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- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.zip
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At some point in the last two years I completely stopped using Google search in browser and just use Google maps to find businesses or ddg for searches. Actual Google search just has too many sponsored or promotional links
I just searched local restaurants near me and tried to sort by distance and the first option was 800 miles away, the second was 600 miles away. It’s not just Google search getting worse.
Google has really been dropping the ball a lot more publicly lately
Was over for me when I opt out out of some of their data tracking shit and they started captcha’ing me everytime I browsed there. Like wtf Google what are you anymore? Sounds dumb but them changing the banner every week was the start of the end.
Changing the banner for like holidays and anniversaries of things isn’t an issue for me IMO
But yeah all their tracking shit that you can’t opt out of is a big problem and a big part of why I’m pulling away from Google as much as I can
Not saying it was an issue just was a significant change in how they did things.
Here’s the thing, Google has changed. Over time, they’ve restructured themselves, initially purposefully, but now they’re facing the consequences of that.
Google genuinely does still have amazing programmers and engineers.
The trouble is that their expertise is in crafting systems that harvest personal information; expertise in other areas has been left to rot because there’s no point in improving them.
Gmail is already entrenched, as is search, YouTube, maps, android, etc.
They aren’t going to attract a significant amount more customers, so their main avenue for continued growth has been to become better at harvesting and processing data.
For a while that was fine, but now that this expertise has been lost, Google can’t make good products. They don’t have the ability to do so, it’s not that they don’t want people to use their software and think “wow this is actually pretty great”, it’s that they genuinely can’t do it anymore. Not unless the product you want is a telemetry system, in which case I doubt you’ll find anybody that can do such a stellar job.
It’s a part of why Google starts then kills so many projects. They want to expand to collect more data, but they don’t have the ability to create good services anymore, so it just ends up being an advanced data collector with a sub-par app/website on top of it. The company just isn’t structured to make things in any other way.
they are probably putting sponsored results above the legit stuff.
didnt someone get caught recently doing that?
Pretty soon the internet will be almost completely ruined. Within a few years. AI bots will have spammed everything. Searches and web pages will be entirely faked bs. Reddit and Lemmy will have enough ai Bots commenting and pushing agendas/products that no one will have a clue who’s a real person. Information that’s true will be almost impossible to verify online.
In short, if you think the web has gotten bad now, you ain’t seen nothin yet.
I agree with the sentiment, but lack of AI has not stopped SEO hacking in the past. Sure it will help them go farther, but there are already tons of garbage websites hacking the top 1-5 results of any search
In the past I remember it made using search engines less rewarding than using web directories, web rings, asking people on forums etc. That was slower, but gave you results (and acquaintances). While using search meant looking through dozens of pages of search results, mainly SEO.
The top results pages, sure. I belive it’s going to take over the top 500. Along with flooding places like lemmy and reddit.
I am more optimistic on that one. AI provides a pretty clear way out of this, since it allows you to automatically detect the bullshit. Meaning either the bullshit has to raise so much in quality that it is indistinguishable from good content, in which case it would not be bullshit anymore, or it will get filtered. AI can also transform bad websites into good ones, like a super-powered ReaderMode, AdBlock and more all rolled into one, so a lot of the “lets plaster everything with ads” will lose effectiveness.
The problem over the last decade was that Google completely lost interest in being a search engine, they are just an ad company and as long as search leads you to more ads, they are quite happy. So the user experience went down the toilet.
The real problem with AI is that it will remove the incentive for the authors. Content producers want to get paid, with AI you can just extract the information from an article without ever viewing the article or the ads around it.
I think it’s just a new world for spam.
At some point, probably soon, AI content will generate so much data it becomes untenable to store all the scraped data.
We’ll also reach a point where it becomes much more costly to parse the data for AI spam+trustworthiness+topics. If you need LLMs just to filter spam, that is a large step up in costs and infrastructure vs current methods.
When that happens what happens to search? The quality will have to degrade or the margins will drop off sharply.
They have already been trying to use ai to combat and identify ai in college and highschool papers. So far it’s been severely ineffective. AI has gotten pretty good at writing out a sentence or two that looks like it’s real. If ai improves enough I doubt they’ll be much of a way to identify it all.
It’s not about identifying AI or even spam, but about extracting useful information. Are the claims made in a source backed by other sources? Do they violate information from trusted sources? That’s all stuff that an AI can reason about and then discard the source as junk or condense it down to the useful information in it.
Basically you completely skip browsing the Web yourself and just use the AI to find you what you want. Think of it like some IMDB or Wikipedia, but covering everything and written and curated by AI. When the AI doesn’t already know some fact, it goes crawling the Web and finding it out for you, expanding its knowledge base in the process.
Or see the ship computer from StarTrek, you don’t see the people there browsing the Web, you see them getting data in exactly the format they need and they can reformat and filter it as needed.
