No clean hands here. The whole situation is garbage. The particularly salient point is that Israel, as the nation-state actor and a liberal democracy is expected to act more responsibly and with a higher moral character. Bibi’s a trash human being, but the longer this goes (and has gone) on the more and more of the culpability is shared by everyday Israelis.
The entire conflict was started by israel when they stole the Palestinians land.
And the only party actively refusing to resolve the conflict is also israel, openly saying they will never acknowledge a Palestinian state and proudly presenting their plans to colonize the west bank as well.
The term “liberal democracy” is rather generous for a Nazi-like apartheid.
No, no, no… Clearly the Palestinians are just squatters when the Israelis, the true indigenous people, went on a little vacation. …
/s. Are we still doing this?
Horrid take
In a sense, Hamas had to have known that what they were going to do was going to have a HUGE military response from Israel. Govts are like the Mafia, they can’t just let any disrespect go unpunished. Hamas planned on indiscriminately killing civilians and taking hostages. I’m not sure any government in the world wouldn’t have had a predictable military response of some kind.
Hamas seems to have misjudged the extant to which Israel was willing to go (all-out war and extermination of Hamas), but they still knew at some level that Israel was going to come in shooting and killing civilians. Israel shoots at kids for throwing rocks, of course Hamas knew civilians were getting killed from their actions. Add in that Netanyahu has his own unrelated troubles in Israel and he needed a disaster like this to distract the public. Plus, Israel would take any excuse it could to further erode Gaza, so they basically handed Israel a gift-wrapped war.
Does that absolve Israel’s military from indiscriminately killing civilians? Absolutely not, they have their own issues with systemic racism towards Arabs that’s built up over decades and a military that’s apparently given up on professionalism and following the rule of law. I think their calculus is total extermination of Hamas and further encroachment into Palestinian lands, to them that’s more than worth whatever civilian casualties and international condemnation they get for a few months of conflict.
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
Since you are still under the impression that Hamas indiscriminately killed civilians, here’s a nice video explaining what really happened on oct7
is all of this compiled anywhere else? bullet points or something with links?
i believe it, but i won’t spread it unless i can verify it.
Yes this video is actually addressing his article which is filled with links and evidence:
Netanyahu’s War on Truth - Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
If you skip the chapter “intelligence failures” and go straight to “Information warfare” you’ll find evidence for all his claims in the video.
the entire article fully formatted in markdown
i would have pushed it here as a reply but it surpassed the maximum character count. you might find it useful for supporting your arguments in the future.
Being an asshole rarely brings people to your side
You’re right I have repeated myself a lot over the last months which tends to get tiring but this person might not yet be up to date.
I will rephrase my previous comment thank you for pointing it out.
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
I can’t say what they should have known, but ot looks like they were really aiming for Israel to go “your rocket strikes always hurt but that massacre hit us especially hard, and you also took civillians as hostages, so yeah, we have no choice but to stop oppressing you. Sorry for everything and you can keep the hostages”, which couldn’t be fruitful no matter how you look at it.
Did you see videos recorded by Palestinians themselves on that day though?
Random gore videos from syria and other places and some rape videos from different time and regions. I was scared as a muslim but my friends said be brave, idf is good at spreading false information and it really did happen.
You mean all those videos are fake?
No. Misinformed. Most of them were real videos but were not related to palestine or israel.
Is the video where toilet boxes at the music festival are getting shooted at not related to Palestine or Israel?
Can you provide a link?
Many of the videos are real. Hamas definitely shot some civilians. The problem is all the burnt bodies.
If you ask the question “How did Israel count 250 burnt Hamas fighters as Israeli civilians” the narrative falls apart.
I don’t think such a question is what a theoretical judgment should end with.
I’d like to ask a question “is there an explanation of logic behind the attack on October 7?”.
The only explanation I can come up with is that hamas wanted a lot of Palestinians to get killed. This fits more points in a “hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians” narrative, than any other explanation would fit the “Israel doesn’t care about Israeli” narrative.
The explanation is that Israel has been effectively laying seige to them for 30 years, and they found a chance to actually hurt them and seized it. There was no other choice available to them. If some Palestinians survive this, it will be more than would have survived without the 10/7 attack
I saw all the videos of Oct7.
They took hostages because israel has illegally kidnapped many Palestinians and tortures them in prison without trial before oct7. And Hamas wants to trade their hostages for the Palestinians hostages kidnapped by israel.
How many hostages does Israel hold?
So is it okay to propose that hamas could have a success if they captured the same amount?
No israel would still kill all the hostages held by Hamas. Their government doesn’t care about hostages.
I watched a few minutes of your video. For the love of all that is holy, Gaza is not a concentration camp - they are not being forced into slavery, gassed, tortured, experimented upon and systematically killed. It’s not even an “open air prison”. What are you people talking about? How can you be so arrogant about a subject you know nothing about first hand??
I mean, there’s still some shit going on.
A group of UN “experts” (which are independent people) demanded an investigation. Why would that be evidence of anything?
The ICJ found that there was Genocide and Ruled that Isn’treal must take all steps practicle to stop the genocide, why have you not done that yet?
You’re half right. They did say Israel (come on man you can do it, spell right) must take all steps to stop a genocide from happening (because there isn’t one happening right now) and they demanded Hamas release all hostages. Why have you not done that yet?
I mean first, I need to point out that that Isn’treal was convicted genocide.
I would also like to point out that the “hostages” potentialy could be called Prisoners of war, have been demonstrated as safer with Hamas as the IOF has shot released POWs who have come under a white flag to the IOF
People are locked in a camp
People are bombed to death
People are starved to death
How can you be so arrogant about a subject you know nothing about at all?
Are you denying that the Holocaust happened because you weren’t there first hand?
What is arrogant about what I said?
Oh ok you’re a bot. Got it.
Answer the damn questions
Did I break the AI?
Israel is still in the wrong for retaliating to 10/7 at all. If you punch a guy in a bar, then he punches you back, you aren’t then allowed to retaliate to the retaliation. Throwing a 3rd punch would mean you are both the starter of the fight, and also responsible for perpetuating it
Exactly, its not Israel that started this war, if you go stab a bear its not really the bears fault when it mauls you.
The bear isn’t a democratic society with moral obligations not to commit ethnic cleansing.
Do you think the history of Palestinian/Israeli relations started last October? Lmao.
Are you comfortable with Israel killing, injuring, and destroying the homes, businesses, and communities of Gazans?
Of course I’m not but I’m also not surprised that its happening after Oct 7. I think there should be an immediate ceasefire, from both sides, and then hash out some kind of diplomatic compromise. Not up to me though
I would also like a cease fire. Or truce. An armistice or something that creates a short term and then a long term peace where the Palestinians can have the freedoms that the Israelis have. Though that may be too much to ask.
I can’t explain Hamas’ thinking for the actions of Oct. 7th. But I can see, if we work your analogy, that they didn’t just go out to poke a bear. Rather, the bear has been menacingly hovering over Palestinians after coming into the home and swiping at them for decades. They can either die slowly doing nothing, or fight back knowing that they can be morally injured. Meanwhile, all your neighbors are saying you should let the bear live peacefully in your home. In fact, the city council made a plan for that to happen. Enen your friends are like, “The bear isn’t that bad.” So you fight back. And your friends aren’t on team bear anymore. And some neighbors are like “WTF bear!” And none of that happens without knifing the bear.
We’d love to meet Hamas alone on a battlefield. Can you set it up?
I mean I would love for a Genocide to stop happening from a Setteler colonial nation, who seems hell bent on the extermination of a multi-religious group of people,(because yes there where and are palistianian jews) can you please set that up?
Nice try Ret. General Gantz! We know you’d rather push the Palestinians into the sea.
Yeah, yeah we’d rather kill all Palestinians, sure. Cause Jews are so evil forcing their religion and culture on everybody else, killing and beheading people in the name of their god in a war against democracy, liberalism, equal rights and “the west”.
who said anything about Jews, We are talking about Isn’treal here, 1) stop conflaiting the 2
second OMFG your second sentence is so ubelevably racist
Benny… c’mon my friend! We know what you want. Just say it. It’s freeing. Don’t hide behind deflection.
I. want. pro Palestinians to explain why they think Israel wants to exterminate Palestinians while ignoring Hamas’s slogan for the eradication of Israel and Jews. It’s reverse psychology right? If we would say that we want to erase Gaza then you’d believe we have good intentions, right?
no Isnt’real started it when they where doing the slow genocide, you cannot blame an opressed group for fighting their opression. your poking the bear analigy in no way holds up. Isn’treal was not minding its buisness it was before the opporation still activly genoicing the palistinians.
“Isn’treal” he said while wafting up and smelling his own Cheeto farts
Look, Would you rather I use the correct name of a state that has been founded from day one on genociding the palistinians?
Yes please. Otherwise it’s cringy. Nobody is “genociding” your precious Palestinians man. It was founded for Jews to have a safe place. But it’s kinda hard when all Muslim countries surrounding it keep poking it and getting their asses kicked. Hey if we wanted it to be fair there should be as many Christian countries as Muslim and Jewish and Buddhist and atheist etc. countries. But unfortunately Jews have been “genocided” for thousands of years and they only have one tiny country to call home in a sea of Arab.
Look man, I have no care about being “cringy” I think your complet lack of human empathy or geoplolitical understanding is cringe, but that is not the reason I am arguing.
No the reason Isn’treal was founded (yes I am doubling down on it) was a fuffilment of Zionism, at the time was seen as a deeply anti-semetic idea, and it arguably still is, it is we do not want the Jews near us, Their only argument for it is that the tora talked about it their, and may I point out that it is rediculous that we would use a holy book as justification for kicking people who where living in an area already out of their homes. Palistine already existed as the Palistinian Mandate, it was a mandate under the UK as a comprimise after WW1 for the dissilusion of the Ottoman empire, between self determination of the locals, and the empire building of the great powers of the time, so the idea being is it would be the UK’s in name only. Isn’treal soon after they took over the Mandate of Palistine, did the Nakba, removal of all political rights and posessions, and forced migrations into the gettos, massicers and killings, destruction of importion cultrual and comunity sights, and this, Fimbulwinter, is why their neighbors dislike them, this event right here,
If you are curious the reason why there are so many isalmic nations in the area, we can look at the ottoman empire, I also want to point out that their are 0 Athiest nations, a large amount of Christian nations.
So yes Isn’treal has been genocidal from day one, you can even ask the first person they asked to be president Albert Einstine who refused on the basis of the being genocidal.
Israel is partially to blame for how successful Hamas’s attack on October 7th was and of course for the original motivation to commit such strikes.
And Hamas is to blame for the retaliation. 🤷♂️
So if I shot you, it’s partly your fault for not dodging, right ?
Except, in this case, you had him tied to a chair first and shot him because he spat on you.
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Does the tourists at the rave beat the shit out of them ?
Idk ask idf
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Gaza is just the Stanford Prison Experiment on a larger scale.
Yes exactly.
Exactly what?
Aye stop killing civilians Abraham you cunt
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Consistency is not necessary, IMO. What did Israel expect Gaza to do when they started genociding them? The deaths of all civilians as well as all combatants are the fault of Israel. They don’t get to play dumb about what was going to happen after starting a genocide.
I disagree. It’s difficult to ask perfection from Palestinian resistance but there were still mistakes made. But two wrongs do not make a right and we need to stay morally consistent.
If a Hamas fighter did knowingly shoot a non-combatant then that action is wrong.
But how can they possibly know someone is a non-combatant? The opponent doesn’t even follow the Geneva convention, meaning it’s correct to fire on people wearing a red cross, carrying a white flag, etc.
Well yes israel doesn’t follow any rules. They should all be Neurenberged. But the goal is not lowering to israels level.
To be clear I do not care if Hamas attacks IDF.
There are several instances of Hamas soldiers not attacking non combatants which was good.
But there are definitely cases of other soldiers not doing this. They are not a monolith.
Russians killing Ukrainians = Genocide Israel killing Palestinians = Freedom fighters
I have no idea what you are trying to say
Add a line break between “genocide” and “israel”.
Exactly.
Hamas started the war. Hamas took hostages to force a ground campaign. Hamas spent huge amounts of resources building an underground tunnel network. To say they dug in within the civilian population of Gaza is a massive understatement. Hamas does not wear uniforms when they fight.
Those are facts that oversimplified cartoon memes can’t change.
Even if we assume everything you said was completely true and without merit… Does it justify IDF knowingly killing civilians?
It’s war. If there’s a valid military objective, then you hit the target even when you know civilian casualties are possible. Efforts should be made 9and they are) to prevent civilian casualties, but in a war civilian casualties are inevitable.
Hamas knew civilian casualties would happen in the war they started. In fact they started the war by killing civilians. Hamas simply didn’t care about civilian casualties, both Israeli and Palestinian.
Isn’treal has been doing a genoicide lots longer than october the 8th, look at the Nakba, Heck look at the statments the government of Isn’treal makes about the palistinians.
The good old cycle of violence, huh? Logically if the Nakba justifies October 7, then October 7 justifies everything that’s happening now.
Of course logically speaking, when you choose violence, the only thing that matters is which side has the greater capability of exercising violence on the other. And that side is clearly Israel.
The Nakba may have given Palestinians a stronger hand at the negotiating table. But Palestinians chose Hamas and Hamas chose violence. Their grievances are irrelevant when they commit an act of war.
It is shitty that civilians get caught up in this but I feel it’s a lot as if Nazi germany accused the allies of genocide in WW2. There simply is no moral base for this. And let’s not forget Hamas was also voted into power at some point.
So what are saying is that because the allies bombed Dresden, the Germans were actually defending themselves against the Jews?
And you say that you agree with the Nazi’s committing the Holocaust?
Wtf is wrong with you dude
What? What I mean is if you vote for the extremists, don’t be suprised pickachu face if your male population is decimated and your capital looks like Berlin 1945 afterwards.
I didn’t vote for Trump, but I should be killed because he got into power anyways? That’s fucked up, especially since Hamas was financially supported by israel
If Trumps insanity escalates too much and you fail to distance yourself sufficiently then at one point thats the only way.
Think about it from the other side: was it wrong to accept collateral damage to german civilians in order to stop the Nazis? How is this different?
First, how is it different?
That was a traditional war, with opposing armies facing each other in combat. Palestine cannot have an army due to the oslo accords.
The majority of the people killed in WWII Germany were the victims of the Holocaust, then the German soldiers, not civilians. Here, the vast majority killed are civilians, not the Hamas combatants.
The goal of the Allies was to end the war. The goal of israel is revenge and (depending on which israeli you ask) the elimination of the state is Palestine.
Second, no I don’t think that the German civilian deaths were fine. Just like I don’t agree with dropping atomic bombs on two Japanese civilian towns. And WWII is infamous for being brutal, inhumane, and a repulsive example of human hatred and violence.
So to summarize, killing innocent people is bad. The people dying don’t deserve to die and don’t have to die. israel should stop.
I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians, they are getting caught up because Hamas uses human shield tactics that maximize civilian deaths. Israel also is not in to destroy palestine or for revenge, they are in for destroying Hamas. And when dealing with extremists you have to go for full surrender, always was like this thoughout history and it’s also true here. War has changed that’s true and Israel is making use of that to minimize civilian deaths, did you note how they are using guided bombs instead if carpet bombing for instance? Still it’s impossible to save every innocent civilian and it is an infeasible standard for a war even in this day and age.
I disagree. Israel is not targeting civilians
Well that’s just objectively wrong.
Israel dropped more bombs to Gaza in a week than the US did in Afghanistan… in a year.
But you’ll criticise the sources so let’s go with the UN (although IDF trolls will still complain that UN is somehow controlled by Hamas or smth equally silly)
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15564.doc.htm
As Israel’s Aerial Bombardments Intensify, ‘There Is No Safe Place in Gaza’, Humanitarian Affairs Chief Warns Security Council
Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people
GENEVA (16 November 2023) – Grave violations committed by Israel against Palestinians in the aftermath of 7 October, particularly in Gaza, point to a genocide in the making, UN experts said today. They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to “destroy the Palestinian people under occupation”, loud calls for a ‘second Nakba’ in Gaza and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, and the use of powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.
At least 95 civilians – nearly half of them children – killed in four unlawful strikes in Rafah
Attacks took place in southern governorate supposed to be “safe”
All four strikes are likely direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects and must be investigated as war crimes
Tldr gtf on out of here, idf troll
Hamas hasn’t held an election since 2006. In that election, 45% of the population voted for Hamas, 42% voted for the Fatah, and the remaining 13% voted for smaller parties. Half of Gaza is under 18 and 65% percent of the population is younger than the 25 years old.
So what you’re saying is that Gazans should expect to be murdered because, in an election held when the majority of them were too young to vote and half of them weren’t even alive, a minority of people voted for extremists. Great point dude.
It’s not like public opinion has changed much in palestine, check the other comments for sources.
But ultimately I believe that people are responsible for their government. If you are born in gaza, realize that Hamas is shit but don’t try to bring change through protests or organizing opposition and also don’t leave but stay, go on with your live and pay your taxes to Hamas etc. then you’re part of the problem. Otherwise what is left? Hamas being untouchable due to the people acting as human shields? In my book that’s way worse.
Totally dude, totally. If I were a child growing up in Gaza, and I lived in poverty, with poor access to food and medicine because of Israeli blockades, while thousands of my countrymen where killed or displaced by Israeli air raids or gunned down by the IDF for protesting…well, obviously I would want to overthrow Hamas. I would definitely hate the group fighting the country makes my life hell, and I would definitely try get Hamas out of power.
Like you said, people are responsible for their government, and the people of Gaza (who are, again, HALF CHILDREN) are responsible for removing these extremists from power, even though they don’t hold elections. Another great take dude.
