I bit ago I made a post detailing the Egg prime directive in Egg irl. To be clear that was a policy post but it also helped outline the concept in a way that many people don’t do. Most descriptions of the Egg prime directive are either incomplete or, purposefully uncharitable. So it’s good to clarify it.
This is a different kind of post, unlike that one it’s not a policy post in regards to community enforcement, it’s more meant to address the issue in a general sense.
Today I’m going to talk about why the Egg Prime Directive is important, and also more importantly, why people disagreeing with it or not following it isn’t acceptable.
First why does it matter? Well I discussed it heavily in my other post but the gist of it is that it is important to respect the way a person identifies themselves, the pronouns they use, the label they call themselves. Regardless of how they look or present themselves. It seems like a pretty fundamental concept that there shouldn’t be any issue with, yet somehow many people seem to have an issue with it and don’t do it. When a person’s identity isn’t respected it can be deeply hurtful and is ultimately deeply disrespectful to them.
Why ‘disagreement’ with the egg is problematic at best? Well the thing is, because the Egg Prime Directive is solely about respecting the way a person identifies themselves and their autonomy to identify themselves in a way that they see fit, to argue against it is to argue against people’s validity to self-identification. It’s not much different from arguing against certain aspects of trans rights. Ultimately many instances where people break the Egg Prime Directive are targeting individuals who are Gender-Nonconforming or even NonBinary.
Some people argue that they should be able to break it to fight cisnormativity. However this is a very poor justification to try and make it seem okay to violate someone else’s gender identification and ultimately isn’t being done for their benefit, it is going against their right to identify as any gender or use any label they feel like. To be clear, they have that right, all the time. The idea that someone doesn’t have the right to identify as their preferred gender or label in certain circumstances is downright dystopian.
Bottom line, there is no such thing as respectful disagreement with this concept, going against the Egg Prime Directive is solely an act of going against another person’s identification. It isn’t respectful to them as a person. It’s very similar to “respectful transmedicalism” or “respectful transphobia” in this regard. It is a harmful behavior made out as if it’s respectful or good.
Oh and By the way. Before someone tries to argue that Egging is “politely explaining what trans means to someone” this subject has been covered in the last post and respectful support and education is NOT Egging, and is freely allowed by the Egg prime directive, if not explicitly encouraged, trying to argue as if it somehow isn’t is disingenuous, and frankly seems extremely uncharitable.
Strongly agree with this. Even if one is correct about someone being an egg, eggs need to be supported to hatch for themselves, not be smashed open before they are ready. Let eggs hatch.
I try to just silently lurk here as a cishet ally but to offer my experience being “egged”—
I had a close friend question my identity fairly recently. For a few moments i was taken aback and asked them to explain but im glad it happened. It allowed us to have a conversation and i was able to have my friend respect my identity. To me it was hurtful that we have known each other for years and they have questioned my identity the whole time. You see the problem isn’t that they “egged” me, it’s that they questioned my identity to begin with. Once they’ve done that then id rather talk about it. Id rather people see me the way i see myself. Again, it just feels weird to me to talk to someone, be a close friend, be in their wedding, and all the while question how they identify but never once mention it. If someone is going to question my identity id rather just talk about it. And even if i was an egg, i would have much rather started that journey years ago instead of waiting to talk to me.
I don’t think that my singular experience debunks your whole thing, but i do think that i don’t fully agree with it.
Edit: to add, they told me they think im trans because of XYZ. I do agree that discussion about gender would’ve been a softer approach and probably better for people other than me. I also acknowledge i can’t fully know how it would feel to be told that and not be comfortable with my identity. On this acct I’ve shared that im exmormon-- when i was Mormon there was a lot of people talking behind my back or not telling me what they really thought. It’s why now i just prefer bluntness and why i think regardless of my gender identity i would appreciate a close friend just telling me what they think instead of beating around the bush. This obviously wouldn’t be the case for everyone and i acknowledge that.