At the moment there are still some technical hurdles, the AI systems we have are all still a little to stupid for this. But that seems to be the direction we are heading, things like summarizer bots already do a pretty good job and ChatGPT is reasonably good at answering basic questions and reformatting it the way you need it. Only a matter of time until it gets good enough that you couldn’t do a better job yourself.
You’re looking at it in a flawed manner. AI has already been making up sources and names to state things as facts. If there’s a hundred websites for claiming the earth is flat and you ask an ai if the earth is flat, it may tell you it is flat and source those websites. It’s already been happening. Then imagine more opinionated things than hard observable scientific facts. Imagine a government using AI to shape opinion and claim there was no form of insurrection on Jan 6th. Thousands of websites and comments could quickly be fabricated to confirm that it was all made up. Burying the truth into obscurity.
You have plenty of literature that can act as ground truth. This is not a terribly hard problem to solve, it just requires actually focusing on it. Which so far simply hasn’t been done. ChatGPT is just the first “look, this can generate text”. It was never meant to do anything useful by itself or stick to the truth. That all still has to be developed. ChatGPT simply demonstrates that LLM can process natural language really well. It’s the first step in this, not the last.
Sounds like you’re arguing against yourself, now.
I think this is part of why Google holds on to youtube despite it not making them money. Without that Google would just be the map and email company. They would completely lose the appearance of “owning” any part of the internet.
“Notably, Google, Bing, and DuckDuckGo all have the same problems, and in many cases, Google performed better than Bing and DuckDuckGo by the researchers’ measures.”
Click bait headline. I see they’re good at SEO themselves.
Yeah, DDG skips all the sponsored links but I generally find what I’m looking for faster on Google if I just skip half the page rather than trying to find the right incantation to bring up what I’m looking for on DDG.
I’ve tried, many times over the years, to use DDG and you are 100% spot-on. I find it damn-near impossible to find what I need without some deep voodoo magic to somehow craft the perfect query. It’s been a decade+ since I’ve gone to page 2 of a Google search. Using DDG I can be 3 or 4 pages deep before maybe finding the answer. There is SOOO much irrelevant stuff to filter through.
It sucks, I don’t want to use Google, but there doesn’t seem to be a great alternative.
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I swear I’m going to capture screenshots of 2-3 dozen searches across DDG & Google, as well as hopefully Bing, Startpage… SearXNG…
b/c DDG is doodoo while corporate overlord Google is great with Ublock Origin.
Faithfully perform every search on DDG first in the hopes I can keep the data out of Google’s hands! But
!gout half the time.—
Anybody know of a site, app, or TamperMonkey script that’ll search multiple search engines side-by-side?
In the meantime, one example w/a direct quote from deep inside a Harry Potter book:
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You know DDG is just a wrapper around Bing right? No point comparing the two.
Not entirely true, they have their own index they use to augment/modify the results with. Like the paper linked in this very post shows, actually.
Works on SearX
Honestly it’s been a yearish since I’ve tried and my memory is shit so I don’t have any specific examples I can give now. In general though the bulk of my searches involve:
- A local company I need for xyz or a specific type of restaurant
- Issues/repairs for a specific make/model/year car (I do lots of my own work)
- Various homelab related things (docker services for xyz)
- Details about a movie or TV show (sometimes a specific episode)
- Prices for products and where I can get them (trying to de-Amazon)
- How to fix xyz in my home
I’m sure there are more, but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Tbh using DDG is more like using old (and I mean old) Google. Googling things used to be a skill people had. You googled things for other people because they had no idea how to get good results. That’s exactly how DDG is. It takes rewiring your brain to use it, and I’ve been using it for a year now.
I do go to Google sometimes. Specifically for opening hours in stores, and when I’m trying to look for products from smaller online stores I do not yet know of, which takes me to page 3-4 of Google but would’ve taken me far longer on DDG.
The country switch on DDG is a godsend because you can manipulate searches with it and get some really specific results if you know what you’re doing. It’s the learning curve that makes DDG worse if you just want to find something without having to teach yourself to search. Which is definitely a point to Google, but if you want a very specific result it’s better to battle that learning curve.
I should also add that I’m not really anti Google in any way. I just stopped finding what I was looking for about 70% of the time, and instead found products and shit to consume. It’s very useful for that stuff, but I never find obscure tech solutions with Google.
All true. DDG is my default search engine now. Yeah. I use others often enough, Google, Bing, searXNG…but I find that if I can’t find it relatively easily on DDG it means I’m going to have to sift through a bunch of SEO sites and sponsored links on Google to find it. It won’t be much easier. One of the most frustrating thing about Google is the “fuck you” they’ve given to search modifiers. The “-“ and quotes are pretty much meaningless. For instance one can enter an error code from a program, perfectly quoted, and Google will tell you there aren’t any good search results. BS. They just can’t figure out how to jam ads into what you’re looking for or something. Bing or DDG will return what you need, it might just be on page 2.
Google really has failed as a search engine.
I find that DDG is terrible at finding anything regionally specific, probably because I’m not in the US. I always get a shitload of US hits and usually some German hits if I try to specify location…neither are useful to me.