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity? And you think after what happened Israel should just accept Hamas at their border and wait it out for the next attack?
Sucks for the kids but it’s also pretty bad for the Israeli children that are still in captivity btw. Should Israel just give up on them?
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity?
Holy shit the Israeli propaganda is strong.
After more than a month of the Israeli government’s unlawful blockade of Gaza, which has included catastrophic cuts to water, fuel, and electricity, as well as very limited deliveries of food, water, and medical supplies, the lack of clean water is resulting in “grave concerns” by public health experts of an imminent infectious disease outbreak in Gaza, including waterborne illnesses like cholera and typhoid.
Israel is genociding Palestinians. This is not some controversial take. It’s the stance of the UN and the majority of the international community, supported by mountains of evidence.
Yet still pigs like you dare write garbage comments like that
A) No, I mean the blockades that have been going on since 2007. They limit necessary supplies to Gaza and are the reason it has been called an, “open-air prison.” B) Israel is the occupying force in Gaza and therefore has a legal obligation to supply Gaza with water and power under the Oslo Accords. C) Israel has been failing in that obligation, because for years 97% of the drinking water has been below the minimum safety standards for human consumption.
Anyway, again, really great points, really showing your knowledge of the conflict here.
Great job blaming THE LITERAL VICTEMS OF GENOCIDE FOR THEIR GENOCIDE,
So the palestinians are being victimized both by Hamas and Israel and they have no control of their live whatsoever? If this is your take then why do they choose to stay and why do they choose to bring kids into an environment like this?
No, my stance is that Isn’treal is comitting a gennocide aganst palistine. Hamas is not victimising anyone here, they are in effect one of the organizations the opressed are using to fight back.
As for why they “chose to stay” where do they have to go, for the VAST majority not only is palistine the only place they have citizenship to, its also their home, and most people do not take kindly to an invador trying to take it, or to wipe you and your culture out.
As for why have children, because 1) why aid the genocide and 2) they are still humans doing human things, they still want families, they still have hope for a future, when things get bad we dont just stop having offspring.
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Same story, ultimately russians are responsible for Putin.
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If you don’t want to risk your life at the very least you can stop contributing and leave. And personally that would also have been my choice.
Palestinians had plenty of options and a shit ton of development aid and charity money to improve their place. Hamas was far from their only option.
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Half the population wasn’t yet born the last time elections were held.
Still they don’t do anything to bring change.
92% of Palestinians support hamas, they spit on the Israeli children as they were dragged off to be raped and murdered. Both sides are pure evil, supporting either side is smooth brain move. Fuck Israel, fuck palestine.
why would you create a false equivelence between the opressed and the opressors, the genocided and the genocidal, Palistine has a right to stand up and stop the Genocide. This is not some topic you can sit of the fence for, this is not some “both sides are bad” move, there is a genocide going on, and your choices are to oppose the genocide or not to oppose a genocide, that is it, its really simple
I appose the genocide of Palestinians, but also apposed the genocide of Israelis.
Again, you are incapable of understanding more than good vs evil, and you must pick a side.
It is not simple, it is incredibly ignorant and delusional that you would call this simple.
There is no genocide of the people of Isn’treal, that juat isnt a think thats happening
Ah, checked out your comment history, pro china, pro russia troll that baits people into strawman arguments.
No thanks
Pro PRC, yes, Pro Russia, I would not say that, in the geopolitical sense they are preferable to NATO, troll, I would not classify myself as troll but to each their own, and most of the time, I am not the one doing the baiting nor the straw maning. That being said, Thank you for looking at you comment history, and felt the need to call my standing up fpr a people under genocide trolling, I feel so special now
Israel is raping women and sexually violating girls according to the UN.
Hamas does not do those things. Please refrain from spreading fake news.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html
And why are you mentioning Israel? I very clearly said fuck Israel. You clearly only have the capacity to see everything as good vs evil, so one side must be good.
Why are you linking a fake made up article that has been fully debunked for its lies?
https://theintercept.com/2024/02/07/gaza-israel-netanyahu-propaganda-lies-palestinians/
Why are you linking a borderline extremist news site that censors its writers and fabricates information? https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-intercept/
And the new york times is considered one of the most factual news sources. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-times/
MBFC endorses UNWatch as credible.
UNWatch screams that the UN is Hamas.
Why would you use that garbage Zionist MBFC site?
Are you saying that the UN is Hamas?
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Strange because I read:
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY
Being a Zionist must be very difficult when you deny reality.
