I think the gulf you are seeing between your position and people saying they will vote third party is because you seem to believe that Biden has been pushing back on Israel, and many of us do not beleive he’s been doing anything but putting on a show for the rubes.
You are framing it as a lot of genocide vs a little genocide, and thats position doesnt sound right given the actions we have seen in the past few days. American forces are about to directly enter the fight with Israel, and Biden seems to be setting up a mobilization the entirety of the US military when one of our THAAD operators inevitably gets killed. and congress has been bought off so no one is checking what the president is doing.
Yes, Trump is a monster. But on this issue we dont know that Biden is any better-- and it sure does seem there has been a lot of lying going on.
I don’t think it’s reasonable at all to say that Trump would somehow be less bad on Palestine than Harris., so I think we can say Trump will be at least as bad on that issue. For the sake of argument, I’ll be willing to accept an “equally bad” framing on that one particular issue.
But Harris isn’t going to enable the genocide of LGBTQ+ Americans, the genocide of Ukrainians, the subjugation and killing (through medical neglect) of a huge number of women, etc. etc. etc.
So even the strongest argument for “Harris is just as bad” that I can view as anywhere even remotely reasonable falls massively short. Trump is going to enable far more genocide than Harris, and I cannot see any reasonable argument that views it even as a trade-off of what bad things are going to happen, because as far as I can tell literally everything that’s bad about Harris (and there is plenty), if Trump winds up back in office it’ll be as bad or even worse. And there simply isn’t a third option.
Sounds reasonable. I think when people discuss this theres a lot of talking past each other. I think progressives see an opportunity to play chicken with supporting Harris until she gives us something for it. Some progressives will go all the way and not vote for any candidate, and some will cave at the last minute because of the dynamic you described. But just giving up now and voting for her while she is doing something we hate is a waste of a good crisis. I’d also like to see the DNC coem up short looking for votes from the middle, which seems inevitable to me. Good civil chat, thanks.
So then where the fuck do you get off advocating for letting the guy who’s already handed Israel East Jerusalem, West Bank, and The Golan Heights back into office to recognize Gaza as Rightful Israel Clay?
You are claiming the moral high ground over us lowly votescolds while taking the course of action that would actually be what furthers genocide.
So then where the fuck do you get off advocating for letting the guy who’s already handed Israel East Jerusalem, West Bank, and The Golan Heights back into office to recognize Gaza as Rightful Israel Clay?
And did less damage through that then what is currently happening right now. Not defending Trump here, but you seem incapable of recognizing that the worst crime that can be committed is happening now. Under Biden.
Again, Genocide is binary. It is happening now. You can try and ignore that, if it will make you feel better somehow, but you know exactly what you would have been doing in the Weimar Republic, or how you would have felt about John Brown before the civil war.
There is absolutely no self-consistent moral framework that will support your current arguments. If your moral system is just “That feels wrong, that feels right” with no actual value system, then I’m sure that that is fine with you.
Am I the only one who just realized that these people who are so tired are usually just kids who’ve voted in at most two elections and didn’t even participate in the primaries or local elections?
If y’all put half the energy into being consistent voters that ya did in bitching about “having to” once in a blue moon when you’re dragged by the hair to the polls first.
I like how your big slam dunk is to admit that you’ve been on this bullshit for over 20 years now and haven’t learned a damn thing if you think “stand aside and let Gaza be annexed outright” is a defensible position.
Letting Trump Win is an action which furthers genocide and me pointing that out is not boomer shit, you’re over a decade older than me and yet you’re carrying yourself with the mental maturity of the inverse.
I like how your big slam dunk is to admit that you’ve been on this bullshit for over 20 years now and haven’t learned a damn thing if you think “stand aside and let Gaza be annexed outright” is a defensible position.
No, I’ve learned that when I give the Democratic party control of all three houses, they break their own promises and refuse to use the power they’ve been given in any meaningful way.
I remember the murdered peace movement when Obama got into office and got the American Foreign Wars Count up from 2 to 16.
I remember the dead promise to legislate a law protecting abortion when the Democratic party had all three branches of the government and absolutely could have passed legislation.
I remember holding my nose and voting for Clinton as she then continued to run the worst campaign I’ve ever seen and then, as fucking always, blame it on the left.
