“It would be great if people had to buy more of the thing,” says guy who makes money selling the thing.
I mean, maybe disk drives are outdated, but being unable to buy used games or give your old game to a friend is garbage (but great for profits of the console manufacturers and game studios). Not to mention that as long as it’s a digital download, you don’t own the game - you lease it at a flat rate.
Limiting the options and ownership rights of the consumer for profit is bad.
With how games work these days, having just the disk is pretty much useless if the publisher decides to delist or discontinue the game from platform, because:
- patches and updates don’t come with disk form anymore.
- many games that requires online authentication to play won’t be available to keep playing if their account service is down.
- games go on sale with steady rate most of the time(except nintendo), for bargain bin deals you would probably find the game on humble bundle or gog.
- you often have the good games that release “better” remake version over and over anyway. Note, I know people sometimes prefer the original version, but not everyone is on the same page and it hugely depending on the dev/publisher for the newer version.
Now let’s describe the cons:
- in many countries, breaking DRM is illegal. So even if all you want to do archive, you can’t make a decrypted copy. That’s why homebrew etc provides the key/dumper for you to do such at your own risk. IMO, it’s safer(INAL) to download pirated iso/rom compare to doing your own dump. And, archiver actually tried to keep a post patch version before store is closed down(see wiiu store close example), the disk version is not a viable option anymore for archiver.
- storage up keep, physical things require storage space. I still have like 3 large shipping box for my older gen(ps3/GC/Wii/X360 games) I will probably donate them to library or something and keep the only ones I wanted to keep.
- console part cost, the BD drives are often first point of failure, then HDMI connectors. Cause well, moving parts are easier to break and harder to QA. PS5’s 2 versions gives a good example how the disk affects the look, weight, etc. Not to mention, they are a lot slower then SSD and you are required to install all that anyway.
- developer/publisher/platform see nothing for used game sales. It sounds like huge shill talk but let’s be honest, they want to make a living, if you are not supporting your favorite developer they will have to offset the cost by doing shit you all won’t like. ie, mtx, subscription service, selling analytic data, selling the studio to shit publisher that push worth practice, platform raise price to meet target projection. Buy/sell used game only helps that service owner(gamestop/ebgame/bestbuy, not the community.)
- did I mention switching disc just to play game is a PITA, and if your case is the modern garbage version, remember those plastic break down more easily and you would have to buy new case to hold your disc.
- environment waste for all the manufacturing, packaging and shipping. It’s honestly not worth that in modern era if you give a fuck about how future generation will live.
Not to mention that as long as it’s a digital download, you don’t own the game - you lease it at a flat rate.
not true all the time. Plenty of games once you have the files are easily able to run. KSP is one such example. I can just copy the KSP folder to any computer and play the game.
Its the devs choice to require things like Steam to validate the game etc.
This article is about consoles, not PCs. Good luck copying your console game to another folder on the HD.
Even disk-based games on newer consoles often don’t include the full game; in many cases they’re just an installer, really, which then requires downloading the bulk of the files from the net.
Funny enough that was already possible on the PS3, so it’s a matter of control rather than technological limitation. They use the excuse of “technological progress” to close the walled garden even more.
I have backups of my games on a PS4, which is air gapped (because the USB interface took a shot of lighning and no longer works).
I have been able to restore them and play games/saves on this console.
Here: https://www.playstation.com/en-us/support/hardware/ps4-back-up-and-restore-with-external-storage/
FTA:
PS4 console data you can back up Backing up your data regularly is a great way to ensure that important data is saved. You can back up the following types of data saved to a USB drive.
- Games and apps
- Saved data
- Screenshots and video clips
- Settings
All user data saved on your PS4 console (excluding trophies) is included in the backup data. When you restore your backup data, your PS4 console is reset, and all data saved on your console is erased. If you want to return data without restoring your console, use USB extended storage or cloud storage.
I tried copying game data when we were replacing our PS4 hard drive, but it just caused a lot of problems (with games having to “verify” the installation when launched, which was a very lengthy process, probably longer than just re-downloading it would have been; I don’t know what it was actually doing). We were able to preserve save data, though.
For me, this was because the PS4 uses USB 2.0 that caps out at 480 Mbps. It was basically doing checksums of the backup files vs the restored and it just took time, even when the backups I had it running on were a sata SSD.
Even disk-based games on newer consoles often don’t include the full game
That’s pretty rare despite being constantly mentioned in this thread. I can think of a few that are strictly multiplayer games or the Master Chief Collection which is just a huge net installer disc.
