compilation of best bits from that debate where the man who has no place in a room gets reminded he has no place in said room (cw: israeli crimes and the violence that comes with it)

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

compilation of best bits from that debate where the man who has no place in a room gets reminded he has no place in said room (cw: israeli crimes and the violence that comes with it)

sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

Steven Borelli

But I’m just saying… Believe it or not, Norm, the entire Geneva Convention is all on Wikipedia. It’s a wonderful website.

no notes

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

silent_water [she/her]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

at one point Norm tells him something to the effect of “Mr Bonerelli, between the 3 of us, we’ve read 10000 books and you’ve read two pages on wiki pedia” (he says it like two separate words - the man apparently refuses to use a computer). I did not expect him to nail to the post this fucking hard and fast.

Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.net · 4 months ago

I saw some dorks on reddit being like “Bah such gatekeeping” about this comment. Which, like, do people really think that “debate about high level geo-political conflict” is not a gate which should be kept?

silent_water [she/her]@hexbear.net · 4 months ago

it’s the old saying “remain silent and be thought a fool or speak and forever remove all doubt.” self-awareness is a skill and calling someone out for lacking it isn’t gatekeeping to begin with. like if the topic were related to Bonercelli’s lived experience, this would be gatekeeping - but it’s not. he’s pontificating about a genocide thousands of miles away from where he lives.

Lerios [hy/hym]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

Steven Bonnell: No, no, I’m just saying that there were two tricks-

Norman Finkelstein: You said nothing, as you always do.

Benny Morris: No, you don’t know Israeli pilots-

Norman Finkelstein: I know, thank God.

FUCKING GET EM NORM the complete open lack of respect he has for destiny especially is phenomenal. he really has gone full joker huh

DinosaurThussy [they/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Mr. Borelli, with all due respect, you’re such a fantastic moron, it’s terrifying.

I’m fucking dying it’s perfect

Ram_The_Manparts [he/him]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

The fact that Density has not been beaten to within an inch of his life is an indictment of the entire USAmerican left.

Do better.

the_itsb [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

When is he next coming to Ohio?

RedQuestionAsker2 [he/him, she/her]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

The beginning of the debate was super weird.

I was surprised by the historical framing that happens. The Israeli side just takes as a given that the Zionists were owed a piece of Palestinian land and that the Palestinians should have accepted it. The focus is then over how either side of the conflict didn’t respect the original proposition or couldn’t be reasoned with.

But like… They totally ignore the fact that Palestinians would OBVIOUSLY not be obligated to carve up their land and hand it to global imperialists. This pretty foundational and clear argument isn’t mentioned until like 3 hours into the debate.

It reminds me of how skewed the framing is. Like when Norm’s partner says, “I’ve never, in my decades of experience, seen an interviewer ask ‘do you condemn Israel’s actions?’”

Flyberius [comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

This is the mightiest of effort posts

the_itsb [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

The formatting must have taken forever.

o7

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

I scripted it. The menial part was getting the excerpts and coding it. Here's the python code.

import os
import re
import random


def debate(file_path):
    finkelsteinisms = {
        "Borelli",
        "Barelli",
        "Morelli",
        "Berelli",
        "Borrell",
        "Farelli",
    }

    absurdisms = {
        "Versace",
        "Bumblebee",
        "Bartholomew",
        "Penalty",
        "Bigamy",
        "Beetlejuice",
        "Basketball",
        "Beelzebub",
        "Botulism",
        "Botany",
        "Fealty",
        "Weaselly",
        "Bitchass",
        "Bonelli",
        "Wikipedia",
        "Zestily"
    }

    def process_content(content):
        sections = content.strip().split("\n\n")
        processed_sections = []

        for section in sections:
            lines = section.strip().split("\n")
            processed_lines = []
            first_timecode_found = False