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I mean, kagi is great. I too got frustrated with the shittiness of DDG and others like ecosia. Paying for a search engine sounds crazy but I’m not going back. Google’s results are absolutely terrible compared to kagi so 🤷♀️
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!sp is something like ddg for bing, but it is based on google
just use a
!gif you don’t get what you want the first time on ddg and you’ll still get a proxied google search result.AFAIK !g on DDG doesn’t proxy anything.
It does on SearXNG
nothing gets proxied, it’s just like searching directly on Google.
Would you be able to give an example of what you couldn’t find with DDG that was simpler to find with the help of Google? Sounds interesting to me, as I use DDG pretty much exclusively.
I don’t remember the specific case, most of the things I Google are local businesses. I find for local businesses Google is a top tier resource. Google can tell me how busy a business is right now, or if they’re closed because of the weather. I often have to do some digging to find the business’ page on DDG, if they have one. If I’m looking for a local contractor, like a water heater or drywall repair guy, the ads aren’t even that intrusive, they’re literally what I’m looking for. On DDG, I’ve got to do some clicking to find a contractor and then all the reviews are on Yelp. General contractors will have a list sometimes on DDG, but it’s not all that helpful, I’ve never seen a phone number without clicking once or twice.
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But on the flipside, if that data were publically owned and anonymized I’d genuinely want that kept. Since the feature is super useful. Same with busses and so on.
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I honestly think there’s something wrong with Google’s individual customization. They’re leaning in a little too hard on things you’re likely to be searching for rather than what you’re actually searching for.
DDG gives me better results for random searches on things I’m not usually looking for. When I was looking for Godot exercises yesterday every hit on DuckDuckGo for ages was just exactly what I wanted. When I went over to search Google there was a lot of more varied topics. Now, hands down if I need what time a certain store closes at a certain location Google will give me exactly what I’m looking for. Likewise if I need to know what’s near something else Google is absolutely superior to DDG. Google’s image search is also far more accurate and useful.
But then I come back and look for a medical condition for my cat that I’ve never heard of before, You passed by the sponsors and they’ve got a couple of random pages about it maybe a Reddit article or two that’s now blocked, but it quickly devolves to adjacent searches.
But if I go and search for any of my usual suspects, The rankings come back pretty decent.
I’ve run into that, I recently started playing The Finals (which I recommend), and Google searches have a hard time not changing my searches to American football, even if I put “video game” in the search
Yeah, the paper shows a startling lead for Google, more than I would have expected.
I try to swap to DDG every so often (usually once a year, giving it about a month), but every time search ends up being frustrating enough so I don’t stick around. Nevermind their boneheaded decision of using Apple Maps over something that actually wants to be useful like OpenStreetMap. But what I didn’t expect was just how big the difference between the two is when analyzed, damn.
This is what happens when everyone does ‘SEO,’
It really seems like nowadays that internet search is just people trying to game the system for clicks. But it has made everything superficial and fake. Not to mention, utterly useless.
I don’t know what the solution is really. It’s easy to say ‘dont do SEO’ but people will just find some way to game that system too. It was great when Reddit wasn’t complete shit, because the subreddits dedicated to a particular topic had great insights into whatever topic you wanted to know about. But now that it’s a cesspool, and Lemmy is tiny in comparison, id say get used to the Internet being like this for a while.
IMO It’s not just optimization or monetization. It’s the abandonment of the open internet (blogs, forums, etc) in favor of walled garden apps that are closed off and operate like a black box. SEO itself is just metadata and helps find things during search nothing malicious about it, but the problem is due to web abandonment, the things there are to find are so low effort you stick to big tent apps like reddit instead of sifting through blog spam
I agree. So much of the web now functionally happens on the socials which are not indexed/accessible to crawlers.
Especially if you somehow tryout some popular program, for example wordpress. The most search results are just different best of xy plugins lists. Even if you search for issues. Its like you are suddenly in a whole different bubble of the internet and everything is broken.
Lemmy is tiny in comparison
Try asking Lemmy a question. I was fiddling with FF earlier and thought “I wonder what the best FF addons are atm”. Instead of Googling and getting a bunch of 3-10yo irrelevant blog posts I just posted in Ask Lemmy for peoples opinions. Lemmy may be small, but people like helping. Not only do you get your answer but you help Lemmy grow!
It’s a cliche but it’s perfect right now - Lemmy is at the perfect moment for you to “be the change you want to see in the world”
What I find is that Google is now still better for what I usually search (a mix of programming, gaming and random factoids) compared to Bing or DDG, but no longer by such a wide margin as it used to.
Best as I can tell, it’s because in the past Google constantly tweaked the parameters of their scrapers and models, in turn leading to SEO constantly having to re- and re-optimize, and making it difficult to artificially push your spam and crap content high. They must have stopped doing this, leading to this steady rise of generated spammy content, and now Google feels a lot like other search engines in that i have to very actively discard 80%+ of the results including the whole first page.
