“Men have penises, women have vaginas; here ends my biology lesson.”
Jackass
Could you explain to me how biologically this isn’t factual? The baby doesn’t pop out with a penis and the doctor go “congratulations! It’s a girl with a penis!”
Fucking delusional, you want to shift your hormones and swap sexy bits as an adult? More power to you. Wanna let undeveloped children cause irreversible damage to their body because they had a phase where they liked to cross dress? Get fucked, it’s absurd we let 18 year olds even apply to college or vote.
What’s absurd is how you’ve formed a strong negative opinion despite it being pretty obvious you’re completely clueless about the details of the topic.
Kids aren’t just given puberty blockers immediately at their request. A lot of work is done prior, with the parent(s) and medical and mental health providers determining the validity of the situation and working with the child to determine the course of treatment, if any.
It’s fine to disagree, but at least educate yourself first. Otherwise you’re just another bigot.
Let’s start with the basics. It’s not all XX and XY.
Anomoly noun
- Deviation or departure from THE NORMAL or COMMON order, form, or rule.
To restate the initial point being discussed, “Humans are sometimes neither male nor female.”
An anomaly differs from the common, as you state.
But in this discussion, we are talking about “the existence of something” and not “the normalcy of something”. Those are completely separate discussions.
No one is arguing that being born between genders is ‘normal’ or ‘common’, in fact, the abnormalcy of it is what allows those who carry prejudice and hate in their hearts to hurt and kill these people physically and legislatively.
In short, your comment presents no information relevant to the topic at hand.
Yes, well done. Exceptions occur naturally, everywhere.
1 in 1,700 people are born with both sexual organs.
If extrapolated to the population of the United States that is 10% of the population of Nebraska that cannot be defined in this manner.
Therefore, that statement is not biologically factual as thousands of people have both.
Since this is a UK forum, the UK has 40,000 citizens who cannot be defined male or female in this manner.
Onto your point about manipulating gender at a young age.
The largest number of gender reassignment surgeries are performed on the population I just described, without their consent, at birth. And believe it or not often doctors get it wrong.
Someone assigned female by a doctor as a baby, well turns out mentally they are a boy, a boy who had their penis removed at birth. That might have some affect on a person, I think you’d agree.
So with that in mind, I agree with you about one thing, that non-reversible gender decisions should not be made without the consent of the individual being assigned a gender, as doctors are currently doing to intersex babies on a regular basis.
So can we stop pretending that gender reassignement is the problem? It’s just a wedge issue designed and promoted to keep the lower classes divided so that we don’t realize what the rich are doing to us and this planet. I am not your enemy. We are allies. The enemy is up/down, not left/right.
Transgender people just want to exist. Is it an unreasonable demand to exist and be acknowledged? I think not.
I understand your sentiment and I dont want to come off as just “transbasher” because i have close both male and female friends who after college decided they wanted to transition. I don’t agree with their thought process but I don’t tell them or put them down for their choice because it’s their choice as an adult.
On the subject of intersex births, I find the 1 in 1700 to be very generous. Having a mother who has worked labor and delivery for the past 30 years in a large hospital, she has only ever had 2 instances where the baby was born intersex. And that’s out of tens of thousands of deliveries. In those fringe cases I think sure we can allow those to be allowed to transition because there is a biological reason evident from birth. But if you just have a hormone imbalance that doesn’t mean you need to block the natural course of growth to see “what you’d prefer”. Just let the body do it’s thing and when it’s done developing then mess around with it.
I understand your sentiment and I dont want to come off as just “transbasher” […]
- You seem to be genuinely open-minded, which is good of course. So as you have been well-spoken and generous of thought, I will attempt to be with you as well.
[…] because i have close both male and female friends who after college decided they wanted to transition.I don’t agree with their thought process but I don’t tell them or put them down for their choice because it’s their choice as an adult.
- The concept of agreeing or disagreeing with someone’s lifestyle is foreign to me, so I cannot comment on that. I do not view myself as a judge to voice an opinion on any person’s lifestyle.
If I live in a society where I can use my sole judgement to manipulate the lifestyle of others, then that means that other members of that society can judge and manipulate my lifestyle. I do not want that for myself, so I do not wish it on others.
On the subject of intersex births, I find the 1 in 1700 to be very generous. Having a mother who has worked labor and delivery for the past 30 years in a large hospital, she has only ever had 2 instances where the baby was born intersex. And that’s out of tens of thousands of deliveries.
- You must realize that you are taking two missteps of reason here.
The first is anecdotal thinking by placing personal experience above targeted and broad research, the world is a complex place and while I have no doubt that your mother presents this information in earnest, it remains an anecdote.
