for real. I have some childless friends. which I should say I am also childless, but I like kids and used to teach kids from ages 10-17. my friends have never worked with kids and never interact with them, but they remember school as being mean to them and not letting them achieve their maximum individual potential, so they think kids should just have all this unstructured magic playtime to explore their own genius.
I’m not saying we need to be shitty to them, but kids are crazy. they need to be constantly reminded not to cough in others’ faces, not to dig in their own assholes and then touch group food, not to act like goddam maniac when someone it’s someone else’s turn with a shared resource, and that it’s important to play in a group activity or accomplish a task with a partner and realize a shared vision.
kids can be absolutely fuckin bonkers’ ass little terrorist monsters with no impulse control, and people who think they are magic enlightened angels should be forced to work with them for like one day.
I’ve done improv and TTRPGs with large groups of 7-9 year olds. So many theater teachers love to talk about how “kids are just so creative” and “just go back to your childhood” and act all enlightened about how the system just pushes us into boxes.
Kids fucking suck at improv. Their creativity is ass in any group project. They cannot relate to others and lack empathy. “I’M A BIG YELLOW ELEPHANT AND I AM BREATHING FIRE OUT MY ASS” okiedokie Philip, but actually it’s Lisa’s turn and we’ve already made characters. Michael is actually being burnt alive right now, so maybe instead of making it burn more, you think of a way you can help your good friend? Love the input though.
Kids are put into boxes, but those boxes are titled things like “be nice” and “you are not the only person in the world”
and “if you play the ‘kick each other over the shins game’ then at least one of you will cry. Which is okay, but you gotta be prepared for it”
and “GODDAMMIT DO NOT CLIMB TREES WITH A BROKEN ELBOW!**"
and "hey when your nose is broken, maybe don’t play dodgeball?”
and “your friend didn’t punch you out of nowhere, he punched you because you kicked him and those things are related, but yes I agree getting punched isn’t nice, don’t you think getting kicked isn’t nice too?”
and “Hey remember yesterday when you came up to me, crying, because your friends wouldn’t let you play with them? Well now Sophia, your friend, is telling me you won’t let her play with all of you. Do you think Sophia feels like you felt yesterday? Oh I’m sure this game can accomodate one more person, since it’s the same game you were playing yesterday when it could suddenly accommodate you”
one of the more amusing/instructive bits i remember picking up is how kids don’t expect the adults to communicate with each other outside of what they see. like the benefit of cooperation and communication hasn’t sunk in yet, so its a magic superweapon that can be used against them. the staff had this post meal meeting where the kids would have supervised play in a big field and we took about 20-30 minutes to identify the days issues like little douchey cliques to separate or who was acting shitty earlier in the day or who was having a hard time and needs a little extra, because they all floated between our tracks however they wanted.
the troublemakers and bullies were always baffled that yes, everyone else knows what clever moves you were pulling before lunch. like the adults were some other species of humanoid with a hive mind.
Teachers have to work with the students they are given, and those students can come from some rough conditions. The fact that many parents already see teachers as “glorified babysitters” (what glory?) means many parents outright expect teachers to pick up parenting duties, including teaching basic manners and decency, on top of everything else.
Rofl this is probably caused by the hilarious reactions she gets when she does this, either the elation adults show because it’s funny af or the shock and surprise being entertaining. Discouraging it is very difficult and a lot of kids do it for the same reasons - incorrect reactions from those around them end up reinforcing the behaviour.
that’s like seven years at a minimum after they start being conditioned to BE selfish monsters, idk this seems like a more systemic issue than a biological ‘kids need to be kept in line regardless of social structure’ thing
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way? they had ten or more years of experience at that point. if people treat you as subhuman, not worthy of consultation, and inherently worthless and a drain of resources for ten years and you have no other experiences you’d be fucked up too (case in point: you/everyone here probably was fucked up until they experienced things other than being treated like that)
you’re probably right to be annoyed, actually. but that isn’t the kid’s fault that they’re doing stupid shit while they’re learning. it’s the fault of us underpaying and forcing teachers and child care workers to work too many hours simultaneously, because we don’t treat them as valuable as they are. child care workers should be paid like degree holding medical doctors at minimum
In this manner, the child is prevented from developing a genuine, authentic sense of self. As he grows older, this deadening of his soul desensitizes the child to the pain of others. Eventually, the maturing adult will seek to express his repressed anger on external targets, since he has never been allowed to experience and express it in ways that would not be destructive. By such means, the cycle of violence is continued into another generation (using “violence” in the broadest sense). One of the additional consequences is that the adult, who has never developed an authentic self, can easily transfer his idealization of his parents to a new authority figure.
I’ve worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way?
Honestly I think it’s the other view that’s reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They’re selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren’t inherent, just because they’re ugly… It’s pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They’re taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then… Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it’s just that kids at like 5 simply can’t really conceive of a “social contract” for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little “play” involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the “dominant” shape
It’s not super conclusive tbh but it’s cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor
kindergarteners should have their “individual initiative” suppressed, kids at that age are SOCIOPATHS
for real. I have some childless friends. which I should say I am also childless, but I like kids and used to teach kids from ages 10-17. my friends have never worked with kids and never interact with them, but they remember school as being mean to them and not letting them achieve their maximum individual potential, so they think kids should just have all this unstructured magic playtime to explore their own genius.