(edit)
I recommend reading the actual paper. Interesting though Google has gotten worse, it’s results are still massively superior to the competition. 9% spam compared to 31% for DDG and 23% for Bing. Damn. That’s still a huge difference, shit as nearly-10%-spam is. I would however say its increased percentage of social media results (11% vs 6% respectively 5%) is bad, but eh, I guess there are users to genuinely want to see those results. 🤷Removed by mod
No but it’s my gut feeling, and it matches with the temporal progress in the paper. Cannot truly know of course, but it’s what I would suspect.
The converse is that SEO spam has become better at the game than google, despite google’s best efforts. It’s a less comfortable thought because how could a bunch of unorganized distributed actors out compete the one of the world’s richest company at their bread and butter game. The alternative is that one of the world’s richest companies gave up playing their bread and butter game.
gave up playing their bread and butter game
Search was never Google’s money maker, that was AdWords. Search was merely the tool they used to get users in the door and exposed to AdWords, where they made their money. AdWords raked in ~100M/day in the early 2010s iirc.
The SEO community is not disorganized, they have conferences, write books, communicate with each other and work together. It’s a very organized community.
What’s changed is a few years ago Google stopped engaging with that community and changed from a “how can we actually work together” to an adversarial relationship.
This article is actually a great read on the topic:
https://www.theverge.com/features/23931789/seo-search-engine-optimization-experts-google-results
Now that there’s no dialogue, the spammers don’t need to care about anything but increasing reach while not getting banned.
Just to add to that, on my main job as a web developer, we had contracted to an SEO company some years ago, and they were constantly in communication with Google. One of our web sites had done something Google didn’t like in the past, and Google flagged that and it was killing its position in the search rankings. Google themselves won’t tell you much more than that, but the SEO group was able to figure out what it was and get Google to give us a clean pass.
Used to be that way. Just from personal observation, I concur with the poster above that this relationship has broken down and it’s worse for everyone.
Per your edit, there might be a blind spot in the study. Consider when you’ve searched for a recipe, and the top result you find always starts with "My cousins showed up one day and I had to scramble to make something . . . ". A big story you don’t care about before you can get to what you want. That’s happening because Google is giving those kind of recipe posts a higher rank. Ironically, adding this human story to the post is there for the sake of robots, not people.
I wouldn’t classify posts like that as spam, exactly. I still find the recipe I want. But they do make the experience worse.
Amazon’s no longer any good at shipping, and Google’s no longer any good at searching. What a terrible year to be a tech nerd.
Amazon’s not good at shipping?
I don’t like a lot of their business practices, but holy shit do they get stuff to my house fast and reliably. Most of the time, same or next day.
Yeah same, they’re absolutely unmatched, and by a huge margin. Faster, cheaper, and more consistently arriving both on time and undamaged.
I hate them. They do however easily outperform the competition, that’s sadly also something I have to acknowledge.
I think the key is not good at shipping compared to themselves in the past. Same with Google.
They’re still better than the alternatives, but they’ve gotten much worse in quality all around, and they squeezed out competitors years ago so there’s no viable alternatives that aren’t WAY worse.
It’s anecdotal, but for me they’ve been better than ever over the last year.
Agreed about the competitor issue, although I don’t recall any competitor who was even close or looked like on the path to become close.
I tried ordering something from Newegg the other day just to avoid using Amazon. I didn’t need it right away, but then saw ETA was 2 weeks. From Amazon it was next-day (so I could do the thing I wanted to do that weekend). Cancelled the Newegg order.
I don’t know how we get a viable competitor on that front, but damn, there is no one that seems close on the logistical front.
I’m hoping some antitrust effort will lead to Amazon being forced to open up its warehouses/shipping to other retailers, I guess.
Nah last several times I ordered, I saw one date expected before I order. The next day the expected date changes and it takes a week to turn up. They’ve been trash for a while.
Sounds like maybe some areas are a lot better than others, and I happen to live in one of the good ones maybe
That’s the exact reason I discontinued prime. The shipping rarely was on time. I dropped prime and didn’t notice a change in shipping time. They advertise to you in hopes you’ll forget or something and I’m sure a fair amount of people do.
That’s because of their contracts with couriers which is undermining employee and road safety
Yes. But it’s always been like that. The shipping quality hasn’t declined, therefore “Amazon is no longer good at shipping” makes no sense. Of all the things to complain about Amazon, that’s not it.
don’t forget about every single device collecting as much information as possible.
It’s been that way for quite some time.
They quit innovating so what tech?
It’s kind of shocking how bad it has gotten. I never thought SEO would win in the end, but they did and now Google is fairly useless. Like if AI doesn’t work out long-term what are they left with? A bunch of inferior products people don’t trust anymore or have better/comparable alternatives. GCP sucks compared to AWS and Azure, Android has more freedom than iOS but feels developmentally behind on most fronts in terms of end user experience. Google Search is now about even with Bing and otherwise privacy focused Search Engines have improved to the point of being viable for most cases. Gmail has let in more spam than ever and there’s a lot of alternatives now as well with bo meaningful improvements coming to it. Maps is still probably the market leader there, but more competition in this space too. Google harvests your data to an extreme amount and consumers are privacy aware than previous generations which adds to the distrust of a target demographic. Lastly Youtube is making the user experience worse with every update. While there is no real alternative right now given the overhead required, there is at least a desire for a good alternative should one ever come about.