            for line in lines:
                match = re.match(
                    r"(\w+ \w+)? ?\((\d{2}:\d{2}:\d{2})\)\s*(.*)", line.strip()
                )
                if match:
                    speaker, timecode, message = match.groups()
                    if speaker:
                        if "Bonnell" in speaker and random.randint(1, 4) == 1:
                            if random.randint(1, 4) == 1:
                                mister_x = random.choice(list(absurdisms))
                            else:    
                                mister_x = random.choice(list(finkelsteinisms))
                            speaker = speaker.replace("Bonnell", mister_x)
                        if not first_timecode_found:
                            processed_line = f"`({timecode})`  \n**{speaker}**  \n{message.strip()}\n"
                            first_timecode_found = True
                        else:
                            processed_line = f"**{speaker}**  \n{message.strip()}\n"
                    else:
                        processed_line = f"\n{message.strip()}\n"
                    processed_lines.append(processed_line)
                else:
                    processed_lines.append(line)

            processed_section = "\n".join(processed_lines)
            processed_sections.append(processed_section)

        return "\n_______________\n\n".join(processed_sections)

    dir_name, base_name = os.path.split(file_path)
    name_part = os.path.splitext(base_name)[0]
    new_file = os.path.join(dir_name, f"{name_part}_updated.md")

    with open(file_path, "r", encoding="utf-8") as file:
        content = file.read()

    formatted_content = process_content(content)

    with open(new_file, "w", encoding="utf-8") as file:
        file.write(formatted_content)

Here’s what it looked like preprocess pretty much:

the_itsb [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

I have been meaning to do that “Automate The Boring Stuff With Python” class for a couple years now, but this is the kinda exciting-boring shit I didn’t know I could do with it. Formatting all of that by hand would have taken me forever, and it is thrilling to me to know that you didn’t do it that way.

This is awesome. You are awesome. Thanks for the inspiration ❤️

Beaver [he/him]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Hell yeah (but in a respectful way)

panopticon [comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Lmao

GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Patelli: The UN says “the vast majority” of protestors were peaceful

Piranelli, seconds later: According to the UN, the protestors were not mostly peaceful

DirtyPair [they/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Steven Botulism

Steven Bumblebee

Steven Weaselly

Steven Beetlejuice

thank you for the post, comrade

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

¯\(ツ)/¯

import os
import re
import random


def debate(file_path):
    finkelsteinisms = {
        "Borelli",
        "Barelli",
        "Morelli",
        "Berelli",
        "Borrell",
        "Farelli",
    }

    absurdisms = {
        "Versace",
        "Bumblebee",
        "Bartholomew",
        "Penalty",
        "Bigamy",
        "Beetlejuice",
        "Basketball",
        "Beelzebub",
        "Botulism",
        "Botany",
        "Fealty",
        "Weaselly",
        "Bitchass",
        "Bonelli",
        "Wikipedia",
        "Zestily"
    }

    def process_content(content):
        sections = content.strip().split("\n\n")
        processed_sections = []

        for section in sections:
            lines = section.strip().split("\n")
            processed_lines = []
            first_timecode_found = False

            for line in lines:
                match = re.match(
                    r"(\w+ \w+)? ?\((\d{2}:\d{2}:\d{2})\)\s*(.*)", line.strip()
                )
                if match:
                    speaker, timecode, message = match.groups()
                    if speaker:
                        if "Bonnell" in speaker and random.randint(1, 4) == 1:
                            if random.randint(1, 4) == 1:
                                mister_x = random.choice(list(absurdisms))
                            else:    
                                mister_x = random.choice(list(finkelsteinisms))
                            speaker = speaker.replace("Bonnell", mister_x)
                        if not first_timecode_found:
                            processed_line = f"`({timecode})`  \n**{speaker}**  \n{message.strip()}\n"
                            first_timecode_found = True
                        else:
                            processed_line = f"**{speaker}**  \n{message.strip()}\n"
                    else:
                        processed_line = f"\n{message.strip()}\n"
                    processed_lines.append(processed_line)
                else:
                    processed_lines.append(line)

            processed_section = "\n".join(processed_lines)
            processed_sections.append(processed_section)

        return "\n_______________\n\n".join(processed_sections)

    dir_name, base_name = os.path.split(file_path)
    name_part = os.path.splitext(base_name)[0]
    new_file = os.path.join(dir_name, f"{name_part}_updated.md")

    with open(file_path, "r", encoding="utf-8") as file:
        content = file.read()

    formatted_content = process_content(content)

    with open(new_file, "w", encoding="utf-8") as file:
        file.write(formatted_content)

DirtyPair [they/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Philosoraptor [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

Norman Finkelstein Mr. Berelli, I’m going to ask you again-

Steven Farelli Yes.

Norman Finkelstein … Please stop displaying your imbecility.

Steven Farelli I’m sorry if you think the declaration of the judge is imbecility.

Norman Finkelstein Don’t put on public display that you are a moron. At least have the self-possession to shut up.

SkibidiToiletFanAcct [none/use name]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

This guy blows so much empty air, no wonder he thought his name was Bernoulli

Lerios [hy/hym]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

comrade i’m sorry you had to be exposed to this fucking cognitohazard but also thank you for exposing yourself to it so i don’t have to watch/read the whole thing

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

I have a high school friend who’s into Destiny and his political opinions are the most annoying “I’m going to take the side of whatever the status quo is so I don’t have to feel the stress of arguing for anything without a base of power behind it”-shit most of the time so I’m supernaturally compulsed to dunk on him when his debate daddy wanders into territory I can actually critique coherently. Basically I rationalized my reading of it as a public service, thanks anyways

panopticon [comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

“I’m going to take the side of whatever the status quo is so I don’t have to feel the stress of arguing for anything without a base of power behind it”

I love this, so succinct

keepcarrot [she/her]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Yeah, there is no way I could ever watch this. They should probably set rules on who is allowed to talk over who, at the very least.

Parsani [love/loves, comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Norm:

There is no hope

Real

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

–>

TrudeauCastroson [he/him]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Thank you for transcribing this

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

Copied from Lex Fridman’s transcription (linked in post). I just was thinking if people didn’t want to read the whole thing I’d give them what they came for.

TheOtherwise [none/use name]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Which israeli minister spoke about dropping an atomic bomb the day after the icj ruling?

It was referenced here

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

transcript cont. 1

(04:26:40)
Norman Finkelstein
The only place I saw pieces of Israel were the land swaps, and the land swaps accounted for about 2-5% of Israel. Nobody asked for all of Israel. Why do you say things like that?

Steven Bonnell
What do you mean? They asked for all of Israel in ’48. They asked for all of Israel in ’67. What do you think those reports were about?

Norman Finkelstein
Okay. Mr. Bonnell, you talk so-

Steven Bonnell
You’re not going to respond to anything I’m saying because you have no answer.

Norman Finkelstein
I’ll respond to you. Okay. Mr. Bonnell, we were talking about the diplomatic negotiations beginning with 2001.

Steven Bigamy
Yes, I understand, but you can’t pretend that the first ask for Israel was in diplomacy. It was through war.

Norman Finkelstein
Okay. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

(04:35:38)
Benny Morris
Why is it illegal? They were shooting rockets at Israel for 20 years. Why is that illegal to blockade Gaza?

Steven Farelli
He thinks they’re bottle rockets, that’s what he calls them [inaudible 04:35:47].

Norman Finkelstein
Why is it illegal? I’ll tell you why.

Benny Morris
You don’t rocket your neighbor. You rocket your neighbor, expect consequences.

Norman Finkelstein
I’ll tell you why.

Benny Morris
Expect consequences.

Mouin Rabbani
But that works both ways.

Norman Finkelstein
Yes.

Benny Morris
I know, and I accept that, it works both ways.

Norman Finkelstein
Professor Morris. I’ll tell you why. Because every human rights, humanitarian and UN organization in the world-

Benny Morris
They’re all irrelevant.

