I highly doubt the left will do anything uncivil. How can they win back the country? Is it too late?
Democracy is just the tyranny of the majority.
I think that most of the Americans want this, even if people on the outside do not understand. So in that sense they are right now winning back their country, as confusing as it might sound.
No, there is a concerted effort by conservatives to use voter suppression to subvert the will of the majority in the US.
conservatives are clawing back the country right now by hook and by crook.
can’t go on forever, but I don’t know which is going to last longer: the country or the aging frightened conservatives willing to subvert democracy to hang on to control.
Isn’t just the aging ones sadly. Lots of young people, especially young men, went for Trump. Andrew Tate has taught them well.
progressive policies are annually more popular and conservative policies and election results like 2016 and 2024 are won mainly by the old guard funding and utilizing their careful network of voting interference and collusion.
Andrew Tate is a vile exception amongst younger generations, not the rule.
Trump wins the popular vote and lemmy is still in denial.
I don’t get it, what are you in denial about?
I think that most of the Americans want this
Maybe, but none of the facts directly support this.
There have been large campaigns to disenfranchise several types of voters for decades in the country. The Electoral College was designed to be unfair to appease Slave states. Voter turnout is abysmal, only about 35% of eligible citizens vote. Out of those turnout is usually around the same percentage. The highest turnout recently was 2020 only because mail in voting was expanded so dramatically, and even then it was only 67% of registered voters, so it was still only 67% of that original 37% of eligible voters. So with the highest recent turnout, we’re looking at about 25% of eligible citizens actually voting.
I believe that the 67% number for the 2020 election is of eligible voters and not registered voters. While turnout is low, it’s not 25% low.
It was ~67% of eligible voters that were registered to vote. Over 94% of registered voters actually voted.
Dafuk are you talking about? Voter turnout is 67% of all eligible voters. It’s highest since it’s ever been. And Trump won the popular vote. At least look at the facts instead of crying “stolen election”.
That’s what the Germans thought in 1933
Democracy really is the worst form of government, just not as bad as all the others…
Unfortunately in such polarized times like now, even though majority wants this, the ammount of people for which this is unacceptable is only slightly less than “the majority”. And besides, I believe a big part of “the majority” is just gullible enough to be persuaded they want this while it actually goes against their interests
Something can not be the worst and just not as bad as the others.
It’s a famous quote. The contradiction is intentional. It means democracy has a lot of problems and often looks terrible. However when you step back and consider the alternatives they are worse.
Take it up with Winston Churchil - I was just paraphrasing his quote.
The point is democracy is terrible, but we don’t have anything better.
And if the other candidate won, the other half would’ve been in the same state of “this is unacceptable”. Solutions?
Cuz lemmy seems to think if their party wins it’s all good and if the other wins it’s the end of the world. While in reality it seems there’s a 50-50 split with each side equally hating the other.
It is the limitation of democracy and why it is the worst (except all the others) - because it allows this.
How to fix this? These would be a good start: don’t polarize the society like this and create us vs. them mentality. In place of power hungry populists have people in charge who want the best for the country. Don’t enable fascists - they never should make it this far. Respect other people. Invest in education so people understand these basics.
And this is not just about US. It’s scary that this is wherr us got because they are such a big player on the world stage
The whole lemmy has been essentially about “us vs them” for the last few months. With zero discourse tolerated, only one opinion being allowed: trump bad, republicans fascist.
So, if you worry about polarization, you guys are the biggest echo chamber I’ve seen to date.
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vote against this and save us all from this idiocy.
Nope. There was just more people lined up to vote for more idiocy. We failed the world. I’d say I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’ll help. This is America.
America needs to focus on decentralizing power. That way, when the other side wins, they can’t do much damage. Biggest problem America faces is too much centralized control.
As an American, I expected most Americans to be at least semi-rational and to recognize what a threat to democracy and our way of life that Trump is. I expected most Republicans to just vote for him out of reflex, but otherwise the rest of America would rise up in our hour of need to vote against this and save us all from this idiocy.