Feels like Google is losing on every front and bet the farm that AI will save them. We’ll see I guess.
Android has more freedom than iOS but feels developmentally behind on most fronts in terms of end user experience
That’s the one point I strongly disagree with you: Android, for all it’s flaws, has free and open source spin-offs (LineageOS, for one), that are the ONLY chance you have as an end user to own your phone / privacy (barring hardware backdoors or installing stupid apps)
Lineage is cool. It’s an edge case though, and while relevant for folks on Lemmy, it is probably less than 1% of Android users and not really a selling point for the argument that Google is going in the right direction, main point of the post. I do love the project and ran it as my daily for several years, hope it gets more traction.
It’s not a selling point for google at all, I was just mentioning it to state that the code base of Android is also the base for the only viable free phone OS for now. postmarketOS is getting there, but too slow and with too little support. SailfishOS was cool until it got taken over (financed) mostly by the fascist government of Moscovia.
I agree with most, but android has better UI than IOS by a mile. And I don’t really see a maps competitor coming close, maybe Apple maps.
Yeah, I agree about Android. I’d never switch to ios, and Android is very polished these days.
tell us you’ve never used Android without telling is you’ve never used Android lmao.
Apple’s UI looks better but Android feels better, maybe they’re talking about user experience
I agree with that - iOS looks good but Android is actually more functional to get stuff done in. Though, caveat being whose Android - some vendor customizations are horrifying
Literally used it for a decade plus until it got so shitty I had to switch.
both have become extremely shitty and bloated, in my personal pov
postmarketos ftw
sure bro.
Lol what do you want, proof? Like what is this middle school comeback you’ve formulated?
🫠
It doesn’t feel like there’s any real alternative to Google search. Most of the privacy based search websites are really just Google or Bing on the backend. The only other index is Yandex the Russian one, which, yeah. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but the internet search space is approaching peak enshittification, and it doesn’t look like anyone is stepping up to meaningfully change anything. No private companies seem willing to actually square up with Google, considering the investment it would take. Honestly I don’t see things getting better anytime soon. This is just another symptom of the erosion of the social contract in the US and the rampant greed that’s driving it. Nothing we can do can’t be enshittified by bad actors in this environment. Not to be too US centric, most of the big tech companies are based here so our garbage culture fucks over everyone.
Brave has their own index as well. And if you want Google results in not-enshittified, try Kagi.
That aside, the biggest frustrating in the search space is the complete lack of innovation. All those search engines and their alternatives do the same thing and look the same. There haven’t been new features or new sources of information in about a decade. The whole space has been extremely stagnant.
The only new thing we got recently was ChatGPT, but as search engine replacement it really doesn’t cut it right now, it can enter Wikipedia-style general knowledge question ok’ish, but completely falls apart on anything even mildly obscure (e.g. summaries of lesser known movies are completely wrong). I hope that something good comes from all the AI development, but BingChat so far is a really lack luster and ham-fisted attempt at integrating search with AI, often performing much worse than plain ChatGPT instead of better.
The vast majority of Google’s revenue comes from advertising, which will remain relevant even if search more or less dies. They put ads in almost every other one of their products, not to mention the ad space they buy and then resell on other sites.
Anecdotally, I recently had an issue with my printer and used Google to search for the exact error message (something like ’ “error 4308e ink absorber pad is full” Brother JW539DW ') and the first three pages of results were random garbage about other things. If other search engines are worse, we are doomed.
Other search engines are better. Subjectively mostly, but to the point where I think I van almost day objectively. I used DuckDuckGo for 5 years now, and it’s crazy to see the difference.
I’m a Linux user too and there it’s the dame thing. I look at windows users and just wonder why people put up with all that shit while o have this super nice, legally free, stable system that doesn’t fuck around with me.
It feels like people are crazy but obviously it’s not that. It’s just that people don’t know any better. You search? That’s Google. The company got their brand and logo cemented in so many people’s brains that they’ll never fail, no matter how bad they get
Microsoft office… Only thing keeping me on windows…and vr games…
And who wants to use Microsoft office? Google docs, for all the evil that google does, at least just… Works nice, does what I need it to do and doesn’t make every single edit a fight to the death. I’ve had to use Microsoft office online or whatever the hell it’s called, and fuck me, what a headache
In academia it’s common to use word and that means if we are writing papers all the PIs are using it…google docs is better for collab…but would prefer open source solution. Issue is none of the open source word type software play well with Microsoft word…for obvious reasons… (the moment u got figures and formatting it all goes to shit…i mean even word struggles to keep word documents correctly formated between versions of it self) fml.