Norman Finkelstein
… has said that the blockade-

Benny Morris
You keep quoting them. Nobody cares about Amnesty.

Norman Finkelstein
… is a form of collective punishment-

Benny Morris
Nobody cares about Amnesty.

Norman Finkelstein
… which is illegal under international law.

Benny Morris
Forget illegal. The word illegal is…

Norman Finkelstein
You think a blockade which-

Benny Morris
You don’t understand the way the world works. These things are irrelevant.

Norman Finkelstein
And you think confining, because that’s the blockade-

Benny Morris
Yes, you don’t shoot rockets at your neighbor.

Norman Finkelstein
… confining a million children-

Benny Morris
That’s the choice of Hamas.

Steven Bonnell
Children?

Benny Morris
That’s Hamas’ choice.

Norman Finkelstein
Confining a million children in what The Economist calls a human rubbish heap-

Benny Morris
The Economist supported Israel in this war, and continues to support Israel.

Norman Finkelstein
Okay. What International Committee of The Red Cross called a sinking ship, what the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights called a toxic slum, you think-

Benny Morris
It is a slum, of course it’s a slum, but it’s caused by the Hamas.

Norman Finkelstein
… under international law, you think it’s legitimate-

Benny Morris
Forget the law.

Norman Finkelstein
Hey, I know you want to forget the law.

Benny Morris
What about morality? Forget the law, what about morality?

Norman Finkelstein
It’s what every Israeli fears the most.

Benny Morris
What?

Norman Finkelstein
The law.

Benny Morris
No, no, no.

Norman Finkelstein
As Tzipi Livni said, “I studied international law. I oppose international law.” Of course you don’t want to hear about the law.

Benny Morris
That has got nothing to do with anything.

Norman Finkelstein
Okay, so here’s the thing. Then don’t complain about October 7th.

Benny Morris
Do you hear me complaining? I didn’t complain.

Norman Finkelstein
If you want to say forget about the law-

Benny Morris
All I said was they acted like barbarians.

Norman Finkelstein
… when there is no international humanitarian law, there’s no distinction between civilians and combatants-

Benny Morris
There should be, but it’s got nothing to do with the law.

Norman Finkelstein
Now you’re doing what Mouin said, you’re becoming very selective about the law. If you want to forget about the law-

Benny Morris
People should be [inaudible 04:37:51].

Mouin Rabbani
Across the board.

Norman Finkelstein
… Hamas had every right to do what it did. It had every right to do what it did according to you, not to me, because you want to forget the law.

Steven Bonnell
Do you still support the Houthis shooting random ships?

Norman Finkelstein
Absolutely.

Steven Bonnell
Okay, that’s a violation of international law, so you play the same game.

Norman Finkelstein
Absolutely. And were there are power during World War II who had the courage of the Houthis, were there are power that had that kind of courage-

Steven Bonnell
So courageous to be bombing merchant ships while tens of thousands of people die of actual starvation, not the starvation that exists in the Gaza Strip where people before October 7th don’t die of starvation. Not the concentration camp, as they say of the Gaza Strip. The Houthis.

Benny Morris
What about starvation in Yemen? Don’t that have something better to do?

Norman Finkelstein
That was the Houthis.

Benny Morris
Yes, I know. Don’t they have anything better to do?

Norman Finkelstein
That was the Houthis, and you know in three years they blew up 180,000 people.

Benny Morris
Shouldn’t they be feeding the Yemenis?

Norman Finkelstein
You know, 60,000 Yemenis died in starvation?

Benny Morris
Why fight the western powers in Israel when you should be taking care of your problems at home, the Houthis.

Mouin Rabbani
Often the only allies of the dispossessed are those who experience similar circumstances.

Benny Morris
Don’t you think that they should take care of the Yemeni problems?

Mouin Rabbani
As I said-

Norman Finkelstein
I’m very happy they’re helping out the Palestinians.

