I’ve been to places that had free municipal wifi, mostly at libraries and bus stops. It seems like a small service that is generally helpful to people without access to their own wifi. I think the better solution is to have more places with free wifi at night so people don’t have to congregate in the one small area.
There aren’t many places the unhoused are allowed to exist in public and cutting them off from essential services only makes it harder for them to better their situation.
to better their situation
Well, that is, assuming they want to. Some, definitely. Long term loiterers, not so sure.
People who are addicted or who have given up to that degree are less likely to want help if they think real life can only be totally miserable for them (like, “the world is unbearable, there’s nothing good left for me except [drug name here]”). Same reason people who are depressed turn to drinking. Making the lives of unsheltered people even worse, thus making drugs more appealing in comparison, is counterproductive. And the longer they’re stuck in that, the more that’ll just feel like what life is to them.
Maybe people who don’t want to, or don’t act like they want to, better their situation actually would if they could see any hope for it, and if the path looked more doable and less like scaling mount everest with a broken leg.
I think anybody can think of times they didn’t want to do something that would benefit them - clean a house, do their homework, go to work in the morning - and other times that the situation was different and so it was much easier to do.
California wants to help the homeless but they also don’t want to pay for drug treatment, safe injection sites, or psychiatric centers.
California does, right wingers in California do not and they pay MASSIVE amounts of money for advertising campaigns to misrepresent drug treatment, safe injection sites, and psychiatric centers as free drugs and won’t somebody think of the children???
Do you want one of THOSE people to be getting help next door to you? Oh the horror! Don’t you know that junkies sneak off in the night, into your homes in order to stab your children with drug filled needles??? Do you have any idea what it’s like to be near a psychiatric center? I do. My brother’s nieces cousins uncle twice removed on her mother’s side told me that the crazies like to kidnap your children and vandalize your house.
Where did I put my pearls? I’m in desperate need of clutching them.
/Dripping Sarcasm Also source: I live in CA
So we should take away something that is necessary to someone helping themselves (have you tried to apply for a job or take a class without using the internet recently, it’s required), just because some people don’t care about living in squalor?
If all they are doing is “loitering” to use the internet, then they aren’t doing anything wrong. It sounds like the problem is simply the number of people and the neighbors didn’t approve. In that case, the truly win/win option is to provide greater access points to free wifi so people don’t have to congregate in one small area. This outcome only hurts people.
Internet should already be a human right at this point. It’s a treasure trove of information that really catapults someone who has access to it ahead of someone who doesn’t, meaning internet access is definitely an index of (in)equality.
The town nearest to me has free wifi on its main street AFAIK. Can see it being very useful for homeless people.
Probably too tired of cleaning up human shit from around the library. This is SF we’re talking about. There’s literally a poop map
Do you think people who don’t have access to a bathroom are going to stop shitting?
You’ve gotta think that these people would rather use a toilet. Is the public toilet situation in SF really that bad?
Do you live in the states? I’ve never really been to a city where public restroom access is well advertised or even convenient. You’re expected to go inside places of business.
If you’re obviously homeless, ain’t no business letting you in there.
And yes, that’s a typical US tactic. Instead of public services, we give control over to private businesses. But it’s particularly bad in SF, worse than most cities.
It’s bad everywhere.
There are no public toilets in the vast majority of San Francisco.
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And before anyone makes a comment about the unhoused probably not paying taxes … neither do any of the children or retirees who use the service every single day of the year.
Okay so, this isn’t necessarily true. Homeless doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t work. You might be living in your car, or at a cheap motel, or you might be couchsurfing among friends or even strangers. You can be employed and homeless, meaning you’ll be paying income taxes. If you live in your vehicle, you’ll pay taxes on that too.
California also has a sales tax, so any purchase a homeless person makes, is taxed.
Homeless people aren’t leeches, they’re people dealt a poor hand in life, or down on their luck.
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Came super close to this without the car part. People have no idea what’s going on inside fellow humans and the “But for grace there go I” sentiment is right on the money.
It’s only getting turned off at night, not completely disallowing them from using it. I don’t see what the problem is. I can’t go and take out a book at 1am, I shouldn’t also be allowed to use their WiFi.