I think the last part is so important, and why the “Egg Prime Directive!” mantra makes me a bit uncomfortable.
Why?
Because I wish so much somebody had sat me down in my mid teens and said “hey, dumbass, the reason you’re so unhappy and wish you were a girl is because you’re trans. You should talk to a therapist.” I resent losing out on all those years.
How would I have reacted to that hypothetical person? Probably very badly, which is why Egging is a Bad Thing.
But if someone had talked to that kid with kindness, explained about what being trans is without accusation, and lent an ear until I’d worked up the courage to ask for professional help, things might have turned out much better.
I suspect a lot of egging comes from a similar place. So let’s try to show people how to be supportive without invalidating others’ identities, in preference to beating them with the anti-egging stick. Exactly how to achieve this, I have no idea…
I think approaching a situation like yours with kindness doesn’t require breaking the prime directive though. There’s a big difference between “you’re trans and should start transitioning” and “wow, that reminds me of how I felt when I was figuring my gender stuff out.” The former is what a therapist did to me, immediately trying to push medical transition on me the second I mentioned any gender feelings, after which I never saw her again. The latter might have been useful to me in a way that respected my own journey.
Sure, was that therapist “right” in terms of me socially transitioning and starting hormones about a year later? Yeah. But, she was wrong to think it was appropriate to push my timeline and had I listened to her I fear I would have been plagued with doubts that my transness was rooted in that therapist’s opinion rather than my own lived truth.
Ah, that’s what I was trying but failing to express.
Given how the population of trans-centered spaces appears to skew heavily towards newly-out and questioning people, it seems likely to me that many people just don’t know how to comment helpfully without egging, or realize that they’re being harmful.
It reminds me of the “oh you’re trans? But you don’t look it” comments: yeah, they’re essentially transphobic but more likely than not born of ignorance rather than hate.
The end result is the same, though, so I don’t want to pretend it’s not harmful. And I agree that enforcement is needed.
I had a very similar path, and would probably have responded similarly. I’ve also been on the other side of it and believing with high confidence that taking a transition step would help someone be happier. I didn’t push her on it. Because it was her decision even tho in my head I was screaming “just take the fucking estrogen”. It took almost a year but she recently shared that she started HRT. It was her decision, made in her own time, on her own terms, as it should be. Her body, her gender, her choice.
Here’s the thing about egging, while I do see the ability for people to grow and change from their mistakes, the same could be said about any mistakes, including ‘polite transphobia’ i.e. “I’m okay with trans people but I wish they wouldn’t try to force it on kids” that kind of shit. Now this behavior isn’t excusable even though they may learn from it, and similar “Boys don’t want to dress like girls, if a boy wants to she must be a girl because that isn’t cis behavior” rhetoric ends up being gatekeeping and invalidating as well.
One could argue that these people might mean well with their statements and not fully understand the implication of what they are saying, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And frankly it’s not worth it to excuse these kinds of toxicity, it creates a toxic space where people are able to question or debate other people’s identities in ways that are invalidating or harmful. They do have the opportunity to learn which is why I am explaining the Egg Prime Directive, but the people who hear this, give it an uncharitable interpretation, then violate it blatantly need the stick. If not for them for the rest of the community who doesn’t want to and shouldn’t need to tolerate being called an egg for being NB or GNC.
Ultimately that way to “try to show people how to be supportive without invalidating others’ identities” is to educate them like what I am doing right now. But since people get hurt when identities aren’t respected, the level of flexibility they will be afforded to mistakes or noncompliance must me minimal, if even present at all.
Thanks for posting this here!
My problem with defences of the “egg prime directive” is that it’s blatantly transphobic, and frames cisness as an inherently natural correct state while transness is something only a select few do. Encouraging someone to question their gender isn’t the same as denying them their gender identity, you can at the same time identify ways that someone seems to be having a similar experience as many trans people do before coming out while totally accepting that they are what they are right now.