My gotcha is I’ve lived a life of watching the Democratic party attack its base for the worst causes and try to shame anyone with a memory longer than a goldfish into voting for them again.
Letting Trump Win is an action which furthers genocide and me pointing that out is not boomer shit, you’re over a decade older than me and yet you’re carrying yourself with the mental maturity of the inverse.
Genocide is Binary. Harris has made it clear (in so much as she has made any policy view that she holds clear) that she will follow Bidens current policy.
Biden is currently committing genocide. And yes, giving weapons to the person doing it is the same as doing it. Especially if you could stop it with a single phone call.
While I agree this is definitely a big issue, most of my friends are various leftists. There is a clear line where the white, straight, cis, financially secure, and healthy ones are, or were, definitely of this mind. Though, in my case, few of them are still this way, after years of discourse with everyone else, who don’t have the privilege of not having to vote DNC, lest our lives become quantifiably more dangerous.
Is it though? Your sampling is limited to friends who you say are no longer “this way”. If your sample is sufficient evidence that it was a problem, then it’s sufficient evidence that it’s no longer a problem.
In reality, polls have shown progressives to be the most reliable voters in the country. Beyond that, they are the most involved in volunteering their time for Democratic campaigns.
There is nothing wrong with getting the message out that voting for Democrats is critical to everything the left might hope to achieve. However, framing the debate in a way that blames the left for the failings of liberal centrists is far more likely to push some people in the wrong direction. It’s not just unfair and unproductive, it’s anti-productive.
There is a reason that when the Democratic establishment doesn’t push this message that right wing trolls like OP do it for them.
Bots spreading information? yes, it is a big issue.
The point I was making is that the people I have seen that push this “punish them with no vote” philosophy tend to be people who are in a position where their life will not change significantly if the conservatives get their way.
And you figure that memes like this might change their minds? Assuming this is actually the biggest problem facing Democrats in this election, shaming voters is not the right strategy.
Memes do change peoples’ mind. I have watched it happen, numerous times. Can they change anyone’s? No, but I have literally watched meme shitposting, and socializing via image forums, and video games, just talking shit, and exchanging memes, change people’s political alignments, and other aspects of their personalities. Misinformation, spread online, with bots involved, is why FEMA workers are scared for their lives ATM.
I never said this was the biggest problem facing Democrats, nor did I say shaming works to change their minds. You made this up. I commented to someone doubting that people are actually like this, figuring it was just bots, with my anecdote, about people I personally know, who were, or still are, like that. There is no more to it. Your imagined narrative where I said this was the biggest concern for Democrats, or that shaming will change those people’s minds, never happened.
I don’t like the choices I have either. But I’m not deluding myself into thinking I have a secret magic option that people just don’t realise is out there.
I played defense, I never changed the subject, and never changed the fundamentals of the argument. You made the baseless claim that Trump would be far worse for the Palestinian people, while Biden has given Israel everything and then some, without backing it up. You can’t actually answer my point so you slander me as alt-right despite advocating for Marxism.
Ooh we can add the death of a euphemism and putting words into the mouths of others (a subset of controlling the conversation) to that!
Advocating for actions that will help fascists take power isn’t advocating for Marxism. It’s advocating for fascism, regardless of how much faux-Marxist language one puts around it.
Putting words into my mouth doesn’t make them true, no matter how many times you do so.
Revolution or not isn’t even a question here. There’s concept of a revolution contained within the American ballot box in 2024 is simply unfeasible. The actions you’re advocating help the fascists. So far you have provided absolutely nothing even remotely resembling a coherent response to that. You have, however, continued to use the exact same talking points that right-wing bad-faith actors use on leftists and left-sympathetic liberals to manipulate them into doing things that are against the interests of leftism. Please stop doing that and instead focus on having a discussion in good faith.
Someone who calls themselves a socialist but advocates actions that help fascism isn’t a socialist. They might believe in the ideals of socialism, but in practice those actions are fascist. When they use the alt-right playbook to make those same talking points, I will call that out.
Uh-huh. I don’t think you’re aware of how far left Innuendo Studios is. Ian “Pinko” Danskin doesn’t seem to be working to convince his audience to vote for Harris. You might even say he‘s discouraging it. I don’t know where he lives or how he plans to vote, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he votes for the pinko candidate, Claudia de la Cruz, especially if he doesn’t live in a swing state where his vote might actually have any effect on the outcome.