I’m not saying we need to be shitty to them, but kids are crazy. they need to be constantly reminded not to cough in others’ faces, not to dig in their own assholes and then touch group food, not to act like goddam maniac when someone it’s someone else’s turn with a shared resource, and that it’s important to play in a group activity or accomplish a task with a partner and realize a shared vision.
kids can be absolutely fuckin bonkers’ ass little terrorist monsters with no impulse control, and people who think they are magic enlightened angels should be forced to work with them for like one day.
I’ve done improv and TTRPGs with large groups of 7-9 year olds. So many theater teachers love to talk about how “kids are just so creative” and “just go back to your childhood” and act all enlightened about how the system just pushes us into boxes.
Kids fucking suck at improv. Their creativity is ass in any group project. They cannot relate to others and lack empathy. “I’M A BIG YELLOW ELEPHANT AND I AM BREATHING FIRE OUT MY ASS” okiedokie Philip, but actually it’s Lisa’s turn and we’ve already made characters. Michael is actually being burnt alive right now, so maybe instead of making it burn more, you think of a way you can help your good friend? Love the input though.
Kids are put into boxes, but those boxes are titled things like “be nice” and “you are not the only person in the world”
and “if you play the ‘kick each other over the shins game’ then at least one of you will cry. Which is okay, but you gotta be prepared for it”
and “GODDAMMIT DO NOT CLIMB TREES WITH A BROKEN ELBOW!**"
and "hey when your nose is broken, maybe don’t play dodgeball?”
and “your friend didn’t punch you out of nowhere, he punched you because you kicked him and those things are related, but yes I agree getting punched isn’t nice, don’t you think getting kicked isn’t nice too?”
and “Hey remember yesterday when you came up to me, crying, because your friends wouldn’t let you play with them? Well now Sophia, your friend, is telling me you won’t let her play with all of you. Do you think Sophia feels like you felt yesterday? Oh I’m sure this game can accomodate one more person, since it’s the same game you were playing yesterday when it could suddenly accommodate you”
one of the more amusing/instructive bits i remember picking up is how kids don’t expect the adults to communicate with each other outside of what they see. like the benefit of cooperation and communication hasn’t sunk in yet, so its a magic superweapon that can be used against them. the staff had this post meal meeting where the kids would have supervised play in a big field and we took about 20-30 minutes to identify the days issues like little douchey cliques to separate or who was acting shitty earlier in the day or who was having a hard time and needs a little extra, because they all floated between our tracks however they wanted.
the troublemakers and bullies were always baffled that yes, everyone else knows what clever moves you were pulling before lunch. like the adults were some other species of humanoid with a hive mind.
Teachers have to work with the students they are given, and those students can come from some rough conditions. The fact that many parents already see teachers as “glorified babysitters” (what glory?) means many parents outright expect teachers to pick up parenting duties, including teaching basic manners and decency, on top of everything else.
I have a niece who keeps biting people
I am afraid of her
Rofl this is probably caused by the hilarious reactions she gets when she does this, either the elation adults show because it’s funny af or the shock and surprise being entertaining. Discouraging it is very difficult and a lot of kids do it for the same reasons - incorrect reactions from those around them end up reinforcing the behaviour.
The son of one of my long-time friends likes to run around hitting random adults, myself included, just to see their reactions.
You’ve touched on some unexamined thoughts that rattle around in my brain. I’d like to formally say “oh yeah, huh…”
that’s like seven years at a minimum after they start being conditioned to BE selfish monsters, idk this seems like a more systemic issue than a biological ‘kids need to be kept in line regardless of social structure’ thing
in fact i think it’s borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way? they had ten or more years of experience at that point. if people treat you as subhuman, not worthy of consultation, and inherently worthless and a drain of resources for ten years and you have no other experiences you’d be fucked up too (case in point: you/everyone here probably was fucked up until they experienced things other than being treated like that)
edit: read theory https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/toby-rollo-brian-davis-arthur-silber-no-against-adult-supremacy-vol-10
you’re probably right to be annoyed, actually. but that isn’t the kid’s fault that they’re doing stupid shit while they’re learning. it’s the fault of us underpaying and forcing teachers and child care workers to work too many hours simultaneously, because we don’t treat them as valuable as they are. child care workers should be paid like degree holding medical doctors at minimum
Whoops! We Made Ten Year Old Hitler!
I’ve worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They’ve just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don’t learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
Honestly I think it’s the other view that’s reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They’re selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren’t inherent, just because they’re ugly… It’s pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They’re taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then… Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it’s just that kids at like 5 simply can’t really conceive of a “social contract” for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little “play” involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the “dominant” shape
It’s not super conclusive tbh but it’s cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor