From a casual outside (the US) observer it just seems like it’s the price that gets paid in a two party state where there are apparently no centrists. Americans give me the impression that it’s either team Red or team Blue. Does anybody ever say: “I like a bit of this… but I also like a bit of that.”?
Yes, there are some who say that. They get agreed with in person, ignored at the local party/voting level, scoffed at by media, screamed at in general on the internet, and scolded on places like lemmy or reddit (if not screamed at). There are policies that I like that for some reason have to be lumped in with policies I detest no matter which party I look at. One party (fucking GOP) is way worse than the other, but try to have a rational discussion with anonymous or outside-of-your-social-circle people, and any criticisms of a party are like blaspheming their god.
try to have a rational discussion with anonymous or outside-of-your-social-circle people, and any criticisms of a party are like blaspheming their god.
That’s because of the nature of anonymous communication. It is literally pointless to try to convince individual people online. They rarely tell you their underlying motivations, and many times reveal that they know nothing about the subject.
Yeah. Succinctly put. I hope things improve, or at least change, at some stage; but as I said in another reply I don’t think the short term prognosis looks too healthy. Best of luck to you.
Also doesn’t help that the USA political spectrum consists of “right” and “far right” so while they may call it “left” it’s only left compared to the far right.
This is something I wish that more people understood. In almost any other democracy in the world, Bernie Sanders is only slightly left of center. On a global scale, US Democrats are a center-right party and US Republicans are a far-right party. There are no successful left-wing politicians in the United States.
Good point. The idea that Bernie Sanders (?) is seen as ultra left wing is incredible to me. Americans would probably spontaneously combust if they got to read some of the left of centre manifestos from relatively normal European parties.
No, the RiNOs were intentionally and specifically hunted to extinction through shame and exclusion. That’s why the name, “Republican in Name Only,” is applied those who don’t embrace the party’s wildest platforms.
Damn. I knew about elephants and donkeys but now I’ve got to read up on rhinos… all jokes aside it looks like polarisation is the problem - which is the two party problem. It must be so frustrating to have views you can’t sensibly talk about objectively with the majority of your peers.
For as long as people like you exist there’s some hope… but I do fear ‘24 won’t be a year of political reconciliation. Perhaps things must get even worse before they improve? Good luck whatever happens.
I think the cops are useless at best and evil at worst and im pro gun/pro CC, I find that our model of capitalism has failed but I’d rather we revert to the political economic ideas of Henry George rather than Karl Marx. Not that either is possible without violent overhaul most likely. Even just a reframing of capitalism to correct for John Adams era economic fallacies would face nigh impossible resistance from those who have already taken most of the pie.
So yeah, we exist. It’s just that we tend to get crowded out due to not falling in line with either ideology. I’ve been called everything from RINO to fascist.
I understand someone’s economic views would necessarily push them to one side or the other but what I’ve never understood is why gun ownership is so political in the US. From where I am it just seems sad that there’s people in a first world democracy that “need” to be armed just to go out and buy an ice cream. It blows my mind that more isn’t done by all sides (political, manufacturing and citizens) to lower the body count. Any society where members of the public are indiscriminately gunning each other down surely has a big problem. I have zero problems with fire arms - just their application in the US seems a bit fucked. But, like you said about the police, if your biggest gun-toting gang are that trigger happy and indiscriminate then I can’t really blame everyone else packing as a result. Kind of a chicken and egg situation. Hope it works out for you all one day.
No, Im not some “hurr durr both sides are equal” moron. Both sides do have issues, but they’re not equal. The left is on the correct side socially but they often have an incredibly naive view of how the world functions, often operating on “why can’t we all just get along and be rich together?” Levels of fantasy.
However, the US right is socially authoritarian and wants to oppress anyone who doesn’t fit a christo-fascist perspective, and their economic viewpoint is messed up due to conflation of where wages are derived from. So they fail both sides of the coin whereas progressives only fail on economics.
If I HAD to take one of two sides I’m going left, because I refuse to abide by people who hate those that are different, and I have a lot of gay and trans friends. However I don’t agree with the lemming philosophy of Auth-Left being the solution to our problems.
Is it really “socialism” if I think the tax burden should fall on the land owners exclusively and the laborers should derive the larger portion of their labor value than the capitalist that simply made their work more efficient with their capital? Due to wages driving from labor value increasing capital?
We likely wouldn’t even need social safety nets if the capitalists weren’t taking the largest cut on the pretense that wages derive from capital, and the market wasn’t being driven by those with excess wealth.
From a casual outside (the US) observer it just seems like it’s the price that gets paid in a two party state where there are apparently no centrists. Americans give me the impression that it’s either team Red or team Blue. Does anybody ever say: “I like a bit of this… but I also like a bit of that.”?