Nope. There was just more people lined up to vote for more idiocy. We failed the world. I’d say I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’ll help. This is America.
Agree, and sadly he won the popular vote too (so far). It’s really bleak how many people don’t vote at all.
The frustrating thing is that Trump didn’t even get more votes this election than he did last election. There wasn’t a bunch of new Trump voters that came out of the woodwork and turned the tide. He was absolutely beatable. He only won because 15 million of the people who voted for Biden last election just didn’t bother this time.
A lot of progressive people also moved out of red states after all of the different nonsense happening in them. We won’t know until the 2030 census if they actually do that accurately unlike the 2020 census.
Democratic voters just aren’t dependable, or the causes that Democrats tend to champion don’t provide them any benefits. Yes, it’s often the right thing to do to champion their rights or causes, but when the time comes and their help is needed, they’re seemingly nowhere to be found because things apparently weren’t interesting enough.
It is too late for a while now. Try to be safe, even if that means moving.
And move where?!
Pretty dystopic that you post this quote, because it is doctored to include catholics. Niemöller’s wife explicitly stated that he never included them in his poem. Source: https://martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/martin-niemoeller/was-sagte-niemoeller-wirklich
Martin Niemöllers zweite Frau (seit 1971), Sibylle von Sell schreibt dazu am 23.4.2000 in h-holocaust https://www.h-net.org/~holoweb/ :.“ The trouble with Martin Niemoeller’s „famous quotation“ is that he never wrote it down – which enabled so many hitchhikers over the years to „put themselves on the waggon“. In his „Confession of Guilt“ (as he called it himself: Schuldbekenntnis in German) the Communists came first, then the Trade Unionists and then the Socialists and then the Jews. NO ONE ELSE.”
Just be grateful if you’re not in one of the first groups. I spoke up as loudly as I could.
If I had that answer I would be happy to share.
The problem is that nowhere is safe now. I’m Canadian, and I wish I had somewhere to go. And just imagine how the poor sods in Palestine, Ukraine, and so many other suffering countries, are feeling right now.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Vladimir Putin’s armies weren’t occupying large swaths of Eastern Europe by the end of this term.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Vladimir Putin’s armies weren’t occupying large swaths of Eastern Europe by the end of this term.
And Russia will use, what? Tanks from the Cold War?! There have been many reports from professional defense intel groups and countries that report that Russia has been struggling to keep fighting the invasion of Ukraine. They’ve had to resort to asking North Korea to send thousands of troops to fight in Ukraine. With the weapons that the EU, Australia, Britain, and the US have been sending them, Russia is going to have a tremendously difficult time fighting back. Let alone, invading another country.
There’s a theory going around that China might take action and ‘take back’ what they claim to have been their territory from the early 1800s. Either they capture Serbia as a whole, southern Serbia, or a large portion of Eastern Russia. Which might look like the northern point of Lake Baikal to Uda Gulf or the push further and take Taul Bay. The southern part of the Kamchatka peninsula would be advantageous to them. The US and others would have a harder time “controlling” China’s fleet of ships if they had ports and bases up there as well.
I can only hold onto fool’s faith for so long, that the world doesn’t experience another major war.
I think this is going to be the end of the USA as we know it. After this period, democracy will be significantly impacted.
The western world as a whole should be terrified. There has been a sharp dip towards conservatism that will only accelerate with Trump back at the helm in the US. Brexit didn’t occur in a vacuum.
Though this isn’t about conservatism, is it? Trump doesn’t like democracy and half of the things that shaped the USA. I mean there is some overlap but he should be opposed by any sane conservative. I think it’s more a dip towards fascism or something else.
Can be a bit of both. Everything is prompted by a desire to return to the “before” times. For Trump’s supporters, that is a hypothetical, undefined time when America was “great”. For the Brexiters in the UK, that was the pre-EU period when Britain was a global empire. For the conservatives in Russia, it is the yearning for the USSR days.
