• wieson@feddit.org
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    3 days ago

    It’s not necessary to reclaim every kilometre with fighting. If Russia is brought to it’s knees financially, the peace can still be achieved.

    Just look at ww1. For its entirety, the front was in France and Belgium and Germany held french territory. They still lost. And the Atlantic blockade and sanctions were a big part of that.

  • LePoisson@lemmy.world
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    4 days ago

    You understand that just posting a bunch of bullshit links with bad takes doesn’t make it true.

  • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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    4 days ago

    The sadistic clown gets more and more pathetic…

    No negotiations until we get Crimea back.

    Ok we won’t get Crimea. But no negotiatians until we get back to 2022 borders.

    Ok we won’t get back to 2022 borders. But no negotiations until someone makes Putin negotiate with me (???).


    Turning Ukrainians into slaves who cannot leave the country are kidnapped off the streets and sent to die the most horrible deaths in the meatgrinder? Yes that’s totally legal and absolutely moral, why are you even asking?

    Making peace with Russia by admitting you lost the war to save hundreds of thousands of lives? That’s like the most illegal and horrible thing ever.

    • Ciderpunk@lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything? It sure would change the context of everything you were saying if there was some kind of external event that made these things happen and they aren’t just occurring in a vacuum! Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about, almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!

      • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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        4 days ago

        Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything?

        Yeah, it’s cool that it justifies all the atrocities and tortures of his regime, right? Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days. Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.

        Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about

        Why wouldn’t you specify what I’m lying about? :)

        almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!

        I mean I guess that’s true. I’m indeed part of such a group - a group of people who would like to not get murdered along with their entire families and all their friends by Zelensky’s regime…

        • Ciderpunk@lemmy.world
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          4 days ago

          I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country, if you have proof of this you should probably like, reveal it or something, that would be kind of a big news story!

            • Ciderpunk@lemmy.world
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              4 days ago

              My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!

              • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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                4 days ago

                My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!

                Lol, really?

                Russia is doing “Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.”?
                Woah, now I see why everyone hates Russia! If Russia really has this power of forbidding people to leave the territory they do not control - we really need to destroy them at all cost, this power is too dangerous for anyone to have it… /s

                • Ciderpunk@lemmy.world
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                  4 days ago

                  Nice work cherry picking the single item on the list that doesn’t fit, you sure aren’t beating the allegations today!

        • Soleos@lemmy.world
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          4 days ago

          Assuming you’re coming from a place of arguing in good faith, you raise an important point. We must always scrutinize the alignment of our means with the ideals of our ends. And in war, even with a just cause of repelling invaders and securing a people’s future, there is a spectrum of injustice against their people that leaders must weigh against achieving these goals. Conscription is a good example of this. War makes monsters of even the most well intentioned. However, we must consider the alternatives that appeal most to us with equal scrutiny, using history as our guide. If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example? I am not qualified to say what are better choices. I just know that when a superior force invades you, the grim situation that results means that any choice you make as a leader will involve harm to your people.

    • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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      4 days ago

      “Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing and deporting Ukrainians in the occupied regions on an industrial scale. Every time Russia retreated, mass graves and torture cbambers were found.

      Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done. The west could have equipped those poeple. The west could have trained those people. In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted, if they were properly equipped and trained. It’s in the west’s power to do that. They just don’t want to. Also, you just conveniently ignore the absolutely horrific losses the Russians are having with theirmeat wave assaults. But I guess in your world view, Zelensky is responsible for that too.

        • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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          4 days ago

          If you can’t even read the first two paragraphs of your own source

          Mediazona, in collaboration with BBC News Russian service and a team of volunteers, maintains a named list of deceased Russian military personnel. This list is compiled from verified, publicly available sources, including social media posts by family members, local news reports, and official announcements from regional authorities. This list is not exhaustive, as not every military death becomes public knowledge.
          To provide a more comprehensive picture of the war’s impact, we offer a second figure: an estimate of excess mortality among men, based on Probate registry data. This method was developed in collaboration with Meduza, to address the limitations of relying solely on publicly reported deaths.

          • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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            4 days ago

            Yeah, these are estimates based on actual evidence, as opposed to made up numbers. It’s not exhaustive, but it gives a realistic idea of the scale of casualties. Meanwhile, there is zero evidence for any kinds of meat waves. There’s not a single video of that happening from the past 3 years of the war. It’s a narrative that only the most gullible people could believe. The reality is that this is a war of attrition where vast majority of casualties come from artillery and Russia enjoys a 10x artillery advantage.

            • Grapho@lemmy.ml
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              4 days ago

              Rehashing literal WW2 Nazi propaganda bc libs haven’t even gotten past that myth

            • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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              4 days ago

              There was a video posted literally a week ago of north koreans ‘rushing’ a Ukrainian stronghold and getting demolished out in the open. We have multiple, as in more than a dozen, statements by Russian personell, that their squads are suffering up to 90% losses. Bakhmut alone cost over 30.000 Russian lives.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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                4 days ago

                Let’s this video of north Koreans 😂

                We have multiple, as in more than a dozen, statements by Russian personell, that their squads are suffering up to 90% losses

                [citation needed]

                Bakhmut alone cost over 30.000 Russian lives.

