I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).

  • isolatedscotch@discuss.tchncs.de
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    24 days ago

    perfectly agree with the meme, that said I’ve tried to make the same argument to people IRL and their response usually is “well Ukraine provoked them by trying to join NATO” and being the absolute dumbass that I am, I can never come up with a decent answer on the spot.
    does anyone have a cool one liner to use or am I stuck with having to explain the various geopolitical issues

    • LANIK2000@lemmy.world
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      24 days ago

      The idea of Ukraine joining NATO was literally unimaginable before Russian aggression. After the fall of the soviet union there were multiple agreements like the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine and Budapest Memorandum that basically established Ukraine as a sovereign and neutral nation under the protection of the west and east. Even after Russian interventions in Ukraine and finally the taking of Crimea, NATO members like Germany were still vocal about never letting Ukraine in.

      Also if Russia truly cared about NATO expansion, how come we barely hear anything about Finland and Sweeden? I occasionally even forget they’re a part of it now.

      • lad@programming.dev
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        24 days ago

        NATO members like Germany were still vocal about never letting Ukraine in.

        I sometimes think that it was exactly because they expected things to go as they did. If they let Ukraine in, they would need to weasel out of helping help, after all

      • humble peat digger@lemm.ee
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        24 days ago

        Shows how little u know. Ukraine literally put NATO into the constitution prior to 2022.
        Then zelensky tried to get nuclear weapons.

        Again - don’t follow msm, they have an agenda.

          • humble peat digger@lemm.ee
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            24 days ago

            I don’t care about Ukraine. I don’t want my money going into military to support a country that has universal health care while I still do t have universal health care.

            Fund universal healthcare, not Ukraine or Israel.

              • humble peat digger@lemm.ee
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                24 days ago

                Someone needs to force their hand, if you just give them what they want anyways, there is no reason for them to do anything for u

                  • humble peat digger@lemm.ee
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                    24 days ago

                    See the problem is that Biden could have easily negotiated some deal on Ukraine. That then doesn’t require any resources spent on it. But because he has some shady buseness interests there - they used state resources to fight for his fucking personal business interests.
                    That’s the problem.

                    Don’t for a second think america wants to help someone. We dont help. We don’t even give healthcare to own citizens , what do u think we would do to others.

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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              24 days ago

              I think you need to learn how the Military-Industrial Complex works, because if weapons aren’t going to Ukraine, and it sounds like they won’t, you still won’t get your socialized medicine. Especially not in an oligarchical fascist dictatorship.

              • humble peat digger@lemm.ee
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                24 days ago

                We the people should get stubborn and refuse to support the goals of military industrial complex as long as they keep refusing us our goals.

                I get absolutely nothing from Israel achieving it’s goals of killing brown neighboring people and clearing space for themselves. Nothing.

                Ukraine - u know what! I don’t care about it. Just cut a deal for mutual management of Ukraine and equal economic access. I don’t care about Ukraine winning or Ukraine being a strong country in eastern Europe. I do not care. It’s outside of my interests as a private citizen, only military industrial complex wants that war.

                  • humble peat digger@lemm.ee
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                    24 days ago

                    nothing. im not going to do shit.

                    im just annoyed people buy into propaganda that goes against their best interests.

            • LANIK2000@lemmy.world
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              24 days ago

              Fair, but it misses the trees for the forest. The US already pays WAY more for healthcare than any other country. The money is literally there, just mismanaged. While I feel your frustration, simply cutting aid to allied countries won’t change anything domestically.

              • humble peat digger@lemm.ee
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                24 days ago

                They are not allied countries for me.
                Israel is a genocidal regime and Ukraine is just a shithole in eastern Europe.

                I don’t need these as allies.
                I get absolutely nothing, 0 from funding them. Cut them

                • 0ops@lemm.ee
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                  24 days ago

                  Really? You’re going to complain about one country’s genocide and justify another in the same sentence? At least be consistent

        • LANIK2000@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          Citation needed.

          The Ukranian constitution has no amendments even mentioning NATO.

          And Zelenky demanding nuclear weapons is a recent development. So not “tried” but “trying right now”. Not even the Russians claimed such prior.

          And I don’t watch MSNBC or whatever else “msm” is supposed to be. Bold of you to assume I not only watch American news, but also a specific broadcaster. That’s got to be like a less than 50% chance.

          • VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world
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            24 days ago

            MSM is mainstream media rather than a broadcaster. I actually hear it a lot from conservatives who are somehow convinced that Fox News isn’t mainstream media despite being the USA’s most watched network.

        • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          Ukraine literally put NATO into the constitution prior to 2022.

          Everyone knows that’s how becoming a NATO member works!

          The EU works that way too! You tell them you want to join, make it super official that you pretty please want to join, and then you’re in!

    • Emanothep@lemm.ee
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      24 days ago

      The husband who beats his wife analogy might work. “She deserved it, she thought about going to the police” Another thing, even if it was predictable doesn’t make it wrong to help Ukraine no matter what.

    • nexguy@lemmy.world
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      24 days ago

      “So a nation is not allowed to make its own decision about defense or else Russia just gets to have it?”

      “Nations beg to join NATO which is very reluctant and has a long drawn out entry process”

    • Mangoholic@lemmy.ml
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      24 days ago

      And the annexation of crimea was not provoking and pressuring them to search for defense from NATO?