I’ll be honest, it feels like a rebranding of the old homophobic defense of homosexuality, that it’s a small percentage of the population that suffers from this condition, so we should be nice to that select few, but oh no don’t you go implying morally upstanding people like me or my child could be one of those people.
It didn’t have a cutesy name associated with it, but it’s similar to why “born this way” was criticized when that framing was used for gay existence and why it played into a conservative framing of queerness: it’s a thing the degenerates do over there, but if they try to come into polite society and try to do things like talk to kids about being gay, it’s not because they’re trying to reach out to gay kids who might be in unsupportive environments where being gay is never presented to them as a thing they might apply to them, it’s because they’re sickos who are trying to groom kids into becoming like them.
In a time when countries are trying to make trans people legally not exist and forbid people from even being able to talk about them, I could not imagine a worse time to stop talking to people about transness and that people who don’t identify as trans might be trans. Our enemies will definitely happily tell anyone experiencing dissatisfaction with their AGAB that they’re definitely not trans just shy/not (wo)manly enough/needing conversion therapy/etc, so why let them control the conversation about who can or can’t be trans?
Talking about your own lived experience or the experience of other trans people? Amazing! Encouraging a specific person, unprompted, to question their gender? Fundamentally not a good idea.
The whole problem is your assumption that unsolicited advice is a good idea. It rarely is. When genuinely trying to help people, it’s more useful be clear that you’re talking about your own perspective and your own situation. This will be much better received, and it will not make normative assumptions about how others ought to act. Saying what people should do is the real problem with egging. It unnecessarily orders people to think about their gender rather than giving them the tools to do it themselves. If they are an egg, they’ll use those tools when they’re ready.
You missed the mark so much that I don’t think you read what I wrote in either case, and/or this is the most uncharitable, bad faith interpretation you could think of. Trying to smear me and the topic at hand as well as going extremely far off the rails.
There are many uncharitable readings of the Egg Prime Directive and this one you came up with is very high on the list, and honestly, this comes off as extremely disrespectful when the only thing you are asked to do is to not directly challenge or debate someone else on their gender identity as if you have the right to somehow arbitrate who they are and how they identify. That’s it, it doesn’t say anything else about not discussing transness or queerness with them, or denying them access to information. In fact I literally said:
respectful support and education is NOT Egging, and is freely allowed by the Egg prime directive, if not explicitly encouraged
This part about denying information to people is a bad faith argument that people made up to paint the idea of having rules for basic levels or respect in someone’s labels or pronouns as if it’s a bad thing, and it’s honestly a pretty disgusting lie at that.
No I did read your post and replied in good faith. I’m sorry you didn’t like my response but I remain firm in my position that your argument doesn’t do enough work to distance itself from the clear transphobic origins of egg prime directive beliefs. People disagreeing with you isn’t bad faith.
If you actually did that makes it even worse. Disagreement itself isn’t bad faith, but spreading lies is, going for the most uncharitable interpretation (including intentional misrepresentation) absolutely is.
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You also remind me of someone I used to know, who would accuse others of being transphobic because she disagreed with them, or because they called her out on things that are regressive and/or harmful. I’ve seen it all.
Why do you think I care lmfao
I called you transphobic because you made a transphobic post and you got really defensive over it. It’s not that deep.
K bye
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Hi can you explain precisely how the Egg prime directive is “willfully withholding information”, because from how you explained it it seems you did not read anything that I wrote about it, and instead chose to give it the most uncharitable interpretation that you could think of.
Just for clarification how it was laid out doesn’t prevent or intend to stop people from sharing information, it intends to stop harmful behaviors like “Sweetie you’re definitely an egg, no one who’s a boy would ever want to dress and act like that”, you know blatant gatekeeping. Though maybe you think that standing up against someone or debating their identity in such a way constitutes that, in which case this argument is futile because you are arguing for the very thing many of us here do indeed find reminiscent if not straight up transphobic in nature, that is to say intentionally misgendering someone or dismissing or debating their identification.