The second is hearsay, you are not only using anecdotal information, but second-hand anecdotal information.
In my view, one of these errors alone would be enough to disqualify the validity of your point, and together, well… I have no doubt that you are an intelligent person and I hope you can see my concern here, would it not bolster your views to step away from anecdote?
Regarding the data, I cannot comment on the data itself because I admit I am not an expert, I fetched the values from the best information from medical institutions I could find. If better data is presented, I will amend my comment now and moving forward.
In those fringe cases I think sure we can allow those to be allowed to transition because there is a biological reason evident from birth.
- I agree.
But if you just have a hormone imbalance that doesn’t mean you need to block the natural course of growth to see “what you’d prefer”. Just let the body do it’s thing and when it’s done developing then mess around with it.
- I disagree, I cannot imagine the pain that transgender folks experience because I am not gender dysphoric, but I do know what it feels like to have someone doubt my experience of mind. Having experienced [won’t go into detail for personal reasons] a variety of mental health issues in my life which have been discarded by others as false because… they were invisible… it is difficult to express the anger that this conjured within me at being told that my own experience was invalid because the observer had not personally experienced what I describe and therefore to them it was imaginary.
Whether you have experienced something like this specific example, or not, I believe that all humans have had the experience of being told that we are lying (when we are not) and we all know how bad that feels. What is real to a person is real to a person. Brains are not computers. We are not purely rational beings. I think that it is fair to allow a person to take any action which 1. increases their quality of life while 2. not harming others and in my view gender affirmation behaviors fall directly into this category.
- (or 5a.) Regarding delaying treatment until full decelopment. Many biological processes are not reversible, so allowing the body to “do what it will do” then address the results afterward introduces many complications.
Someone who doesn’t want to be a man might be pretty upset when biology makes them 6’8" (203cm) and 300lbs (136kg) then society says, “Okay you can try to be a girl now if you want.”
So I’m fine with this stance regarding reversible techniques (similar to how I feel about puberty blockers… kinda neat how my views are symmetric both ways, right? ;-) ) because there is no harm done. But forcing a delay to full development is something that I believe does cause harm.
Side note, often it can feel that taking no action is a safer action because of how our brains work. But as is often said, “Not making a decision, is a decision.” Taking no action can be equally harmful to taking an action. I believe that this thought applies to our current discussion.
Lucky for us, the arbitrarily set age of developement (roughly 15-18 depending on country) is well within the bounds of avoiding this scenario. That said, everyone develops at a different rate, and I think we all knew the 15 year old that was taller and broader than most full-grown men.
I hope that my comment reads well, I may add some small edits of clarification but I believe in general I have expressed the general idea. Have a nice day.
Wanna let undeveloped children cause irreversible damage to their body because they had a phase where they liked to cross dress?
This hilarious argument if wasn’t just a bad faith argument should be enough for everyone be in favor of puberty blockers, to avoid avoid irreversible change while the person matures and can decide what one wants to do.
.
Thanks for the ping. Well said.
I misread your comment and said something stupid :)
Can’t seem to delete comments on Lemmy, so I replace them with a single period.
Apologies for the false alarm.
Only for gender dysmorphia.
Which is still stupid to ban it for that, but a lot better than a total ban.
I don’t know why people are so worried about it. I was over 6 feet tall and shaving before I was a teenager, if I had been given the option to press pause for a few years I would have jumped on it.
There is pretty much zero negative side effects to puberty blockers, it literally just delays it and early puberty is an issue and one that continues to trend in the wrong direction.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/puberty-starting-earlier-treatment-children-rcna125441
Obviously it can be much worse for girls than boys, but it was still fucking weird being a child and having people twice your age assume you were a peer.
I don’t know why people are so worried about it
As far as I understand it, there are two main concerns that people have.
-
There is very limited data regarding clinical proof that the long term use of puberty blockers is 100% reversible in cases that block puberty during the typical years that you would go through it. Traditionally, puberty blockers would be used in cases where children start puberty at extremely young ages, in these cases the puberty blockers would be withdrawn at an age typical for a child to start puberty.
-
Leading on from point 1. Many people don’t trust children to make decisions that could impact them for the rest of their lives. Some parents are concerned they will be met with their child who is now a young adult to be asked “why the hell did you let me make that decision, don’t you know the brain is still developing at that age?”. I would not want to be held accountable for the countless stupid things I said or beliefs I held at a young age, so I can see why it is a concern.
Personally, I’m broadly in support of trans rights and what people want to do when they’re adults is their own business (as long as they’re not hurting anyone), but I think allowing a child to make a decision that may impact them for the rest of their lives is a grey area to say the least. Until conclusive evidence is available I’d draw the line for a child at anything that’s not 100% fully reversible.