Linux has been anything but stable in my experience, while windows has been exceptionally stable in the last decade
Lol, great joke!
It used to be great for answering very specific, sometimes niche, questions. Now it just brings up irrelevant answers, outdated forums and Amazon ads.
Just tried looking up if it’s safe to light a fireplace fire after having had a sinus surgery. (It’s very cold here in Seattle tonight and I had septoplasty/FESS/turbinate reduction yesterday afternoon.)
All my results were about smoking cigarettes and a result for whether it’s okay to box after surgery. Not a single source to suggest a fire being safe or not.
This is why I use Bing Chat for specific questions.
"Hello, this is Bing. I’m sorry to hear that you had sinus surgery and that you’re feeling cold. 😟
According to some sources, it’s best to avoid exposure to smoke, dust, and other irritants after sinus surgery, as they can interfere with the healing process and cause inflammation. Therefore, lighting a fireplace fire may not be a good idea for your recovery."
Bing Chat provides sources to the claims so you can verify:
https://www.realself.com/question/cambridge-ks-pain-sinuses-weeks-after-fess-surgery https://www.healthline.com/health/phantosmia
That is really good to know! Thanks so much for the heads up on this! Never knew this was a thing.
You can also use perplexity.ai if Bing ai is not your cup of tea.
Was just going to say, I’ve been defaulting to perplexity way more recently. It is really good (even the free tier)
Your story is obviously anecdotal but I think it pretty much aligns with what what we’ve all experienced. You search for something and get results for something else. You change your search to try to get results you asked for and get… literally the exact same results. It’s infuriating.
Yep. Unless you’re looking for direct info like- what actor was in that one movie- type of thing….
For me the specific question remains unanswered. There are a lot of results about the health effects on respiration, but none about specifically after a sinus surgery. Might be a question so specific that the internet at large has no answer to it.
What I do not get (on Google, search from Germany) is what you describe, my results are all relevant on the first 3 pages barring 2 results about the surgery instead of the fireplace.
Yep. It might just be a really weird ask. Like… no one has ever considered it. Meanwhile, I’m sitting here without a fire.
Can’t you ring up your usual doctor to ask? Or well, I guess you’d need to call a lung specialist, but they ought to be able to answer that, no? Or your surgeon who did the surgery.
Well, I have an ENT that performed the surgery, but he’s not available overnight for questions.
No the surgeon isn’t available to talk to, but you can call and speak directly to a ENT department nurse for after surgery issues. This is a far better option than ANY search engine answer.
Use the right tool for the job.
They weren’t available at 3:00 AM either. Which is when I was looking it up.
Still the wrong tool. You either can wait and call when they are there or you need the ER at 3AM. And evidently you could wait.
What about DuckDuckGo?
DDG uses Bing’s results. Bing has deteriorated less than Google but it’s also becoming worse every day.
And it started out much worse, so eh, it still works worse for me than Google.
Bing AND Yandex
It doesn’t use just bing anymore: https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/results/sources/
That page is pretty misleading, though: it’s mostly talking about ‘Instant Amswers’ which is its AI (presumably) paid partnership answer bot thing at the top of the results. Further down, it says: “Of course, we have more traditional links and images in our search results too, which we largely source from Bing.”
So, although they don’t use Bing exclusively, that’s where the majority of non AI-answer-bot stuff is coming from. And I’m guessing the AI is Bing/Microsoft powered anyway, although I can’t be sure.
I don’t the answers section very very hit or miss
Often it will link you to a highlighted section with noting relevant.
RE: potential astroturfing (my comment last time); from my comment downthread that one:
Anytime [paid search engines] are mentioned I suppose I’ll jump in and say…SearXNG is a popular non-commercial alternative. I wanted to throw Grasp in to give a commercial competitor a shout but they’ve “paused”.
Update on Grasp:
We will be back soon and will open-source our code.
Neat, wonder if SearXNG x Grasp would be synergistic.
I am also using SearcXNG and the search results are usually good even though sometimes on the light side and I still have to resort to other search engines.
I’ve been finding it very useful on various SearXNG instances to change the “language” from “auto” to “en” (English) for most of my searches, or to a specific language if I’m searching for something local or something that’s likely to be written about in that specific language. The search results change drastically!
Make sure to enable more engines in the settings
We need a google that uses AI/ML to hunt and de-rank the 1800 word essay web pages that answer the question, “how long should you microwave a baked potato for?”
“In 1863, county cork in Ireland, Shamus O’Toole created the world first commercial potato farm. He’d go on to…”
These scammy useless sites are numbing - they pad a thousand plus empty, filler words on either side of the buried wrong, weak answer you would have just glanced by in the past. They are so formulaic and obvious, that an AI could probably identify them as such 10 times out of 10 without an effort.
Google chooses not to fix things like this. Because fuck you.
We need a google that uses AI/ML to hunt and de-rank the 1800 word essay web pages that answer the question, “how long should you microwave a baked potato for?”
