I ain’t gonna judge how one chooses to sell their body, time, safety, health, etc. But we do need to treat sex workers like other workers and ensure they have safe working conditions and the freedom to leave their employment at will. Heck while we’re at it we should extend it to agricultural labor too
Farm workers in Ontario, Canada are not entitled to:
minimum wage
daily and weekly limits on hours of work
daily rest periods
time off between shifts
weekly/bi-weekly rest periods
eating periods
three-hour rule (if you show up for work and are sent home before you’ve been there for three hours, most jobs are required to pay you for three hours)
Are you suggesting we don’t give it to sex workers because farmers don’t have it or we give it to farmers too.
Technically I think most farmers are their own business so if they want to have holidays off they can. The alternative is state run farms which I support fully and completely.
I’m just saying what farm workers don’t get. Farm workers and sex workers both deserve better than they get. This is specifically for people employed on farms and not for people who own farm businesses. Most of our food is grown by people making less than minimum wage. The people who own the farms aren’t the ones doing most of the work.
I feel people who equalise sex work with other jobs downplay (immensely) the toll sex work has on the majority of sex workers.
It is really not comparable to construction work or any other job. Even in countries were sex work has long been legalised, there is no other job, by a long shot, which has so many people suffering from PTSD, drug and alcohol abuse.
That’s why I was not saying they shouldn’t have the same rights as everybody else. But instead I said what I said?! That this type of comparisons to other jobs downplays in my opinion that sex work is not just like any other job.
Are you aware of any sources specifically evaluating participation in sex work as a causal factor in mental and substance disorders (as opposed to sex work represented more prominently in populations already affected)?
Yes, this study corrected for reports of CSA, lower income, etc. in people who are drug addicts. For those who are additionally sex workers they found:
increased rates of mental and physical health problems (eg, suicide attempts, anxiety, STDs, and bloodborne infections) and use of some health services (eg, emergency department visits for women and mental health services for men)
There aren’t many studies done which correct for mental health issues before someone starts as a sex worker. Even less which achieve a long-term study over a cohort of sex workers where not ~80 % can’t be found anymore for various reasons.
But there are a few on how to protect the Johns sex workers from STDs. I leave the interpretation of this inbalance in research to you.
:-)
If two effects are correlated, then three possible causal relationships are possible.
A first effect may cause the second, or the second may cause the first, or a so-called third variable may cause both.
It is possible that an individual who has been afflicted by certain difficulties is more likely to participate in sex work.
It is also possible that individuals from certain populations are more likely to participate in sex work, and also, due to being associated with the population, are also more likely to be afflicted by certain difficulties.
Both possibilities must be considered as alternative to sex work causing such difficulties, to explain the correlation.
I do know how correlation works.
The study above shows that, when you correct for previous mental health issues, for lower socioeconomic status, low income, drug abuse, etc. sex work increases various mental and physical health risks and mortality.
Right. The remaining possibility is the third variable. Membership in certain populations may be associated with increased likelihood of becoming a sex worker and also of experiencing difficulties that you are suggested are caused directly by being a sex worker. Such difficulties may appear after someone has become a sex worker, even while having an independence cause.
Sure, but that is true for ever job then. An unknown and hidden confounding factor explaining job choice and the problems of the job can always exist.
Police officer or fire fighter aren’t actually dangerous. It is simply that people who are more likely to make bad decisions that get them killed also are those that choose to be police officer or fire fighters.
Burnout does not affect teachers with higher probability than it affects hairdressers. It is because people who get burnouts are also the people who choose to be teachers.
Sure, but that is true for ever job then. An unknown and hidden confounding factor explaining job choice and the problems of the job can always exist.
The general principle may apply to any job, but you wanted to study the population of sex workers in particular, and doing so requires collecting and analyzing data, in regard to sex workers, properly and sufficiently, toward a conclusion.
I only suggested that your conclusion may not be robust if sex work is disproportionately represented by populations that carry broader vulnerabilities to some of the difficulties that you inferred were directly consequences of sex work.
Not to say PTSD and unhealthy coping problems aren’t a valod concern, but if we’re going to try to reduce jobs based on how taxing they are on the human psyche, there are a number of fields that are respected that also qualify.
Off the top of my head, schoolteacher and service industry worker. Cooks amd wait staff.
When you consider that even in countries like Germany it’s almost exclusively poor women from other countries, often single mothers and/or already with mental health issues, who do sex work, I think it’s very naive to believe the job is the same like flipping burgers or construction work. Or that these issues only stem from stigma and working conditions.
Unless I missed them, I don’t see comparisons to war veterans, at most the second one compares them to civilian survivors.
In any case, I don’t think anyone is questioning the fact that sex workers need way safer working conditions, it was the very point of the first commenter. “Treating them like other workers” was meant in a good sense, as they’re currently treated worse.
These jobs don’t come close, though. They also don’t attract primarily people who are already poor and mentally unwell to put them into a situation hard to leave that further increases their problems.
I ain’t gonna judge how one chooses to sell their body, time, safety, health, etc. But we do need to treat sex workers like other workers and ensure they have safe working conditions and the freedom to leave their employment at will. Heck while we’re at it we should extend it to agricultural labor too
Farm workers in Ontario, Canada are not entitled to:
Are you suggesting we don’t give it to sex workers because farmers don’t have it or we give it to farmers too.