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I think what a lot of people in your position fail to understand is that for someone else to challenge or debate your identity when you don’t know, or worse, are okay with or even happy with the way you currently identify can feel extremely shitty. It’s not going to necessarily make a person who’s comfortable with their gender seriously question their gender, but depending on the hostility of the egg culture and the kind of arguments people are making it can make them question reality or feel like there is something that is wrong with them. The worst cases of Egging are outright gaslighting, and torment. One hallmark of it is that the person being egged doesn’t have a say in it or a way to formally get out of it.
It also doesn’t target cis people either. See a lot of people in your position think it’s a trans vs. cis thing, but it isn’t. It almost explicitly targets Gender-Non-conforming people. That also includes people who are nonbinary, genderfluid, transmasc. People who might be seen in these situations as some form of trans-in-denial. When they aren’t even cis to begin with. Maybe you think that’s different but the kind of egging you’re talking about, based on external ““signs”” or presentation doesn’t discriminate, it catches all GNC people in the net, especially those who are stealth or otherwise not openly Trans/NB/Genderfluid.
Now to say it’s to fight cisnormitivity is laughable to me, and many other people to be honest, because gender stereotypes and gender conformity is one of the most cisnormative things there is out there. Think about it, the idea that only girls wear makeup, or dresses, or can act/dress cute, that isn’t something that we stand for. Yet it is the backbone of that kind of egging.Edit: I want to clarify that I’m in no way trying to imply that trans people are enforcing gender stereotypes. I am trying to point out that the act of egging people based on gender presentation and non-conformity is enforcing those stereotypes, as if to imply that someone dressing or acting a particular way means they are that gender. I’m not saying that trans people are enforcing gender stereotypes. Quite the opposite. My criticism is toward Egging as a behavior.
And I’m sorry but, because of all that, I genuinely believe that the “egg prime directive” kills people.
It makes me wonder how many Nonbinary, Genderfluid, or even transmasc people have also been killed by unfounded egging. By the aggressive presumption of their gender identity, making them feel bad or invalid and not feeling like the world accepts them. I’m Agender, I’ve gone through this before and I know what I’m taking about. Having someone argue to you that you are something that you aren’t sucks ass. Invalidation sucks, who knew.
To your point about nonbinary people getting caught up in it. I can’t even tell you at this point how many specifically trans women I’ve had tell me point blank to my face that I’m not actually nonbinary. That my egg still hasn’t fully cracked and the only reason I think I’m nonbinary is because of internalized misogyny. I’m just too scared to be the woman I really am deep inside.
I didn’t figure out I was trans until my mid twenties. I had a whole gender crisis in high school but because my knowledge of gender identities began and ended with full binary MtF/FtM I eventually figured I must just be cis but against the gender norms forced on men and boys. Yeah I’d have crying fits wishing I had been born a girl, but those tended to link back to people bullying me for not being “man enough” or my early career wish of going into childcare or early childhood education and quickly learning that I’d be forever looked at as a predator purely because man alone with children. When I thought about actually being a girl? That didn’t feel right either. I’m sure at least a little bit of that was due to being asexual and not being comfortable with the sexualization inherent in much of the female experience but I didn’t know that at the time.
Anyway it wasn’t until I had that discussion with the woman that eventually became my wife that I learned that nonbinary was even a thing you could be and suddenly I had a word for everything I’d felt since I was like 14. So I understand the impulse to say “but I wish someone had told me sooner” but like… I got “egged” a lot before this. Not a single one heard my story and gave me info on nonbinary identities. They all heard me say “I don’t feel right as a guy, but being a girl didn’t feel right either” and did some variation of “Egg. Internalized transphobia/misogyny. Egg.”