Benny Morris
It’s at the expense of the Yemenis. They’ll pay for it.

Norman Finkelstein
Anybody who comes to the aid of those suffering the genocide-

Benny Morris
There’s no genocide.

Norman Finkelstein
… half of whom are children… Yeah, according to the most current UN reports, as of today-

Benny Morris
There’s no genocide.

Norman Finkelstein
… one quarter of the population of Gaza-

Benny Morris
Is starving.

Norman Finkelstein
That means 500,000 children-

Benny Morris
Are starving,

Norman Finkelstein
… are on the verge of famine.

Benny Morris
They keep saying on the verge of.

Steven Bonnell
On the verge of. Didn’t you quote that they said it was unlivable?

Benny Morris
I have not seen one Palestinian die of starvation in these last four months. Not one.

Mouin Rabbani
There have been documented cases.

Benny Morris
They are always on the verge. They’re on the verge.

Mouin Rabbani
There have been documented cases.

Benny Morris
I haven’t seen any.

Steven Bonnell
Yesterday Al Jazeera said six, and the day before that they said two, so those are the two.

Benny Morris
That number probably dies in Israel of starvation also.

Mouin Rabbani
I don’t think there’s famine in Israel.

Norman Finkelstein
You’re so laid back, so blasé.

Benny Morris
There isn’t. There isn’t in the Gaza Strip either. It’s something which is produced for the Western-

Norman Finkelstein
“I haven’t seen any starving children yet.”

GalaxyBrain [they/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Destiny is an idiot but his debate partner is genuinely evil and I want him dead

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

yeah Destiny has the excuse of arrogant ignorance typical of an amerikkkan, though in the 99th percentile of such chauvinistic bullshit. Benny Morris is an accredited historian whose own work contradicts his worldview, an unrepentant Zionist ghoul who is aware and complicit.

GalaxyBrain [they/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Dude just totally spouts off nazi party line speech like it’s cool and normal. He has looked the gruesome facts in the eye and decided to defend them. That is pure evil, I was going to say ‘pure, cold, black hearted evil’ for emphasis but backspace, cause that’s wrong. Cold, blackhearted evil is too fucking good. He is full on emotionally invested, bleeding heart evil. That’s what we’re facing. People who are so passionate about evil a nitwit could mistake it for the passion that generally drives people to do good. This not only underlies the danger of such an evil that it poses so easily as righteous fervor, but to possess it in oneself is to truly have taken the demon seed within your very soul and nature that lacking any metaphysical woo shit, is the closest one can be to becoming a literal demon. This is the worst kind of person.

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

the qualitative chasm between people on the side of the population having war crimes done to them saying ‘international law is meaningless’ and the people on the side of the war criminals saying ‘international law is meaningless’ is fucking oceanic. Like, is this your fucking own? Is this your bit? ‘you cannot do shit to us, fuck all of you, we’ll keep killing, we have nukes’ is real fucking convincing. A publicly untenable position. You do not come out of a debate where you put that in the record a winner, any wins you have copped from that become pyrrhic and turn all your weaselly rhetorical dancing into ash. A genuinely psychotic ideology where you think that’s acceptable to say in a medium where you are trying to convince people.

GalaxyBrain [they/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Which, in all honesty, is how the world works, international law means Jack fucking shit based on just whsts currently happening not to even speak of history coughs Iraq really clearly. And yeah, any oppressor is for sure going to attempt to apply that double standard, comes with the territory of doing atrocities, that’s all pretty standard and being mad at hypocrisy is gonna get you no where. But holy fucking hell, have the decency to be cynical about it.