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It was shocking to me just how prevalent lack of broadband is. I moved in with my in-laws in norcal midway through the pandemic and the only internet service choices were a 600Kbps DSL line or Verizon mobile hotspots at 3-5Mbps (which is a massive blessing in comparison). I worked remotely and would frequently have to drive to Target or a coffee shop in town to download anything. They aren’t even in that rural an area - there were houses about half a mile away with gigabit cable. The cable company wanted nearly $70,000 to build out a line.
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Not exactly the same but similar… There’s 4 major providers who service my area, but only one of them extends down my block. So I can choose from DSL (which to be fair goes up to like 35 Mbps), but if I want higher, I’m vendor locked to Xfinity, who charges at least 2x the price of the local companies.
Ive asked several times, but they quote hundreds of thousands of dollars to trench fiber down my street, and it’s just not worth it.
Except, you know, there’s already fiber from Xfinity… They just wont share.
The physical cabling needs to be government owned and rented out to the companies, not exclusively owned by one single company. We’ll never have competitive pricing unless it’s nationalized infrastructure
Yeah same here. It’s either xfinity or satellite internet. Nothing else.
Why not? It cost them next to nothing to leave it on. It actually is more work to turn off and on the router every day. I don’t see why not being to check out books had to do with internet. Why does it have to be all or nothing?
I would guess all commercial routers and access points hae the option to automate something like that. So you only have to set it up once and it’s not really much work (unless something breaks)
Yeah but that requires even less effort to automate than manually turning it off and on. But the point is why put in the effort at all to do this? I mean rhetorically because I know everyone just wants to push the homeless to “anywhere but here”
Exactly this. A housed, or unhoused person, can’t use the library 24/7, so why should there be an exception for Wi-Fi at night?
The reason the library isn’t open 24/7 is that it’s expensive to keep paying people to staff it for so many more hours, plus those are hours you’d have to pay even more because working at night sucks. The WiFi access point doesn’t have those issues. You can leave it on and help people for almost no money.
Right, they don’t close the library at night because they have some moral objection to people checking out books at 1AM, it’s just a question of how to allocate their resources. I believe some public libraries, such as Salt Lake City, are experimenting with staying open 24/7.
because it costs $0 and unhoused people deserve access to education and resources at night same as those who are housed and have their own wifi?
this isnt about the wifi anyway, it’s an attempt to chase homeless people out of populated areas bc rich people are scared to be confronted with the human cost of their actions.
you’re fucking disgusting. i wish you the worst things.
Please don’t attack and insult each other. Give the other user the benefit of doubt and assume good faith even if it comes alongside ignorance. You’re free to ask questions to get them to clarify their point if you think they’re spreading hate speech but please wait for unambiguous intolerance before launching off on someone 💜
I agree with you. I also agree with her. At the same time, you are correct, it was unprovoked and this was the correct mod action (not that you need my approval or anything, I just an really happy to see mods step in on stuff like this).
Thank you for making Beehaw such a wonderful place <3 I have never enjoyed social media as much as I have in the past 2 days or so.
i’m like the barest thread away from homelessness. i don’t think it’s fair to tone police me down when people are expressing disgust about people in a position i’ll probably be in when i’m too old to pay my bills with unwanted subsistence sex work. when people are supporting measures designed to make life more hostile for people like that.
people who express disgust about unhoused people, and believe it’s okay to throttle their already super limited access to society, are lost causes. that’s violent instigation against people who can’t defend themselves and these attitudes get. people. killed.
it’s weird how even spaces on fedi require that you Politely and Respectfully Debate people who lead with genocidal intent. think about who was impolite or intolerant first. think about whether anything i said was “unprovoked.” anyway speaking of tolerance i have none for environments that aren’t safe for poor and unhoused folk and it’s, all things considered, unsurprising that a model based on reddit ended up being, predominantly, another That.
best of luck and goodbye i guess. you can have the genocide people or you can have their victims but you can’t have both.
I’m not sure if you’re already gone and I tried to make it as clear as possible that I didn’t think you were wrong. I understand this can read as tone policing, I was just asking for you to drop the very final part of your post because the other person didn’t directly attack you and could have been coming from a place of ignorance. It’s not on you to educate them either. To be clear I wasn’t going to take any negative action on you and I didn’t remove your post either because I believe both of those would be tone policing. But it’s also really hard to have a place where people feel welcome and think it’s nice while also explicitly being a safe space- in fact this is proof that for some people it might not work. My read on this person was that they were uninformed, not that they were necessarily attacking you. Their post consisted of nothing more than a question which comes from the ignorance and privilege of never being homeless. Yes, they might be an asshole worthy of scorn, I’m mostly just asking we confirm someone’s a Nazi before we start punching.