“In 1863, county cork in Ireland, Shamus O’Toole created the world first commercial potato farm. He’d go on to…”
Exactly what it feels like if I’m asked to “write an 700-word article” somehow. Most of it is just filler material, really.
It’s funny because those essays are a symptom of SEO ranking. We’d better be certain that any automation we try to employ to fix this doesn’t lead to a worse problem.
Seamus.
And his potatoes.
One thing I have noticed is any search is more likely to pop up a news article with that word vs a good article on it. Look up say a band and I will get a lot of articles about some recent things they did vs the website for the band or an indepth look at the band. I really don’t need twenty versions of the same article from news networks all copying each other. It feels like it is favoring new stuff first and can’t see that it is repeating itself.
Duck duck go still works better.
Seconded. Looking up a past event on a subject (like a band) that has had a more recent, especially “viral” event happen to it, is like wrestling a shaved bear.
Nevermind that all of the recent shit is just articles quoting eachother, adding virtually nothing of value except noise.
Human: Hey Google can you tell me how this band got started and the significance of their first album?
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Human: oh that’s sad, I hope they get the help they need but about my questions–
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
Google: the lead singer was just admitted to rehab and you won’t believe what happens next!
This is actually a slight improvement
Then if do you click the link, the article has almost nothing to do with the title. No confirmations, no details, just random claims from someone who you’ve never heard of before.
That’s more the type of prompt you would give a LLM, rather than a search engine. I’m not surprised that it results in garbage.
Despite how bad Google Search had become, DuckDuckGo and Bing are somehow still worse. While Google displays the result in the first few, DDG and Bing have no idea what I’m looking for.
Gotta try Kagi sometime.
I hear this a lot, but I changed from google to DDG about a year ago and haven’t even considered looking back. I can find everything I need quite easily and can only think of maybe a handful of times that I have had to resort to using a bang to try and find something using another search engine. I’m very curious what the difference is between my experience and that of others who have problems DDG.
I recently switched aswell and am surprised how well it works. I thought it didn’t worked good enough but I never failed to find what I was looking for so far. Very nice.
On technical stuff, I find DDG better than google since I don’t have to wade through their sponsored ad and results. Google is getting unusable that way. I try it every few months when I can’t get an answer on DDG and it doesn’t work any better.
I totally agree with that. I’ve also found Google worse about being influenced by SEO tactics (probably just because it’s targeted for that) and so you get bogus results like GeeksForGeeks that are often really poorly written and irrelevant, sometimes even wrong, up at the top.
The amount of AI articles that are a bunch of padded bullshit designed to get indexed as more credible “long form” sources is getting out of hand. Sometimes it takes a couple minutes to wade through the intro bullshit where they give a bunch of background yammering, and then you find out it’s recycled trash is really starting to make research take time again.
IDK how you get around this but whichever search engine does will be very successful.
TBH I didn’t even notice that I was using DDG when switching to librewolf other than the icon on the top bar. I have found everything I have needed, though I usually use “site:lemmy.world” (for example) anyways.
Yeah I can’t actually notice the difference. Granted I’m not paying much attention, but that means most of the times I’m finding satisfying results with ddg.
Anecdotal evidence, but I swapped out Google for DDG about 5-6 years back and haven’t missed it. I do use Google sometimes but it’s once in 4-5 months when DDG fails me, which is acceptable to me.
Same here, I can usually find everything within the first 3-4 entries unless it’s a bit too abstract than it ends up at the bottom of the 1st page. I don’t understand people complaining about it so much as I depend on search engines for day to day and work related stuff so literally several times everyday. Although it’s possible I got used to how it works but if so then I would have had to swap between ddg and google alot if the quality actually was that low.
Yeah I’m the same. I’ve got DDG set as my default search, if the results aren’t useful then I go to google as backup.
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…and the website should have all that information, right?
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Do you know how many scams happen because it’s ridiculously easy for anyone to edit the “knowledge” panel? I’d rather click an extra button and get the real number from the business’ own website than trust whatever is on Google.
“You’re not this obtuse are you?” – uncalled for, but, I guess you are who you are. So, you do you, buddy.
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Are you completely incapable of communicating without resorting to personal attacks?
Personally I’m noticing the opposite.
I tend to do a lot of technical-related searches. I’m finding I’m getting consistently better results from DuckDuckGo / Bing – what I’m looking for is usually available on the first page without having to faff around.
With Google however, it was drawing parallels to what I’m looking for but not what I explicitly queried. I had to either enable verbose search, or manipulate the search to look for specific words. Even then what I was looking for was in the 3-4 page.
On google, I started seeing too many of the first results tagged as “ad”. It became even more concerning when those tag dissapeared but the same websites showed up.
I used to able to trouble shoot nearly anything I needed to, but now I come across completely unrelated posts more than I come across solutions.
I was iffy about bing, I still kind of am, but at least I find what I’m looking for most of the time. I’m personally going to wait a bit before trying out other browsers, when there’s a bit less risk of them selling. I remember a good android launcher that used to be trusted before they sold to another company
It’ll be a frigid day in hell before I pay some company to store my search history keyed to my CC for the inevitable sellout day. I’ll get by with DDG, which frankly works better than a search engine that doesn’t track your clicks has any right to.
