to cut down on its payroll. The only reason I can think of why they can’t force my smaller company is because we’re actually making them a lot of money so far.
If my work tried to end WFH I’d leave instantly.
2 hours drive a day is not only a waste of my time but my money on fuel.
Honestly. It’s about more than money.
If your boss says you must return to the office, after 3 years of WFH. At best, it shows that they do not value or respect you, and are just making an arbitrary decision in a bid to sell more stocks.
At worst, there might be some insidious reason to make employees physically available. Maybe they are getting a kickback somehow, or selling data that they can only get when you are there, or maybe they are just horny and want to seduce you sexually.
A remote worker is often happier, more productive, and cost less to employ even if they are paid the same as an on-site worker. Offices do not have to provide parking, seating, HVAC, power, wifi, and will even have less physical security vectors.
If some people prefer to go into an office, then it should be optional. Not a hybrid model where they force you to come a certain number of days a week.
At the end of the day unless you are on some kind of probation or evaluation period WFH should be the default when ever possible.
Control is another thing. I can’t tell you the amount of execs I’ve heard say “they’re losing control of their company” or “I don’t feel I have the same control over my people”. It’s crazy that they think that. What do they think the past 3 years have been when they’ve gotten record profits “oh, but our profits would be even better if we had people back in the office”. Sadly no amount of data will override the entrepreneurial “it could always be more” what if that they throw out.
The executives are nervous everyone will realize how overpaid and absolutely fucking useless they are. Every good workplace I’ve ever had, was absolutely nothing to do with the VPs/C levels. The best work places those people are barely involved in most of the day to day.
Any executive who has “lost control” of their business by allowing their employees to work from home is no more than the ring master of a runaway circus that they never actually controlled to begin with.
I’ve had the unfortunate displeasure of working for at least one company that made a full time job of keeping their employees under their thumb and I can say this much: the more you micromanage your workforce, the better your workforce becomes at professional time wasting. By that I mean finding creative ways to look very busy while achieving nothing of benefit to the organization.
But then again, much of the corporate world runs on incompetence so poor business decisions based on some executives feelings, rather than statistics, aren’t exactly rare.
I’m working in IT and as my last team lead hasn’t had any technical knowledge in my area, and he didn’t had to for his job, he wouldn’t even be able to control what I’m doing, …
Yeah, but there will also come a tone when the technical lead is being managed by someone with less technical experience than them.
At that point, it is less about telling them what to do and more about making sure they stay productive on tasks and projects that are important to the company.
The last part is important because a lot of the work management does at that level is supposed to be catching all the shit from other departments and setting goals, which does not look like technical work.
He couldn’t control whether you’re doing your work properly, but he can control that you "pretend* to be controlled by him.
It’s never about making you a better worker, it’s just about the illusion of control.
Think about it, when was the last time you had an interaction with your superior that actually had anything to do with your actual job? It’s all just a huge charade.
Control sounds insidious, but there are a lot of ways in which being physically present plays into your psychology and manipulates you into working harder/later/ect. Thinking back to the last time I was in an office, usually when someone was fired/they announced layoffs, the anxiety in the space was palpable. You ended up working later voluntarily just because you were afraid of not being seen at your desk and they’d fire you next.
WFH allows me to be more rational with my employer. They can’t scare me into working harder, and I’m not at all attached to the “office culture” if it suits me better to leave. I think a lot of the “soft power” of the employer-employee relationship comes from physical proximity, which is why you have middle managers not involved with the bottom line profitability rooting for BTO.
I agree with almost everything hog say, and strongly think WFH is the future and worth the costs.
But I think physical security concerns are a fair one for some companies to hold for WFH, if they handle sensitive data where leaking is a concern.
I’m on my second probationary period entirely WFH, you shouldn’t be required to work in the office unless the job physically requires it. Return to office is very often a big power grab by shitty management that don’t know how to measure outcomes properly and instead prefer to micromanage. It is one of the biggest red flags.
Can confirm. I quit my last job because they told us to come back to the office. In 2020, when COVID was still in full swing. And being remote was our company’s entire business model.
People don’t quit jobs, they quit managers.
8% seems extremely low. You could double my pay and I don’t think I’d stop working from home
You could triple my pay and I’d still probably say no.
It might be the average. Some pepole like working from office beacuse they feel lonely at home or they want to separate their work space from their home space.
Or don’t have the space at home, especially if it’s two or more people at a time
I’m lucky because I have room in the house for desks for me and my wife that are in different rooms, and not in our bedroom
That’s a luxury many people don’t have
That’s what I’m saying. Unless they talk about hybrid then yeah it’s equivalent to 8%, but if we’re talking full remote try more like 800% raise to get me back into an office. lol
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I could trade my WFH for a room with a view and a door. :) fuck openspace and flexdesks!
Honestly I wouldn’t. I can’t think of anything that would make me work in an office again. I can’t do it.
Honestly yeah, having my own door really helps me survive my new job even though it can’t be WFH.