Fortunately, we can have nuance in our views. I can think Ian has done good work in some cases whilst disagreeing with his opinion in others. But regardless, he’s not using right-wing talking points, unlike a collection of about 5 accounts around here that are repeatedly posting stuff on Lemmy trying to discourage people from voting.
Organize. Build a coalition. Those are great things to do to oppose the regime.
Voting third party or not voting aren’t opposing the regime. They’re telling the regime “I don’t care whether you’re a little bit evil or very evil.” Harm reduction comes by voting for the lesser evil in the ballot box. Opposing the regime comes in actually building a coalition for less evil, not advocating for actions that’ll make the more evil option more likely.
Someone who’d go as far as calling them the “American Peasant” probably doesn’t know enough about their interests to be talking at them about what their interests as a class are.
We know what we are: wage slaves. Other than being technically ahistorical, “peasant” is close enough to what we are: the oppressed class. I don’t see a problem.
Someone who’d go as far as calling them the “American Peasant” probably doesn’t know enough about their interests to be talking at them about what their interests as a class are.
Calling out the inherent privilege carried by those who’d feel comfortable letting the republicans win to “teach the establishment a lesson” is not, in fact, a privileged response.
And voting third party is saying “I don’t care whether we get a bit of genocide or a lot of genocide,” which itself is legitimizing genocide.
I think the gulf you are seeing between your position and people saying they will vote third party is because you seem to believe that Biden has been pushing back on Israel, and many of us do not beleive he’s been doing anything but putting on a show for the rubes.
You are framing it as a lot of genocide vs a little genocide, and thats position doesnt sound right given the actions we have seen in the past few days. American forces are about to directly enter the fight with Israel, and Biden seems to be setting up a mobilization the entirety of the US military when one of our THAAD operators inevitably gets killed. and congress has been bought off so no one is checking what the president is doing.
Yes, Trump is a monster. But on this issue we dont know that Biden is any better-- and it sure does seem there has been a lot of lying going on.
I don’t think it’s reasonable at all to say that Trump would somehow be less bad on Palestine than Harris., so I think we can say Trump will be at least as bad on that issue. For the sake of argument, I’ll be willing to accept an “equally bad” framing on that one particular issue.
But Harris isn’t going to enable the genocide of LGBTQ+ Americans, the genocide of Ukrainians, the subjugation and killing (through medical neglect) of a huge number of women, etc. etc. etc.
So even the strongest argument for “Harris is just as bad” that I can view as anywhere even remotely reasonable falls massively short. Trump is going to enable far more genocide than Harris, and I cannot see any reasonable argument that views it even as a trade-off of what bad things are going to happen, because as far as I can tell literally everything that’s bad about Harris (and there is plenty), if Trump winds up back in office it’ll be as bad or even worse. And there simply isn’t a third option.
Sounds reasonable. I think when people discuss this theres a lot of talking past each other. I think progressives see an opportunity to play chicken with supporting Harris until she gives us something for it. Some progressives will go all the way and not vote for any candidate, and some will cave at the last minute because of the dynamic you described. But just giving up now and voting for her while she is doing something we hate is a waste of a good crisis. I’d also like to see the DNC coem up short looking for votes from the middle, which seems inevitable to me. Good civil chat, thanks.
Genocide is binary.
Trying to make it analog is just trying to justify the unjustifiable.
I’m not trying to justify anything. I’m saying that more people dying is worse, so I’m choosing the path that has the least death.
Pretending more people dying is somehow not worse, however, is attempting to justify the unjustifiable.
“Harm reduction” is not in the vocabulary of these internet addicted “intellectuals”.
Genocide is binary.
Anything that furthers genocide is not capable of being harm reduction.
So then where the fuck do you get off advocating for letting the guy who’s already handed Israel East Jerusalem, West Bank, and The Golan Heights back into office to recognize Gaza as Rightful Israel Clay?
You are claiming the moral high ground over us lowly votescolds while taking the course of action that would actually be what furthers genocide.
And did less damage through that then what is currently happening right now. Not defending Trump here, but you seem incapable of recognizing that the worst crime that can be committed is happening now. Under Biden.