If you’re still around and want to talk in more depth about this let me know. I’m sorry I failed you 😔
I was with you until the end there. Really uncalled for to call someone disgusting and wish harm upon them because they have a different opinion than yours.
If you read the article, it’s not about rich people seeing homeless folks, it’s about vandalism and open drug use on the sidewalks. You don’t have to be rich or white to feel uneasy while stepping over bodies sprawled out on the sidewalk or walking by human waste and needles in the bushes the next morning.
Perhaps there’s a middle ground like keeping the Wi-Fi on but requiring login with a (free) library card.
if your opinion is, it’s correct to chase homeless people out of the few spaces they have access to, being told you’re an anti-social monster who doesn’t deserve anything good until you fix your revolting black heart, is getting off super easy.
opinions on how to best reorganize urban settings to promote access to parks and public transportation? i’ll be respectful. “opinions” that displace and kill people? they create complicity in murder and violence and you deserve to be absolutely and firmly cast out of any meaningful discussion.
if you’re uncomfortable with unhoused people existing, go do some activism. when enough of you murderous clowns come around and something gets done to house these people, great. we’re good. until then, shut the fuck up you monster, they hang out in populated spaces as means of survival, not to inconvenience dumb privileged slobs like you.
there’s no middle ground or space for debate here in ethical or pragmatic terms. your behaviour is disgusting and violent. it doesn’t matter that you’re too stupid or selfish to know or care.
Congrats, you’re one of the first lunatics I’ve seen since joining the Fediverse!
Just a reminder that Jello Biafra from the San Francisco group Dead Kennedys wrote a song called Kill The Poor, satirizing the heartless attitudes even back in 1980. He also ran for mayor of SF. Part of his platform was businessmen in downtown would have to wear clown suits. Would have been great if he had won.
hahahahah i know little bits about biafra’s delightful weirdness. i’d rather see a well-meaning bonkers ass joke mayor than a serious one who gets a bunch of people killed on purpose
Not the person you are replying to, but that’s really uncalled for. It’s a difference of opinion and none of us are in the position of decision making for the San Francisco Public Library.
A better policy would be for the city to provide universal Wi-Fi access across the city, instead of putting the burden on one public entity in one part of the city.
To be fair, several of these responses have been pretty disgusting in their disregard for homeless people. Also, why is it “unhoused” now and not “homeless”. Seems like the semantics are something George Carlin would have fun with.
what people call you and how you’re referred to affects how you’re treated, directly. this is why propaganda works. i’d like to think carlin would understand that fucking around with marginalized groups trying to better their perception and situation is probably not super cool, and that it’d be much more chill to go after the powerful assholes doing the marginalizing. but who knows.
the word homeless has stigma attached thanks to movies, tv, politicians, news. unhoused drops alot of that stigma. removing that stigma is important in the interest of allowing people to feel empathy for those affected rather than fear. i still slip every now and again but the rationale makes sense and i’m trying to do better.
I’m guessing you’ve never seen the bit where Carlin goes from Shell Shocked -> Battle Fatigued -> Operational Exhaustion -> Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. The whole thing about changing these terms is it tends to undermine the seriousness of the issues being discussed. And the marginalized people that are effected.
I’m not sure what their preferred would be. Homeless, unsheltered, unhoused, I guess it would be important to find out from them. Homeless might be a misnomer as some of them may find that anywhere is their home? Not sure, not my space
I’ve been homeless. We didn’t give a fuck. Call us whatever as long as it’s not insulting.
you could check out an ebook using their services if you had access to wifi
getting a “protect my property value” vibes from this policy. Governing systems should focus first on lifting up our most vulnerable, and people selling houses just isnt it.
Yeah - this is a huge dick move
Yeah, what the fuck are we paying taxes for if not to help those who aren’t or can’t?
Yes, why provide free internet access to check their email and maybe get a reply to their job applications? Better keep them out of work /s
There are so many problems with this.
Far too many homeless people, there is so much wealth in this nation, there is no reason we cannot provide ample shelter. This probably is going to continue to become worse with the disproportionate wealth distribution and the continual increase in use or automation and AI.