Traditionally, puberty blockers would be used in cases where children start puberty at extremely young ages
Puberty blockers have been prescribed to transgender youth since the 90s, they’re use in combating gender dysphoria is just as much a part of the puberty blocker tradition as their use in combating early puberty.
I would not want to be held accountable for the countless stupid things I said or beliefs I held at a young age, so I can see why it is a concern.
This subtle notion that slips into this discourse that being trans is akin to a make-belief thing is deeply frustrating. No, children were not just being given puberty blockers because they suddenly declared that they weren’t their assigned gender. Getting puberty blockers required a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, something I can assure you is not an easy thing to get in this country, and even then still needed a specialist’s approval.
This is the worst part of this ‘debate’, people are led to believe that it’s the child deciding for themselves that they get puberty blockers despite the very stringent requirements on their use for trans youths. The point of this entire ordeal is not to protect kids (puberty blocker usage has a 4% regret rate), it’s to build up the idea that no amount of safeguards can make the prescribing of trans healthcare acceptable to people you don’t believe have full bodily autonomy. Where this goes from here is not looking for other areas in which our medical system is failing children, it’s expanding the list of trans people who don’t have full bodily autonomy. The Cass Review has already said that autistic people need special consideration.
I think allowing a child to make a decision that may impact them for the rest of their lives is a grey area to say the least.
-
It’s not a child making the decision. It’s typically adults making the decision for the sake of the child, and based on the child’s needs. The child is involved but it’s not like the adults just go along with a childish whim. The decision is made with caution and care and expert consultation, and it is not made lightly.
-
Deciding to go ahead with puberty is also a decision that impacts a child for the rest of their life. In cases of gender dysmorphia this can cause psychological trauma that won’t just clear up, and prolong the agony by forcing the person to live into adulthood with a body that feels deeply wrong. At this point, transitioning can be more difficult because the body may already have taken on pronounced characteristics associated with the wrong gender.
-
There is very limited data regarding clinical proof that the long term use of puberty blockers is 100% reversible
There is about 40 years of real life use, and I think a good 20 years of study before that?
How much data from clinical studies and real world use do you need to feel comfortable?
Many people don’t trust children to make decisions that could impact them for the rest of their lives
But the permanent effects of puberty blockers are negligible…
What do you think is permanent about them?
I don’t think you understand what Puberty Blockers are…
You seem to be wanting to ban something completely different.
The forty years worth of proof you are referring to is in almost all cases where the use was to block early puberty and then allow it to take its course at a normal age. There are very few case studies regarding the extended use of puberty blockers during the years where it would typically take place. I did mention these things.
How much proof I would need is a tough question because it obviously requires testing on children and it’s an ethical issue. If a consensus of respected doctors were to agree, I wouldn’t argue though.
At the end of the day, I’m not pretending to be an expert in puberty blockers, I’m saying that sometimes children need to be protected from themselves.
The forty years worth of proof you are referring to is in almost all cases where the use was to block early puberty and then allow it to take it’s course at a normal age.
Which is what would happen if they decided not to go thru with transitioning as an adult…
Which is what you said you’re worried about.
Like, you’re still talking about something besid s puberty blockers:
How much proof I would need is a tough question because it obviously requires testing on children and it’s an ethical issue.
Lots of children go on puberty blockers, the reason they’re going on them doesn’t change how safe they are.
At the end of the day, I’m not pretending to be an expert in puberty blockers,
I’m saying you don’t seem to know what they are. The temporarily block puberty. That is it. You keep wanting to take it to a possible surgery later as an adult, and claim the blockers are a permanent and irreversible step towards that
When that is just factually incorrect.
It is not an opinion we disagree on. It is a fact and you are wrong.
I’m saying that sometimes children need to be protected from themselves.
Literally what puberty blockers are…
So children don’t have to prematurely choose if they want to transition they take blockers until they are sure and mature enough to make that decision, which is almost always when they’re over 18.
If they change their mind, they just stop taking blockers.
I legitimately have no idea how to state it any plainer than this.
Which is what would happen if they decided not to go thru with transitioning as an adult…
That is quite obviously an assumption. You are extrapolating data and although I see the logic of your argument, it’s bad science. The rest of your comment is based on this premise.
What?
You said:
The forty years worth of proof you are referring to is in almost all cases where the use was to block early puberty and then allow it to take it’s course at a normal age.
And I replied:
Which is what would happen if they decided not to go thru with transitioning as an adult…
If someone goes on puberty blockers, decides not to transition…
Then that is:
where the use was to block early puberty and then allow it to take it’s course at a normal age.