Again, Genocide is binary. It is happening now. You can try and ignore that, if it will make you feel better somehow, but you know exactly what you would have been doing in the Weimar Republic, or how you would have felt about John Brown before the civil war.
There is absolutely no self-consistent moral framework that will support your current arguments. If your moral system is just “That feels wrong, that feels right” with no actual value system, then I’m sure that that is fine with you.
Gotcha, better to not vote for a “genocider” so you can wash your hands of the unbridled rape and murder of Palestine when he is president in 2025.
Versus the unbridled rape and murder of Palestine now?
Nor are things like “strategic voting.” It’s really unfortunate
No people know what it means to pick the less disgusting turd out of the bowl. They’re just tired of eating shit for “strategic reasons”.
Am I the only one who just realized that these people who are so tired are usually just kids who’ve voted in at most two elections and didn’t even participate in the primaries or local elections?
If y’all put half the energy into being consistent voters that ya did in bitching about “having to” once in a blue moon when you’re dragged by the hair to the polls first.
I’m in my forties. I’m a millennial.
This is just some more ‘damn kids’ boomer bullshit.
I like how your big slam dunk is to admit that you’ve been on this bullshit for over 20 years now and haven’t learned a damn thing if you think “stand aside and let Gaza be annexed outright” is a defensible position.
Letting Trump Win is an action which furthers genocide and me pointing that out is not boomer shit, you’re over a decade older than me and yet you’re carrying yourself with the mental maturity of the inverse.
No, I’ve learned that when I give the Democratic party control of all three houses, they break their own promises and refuse to use the power they’ve been given in any meaningful way.
I remember the murdered peace movement when Obama got into office and got the American Foreign Wars Count up from 2 to 16.
I remember the dead promise to legislate a law protecting abortion when the Democratic party had all three branches of the government and absolutely could have passed legislation.
I remember holding my nose and voting for Clinton as she then continued to run the worst campaign I’ve ever seen and then, as fucking always, blame it on the left.
My gotcha is I’ve lived a life of watching the Democratic party attack its base for the worst causes and try to shame anyone with a memory longer than a goldfish into voting for them again.
Genocide is Binary. Harris has made it clear (in so much as she has made any policy view that she holds clear) that she will follow Bidens current policy.
Biden is currently committing genocide. And yes, giving weapons to the person doing it is the same as doing it. Especially if you could stop it with a single phone call.
Keep in mind that most of them (like OP) are right wing agitators trying to drive a wedge.
While I agree this is definitely a big issue, most of my friends are various leftists. There is a clear line where the white, straight, cis, financially secure, and healthy ones are, or were, definitely of this mind. Though, in my case, few of them are still this way, after years of discourse with everyone else, who don’t have the privilege of not having to vote DNC, lest our lives become quantifiably more dangerous.
Is it though? Your sampling is limited to friends who you say are no longer “this way”. If your sample is sufficient evidence that it was a problem, then it’s sufficient evidence that it’s no longer a problem.
In reality, polls have shown progressives to be the most reliable voters in the country. Beyond that, they are the most involved in volunteering their time for Democratic campaigns.
There is nothing wrong with getting the message out that voting for Democrats is critical to everything the left might hope to achieve. However, framing the debate in a way that blames the left for the failings of liberal centrists is far more likely to push some people in the wrong direction. It’s not just unfair and unproductive, it’s anti-productive.
There is a reason that when the Democratic establishment doesn’t push this message that right wing trolls like OP do it for them.
Bots spreading information? yes, it is a big issue.
The point I was making is that the people I have seen that push this “punish them with no vote” philosophy tend to be people who are in a position where their life will not change significantly if the conservatives get their way.
And you figure that memes like this might change their minds? Assuming this is actually the biggest problem facing Democrats in this election, shaming voters is not the right strategy.
Memes do change peoples’ mind. I have watched it happen, numerous times. Can they change anyone’s? No, but I have literally watched meme shitposting, and socializing via image forums, and video games, just talking shit, and exchanging memes, change people’s political alignments, and other aspects of their personalities. Misinformation, spread online, with bots involved, is why FEMA workers are scared for their lives ATM.
I never said this was the biggest problem facing Democrats, nor did I say shaming works to change their minds. You made this up. I commented to someone doubting that people are actually like this, figuring it was just bots, with my anecdote, about people I personally know, who were, or still are, like that. There is no more to it. Your imagined narrative where I said this was the biggest concern for Democrats, or that shaming will change those people’s minds, never happened.