Otherwise games still become gold and are playable start to finish off disc. Switch games on the other hand have quite a few that require a download.
That’s fair. It often is the case though, and I think many people don’t consider that as being a problem because it just doesn’t occur to them.
I think Valve is an example of a company that does it well, since you can download the game if Steam were ever to go under, etc. and you can add non-steam games to steam. It’s almost unavoidable that they do it well, though, since steam is running on PCs (mostly).
But Nintendo does it badly. If Nintendo decides to stop supporting Switch downloads, my digital content will vanish (unless I root my switch, etc. but then I may as well just pirate everything). But, at least nintendo has a card reader for their games - if they got rid of it, I’d never truly own any Switch game and would also be forced to pay massively inflated priced for re-released old games, crappy switch ports, or Nintendo titles which almost never decrease in price or go on sale.
Would agree. Especially re:Nintendo.
One of my biggest annoyance is when you have multiple switches on a family account. If you use cartridges local co-op (or whatever it is called) requires two copies of the game (a cartridge in each). If you have the downloaded versions/digital download, then any device on the Nintendo account (ie: 2 switches for kids on a family account) can play against each other locally.
I don’t think you can cache/save a cartridge to a device to be able to do their local play feature (ie via ad-hoc connections in a car)
Other games i know that do this are factorio (you are able to download the game as a zip, and it doesnt stop you from making as many copies as you desire)
It’s only outdated to the rich families who can afford brand new games for their kids. Excluding discs is a great way to force many out of the market.
I wouldn’t say this is always true. Numerous times I’ve bought digital games from the PS store that were heavily discounted while places like Gamestop were still asking MSRP ($69.99) for new or $10 off for used on a game that came out years prior. I still prefer to own a disc but sometimes digital is cheaper and more convenient.
That’s why stuff like Gamepass are picking up. Poorer families may not be able to afford a £70 game each month, but £15 a month for a huge library is more achiveable.
This sounds like a console user problem. PCs haven’t had disc drives for years and the games are far cheaper. Yes, there’s no second-hand market, but with steam sales, humble bundles, and all the freebies I post in !freegames@feddit.uk it’s not really become the corpo hellscape we feared.
Also technically you don’t own games on disc either, it’s just much harder for the publisher to come round your house and snap your copy!
That’s why NFT’s were created, but now that people link NFT’s to dumb ass pictures, I wonder how if ever it’ll make it as proof of ownership.
That’s not a bug, it’s a feature. They want to sell you digital version specifically because you can’t resell them. It could easily be solved by creating a digital marketplace, and even turn a profit for the publishers by taking a cut of resales.
He is obviously biased by his business interests, but frankly he is ultimately correct. Once consoles are digital only, console players will lose the last form of control they have over anything they own.
Not if modern proof of ownership technologies are implemented, such as NFT smart contracts.
Nah, dumping your own copy, or at least DRM-free digital, is a much more reliable way to maintain your ownership than any blockchain-based system.
You don’t need CDs for that, and CDs don’t prevent that.
As the other user pointed out, most CDs don’t even have a playable form of the game on them anymore. You usually need additional updates to actually play the game (or in the case of those steam installs, the CD doesn’t even have a bare minimum on it)
Technically you can own a game as a digital install too, just they won’t deliver it that way.
Most? That’s definitely not right. Every single game I bought up to the PS4 could be played without any downloads.
I think they mean most recent or most new games, the PS4 came out nearly a decade ago.
Every single game I bought up to the PS4 could be played without any downloads.
But they still couldn’t be played directly from the disk, which is part of the point of the comment you replied to. Every single game I have for PS3 requires it to be installed onto the console in order to play it.
This is why I edited my last comment to say explicitly “played without any download” rather than “run from the disk”, the comment I replied to was missing my point. I couldn’t care less if the disk goes spinny or not, this is not about storage technology, it’s about control over the games you buy. The point is owning games without being bound to online services, which a disk that can be installed directly does perfectly fine.
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I watched a YouTube video where the guy played Cyberpunk on a PS4 from disc with no patches installed. It was as bad as you think.
Cyberpunk on PS4 was an unparalleled shitshow
They’re all digital only now. There’s no reason, at all, to have optical drives in consoles. With the advent of direct nvme to video memory you have to load content to the nvme anyway because spinning g plastic sucks soooo much. Today SD is actually cheaper per gb than Blu-ray.
Want to purchase a physical copy? Buy it on a SD card and get a $10 usb SD card reader, which will be compatible with every console anyway.