You keep saying your issue is with puberty blockers, but the only complaints you have is minors transitioning.
Since that doesn’t happen, you seem to be mad at blockers
I’ve said everything I have to say and I can see trying to explain myself further will be fruitless.
If you honestly think that a child could block puberty up to the age of 18 or further and then change their mind and go through a normal puberty like nothing ever happened, then good for you, personally, I’m doubtful.
Vaccines can have devastating permanent side effects. Should parents no longer vaccinate their children?
The answer for both is:
Whichever option does less harm should be taken. A delayed puberty, despite potential long-term risks does less harm than a trans child going through the “wrong” puberty.
Besides, due to the start of puberty having a pretty large range there should in theory be little harm until the age of 14 or so. And at that age children are much more capable of deciding on medical treatments than as preteens.
The main difference with vaccines is the overwhelming medical proof of the benefits, that’s something that currently isn’t there with the use of puberty blockers during the years you would typically go through it.
I do somewhat agree with your less harm premise. If a child literally threatens to kill themselves, then as a parent you’d feel like you had little choice in the matter, however if there are permanent side effects and the child, now as a young adult starts regretting their decision, it’s going to be shit for everyone.
There is significant proof of benefits:
Positive outcomes were decreased suicidality in adulthood, improved affect and psychological functioning, and improved social life. Adverse factors associated with use were changes in body composition, slow growth, decreased height velocity, decreased bone turnover, cost of drugs, and lack of insurance coverage.
https://doi.org/10.1111/camh.12437
I can’t vouch for the quality of this literature review (because I don’t want to take an hour or more to read a paper for a Lemmy comment), but usually literature reviews show a fuller picture than individual studies.
Also, this sentence is in the conclusion:
Although large long-term studies with diverse and multicultural populations have not been done, the evidence to date supports the finding of few serious adverse outcomes and several potential positive outcomes.
If puberty blockers are not reversible and if the person decides that they are not trans in later life, then the consequence would be that they are stuck in a body that doesn’t match their self-image.
If that sounds bad to you, well …
-
except for use in clinical trials
Let’s hope that allows many kids access to the care they need. If there’s a real concern about the safety of puberty blockers, then clinical trials are exactly what’s needed to find out. I’m not entirely convinced this is really due to medical concern though. It smells like Labour trying to out-bigot the Conservatives, just to prove they’re not lefties any more.
My understanding is by medical standards, the evidence is pretty low quality, which is why GnRH agonists aren’t approved by the EMA, MHRA, FDA, or NICE for gender dysphoria.
It highlights a wider issue in medicine though, the obsession with randomised controlled trials, which is basically the only evidence the GRADE method considers “high quality”. We are seeing exactly the same problem with MDMA assisted therapy, any therapy where blinding is difficult is dismissed by the medical establishment. NICE dismissed (es)ketamine for depression for the same reason. Add to that the fact that GnRH agonists are off patent, so there’s no incentive for industry to fund studies.
My understanding is by medical standards, the evidence is pretty low quality,
Your understanding is wrong and influenced by transphobic rhetoric, not “medical standards”, which have considered puberty blockers safe and effective since at least the 1980s.
The use of puberty blockers is supported by twelve major American medical associations, including the American Medical Association,[14] the American Psychological Association,[15] and the American Academy of Pediatrics.[16] the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,[17] the Pediatric Endocrine Society,[18] the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists,[19] the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists,[20] and the American College of Physicians.[21] In Australia four medical organizations support them,[22] as does the Endocrine Society,[23] and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH).[24]
Overall, puberty blockers have demonstrated an excellent safety and efficacy profile in the treatment of precocious puberty. The most common side effects reported include nonspecific headaches, hot flashes, and implant-related skin reactions.[39]
E: and before you try throwing bone density at me, most of the people impacted are cis (and will not be stopped from taking blockers), and either way, there is simple treatment to counteract this minor issue (and which is completely insignificant when compered to the alternative). The ban is 100% motivated by transphobia and cruelty.
We’re not talking about the use of puberty blockers in cases of precocious puberty, we’re talking about them in cases where they’d block typical puberty in cases of gender dysphoria.
Will this finally settle the debate so we can focus on more pressing issues?
It will increase suicides in transgender youth
It has settled the debate - our government hates trans people, and is actively withholding our human rights and going out of its way to harm us.
If that isn’t a pressing issue to you, you are part of the problem and a transphobe.
No because this was clearly the wrong decision to come to.
#SorryNotSorry you can’t silence the LGBT community that easily.
Is your life a debate to be settled? Could you kill yourself and settle that debate for me?