Fair enough. I always hope we’ll move towards a better future… And not backwards. But you’re right. You pick some random time in history and then make up some policies that supposedly get you back to that place. And an additional psychological factor is, most of us had our best time when we were young, life was easier, less work and less consequence. So we might want that back instead of our current, more complex life.
By finally doing what it clearly needs to do, splitting in multiple countries so red States can finally become third world countries like they so want to be.
It’s funny that the last time this was floated by Republicans, they thought they were kicking the Democrat states out.
In other words, they thought they were keeping the Federal government.
Republican states need Democrat states far more than vice versa.
If Trump truly does win, Republicans won’t split the country. They’ll make it even more impossible to leave.
I mean, no matter who gets kicked out by who, there would be at least two federal governments… I think most people don’t realize that when a country splits, the (at least two) new entities both become independent countries with their own government…
So where do you think the lines would get drawn? West Coast and New England + New York are the obvious ones to do their own thing. Pennsylvania cuts off the DMV area from New York/New England, unless we go on a county level and excise just the area around Philly to keep the whole northeast Atlantic together.
Is Chicago just left as an island in the Midwest? The red staters certainly won’t want it, and without it Illinois basically is a red state. RIP to the other midwest and southern cities too.
Colorado and New Mexico together would be quite fucked being landlocked in a sea of red otherwise.
Congratulations to Hawaii on its regained independence I guess. Alaska would probably be offered up to Putin as a thank you gift from Trump.
Do you think all the red states stay together as a single entity? Texas is an obvious candidate to decide to fuck off on its own, possibly Florida as well. But would South Carolina really care all that much to stay tied to Montana, for example, or vice versa?
America has past the point of no return on education. Anti-intellectualism is the status quo now. It’s only gonna get worse now.
They won’t need it… they got people to think what it’s best for them, what books are good or bad, what values you should have, how you should live. And then they will also have chatgpt and AI that will answer their doubts and even do their work cause they won’t be capable of doing it. I wonder if the AI will get “less smart” because of their clients needs being more basic. We’ll see
Fisher price ai
Waves Bible they’ve never read
What do you mean? Trump won decisively. Electoral, popular, in the senate, etc…
You’re really asking, “how does a minority continue to exist in the face of a fascist majority?”
The answer is, generally, they don’t.
I think that is an oversimplification. He won the popular vote, but that’s the majority of voters, not the majority of people, right? So we cannot accurately say that the majority is fascist. We can only say that the voting majority is fascist.
And then we need to look at who was conned, and how. Of course people who got conned need to work harder to avoid that in the future. We all agree on that. At the same time, the con artists and the people who enable the con, we also need to identify them and figure out what’s making them successful. If we talk about major newspapers and TV networks failing to cover how bad Trump actually was, or putting Harris on unrealistic pedestal, newspaper owners refusing to allow newspaper editors to endorse a candidate, the way Fox News preys on people who grew up trusting TV news and now have only watched Fox for the last two decades, open lies about who’s eating cats and dogs, a DNC that pushes centrist candidates even after 2016 when the weakness was exposed, and it’s clear that many left-wing voters are wildly unhappy, those are all things that smaller groups have done to help create the situation that we saw yesterday. And that’s just a short list.
So what I hope we can do, is I hope we can avoid saying something trite like, this is what the American people wanted, full stop. If you want to make that a conversation starter, go for it. But it shouldn’t be a dismissive conversation ender, because it ignores what actually happened and What will continue to happen in the future.
He won the popular vote, but that’s the majority of voters, not the majority of people, right?
Right, the rest are just so lazy and consumed by apathy that they could not be bothered to vote when THESE were the stakes. I think we can confidently rule them out for any advocacy for our freedom.
But statistically, those who didn’t vote likely have a similar ideology distribution.
You forget that he won decisively… with less votes than he got last time
Facism is capitalism in decay. America just proved that the decay is rapid.