Yes, people didn’t get my comment. We don’t have all the choice and luxury to work for a great company or good project. In old Europe, a 1 WFH was an ultimate privilege before COVID. Nowadays, It should be choice, I don’t mind coming 2 days a week but it to be a “mandatory minimal” 2 days is a bit ridiculous. Still, If I have my own or max 4 seats offices, I’ll be okay with it.
My office had a window and a door. Wouldn’t trade WFH to have them back.
An 8% raise to bring people back to office sounds like a reasonable cost tbh
That’s an extra 500/mo for me.
Factoring in needing to (re)buy office clothes/makeup/hair products, the extra time to get ready every day, commute with the time and money costs, as well as increased food costs?
Hard pass. That “extra” money is only going to pay for those extra costs.
Let’s look from a time perspective. Being conservative in estimating a typical commute (for my area) and getting ready time, that’s an extra 1.5 hours to my day. 500 a month over that extra 30 hours a week is 16/hr. Not terrible, but not worth it to me. I’m not going to trade 3 hours of my off work time for $48.
Now, if you’re willing to trade that time for that cost, I’ll def find 3 hours of chores around my place to hire you for!
it wouldn’t cover the opportunity cost of 3-4 hours a day for me, and while commuting direct costs are about 4% of my wage, that means a 4% incentive to lose 15-20 hours a week. absolutely not enough for me and to be honest I would consider it a disrespectful insult if my employer tried to justify that
Real question, why did you take a job that required a 3-4 hour commute?
because all the work is in the city for my career. and thats 3-4 hours return, not each way. many people do that here
Damn, that sucks. I guess there’s no option to live closer within budget or a competent train service?
not really. cost of housing is huge here. plus i like where i live and the kids all have schools established etc. its only a day or 2 a week i need to commute so its managable at least, but pre covid it was getting unbearable
What are a set of tools I can recommend to my employer, which increase productivity of office workers, and which provide greater value than a hybrid office policy?
A shorter than 40 hour work week would be the biggest draw.
According to a study conducted by Zippia.com (1,000 full-time workers), the average worker is only productive for a little over 4 hours per day, with productivity capping out at 6 hours. This article on studyfinds.org references another 2,000 employee study done by OnePoll (no link given) that says “A new survey finds office workers are at their most productive by 10:22 a.m. each morning — but start to slump by 1:27 p.m.”
Letting employees who commute to the office every day work 30 hours per week instead of 40 would be a HUGE draw for a lot of people. Less traffic on the commute, less “fluff” time where you’re not doing anything, time to take care of personal errands during the week while businesses are still open, and I’m sure other benefits.
I’d say probably a four day work week. I mean 4x8, not 4x10.
I’ve suggested to my work that if they really want people back in the office full time, they should offer those that return a 4-day work week as a meaningful incentive to compensate for the lost time and money to commuting. Still waiting for them to implement that one…
I’ve been thinking about this, I’d sooner take a 20% paycut and keep working from home for a different company, than deal with traffic and smelling other people’s lunches. Fuck all that.
I can’t go back to working in an office full time anymore. It would be a really difficult adjustment especially losing the time to commuting and needing to deal with child care. Plus we found that we no longer needed a second car anymore since we were both at home so we sold one. Our life is built around not having to commute anymore.
The push has nothing to do with anything but getting money back into real estate. The majority of wealthy people’s money is tied up in either oil or real estate. Billion dollar office buildings going unused is unexplainable to the oligarchy. And I don’t use the word Oligarchy lightly. Combined with less oil being used moving people around, and you have the most powerful people in the western world yelling at business executives to get their workers back in the office or they’ll be unable to barrow money from the 0.0001% small companies don’t have a lot of debt from the Oligarchy so they don’t have to listen to them. But if you know anything, wealthy people don’t like it when the poors don’t filter their money upwards so this fight is long from over.
It’s pressure from real estate and also managers who do nothing but hover and stare. So multiple sides.
The only people I feel bad for are restaurant/coffee shop workers who definitely aren’t getting nearly as much money
Don’t forget micromanaging bosses who can’t stand not being able to watch their employees at all times.
If Zoom is trying to get people back into offices, it may not be a real estate issue.
After all, are you going to argue that companies that are more than happy to outsource and offshore work overseas and sell off industrial assets are suddenly going to care about keeping their 4-year leases?
After all, are you going to argue that companies that are more than happy to outsource and offshore work overseas and sell off industrial assets are suddenly going to care about keeping their 4-year leases?
Yes
Zoom is beholden to the same investors trying to force everyone back to the office. They are likely required to use office space owned by one of their investors… That or poor leadership that hasn’t adapted to the new environment
Unless I’m invested in commercial real estate, why would I, as an investor, want to pay for commercial real estate?
What makes commercial real estate so precious compared to other capital investments?
It’s not like the land wouldn’t be viable for high end housing if the corps could push for rezoning. It doesn’t have to stay only office space.
Conversion would cost billions for most of those buildings. And many of those areas can’t support a population increase on the level of hundreds of thousands of people. It’s do able but these people are not willing to do anything that improves humanity.
I’m right there with you. It’s just incompatible with how I want to live my life and the cost savings and time savings are unbelievable.