This has “I don’t care about your principles, lick the boot bigot” energy.
Kinda gave the game away by admitting you get called bigot enough to be seen as a generic NPC complaint to you
I wouldn’t assume that when anti-Zionists are being called antisemites on the regular these days.
I don’t like the choices I have either. But I’m not deluding myself into thinking I have a secret magic option that people just don’t realise is out there.
Removed by mod
Try to make your point without spouting misinformation.
Removed by mod
In the above comment, we see the following items directly out of the alt-right playbook:
Why is @cowbee@lemmy.ml using the alt-right playbook for their online argumentation? I’ll leave that up to the reader.
I played defense, I never changed the subject, and never changed the fundamentals of the argument. You made the baseless claim that Trump would be far worse for the Palestinian people, while Biden has given Israel everything and then some, without backing it up. You can’t actually answer my point so you slander me as alt-right despite advocating for Marxism.
Ooh we can add the death of a euphemism and putting words into the mouths of others (a subset of controlling the conversation) to that!
Advocating for actions that will help fascists take power isn’t advocating for Marxism. It’s advocating for fascism, regardless of how much faux-Marxist language one puts around it.
You’ve advocated for voting for fascism, I have explained that revolution is necessary. Pretty simple!
Putting words into my mouth doesn’t make them true, no matter how many times you do so.
Revolution or not isn’t even a question here. There’s concept of a revolution contained within the American ballot box in 2024 is simply unfeasible. The actions you’re advocating help the fascists. So far you have provided absolutely nothing even remotely resembling a coherent response to that. You have, however, continued to use the exact same talking points that right-wing bad-faith actors use on leftists and left-sympathetic liberals to manipulate them into doing things that are against the interests of leftism. Please stop doing that and instead focus on having a discussion in good faith.
😂 You see, the socialists are the real fascists. Ian Danskin would be horrified to see this perversion of his work.
Someone who calls themselves a socialist but advocates actions that help fascism isn’t a socialist. They might believe in the ideals of socialism, but in practice those actions are fascist. When they use the alt-right playbook to make those same talking points, I will call that out.
Uh-huh. I don’t think you’re aware of how far left Innuendo Studios is. Ian “Pinko” Danskin doesn’t seem to be working to convince his audience to vote for Harris. You might even say he‘s discouraging it. I don’t know where he lives or how he plans to vote, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he votes for the pinko candidate, Claudia de la Cruz, especially if he doesn’t live in a swing state where his vote might actually have any effect on the outcome.
Fortunately, we can have nuance in our views. I can think Ian has done good work in some cases whilst disagreeing with his opinion in others. But regardless, he’s not using right-wing talking points, unlike a collection of about 5 accounts around here that are repeatedly posting stuff on Lemmy trying to discourage people from voting.
Genocide is happening either way. Only option for american peasant is to go into opposition to the two party regime.
Voting 3rd party in this election isn’t the grand protest against the 2 party system you think it is.
Organize. Build a coalition. Those are great things to do to oppose the regime.
Voting third party or not voting aren’t opposing the regime. They’re telling the regime “I don’t care whether you’re a little bit evil or very evil.” Harm reduction comes by voting for the lesser evil in the ballot box. Opposing the regime comes in actually building a coalition for less evil, not advocating for actions that’ll make the more evil option more likely.
Genocide and harm reduction do not belong in the same sentence.
Genocide is binary.
I’m not sure we’re ever going to agree if you don’t think that more people being murdered is worse.
Someone who’d go as far as calling them the “American Peasant” probably doesn’t know enough about their interests to be talking at them about what their interests as a class are.
We know what we are: wage slaves. Other than being technically ahistorical, “peasant” is close enough to what we are: the oppressed class. I don’t see a problem.
How do I just know you wrote this on a $3,000 rainbow-LED gaming rig you bought with your parent’s engineer wages?
You are no Sherlock 😂 I’ve been working as a software developer since the early ’90s and am more than old enough to join AARP.
What an amazingly privileged response.
Calling out the inherent privilege carried by those who’d feel comfortable letting the republicans win to “teach the establishment a lesson” is not, in fact, a privileged response.