My prediction will be that the next gen (PS6) will go 100% download only, get shat on then start up a service with gamestop or someone to distro encrypted game installs onto WHATEVER usb media you bring in.
Today SD is actually cheaper per gb than Blu-ray.
Just checked Amazon prizes for the first best SD card and Bluray disc. This is a lie. Discs are still less than half the prize.
And you didn’t take into consideration that it’s much cheaper and faster to press the data onto the disc than writing on an SD card when you do that in great numbers.
You should check prices on the 2GB SD cards not the high end ones because the disks usually contain that much or less. Most AAA games only have the game INSTALLER on the disk, and still require you to download the game in order to play it.
30 second search at 100gb (modern AAA games and the biggest Bluray)
Bluray is $10 a disc, microsd is $8 and you get 128gb and can get bigger media, which doesn’t exist for Bluray.
That doesn’t account for mass production, fewer people care about physical media with every passing year.
Physical media will still exist, but it won’t be optical. Opticals advantages over cart just don’t exist anymore. You don’t include a $80+ part on the bom when less than 5% of your users want it and that 5% can get a bog standard usb device that can be had for $10
Its incredibly niave to think it costs Sony, co-developer of blu-ray, $10 to press a game onto a blu-ray disc. Its probably costs a dollar or less to manufacturer a disc by bow. They can sell blurray movies for $9.99 and still profit.
It will definitely be cheaper for Sony to stick with optical discs next gen if they don’t drop the drive entirely.
It’s also dumb to expect they’ll be paying retail for microsd or whatever usb flash sticks they decive to use.
MicroSD is not comparable to the flash memory on NVME SSDs.
Bluray is $10 a disc
Bluray hasn’t been $10 a disc since maybe 2003. Bluray discs are literally pennies to a manufacturer like Sony.
Nobody said it was. It’s a medium to get games from a brick and mortar store to install onto the nvme on the console you can’t play modern games directly from Bluray either.
You are mixing having your own physical copy with needing to run games straight from the disk. Nevermind that there’s no reason that games couldn’t be sold on faster cartridges, you can still have a physical media that can install a game into the console. Offline, without relying on an online service that will inevitably close eventually.
As it is, with disks and cartridges, they can’t make it so absolutely every game must check with their online services. They have to make sure grandma in the boonies can make little Timmy’s game work right out of the box. Without them, there’s nothing stopping them. They could even straight up say that “no game could be expected to last more than 10 years”, and I see enough people that already seem ready to fall for that. Nevermind that to this day there’s people playing the nearly 40 year old Super Mario Bros.
They have to make sure grandma in the boonies can make little Timmy’s game work right out of the box.
…and yet, most AAA games cannot do this, and require you to go online and download the game assets after you put the disk in the console.
I literally just replied to you about this and I don’t know where you are getting it from. Games may ask for updates but games that are unplayable without downloads are very much the exception.
Damn, lot of hate for physical media in this thread.
Xbox One announcement (E3 2013): "YOU CAN TAKE MY DISKS FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!
Current Year (2023): “Disks are outdated and dead, who needs em anyway?”
Y’all forget way too easily and they are starting to prey upon it.
To be fair, most people are thinking of the reasons of ownership, whereas xbox one was about availability.
The problem is it’s kind of murky now since most discs don’t even contain the game anymore. So yeah you can lend/sell them but you’re still dependent on a digital store. It’s just a license for a digital game in physical form. I say this as a physical media proponent.
I am not pro-digital only but if the discs don’t have the game I’m less inclined to pay extra for what is likely to be the first part of my console to fail.
Yes it is weird. I get people preferring digital copies but I dont get having hostility toward physical media.
Because there’s a lot of misinformation in this thread.
All media is physical media. All data is stored on a medium. Data is real and physical. Some data is stored on paper in ink writing, some data is stored as ones and zeroes on a disc drive, but the type of disc drive may vary. Hard drives, USB thumbsticks, SSDs, and so on, are all physical media.
If I destroy a BluRay, or destroy a hard drive, or burn a piece of paper, does the data still physically exist? No. In all cases, destroying the medium in which the data exists destroys the data. Whether it is paper, a disc you put in a drive, or a hard drive.
When something is stored “in the cloud” it’s still on a hard drive somewhere, just not on your hard drive somewhere. You have essentially chosen to store your property on someone else’s private property. Much like a physical storage unit. If the storage unit burns down, everything in it will cease to exist. If the data center where your cloud data is stored burns down without any backups, same issue, the data ceases to exist.
People in this thread specifically only dislike one type of physical media, and it’s a type that has one of the shorter shelf-lifes for long-term data storage.