Technically I think most farmers are their own business so if they want to have holidays off they can. The alternative is state run farms which I support fully and completely.
Think they were referring to the last sentence from the comment they replied to:
So most definitely just supporting agricultural workers rights.
Only 47% are self employed actually, and 30% are temporary foreign workers that can get screwed pretty bad
Does this count family members?
I’m just saying what farm workers don’t get. Farm workers and sex workers both deserve better than they get. This is specifically for people employed on farms and not for people who own farm businesses. Most of our food is grown by people making less than minimum wage. The people who own the farms aren’t the ones doing most of the work.
You’re crazy! /s
Especially agricultural work, as there is equally as much (sexual) exploitation happening!
I feel people who equalise sex work with other jobs downplay (immensely) the toll sex work has on the majority of sex workers.
It is really not comparable to construction work or any other job. Even in countries were sex work has long been legalised, there is no other job, by a long shot, which has so many people suffering from PTSD, drug and alcohol abuse.
To be blunt, that’s not at all relevant to the fact that they should have the same rights as everyone else if they do choose to do it.
That’s why I was not saying they shouldn’t have the same rights as everybody else. But instead I said what I said?! That this type of comparisons to other jobs downplays in my opinion that sex work is not just like any other job.
Are you aware of any sources specifically evaluating participation in sex work as a causal factor in mental and substance disorders (as opposed to sex work represented more prominently in populations already affected)?
Yes, this study corrected for reports of CSA, lower income, etc. in people who are drug addicts. For those who are additionally sex workers they found:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/482625#SEC2
There aren’t many studies done which correct for mental health issues before someone starts as a sex worker. Even less which achieve a long-term study over a cohort of sex workers where not ~80 % can’t be found anymore for various reasons.
But there are a few on how to protect the
Johnssex workers from STDs. I leave the interpretation of this inbalance in research to you. :-)If two effects are correlated, then three possible causal relationships are possible.
A first effect may cause the second, or the second may cause the first, or a so-called third variable may cause both.
It is possible that an individual who has been afflicted by certain difficulties is more likely to participate in sex work.
It is also possible that individuals from certain populations are more likely to participate in sex work, and also, due to being associated with the population, are also more likely to be afflicted by certain difficulties.
Both possibilities must be considered as alternative to sex work causing such difficulties, to explain the correlation.
I do know how correlation works. The study above shows that, when you correct for previous mental health issues, for lower socioeconomic status, low income, drug abuse, etc. sex work increases various mental and physical health risks and mortality.
Right. The remaining possibility is the third variable. Membership in certain populations may be associated with increased likelihood of becoming a sex worker and also of experiencing difficulties that you are suggested are caused directly by being a sex worker. Such difficulties may appear after someone has become a sex worker, even while having an independence cause.
Sure, but that is true for ever job then. An unknown and hidden confounding factor explaining job choice and the problems of the job can always exist.
Police officer or fire fighter aren’t actually dangerous. It is simply that people who are more likely to make bad decisions that get them killed also are those that choose to be police officer or fire fighters.
Burnout does not affect teachers with higher probability than it affects hairdressers. It is because people who get burnouts are also the people who choose to be teachers.
The general principle may apply to any job, but you wanted to study the population of sex workers in particular, and doing so requires collecting and analyzing data, in regard to sex workers, properly and sufficiently, toward a conclusion.
I only suggested that your conclusion may not be robust if sex work is disproportionately represented by populations that carry broader vulnerabilities to some of the difficulties that you inferred were directly consequences of sex work.
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deleted by creator
Um, law enforcement comes to mind.
Not to say PTSD and unhealthy coping problems aren’t a valod concern, but if we’re going to try to reduce jobs based on how taxing they are on the human psyche, there are a number of fields that are respected that also qualify.
Off the top of my head, schoolteacher and service industry worker. Cooks amd wait staff.
No, apparently not even war veterans have similar high rates of PTSD.
For sources you can look here, for example: https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12905-017-0491-y
Or here: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-459170/v1.pdf
When you consider that even in countries like Germany it’s almost exclusively poor women from other countries, often single mothers and/or already with mental health issues, who do sex work, I think it’s very naive to believe the job is the same like flipping burgers or construction work. Or that these issues only stem from stigma and working conditions.
Unless I missed them, I don’t see comparisons to war veterans, at most the second one compares them to civilian survivors.
In any case, I don’t think anyone is questioning the fact that sex workers need way safer working conditions, it was the very point of the first commenter. “Treating them like other workers” was meant in a good sense, as they’re currently treated worse.
These jobs don’t come close, though. They also don’t attract primarily people who are already poor and mentally unwell to put them into a situation hard to leave that further increases their problems.
I agree, but I for one am not enamored with the idiom of selling one’s body.
Yeah, it’s probably more akin to a rental or timeshare setup (or so I’ve heard).
It would be a more direct and accurate metaphor, though of course still potentially stigmatizing for the same reasons.
Unfortunately, others are often unwilling to engage thoughtfully or sensibly.
They lurk on the shadows, ready to pounce on a straw man, in order that they may claim they slew Goliath.
Their tactics are successful in the same way as clickbait.