I don’t know much my opinion matters: but the unique features in kagi honestly really help me find what I need. I can lower domains, or raise other ones, it can search archives and has a general set of features that make digesting and finding relevant results easier. It’s like a breath of fresh air, I can search and find not just endlessly search.
idk about bing, but duckduckgo either seems to be missing the index itself, or only works when you give it specific queries instead of generic keywords like Google.
I need to try kagi, in my usage I’ve found brave is best of the alternatives, and I’d put qwant after brave, though I might be biased by how nice qwant looks 😅
Try a Searxng instance. It’s a meta search that pulls form multiple engines (incl. Google).
Instances here: https://searx.space/
Looks like those theories about algorithms becoming recursive and ineffective will be proven sooner than we expected. I wonder if the emergence of crap AI sped the process up.
The AI questions and answers that almost never seem to be answering the question in my search.
Q: Best tool for removing a nail
A: The most common tool used to take out nails is a hammer!
No, Google. I fucking know what hammers are. I’m asking you for NAIL PULLERS. JESUS CHRIST.
Jesus Christ would have wanted a decent nail puller.
Only according to John. In the Letters and the others Gospels he was tied to the cross, so he would have wanted a good pair of scissors.
First place my brain went reading this thread…
“Siri, play ‘Zombie’ by the Cranberries.”
Huh, never knew that.
It’s one of those things that could mean a lot or could mean nothing. Me personally I think it was a very important detail, because it means
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The author had seen both methods used and picked the dramatic effect one despite knowing that earlier writers hadn’t chosen that way.
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Since he has Thomas stick his fingers in the hole it weakens the Thomasian/Gnostic view of the events. Indicating that Gnostics were older than expected, since there is no reason to rebute an argument with powerful symbolism if no one is yet making it.
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I met someone who claimed to believe that every word in the Bible is true and that it describes events that all actually happened. How do such people explain inconsistencies like this?
I think about this idea a lot. In my mind, I thought it was obvious to everybody that most if not all of the Bible was meant to be allegory or instructional. Clearly I don’t know a lot of fundamentalist Christians… How do they account for different translations and versions of the Bible?
That was me when I was much younger. Basically I used a lot of cognitive dissonance. Yes, I was a biblical literalist. It was the word of God and the word of God needs to be perfect, not allegory not metaphor.
Would love to tell people I left because of some profound revelation but it didn’t happen that way.
He’d have had to grip it in his teeth though, probably would have been a bit tricky really.
A nail puller could be a person.
In an alternate universe Peter is dubbed the Nail Puller of the church and never stops talking about how this one time he pulled some nails out.
And nobody ever questioned why this “🔨” was a holy symbol.
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Though in your particular example I’m reasonably confident that the tool most people use to remove nails is indeed the claw on the back of their hammer. Where it fucked up was that you asked for the best, not the most common.
Yes, true. But the point is it never actually seems to read what I’m actually asking. The generated question will be what I want, but then the result it reveals may practically be the opposite.
What happened to all those random blog posts by tool nerds listing the most useful demolition tools? I know they’re out there. Somewhere…
Sometimes I have resorted to searching blog domains and it isn’t bad for the right queries.
You know what the claw end of the hammer is for right?
Actually 2 hammers are really good to take out a nail sometimes. You use one hammer to tap the claw of the other one under the nail.
Honestly I have a cat paw type nail puller but 9/10 hammer is the answer.
I was demoing at the time, and framing nails can be a bitch and a half to get out, plus they were quite well sunk. Hammer claw wasn’t cutting it.
I switched to DDG and then to Kagi based on all the praise it gets here. So much better than Google!
Interestingly according to the linked paper, DDG (and naturally Bing) are significantly performing worse than Google, even in the face of Google having gotten worse.
I always had a gut feeling about that when using DDG, but interesting to see the numerical difference. (31% vs 23% vs 9% spam)
DDG is worse, at least anecdotally. But kagi is much better. Looks like the researchers didn’t study that one though so no “proof”, but anecdotally I completely stopped using Google for search.
That is still just one specific measure. They will also have a specific definition of what they consider spam. What I have found, admittedly anecdotally, is that the results just don’t answer the search anymore. The results aren’t spam they just aren’t good.
DDG did have better results in one major instance for me in figuring out an error message that Google gave me literally no results. DDG has several appropriate answers that LED me to a solution. I don’t think that will stay the case overall but Google does need to do better.
Other search engines can be worse, but if we keep using google and allowing them to have the monopoly, no search engine will ever get better.
I keep hearing about Kagi, are they reputable? I moved from Google to DDG and I do a fair bit of searching so I would be interested, but I guess there’s a bit of a one-company-knowing-my-search-history going on (totally unironically).
I haven’t done extensive research, but as it’s a paid product, they have the user’s interest in mind, instead of ad revenue.