Liberal institutions just paved the way for facism to take root.
I’d like to learn more about
Facism is capitalism in decay.
Is that just a think people say or are their studies or books about this?
Facism is a reaction to the institutional failures of capitalism brought about by many scholars. Mainly brought about by the working class left behind looking for a change to the system.
Places in history where it happened
italy (1920’s) voters wanted a stronger economy with trains to run on time germany (1920’s) voters wanted a stronger economy without a destabilization of currency
Is that just a think people say or are there studies or books about this?
But why male models?
Here is an explanation.
Honestly at this point y’all should just get the fuck out. Where to? Anywhere honestly. You’ll probably find the third world preferable to a post project 2025 Murica.
Russia’s been having a major brain drain issue as all people with functioning brains either have escaped or want to escape the country. I don’t see why Americans should do any different.
FWIW a candidate the left could vote for instead of someone to vote against would help.
It would.
But I think that ship has sailed.
And honestly it might be the third-worlder-accustomed-to-things-being-uttter-bullshit in me. But I think “Winning back the country” is an unrealistic and foolhardy goal. Everyone who is on the radar for being harmed by Trump should look out for themselves and their own. Which includes “getting the fuck out of the country” if that is what it takes.
Additionally: A significant portion of the country won today. They got exactly what they wanted. And pretending that this neofascism is some kind of external infection is tantamount to covering one’s own ears.
I’d recommend assassination, in Minecraft. If you’re leaving the server and everything is fucked then do one for the team and cause some heads to roll, in Minecraft. The right used violence and it led to the presidency. A coup was rewarded. Let’s take some notes.
I am going to commit several violent acts (in Stellaris)
pretending that this neofascism is some kind of external infection is tantamount to covering one’s own ears.
See, I think it’s mixed. You’re absolutely right that people voted for this. At the same time, years of propaganda by monied interests have led us up to this point. Authoritarianism has been low-key popular at least since the 90s (maybe earlier, but the 90s was when I started school, and learned by experience that fascism is how the school system operates.) People are scared to rock the boat against their “leaders,” and given enough time, this is the result.
I wish I had time right now to write more about this, because there is some deep psychological manipulation that’s embedded in the fabric of this country. It doesn’t excuse people’s behaviors, but knowing how and why they operate is crucial to understanding the big picture.
At the same time, years of propaganda by monied interests have led us up to this point
See you’re right but –
– Those monied interests are also coming from within. The wealthy and powerful from America who see this as a way to consolidate and protect their own wealth and power.
Silicon Valley wanted Neofascism. Wall Street wanted Neofascism. Fracking Barons like the Koch Brother(s) wanted Neofascism. Some out in the open, like the afore-mentioned Koch(s) and Elon Musk, but make no mistake, every billionaire who “shuts up about politics” is most likely a Neofascist in private, because this benefits them.
The people in America are heavily propagandised, but that propaganda is funded and developed by and for the benefit of the wealthy within America itself.
Some people lean really hard into the whole “russian influence” thing because it is comforting. And it is entirely possible that there ARE Russian fingers in this pie – Russia does benefit from a weakened America, in any way they CAN weaken it. Heck, China and the Middle Eastern powers do too, so maybe they have fingers in that pie too.
But never forget that it started with wealthy Americans, and not some foreign agent. And if every foreign influence walked away, it would continue without them.
Theoretically, The Revolution™ that lefties like me talk about could change things. Just like theoretically, a peaceful political reform could change things. Theoretically.
But I’m from the third world. Hopelessness is my
bread and butterrice and beans. So I’m entirely accustomed to daydreaming of one day things changing, while expecting elections to change nothing, and knowing for a fact that any attempt at armed fighting would most likely end in a victory for the bad guys (they have the bigger guns).The idea of “things are already fucked, have been since before you were born, if you want to make a difference, look out for yourself and those you CAN help, make a difference in the micro, because The System as a macro thing is outside your reach entirely” is in fact how most people have dealt with things since forever, and we survive.