That really sucks, I’m sorry you had to go through that
It really sucks that people can be so ignorant and intolerant. I’m happy you were able to figure yourself out in the end though, in spite of those horrible enbyphobic people.
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Okay, maybe that’s a thing online. Because like I said in my first comment, I’ve only heard the egg prime directive even mentioned on the internet, and before this post only by people criticizing its obvious harmfulness.
I’ve definitely heard of it happening offline, but it is true that most people only ever talk about the Egg prime directive online. Likely because most violations occur online.
I disagree, I think there’s a very definite and perceivable difference between external signs of transness and gender noncompliance. I think reducing what I’m talking about to wearing makeup or dresses or whatever (two things I don’t do btw) is completely missing the point.
I’m just going to share this because I think it illustrates how assumptions about someone’s relationship to identity can go wrong.
There’s a lot of overlap and while there are things outside of the center region that align with one but not the other, there are a lot on the middle. In real life these boundaries are way more fuzzy. So I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong but there is a lot of nuance and fuzziness that makes it much less concrete in real life.
This is a TERF talking point. TERFs say that trans people reinforce gender stereotypes and gender conformity. Please don’t talk like a TERF, I’m sure you can make your points without borrowing their rhetoric.
I’m not trying to say that trans people enforce gender stereotypes, I apologize if I came off as trying to say that but I’m not. I am saying that Egging as a behavior, especially the aggressive variety does. I have edited the original to clarify what I mean and I apologize for any miscommunication.
And I said cis supremacy, not cisnoramtivity, for a reason. Those are different concepts. Withholding observable information about someone’s relationship to gender (a very different thing from anything to do with identity) concerns me more for how it frames cisness as superior than how it treats cisness as the norm. Although both are bad, one seem much more significant to me in this context, and I specified for a reason.
Again you speak about it like it is concrete, when it is only an assumption. That is the core root of problems in egg culture. Assumptions that could be correct, but also could just as easily be wrong. Since at the end of the day other people don’t know us the way we know ourselves.
This post is literally the first time I’ve ever heard of egg stuff affecting those groups specifically. If it’s really a widespread issue that sucks, but I kinda hate the “egg” concept to begin with. This post upset me because it reminded me of stuff from my own life I still haven’t totally gotten over, maybe I shouldn’t have even commented since it involves communities and culture that I’m not a part of. But as you’ve presented it, the egg prime directive reads as just doing what cis society already does, and throwing unaware but visible trans people to the wolves.
It is a very big problem that largely goes unnoticed unfortunately. Speaking about your concern, the Egg Prime Directive in its charitable form is significantly different than what you describe. Since under that being supportive and educating people on the existence of gender identities and making them feel safe is allowed and even encouraged. It is not the same as sitting back and doing nothing. It is supporting them, making them aware but not taking away their autonomy.
Yes, it does. And all of society is arguing that trans people are cis, all the time, to all of us. And it hurts! Which means that making an argument in the other direction from time to time saves lives.
Except it isn’t an argument in the other direction, it is by in large an argument to allow people to have autonomy over their identities and identification, and to support them by giving them as much information as possible to help them discover themselves on their own. It does not mean ignoring them or keeping them in the dark. Not in the slightest. Maybe many incomplete or uncharitable interpretations have said or implied that, but it is far from the intention of having something like this. The intention is to make people feel comfortable and safe, and not like someone else is trying to arbitrate their identity for them.
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I’m done with this conversation I think, I’m not in a great place and I don’t want to keep mentally going over this stuff. I don’t have any hard feelings, we’re all under attack with all the anti-“gender ideology” stuff and I don’t want to fight. I’m just gonna talk about one thing because it’s been a bugbear for me in a lot of different contexts and it’s something I actually like thinking and talking about lol
Ok I hope you feel better, things can be hard but hopefully in the future things can get better. I’m still holding out hope they will eventually. I’m sorry you didn’t have a good day, hopefully your day tomorrow is better