Yes, there are some who say that. They get agreed with in person, ignored at the local party/voting level, scoffed at by media, screamed at in general on the internet, and scolded on places like lemmy or reddit (if not screamed at). There are policies that I like that for some reason have to be lumped in with policies I detest no matter which party I look at. One party (fucking GOP) is way worse than the other, but try to have a rational discussion with anonymous or outside-of-your-social-circle people, and any criticisms of a party are like blaspheming their god.
That’s because of the nature of anonymous communication. It is literally pointless to try to convince individual people online. They rarely tell you their underlying motivations, and many times reveal that they know nothing about the subject.
Yeah. Succinctly put. I hope things improve, or at least change, at some stage; but as I said in another reply I don’t think the short term prognosis looks too healthy. Best of luck to you.
Also doesn’t help that the USA political spectrum consists of “right” and “far right” so while they may call it “left” it’s only left compared to the far right.
This is something I wish that more people understood. In almost any other democracy in the world, Bernie Sanders is only slightly left of center. On a global scale, US Democrats are a center-right party and US Republicans are a far-right party. There are no successful left-wing politicians in the United States.
Good point. The idea that Bernie Sanders (?) is seen as ultra left wing is incredible to me. Americans would probably spontaneously combust if they got to read some of the left of centre manifestos from relatively normal European parties.
No, the RiNOs were intentionally and specifically hunted to extinction through shame and exclusion. That’s why the name, “Republican in Name Only,” is applied those who don’t embrace the party’s wildest platforms.
Damn. I knew about elephants and donkeys but now I’ve got to read up on rhinos… all jokes aside it looks like polarisation is the problem - which is the two party problem. It must be so frustrating to have views you can’t sensibly talk about objectively with the majority of your peers.
It is wildly annoying. If you want to get the details, check out the book “What’s the matter with Kansas” for a quick history.
Thanks, my friend. I shall take a look at that.
Does that mean Log Cabin Republicans are RiNOs? Or just idiots?
There are plenty of us. The problem is the two party state. Any independent or centrist candidate is going to get drowned out.
For as long as people like you exist there’s some hope… but I do fear ‘24 won’t be a year of political reconciliation. Perhaps things must get even worse before they improve? Good luck whatever happens.
I think the cops are useless at best and evil at worst and im pro gun/pro CC, I find that our model of capitalism has failed but I’d rather we revert to the political economic ideas of Henry George rather than Karl Marx. Not that either is possible without violent overhaul most likely. Even just a reframing of capitalism to correct for John Adams era economic fallacies would face nigh impossible resistance from those who have already taken most of the pie.
So yeah, we exist. It’s just that we tend to get crowded out due to not falling in line with either ideology. I’ve been called everything from RINO to fascist.
I understand someone’s economic views would necessarily push them to one side or the other but what I’ve never understood is why gun ownership is so political in the US. From where I am it just seems sad that there’s people in a first world democracy that “need” to be armed just to go out and buy an ice cream. It blows my mind that more isn’t done by all sides (political, manufacturing and citizens) to lower the body count. Any society where members of the public are indiscriminately gunning each other down surely has a big problem. I have zero problems with fire arms - just their application in the US seems a bit fucked. But, like you said about the police, if your biggest gun-toting gang are that trigger happy and indiscriminate then I can’t really blame everyone else packing as a result. Kind of a chicken and egg situation. Hope it works out for you all one day.
Would you call yourself an Enlightened Centrist?
No, Im not some “hurr durr both sides are equal” moron. Both sides do have issues, but they’re not equal. The left is on the correct side socially but they often have an incredibly naive view of how the world functions, often operating on “why can’t we all just get along and be rich together?” Levels of fantasy.
However, the US right is socially authoritarian and wants to oppress anyone who doesn’t fit a christo-fascist perspective, and their economic viewpoint is messed up due to conflation of where wages are derived from. So they fail both sides of the coin whereas progressives only fail on economics.
If I HAD to take one of two sides I’m going left, because I refuse to abide by people who hate those that are different, and I have a lot of gay and trans friends. However I don’t agree with the lemming philosophy of Auth-Left being the solution to our problems.
Sounds like Socialist Libertarianism.
Is it really “socialism” if I think the tax burden should fall on the land owners exclusively and the laborers should derive the larger portion of their labor value than the capitalist that simply made their work more efficient with their capital? Due to wages driving from labor value increasing capital?
We likely wouldn’t even need social safety nets if the capitalists weren’t taking the largest cut on the pretense that wages derive from capital, and the market wasn’t being driven by those with excess wealth.