In my opinion, the people like Maupin, Jackson Hinkle, and especially the Infrared YouTube channel (people like Haz) have not engaged in the debate in good faith AT ALL.

But moreover, I do believe that patriotism, certainly “American patriotism”, has no place in the ML movement. I believe in the working-class, but I wouldn’t want to muddy the waters with cheap appeals to what would essentially be working-class conservatism and chauvinism. I won’t say much more than the fact that my comrades and I have been talking about this extensively and all agree: decolonization comes first and foremost. Landback is a must and many people, of all races and ethnicities, have been hurt by colonialism and neo-colonialism as well as imperialism both within and outside the United States, the original indigenous inhabitants being a prime example.

I hope I haven’t said anything to offend anyone, but I support Landback and decolonialism. I even originally became an ML in part due to Berta Caceres’s murder in Central America. In the CPUSA, Browder was very controversial and was fought against as he became more and more unpopular (until he was finally ousted, in huge part because of his “Americanism”). SO even then: the issue of “American patriotism” was suspect. I think that we live in a much more radical and interesting time where decolonization must take center stage now more than ever before.

That Haz would say that “indigenous peoples” or Native Americans have no place in the ML movement is folly; we should be doing more to not only comfort them but make us more available to them as a movement, not decry them or anything.

Anyways, enough Twitter drama. I took a break from most social media and I feel much better now. But I think Maupin/Haz (Infrared)/Jackson Hinkle have belittled and side-stepped the issues at stake, from what I’ve seen of their content.

It does the wider communist movement a disservice when people claiming to be CPUSA members (who obviously aren’t or can’t be traced back to in the databases) and people who certainly are CPUSA members (albeit, from what we can tell, a minority so far in the organization) try to appeal to right-wingers and sometimes even believe in their nonsense. Well, I can’t say much more about the organization other than what’s on display on Twitter, but I do think that one should be open about all this.

Welp, that’s all I have for now.

@muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml

@felipeforte@lemmygrad.ml

@yogthos@lemmygrad.ml

@protestation@lemmygrad.ml

@nour@lemmygrad.ml

@Farmer_Heck@lemmygrad.ml

  • ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml
    1·
    3 years ago

    Being patriotic towards the USA is very different from beifn patriotic towards DPRK, Vietnam etc. All the quotes you list talk of patriotism towards oppressed nations.

    • enigma@lemmygrad.ml
      2·
      3 years ago

      Explain the selection of quotes below then:

      “The government of the United States represents, as its army also does, the finances of the United States. But these finances do not represent the North American people; they represent a small group of financiers, the owners of all the big enterprises… who also exploit the North American people. Clearly they do not exploit them in the same mannger that they exploit us, the human beings of inferior races… for we have not had the good fortune of being born from blood, Anglo-Saxon parents. But they do exploit and divide them, they too are divided into black and whites, and they too are divided into men and women, union and non-union, employed and unemployed” - Che Guevara

      • Why do online left people think that patriotism for one’s PEOPLE, means we agree with what our government does/has done? I love my PEOPLE, my COMRADES, and that’s why I want to change my country. This quote demonstrates that it is no different for the United States, just as it wasn’t for Latin America even though it was made up of settler states, nor was it different for the GDR even though they had just suffered under the Nazis before it’s establishment yet they were still patriotic for the people and the progressive elements of the past and built their own socialist states that they were patriotic towards and defended against from the agression of the imperialists.

      "The US flag is your flag, you cannot allow the US ruling class to own the flag. The working class of the US must fight for the flag and once socialism is established it is up to the workers to decide what they want to do with flag and the US as it exists - Fidel Castro (Addressing a group of students who did not want to associate with the US flag while other countries from other countries sat next to theirs)

      • It is clear here what I said in another comment here, that American ‘Communists’ never learn because no matter what other Communists tell them they must do to suceed and win, they still do the opposite and alienate the masses and without the masses you cannot win because only the masses can make a revolution but if you look down on the masses like Trotsky looked down upon the peasants as inherently reactionary then you will never win them over and your movement will stay irrelevant. Anarchistic actions such as flag burning (Which is understandable for nations oppresed under the boot of imperialism but I am talking about Americans, particularly white Americans in denial) have never brought one ounce of sucess to the American Communist movement in the last 50 years. Socialism isn’t just about having ‘correct beliefs.’ If your position does not allow you to build a mass, POPULAR movement of your countrys MAJORITY, then you are not a socialist.

      “Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions; The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better…” - Mao Tse-tung

      • This quote demonstrates that socialist patriotism is patriotism for the people themselves, not for the genocidal imperialist state and its actions internally or externally against oppressed peoples. It is in the interest of the vast majority of the American people regardless of race to overthrow the American bourgeoisie and free themselves from their chains.

      Here are some links on the book settlers because Americans seem to somehow think that it is compatible with Marxism when it is fundamentally at odds and alien to it.

      – Settlers Debunked -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7 -8

      Also when it comes to decolonisation, this article explains in detail actual real examples of it in action in the world past and present, that are not just empty sloganeering and false virtue signalling.

      • ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml
        0·
        3 years ago

        I was going to write a reply but am too tired. Maybe later.

        Edit: how do you define patriotism exactly?

        • enigma@lemmygrad.ml
          1·
          3 years ago

          Firstly patriotism is not nationalism. However there are many different types of patriotism such as Jingoism (which is uncritically supporting everything your country does) or Chauvinism (which is the oppression of oppressed peoples and seeing your country as superior as well as pushing your values on people), these are extreme forms of patriotism. They are also the most common expressions of patriotism in the United States for obvious reasons. Socialist patriotism (or just patriotism) on the other hand is a love for your people, it does not mean you support your country when it oppresses oppressed groups or that you love the system that oppresses workers and oppressed peoples, it means that you love the people and want to liberate them from the oppressors and the system those oppressors uphold.

          Destroying the U.S. empire is just as much in the interests of the American working class as it is in the interests of the Cuban or Afghani people.