Also, with hard drives, its often trivial to recover deleted data, which is why companies that deal with secure data often completely shred old hard drives to prevent data being exfiltrated from them after wiping.
This is needlessly pedantic. When people say “physical copy” they are talking about a physical, individual storage medium with a game on it that you can trade/sell/lend/etc. and give full transfer of the license contained on it. My hard drive is useless to you if all my games are bought via the Microsoft store and you can’t access my account. My halo 3 disc will work on any Xbox 360/Xbone/XSX for anyone every day. Is the distinction clear now?
Not often I get to say this, but I completely agree. I HATE the walled garden that is the PS store. 90 usd for FIFA? 130 usd for some random GOLD edition of a ubisoft game? No way. Let me pick those up dirt cheap two months later at a retailer who is having a sale, or from someone who has played it and is ready to sell it onwards.
I prefer having a physical game collection, but with the way physical games are handled now, with more than half the game needing to be downloaded to the console to cut costs or because they didn’t finish the game before release, it doesn’t solve the preservation or ownership problems anymore.
That’s where piracy comes in, even if it does tend to have negative effects on smaller devs. So long as there is no server or internet connection required to play, piracy will rain supreme in preservation.
Ownership, on the other hand, is a lot trickier. I personally say just having, for PC games, the game download .exe (or equivalent file) is enough to be considered owning it, but that doesn’t mean much.
The way I see it, piracy is fine, but only once the format is dead. I recently hacked both my 3DS and Vita to access the whole libraries since those formats are dead with ones digital store switched off and the other half dead and barely functioning.
But yeah, pay for new releases.
Yeah keep that mindset and follow Blockbuster’s fate.
Besides Gamestop - I think it could be important. What if the servers shut up in the future? How do you get your purchased games?
You download them and back them up. What happens if the disc is scratched or your buddy drops a blunt on it?
If they’re purely digital and drmed you can’t back them up.
I have backups of my PS4, with games downloaded from the PS store that say different.
Heck any Playstation disc games tries multiple times to get you to save it to the HDD.
The DRM is the key part of that. So the answer is DRM-free, not physical media. Especially since all games get patched these days.
You can’t buy all games at GOG.
You can’t buy all games on disc either. Also, not every game on Steam has DRM.
Your buddy buys you a new disk…
If it’s still being published or if a second hand copy doesn’t cost more than your buddy’s annual wage.
What fucking second hand games are you buying? Beloved classics aren’t that expensive.
In retrospect there were some advantages to Blockbuster compared to streaming services where stuff disappears every day.
Six months ago Cohen didn’t give a flying fuck about disc drives because he was selling the idea that you would soon buy all your games from GameStop on an NFT marketplace that they recently had to shut down because the SEC is cracking down on NFTs as Securities.
He gives a fuck now because his golden goose got shot in the head.
Buggywhip salesman demands accomodation from the horseless carriage industry.
Yes, I’m upset at the licenseification of the gaming industry as much as the next guy but that died long before physical media did. As long as a game can die without its first-party servers, games are leased and not owned.
Nobody cares what Gamestop boss says, lol.
“i LiKe ThE sToCk”
It’s going to moon any day now, for real this time! /s
I thought GameStop was going all in on NFTs and bragging about how it was going to revolutionize the gaming space because you could be more “invested” in the things because you really “own” (hahahaha, fucking as if) your own copy.
Oh, wait, *checks notes
They totally are winding that down and going “whoopsie doodles!”
Ryan Cohen making a quick spin because he’s a fucking idiot, and the only thing he has to sell is an “idea” of a company that respects its consumers. GameStop ain’t it Superstonkers. This guy literally went from “You’ll be buying all your games as NFTs at GameStop” to “Errm, yeah, we need physical drives, you know for the gamers, not so we can continue ripping people off with used games.” What a fucking joke. He didn’t care about physical media six months ago because he was all-in on NFTs.
GameStop gonna get Toys ‘R’ Us’d hard. If this is the best Cohen’s got right now, they’ve got nothing.
The regulatory environment isnt doing the NFT-based game ownership model any favors.
NFTs and how they only hold enough data to point to a URL aren’t doing the model any favors. NFTs have been a joke since they were initially released. They don’t show ownership of an item, they show a re-direct to a URL where an item you might be able to claim is yours exists.
The people who bought into the idea of “smart contracts” in NFTs got taken for a fucking ride. There’s simply not enough BITS to be able to store such data within an NFT. The best they can do is a URL.