It sounds like we’re on the same page. I didn’t mention foreign influence, only monied influence, which is the same thing you’re saying.
My point was that these influences previously existed in the U.S. long before now. They didn’t materialize out of the blue. Anyone who’s been explicitly anti-fascist prior to the past decade knows that there was already an undercurrent pulling people in that direction.
I appreciate hearing your perspective, and you’re absolutely on point. One thing I know for sure is that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.
Pretty sure Trump said we wouldn’t have to worry about voting anymore. It would all be taken care of.
Damn, and europe already has a lot of refugees to deal with :p
This has actually all been a very elaborate “come to Brazil” meme on my part.Jokes aside, given how a lot of our people tend to worship the floor 'Murica walks on, if a bunch of refugees from the US came over, they’d probably be welcomed with open arms. :PI suppose we shall see. They have a decent agreement with Germany to my knowledge. But only if you want to work on the black market or live on the streets
Come on up to Canada. We’ve been suffering brain drain for ages, and could sure use some scientists and doctors!
PP coming in next year to do the same here though…
Too true. :(
And the same morons will vote for PP here. Np brains, just slogans and anger.
We will take you in NZ.
No you won’t, NZ is one of the hardest countries to immigrate to.
I hear Japan is practically giving houses away…
Eat shit.
This post is about recovery, not abandonment. Letting America fall will have global repercussions. Instructing us to give up is not helpful.
This post is about recovery, not abandonment
Recovery from what? Fascism is what your own neighbours chose. This is the system working exactly as intended and pretending it’s not is covering one’s own eyes. There are hundreds of millions of Americans for whom this is a good day. They have the backing of the wealthy and powerful. And their project is to remove any chance of them ever losing power again.
Thinking you’ll stop something like Project 2025 in the ballot box is willful ignorance at this point.
Since OP has already made it clear that “violent uprising” is not on the cards, then the alternative is to get out while they can. Hopefully while helping others do the same. Save themselves and their own. Survive and maybe you can make a difference from the outside.
When Germany went all Nazi in the 30s~40s you know who DID make a difference? Not the political opposition who got slaughtered. And not the people who let the Nazis walk all over them while claiming they were still better because they were “civil”. It was resistance fighters who helped the allies fight and minorities to escape. And people who got out of Germany and then joined the fight on the side of the allies.
Also:
Eat shit.
Don’t threaten me with a good time, gringo <3
I gave up this morning. America gave up on you at birth.
Sending this dude a dm on NZ. I’m sure they need mechanics.
This isn’t sides anymore.
Until America wants to be tolerant of more than intolerance, it seems it will vote with its penises, wallets, and weapons.
Edit: unnecessary apostrophe
No, no, it’s fine. Americans don’t know how to use apostrophes properly.
The average death age of any empire is 250 years.
Tick tock America. You’re proving that figure to be correct.
*proved
Hope there will be a legitimate election in 2028, and show up to the fucking primary before it and in 2026.
I think Trump won because of the economy. Yes, he has a rabid base that really does want his fascism, but the voters who pushed him over the edge are ones suffering because inflation and the wealth gap that has just been allowed to increase unimpeded. Those voters don’t want fascism - they’re just dumb AF and don’t pay attention. They just voted for “change.”
These problems will only increase over the next 4 years, so there will be another opportunity defy the status quo in 2028. We had a chance and failed to do in 2016. We came closer in 2020. We didn’t have a real primary in 2024. When we get to 2028, it’s time to fucking do it.
Ah yes, because nothing says “change” like “unchecked conservatism”
Well I did say they are dumb AF.
Here’s the thing… He said he would bring change. Biden, and Harris after, both said that things would basically stay the same. For a lot of people, that’s an active issue they’re dealing with everyday.
The politicians just don’t understand because they haven’t lived like normal people for decades, if ever given the history and family of many of them.
I’m not sure that we do. Not in our lifetimes anyway.