Additionally, we should have broader access to wifi, specifically for those who are homeless and need access to online resources, so they can eventually no longer be homeless. Seems like a great federal program opportunity, if we actually want people to be able to recover from being homeless. No one is going to become homeless or stay homeless because of the badass government subsidized wifi.
This seems incredibly self perpetuating on the cities behalf. It’s like making places uncomfortable to sleep upon… Why not invest that money into someplace people can goto sleep and get the assistance they need to exist in society.
Yeah the treatment of the homeless is crazy as hell to me, why kick someone when they’re down? You try finding a job when you can’t find a good place to sleep, a decent place to take shelter from rain or heat, restricted access to the internet and restaurants refusing to give you leftovers. Shit sucks. It was hard enough to find my next job after I got laid off and I fortunately had a month off expenses saved. Imagine if it took me just a little bit longer to find a job and that I didn’t have any friends with room in their house. I would be homeless.
I agree internet, shelter, food and basic medical need to be considered a human right, if you want a productive society wouldn’t you want to help the people getting left before so they can contribute?
Over/under on how many years out we are from the hunger games?
The problem unhoused people face is not nighttime library access it’s housing. We all know that the reason they’re shutting their wifi off at night is because while for some homeless people this wifi is a lifeline, for some others it’s where they get their porn or where they hang out to do drugs and browse the internet. But the fundamental problem remains the same, because they have no where to go home to, whether someone is fapping or connecting with helpful resources, it’s all done in public.
they’re doing it because rich people are scared of unhoused people and want them to disappear or die. no wifi means unhoused people wont hang out around the library means rich people in the area will see fewer unhoused people
it’s revolting and it’s violent. people die when homeless people get bullied out of spaces and harassed by cops.
If you think turning off the wifi is going to stop people from masturbating…
I kind of took it the other way. If they think because I have a roof over my head I’m not watching porn and doing drugs, they would be very mistaken.
That’s exactly how I meant it! Lots of people watch porn and do drugs, it’s not a problem to watch porn in your own house. That’s why I’m saying the problem is housing. The solution isn’t allow people to watch porn and do drugs in public, it’s housing so they can do it in private like normal people.
I just want to say Mission Local is pretty freakin cool for being one of the last remaining newspapers that does their own independent journalism.
Not quite to aggressive architecture levels of dickishness, but still.
it’s the exact same thing imo :(
Our local library, which is usually really great, started playing loud classical music at the entrance after hours to shoo away the unhoused. I’m glad they stopped doing that after a couple months; that’s lowered my usually-high opinion of them.
What crime is being committed while unhoused folks are online? Cybercrime? Are they pretending to be Nigerian princes?
Read the article, the problem isn’t their online activities but the wifi attracting them to cluster outside the library building. The residents don’t want the homeless hanging around outside the library and turning off the wifi would reduce their incentive to be there.
Is existing outside of the library a crime?
Maybe instead of taking things away, we should be providing tax funded public wifi in more places. The internet isn’t a luxury anymore, and those without homes still have a right to access it (yeah even at night).
brilliant. it’s practically a utility at this point; i hate going places and seeing weird shitty scam ‘freeATTwifi’ everywhere. public internet now.
Sure, but that’s not the responsibility of the library in question. This article is great, an obvious victim and an obvious villain for easy consumption and allegiance, but there’s definitely more to the story. If the homeless are making the lives of the library staff a living hell then I don’t see a problem with this honestly.
The residents don’t want the homeless hanging around outside the library and turning off the wifi would reduce their incentive to be there.
i mean bluntly, sucks to be them? but get over it. homeless people are people too! the obvious solution is to provide them with social services first if this is the objection (which, to be clear, it generally isn’t–it’s that homeless people exist and aren’t out of mind)
The actions of the library are cowardly and the justifications of the residents in the area are abhorrent. God forbid we do something to help those in need, let’s just push them out of sight instead.
classic nimby bs. what they dont realize of course is that getting rid of wifi isnt gonna stop them from congregating, theyll just congregate elsewhere
Which is the point. That’s a win for the NIMBYs who got this policy enacted. It’s literally no longer in their backyard.
For all those times I was going to commit a crime, but the WiFi was out.
nothing drives me more insane than artificial restrictions placed on digital technology that could otherwise be infinitely helpful
Sounds like a great place to take a piss
absolutely no reason to do this other than to make the lives of people without housing harder.
But how are they going to look for jobs at night now?
They can do it at the library during the day, I guess.