Yeah I dunno man. NFTs at least allow for a softening of the walls in the garden. The potential is there for fun and interesting ideas like interoperability between games and game assets, and 3rd party platforms for buying, selling, and interacting with games and game assets.
At minimum it’s a combined digital proof of purchase and login credentials that you can custody yourself and transfer/sell at will without being forced to do so through the makers’ infrastructure.
People shitting on it seem to default to an oversimplified idea of what they are and can be, and a bad faith superiority on top.
That’s not something I get down with. I like new tech. I like experimentation. And I like seeing where things go rather than assuming I already know.
I can own digital files just fine without needing all that unnecessary bullshit. It’s the copyright cabal that says I don’t “own” them.
Funny, because I have the files stored on a physical drive. If that drive is destroyed, so are the items stored on it. Ergot, data is real and physical. You can already own it physically. NFTs are actually just one more way for wall street to justify the bullshit ways copyright doesn’t work.
Because nothing is stopping digital “ownership” from existing as it currently exists, except people who don’t like the idea that data can be copied infinitely at no cost.
This is why I never took off my pirate hat, because it’s just a bunch of tomfoolery to make you think things don’t already work this way. They do, computing always allowed data to be copied infinitely. It’s jerks who try to code locks to hide them behind who are the problem.
It’s also why I buy games at GOG, because they respect this. They sell games with no DRM and understand that this means piracy will happen, but do it anyway because it’s the right thing to do.
What if that digital file is the title to your car, deed to your home, your college degree, passport, driver’s license, etc?
Living in a digital world there are IMO fascinating use cases for unique (read non-copyable, self-custodied) digital objects.
What I’m not interested in are assumptions of limitations for things we barely understand.
What if that digital file is the title to your car, deed to your home, your college degree, passport, driver’s license, etc?
If you destroy the hard drive they’re stored on, it’s no different than burning a piece of paper they’re written on. Data is always stored in a medium, whether it’s paper or a disk drive. So for digital files like that, you would choose a storage medium that is rated for long-term storage and put it in a fireproof safe. Done.
You’re basically asking “what if you lose the title to your car?” Well, there’s plenty of ways to get a replacement title, even though they’re not easy or free.
The bottom line is data is real and it’s always in a storage medium. The storage medium is what you should be worried about more.
Oh wait, that NFT you “own” is stored on someone else’s server? Oh wait, I guess you don’t own it then, because that data is on a hard drive owned by someone else in the “cloud” and if they destroy that drive, they also destroyed the item you ostensibly “own.”
Oh the server with my Title Deed for my home went down and now I have no proof I own my own home? Probably should have kept a copy of the file locally!
There is nothing interesting about NFTs because they’re a fundamental, nay, purposeful misunderstanding of what data is and how it works.
Sorry my question was poorly formed. You were talking about digital files being stored perfectly fine on a local medium. I was talking about new use cases for unique digital objects, and gave examples of different kinds of existing credentials/titles.
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Or at the very least, add a way to sideload DRM-free games. That’s why I love my PS3, WiiU and even my Switch to an extent.
Disc drive consoles are great for people who go months with terrible or no internet. People in the military, or just about anyone who goes out to sea can get a disc mailed to them. It is nice to have physical media to play the games off of.
In the current climate where it takes 30 patches and a year for a new release to become playable, discs are not very useful…
??
Of course they are. Because - you can buy the fucking things second hand or lend them to people!
Sure, but it’s really weird that we are relying and want to rely on disks to be the license basically, because the data storage part is quite useless, at least when your connection is faster than your blue-ray drive. (plus you can directly download the patched game)
They should keep putting whip holders in cars.
I can see them forced to have some form of resellable media Ala switch maybe. But disc’s as others have stated I think are on the way out. Esp bc they’re so easily scratched and everything else…like good for a time but should’ve had something else come in once cartridges caught back up in price. They were always quicker by a long shot…it’s just that memory prices weren’t there in the 90s or until now even really. If I don’t like or don’t want a game I want some way to sell it off and can’t do that digitally bc they won’t equate it to the same thing as selling a used copy XD
I have never ever managed to scratch a disc to the point where it became unusable. Neither have I ever had problems when buying used discs. I agree about the speed though; at this point my internet speed surpasses the speed with which games are installed from a disc
I mean I’ve bought plenty that were scratched but still worked. Only one that didn’t really was the twilight princess we found randomly in my church parking lot when I was younger. I just don’t like the speed since no one seems to get nailing down loading times. I’d love something Ala switch games tho…
I want a return to cartridges, like the switch.
Same tbh…