I think it was in the newer Brace interview episode of True Annon where Israel is reaaaally letting the mask slip internationally as more and more of their internal propaganda/True national sentiment has really managed to get through and the rhetoric that is used within Israel has been shown outside of the country and it’s this disgusting combo of pathetic use of what democratic voters like to hear and see authentically combined with full on ethnic cleansing talk with no filter. You can only play the victim while openly and passionately endorsing an extermination campaign before it unravels. Lucky for them public opinion also means nothing sontheyre probably feeling comfortable as hell doing this.

silent_water [she/her]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Dude just totally spouts off nazi party line speech like it’s cool and normal.

literally. Hasan dug up a quote from Goebbels that matched nearly word for word, at one point. it was shocking coming from a historian who knows exactly what he’s doing because, as was shown extensively in the debate by Norm, his own work lambasts his present position.

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

transcript cont. 2

(04:40:08)
Norman Finkelstein
I think Human Rights Watch called it using starvation as a weapon. That’s called engineering.

Steven Bonnell
That’s what they did, but you were pushed on this by Coleman Hughes to bring up an example of why is the Gaza Strip, by what metric are they starving? By what metric is it so behind the rest of the world?

Mouin Rabbani
If we’re going to bring up-

Steven Bonnell
I want to hear an answer to that, because he didn’t answer it before.

Norman Finkelstein
I’m happy to answer it. I just quoted you from the humanitarian organizations. They said one quarter of the population of Gaza is now verging on famine.

Steven Bonnell
Before October 7th.

Norman Finkelstein
I’m not going before October 7th.

Steven Bonnell
But you used that as justification for Hamas fighting. You said the conditions were unlivable, they had to fight.

Norman Finkelstein
I said to him-

Steven Bonnell
So my question is what made it unlivable prior to October 7th? What are the metrics that you’re using?

Norman Finkelstein
There were about five, six or seven reports issued by UNCTAD, issued by the World Bank, issued by the International Monetary Fund, and they all said that’s why.

Steven Beetlejuice
Why? Why did they say that?

Norman Finkelstein
That’s why The Economist, not a radical periodical, described Gaza as a human rubbish heap.

Steven Bonnell
So tell me by what metrics? If you’re a historian, if you do all this work to get to things, tell me what they said. Don’t just tell me a sentence, tell me by what metric.

Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Bonnell.

Steven Penalty
He’s not going to answer again.

Norman Finkelstein
I don’t think I’ve avoided any of your questions-

Steven Farelli
Of course you have, you’ve avoided every question.

Norman Finkelstein
… except when they breached the threshold of complete imbecility.

Steven Bonnell
So you were about to tell me by what metric the Gaza Strip is a humanitarian crisis.

Norman Finkelstein
I’m going to answer you. You remember what I said a moment ago, I said to Professor Morris, I defer to expertise? I look at what the organizations say. I look at what the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said.

Steven Borelli
You’re saying in more words that you don’t know. You don’t know or you don’t care.

Norman Finkelstein
And I don’t know.

Steven Farelli
Okay, that’s fine. That’s what I said.

Norman Finkelstein
Have you ever investigated how complicated is the metric for hunger, starvation, and famine? It is such a complicated metric they figured out, if you asked me to repeat it now, I couldn’t do it.

Steven Morelli
And yet we have a Human Development Index where we rank countries, yet we can still measure infant mortality-

Norman Finkelstein
Okay, you go and call the news programs.

(04:47:09)
Mouin Rabbani
Well, I would expect nothing less from someone who doesn’t think Jim Crow is apartheid, but who does think that Arab states not giving Palestinians-

Steven Bonnell
The problem is you’re morally loading. For you apartheid is when racists do bad things.

Mouin Rabbani
No. There’s a definition of apartheid.

Steven Bonnell
That’s great.

Mouin Rabbani
There is a very clear definition of apartheid.

Steven Bonnell
A specific top-down racial domination, enacted through top-down, like federal legislative policies or whatever, means that I don’t know if Jim Crow would have qualified for apartheid. That doesn’t make it any less…

Norman Finkelstein
Have you ever heard of Plessy versus Ferguson?