                Bakhmut was likely the costliest battle of the war for Russia, however as you look at the casualties it’s clear they’ve been steadily going down https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng-trl

              • Grapho@lemmy.ml
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                3 days ago

                There’s been claims of north Koreans captured here, spotted attacking there, giving an interview in Russian uniform, and yet not a single piece of evidence has ever been provided. If the state department said tomorrow that Bigfoot had been spotted in Donbas and was fighting for Russia half of you would be here repeating it as incontrovertible fact since there’s all that evidence.

      • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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        4 days ago

        “Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing and deporting Ukrainians in the occupied regions on an industrial scale.

        Serious citations needed. Please do not spread atrocity propaganda in this comm.

          • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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            4 days ago

            I’ve found no UN reports detailing activities such as those on an industrial scale. Please cite the UN reports.

            • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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              4 days ago

              https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/coiukraine/a-hrc-55-66-aev.pdf

              2.58.

              The Commission previously found that Russian authorities had committed torture in seven provinces of Ukraine and in the Russian Federation. 32 It has continued to gather evidence of widespread and systematic use of torture by Russian authorities, in both Ukraine and the Russian Federation.

              Literally the first report I opened.

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                4 days ago

                Continue, you only have several more claims that aren’t cited. For example, the use of language “industrial scale” for torture.

                Also please keep in mind that this isn’t a high standard of evidence, as UN reports often are influenced- such as the significant citations of the German fascist Adrien Zenz in some of their reporting on China.

                • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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                  4 days ago

                  Please enlighten me what the substantive difference between ‘industrial scale’ and ‘systematic and widespread’ is. Not enough conveyor belts and smokestacks?

                  Similarly, please point out to me what your exact issue is with the report I linked.

                  Also, citation needed that Zenz is a fascist. I found much criticism of him, but no credible allegation that he is a fascist.

      • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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        4 days ago

        “Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing

        Woah… Holy shit, you actually said that… “kidnapping, torturing, killing” - literally what Zelensky’s regime is doing.

        Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done.

        Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.

        In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted

        I know I know, all of us would gladly die for your interests, and those of us who wouldn’t are Russian agents.

        • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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          4 days ago

          Woah… Holy shit, you actually said that… “kidnapping, torturing, killing” - literally what Zelensky’s regime is doing.

          So you want to sell me one incident that is acknowledged and is being investigated as a gotcha to discredit the systematic and widespread torture the Russian state is employing? You really are dense.

          Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.

          And again, you want to sell me one incident that is being investigated as a gotcha to the illegal and widespread use of tear gas by Russia in this war? Not beating my accusation there, you are.

          • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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            4 days ago

            So you want to sell me one incident

            Holy fuck, and you are telling me that I’m dense… That’s what happens every single day, it’s in the mainstream western media for a long time now - https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html. Zelensky’s regime kidnaps and beats people every single day, thanks to your support.
            How many accidents would be enough for you to admit that Zelensky is terrorizing Ukrainians with your support? That’s a rhetorical question of course, obviously Zelensky can do whatever he wants as long as Russians are dying as well, right?

              • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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                4 days ago

                Got it, Zelensky can kidnap, torture and murder people until UN releases a report on it. Thanks for clarification. At least you set some red line, usually its simple “to the last Ukrainian” kind of thing :/

                • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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                  4 days ago

                  Yes comrade, I too envision Zelensky personally pressimg a gun to the temple of every Ukrainian that refuses to get drafted. What a despicable behavior, to make out the victim of an invasion to be the perpetrator.

                  There is exactly one person that can end the invasion with the snap of a finger, and that person is Putin.

        • Ciderpunk@lemmy.world
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          4 days ago

          You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for everyone Russia.

          • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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            4 days ago

            You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for everyone Russia.

            Why are you trying to make me responsible for the invasion? How is this my fault? How is this fault of every other (well, non-Nazi ones anyway) Ukrainian? Why do you support terrorizing, murdering and torturing all of us?

            • Ciderpunk@lemmy.world
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              4 days ago

              Well since I said “you” and you aren’t the entire population of Ukraine (I assume, but maybe you do in fact contain multitudes) I don’t see how this is relevant at all!

    • CrayonMaster
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      4 days ago

      I… are you accusing him of losing the war because he enjoys it?

      • Grapho@lemmy.ml
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        4 days ago

        He’s losing it because his western sponsors won’t let him negotiate a peace deal (that the majority OF HIS COUNTRY wants, regardless of what armchair chicken hawks think they should do). If he had tried at any point, he would have gotten deposed (or worse) like they deposed Yanukovich in 2014.

    • TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org
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      4 days ago

      Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.

      • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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        4 days ago

        Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.

        Please tell me more about this analogy of yours.

        He is a sadistic clown because he turned country into a mass prison where he kidnaps people off the streets, beats them and send them to the meatgrinder to die. And those who don’t like it are literally tortured. All while you cheer his efforts.

        • TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org
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          4 days ago

          Until somehow the world order changes and states dissolve into something else, drafts are a fact of life. One of the prices you pay for having a state provide you with stable infrastructure, transportation, fire, medical, law enforcement, property rights, etc. etc. is the possibility that one day you may be called upon to defend that state.

          Your beef is with the systems we have, not Zelensky in particular.

    • john89@lemmy.ca
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      4 days ago

      I don’t consider him a ‘sadistic clown,’ but I do see your point.