With a functional justice department we’d have a chance. There’s nothing to stop them from tweaking the electoral lines. There’s nothing to stop them from not certifying an election. We’re about to have the scotus filled with young like-minded Republicans. We’re about to have every federal judge biased for them.
Even having both sides of Congress the best thing we could do would be to status quo because every time a veto is overturned the scotus could just stamp it down as unconstitutional.
The president has God King status, he can have opponents jail for executed.
The thing is even if none of these things were in play, The popular vote just voted for a dictatorship. He was utterly and absolutely clear and anyone that says he was joking around doesn’t actually believe that they’re just too embarrass socially to announce that they themselves are racist/fascist/misogynist. There is nothing here to win back. We’re better than 50% rotten to the core and those people aren’t going away.
Even this election wasn’t right versus left it’s right versus more right. If you put a true left candidate in they’re just going to get murdered. (That may or may not be literal)
I’m not sure that we do. Not in our lifetimes anyway.
I don’t understand this sentiment as I’m hearing it a lot.
We’ve elected a fascist into the highest office. We’re cooked. There’s a lot we can do right now, but the most important thing is organizing. Organizing your community, your family, your town/village/city. Organizing mutual aid, direct action, and resistance. How much more do we need until people actually get off their asses and start doing something about it? Like the time for peaceful and democratic means of avoiding fascism was before the election. But a fascist is now in power, so are we going to wait until the troops are rolling down the street to do anything? I’m not saying go out and just commit wanton acts of violence in the name of revolution, but the longer we wait the more difficult it will become to get organized, involved, and yes armed.
I don’t understand this sentiment
There’s a lot we can do right now, but the most important thing is organizing
Organizing? Resistance? Armed? That’s honestly insane.
You’re going to organize against half the US? Gonna start a civil war with every last (fully armed) enemy in your own backyard?
They could blockade cities from food and shut down any movement in 3 days.
The Civil War worked efficiently because there was a battlefront. This is more of a Republican Soup.
Good luck with your local police. They’ll get a federal warrant and gleefully raid your home at 3 am.
See, there’s the horrifying possibility that they just did and this is what Americans are.
Eh, forget it. they probably need a minute before reckoning with that one.
That’s the thing … looks like he’ll win the populist vote… You’re not “taking your country back” this is your country…
Not being American, I will need some convincing about why the US doesn’t belong in the same bucket as, say, Hungary or Turkey. If you keep self inflicting the rule of strongmen and their oligarch cronies at some point that’s a core feature.
Sadly, for the next four years, we belong in that bucket.
THIS is the moment where everyone should be creating 3rd party candidates and going to the streets to spread awareness for the next election.
Not 6 months before the election with trump as a possibility. Get out there and promote 3rd party now, when people are pissed at Democrats for throwing it all away for Israel and people are pissed the trump won.
IMO third party is not viable unless we change our voting system, but people keep voting out the progressive reform party so fat chance.
EDIT: 100% for independents in Congress tho, as long as it doesnt split the vote for progressives.
Do you really think they lost over their stance on Israel/Palestina? Not saying it doesn’t matter. But I feel if you see how many votes republicans got, that a lot of (perceived) domestic issues played a very big role.
20 million people did not stay home over Palestine. People aware of that issue are also acutely aware of the fact Trump would be worse.
Apparently a lot of apathy among dem voters, or they also think a strongman for a while would be OK.
“Next election” is the issue here.
Those playbooks are for democracy. This is different territory now.
The polls say the economy was the reason, not foreign policy.
Ruling parties are being flipped all over the world because inflation has been bad since Covid. It’s a pity your only other option was Trump.
Yep. Rough economic times seem to cause the incumbent pres to lose. People seem to think the president controls the economy.
It can get worse!
No, 3rd party will always be spoiler at best with the election system we have… Now is the time to figure out who runs the local Dems in your state/county/city/town and take them over… We need to take over the Dems and transition them to the party of the future