Steven Bonnell
Excuse me. Finkelstein, I’m talking right now. Excuse me, excuse me Twinklestein, I’m talking to your friend over here. I don’t know if it would have qualified as the crime of apartheid, just like if Israel were to literally nuke the Gaza Strip and kill two million people, I don’t know if that would qualify for the crime of genocide.

Mouin Rabbani
In your eyes probably not.

Steven Bonnell
Well, yeah, but because genocide requires a special intent. I think the issue is, instead of… And I think this conversation actually is emblematic of the entire conversation.

Mouin Rabbani
Then let me finish answering Benny Morris’s question.

Steven Bonnell
Well sure, but you accused me of supporting racism.

Mouin Rabbani
Well, you did.

Steven Bonnell
I didn’t.

Mouin Rabbani
And you are.

Steven Bonnell
Do you think I support Jim Crow laws?

Mouin Rabbani
Look, when-

Steven Bonnell
The fact that you can’t even answer that honestly, right?

Mouin Rabbani
It doesn’t matter what-

Steven Bonnell
You couldn’t say that 800 civilians were killed by Hamas, you said, “Well, maybe 400 were killed by Israel. I don’t know the number, maybe-

Mouin Rabbani
No, I didn’t say that.

Steven Bonnell
You said 400.

Mouin Rabbani
No, I didn’t say that.

Steven Bonnell
You co-signed the opinion.

Mouin Rabbani
No, I didn’t.

Norman Finkelstein
No, he didn’t. He said the majority [inaudible 04:48:20].

Steven Bonnell
Well, wait, how many? I think the word was some, that’s what I heard.

Norman Finkelstein
No, I think your memory-

Mouin Rabbani
Well, you weren’t listening.

Norman Finkelstein
… your memory’s [R-SLUR]. D:

Steven Farelli
How many people do you think approximately, if you had to ballpark it, how many do you think were killed by Hamas on October 7th?

Mouin Rabbani
I think it’s pretty clear that the majority of civilians that were killed on-

Norman Finkelstein
That’s what he said.

Steven Bonnell
51%? Or 90%?

Mouin Rabbani
Don’t ask me to put a number on something I don’t know.

Steven Bonnell
I just want a ballpark. Those are two very different intuition.

Mouin Rabbani
First of all, when you say Hamas, do you mean Palestinians, or do you mean Hamas specifically?

Steven Bonnell
I mean the invading Palestinian force? I don’t like to say Palestinians, because I don’t think all Palestinian civilians were involved, so I’ll say Hamas, Islamic Jihad, whatever, Al Quds, whatever other-

Mouin Rabbani
But that’s how this discussion started. You said Hamas and I began to answer that, and then Benny Morris said, actually he means Hamas in addition to Jihad and the others.

Steven Bonnell
So of the invading Palestinian force, how many do you think killed civilians versus the IDF? What do you think the ballpark, the percentage?

Mouin Rabbani
Well, the figures we have are that about a third of the casualties on October 7th were military, and about two-thirds were-

Steven Bonnell
That’s not what I asked at all.

Mouin Rabbani
What’s your question?

Benny Morris
He’s asking about the two-thirds.

Steven Bonnell
What percentage of civilians do you think were killed by the invading force, a ballpark?

Mouin Rabbani
I think a clear majority, but I can’t give you a specific figure.

Steven Weaselly
If you thought it was closer to 51% or 99% were killed by-

Norman Finkelstein
Why would he know that? How would he know that?

Steven Bonnell
Because it’s interesting to actually stake out a position.

Norman Finkelstein
Yeah, it’s interesting-

Steven Bonnell
If you want to be completely, totally agnostic on it, that’s fine.

Norman Finkelstein
Based on complete ignorance, because we don’t know. Professor Morris doesn’t know, Mouin Rabbani doesn’t know.

Steven Bonnell
And yet you can speak with absolute certainty that the IDF is targeting and murdering Palestinian children intentionally.

Norman Finkelstein
Well, actually-

Steven Bonnell
Do you see the double standard?

Norman Finkelstein
No, I don’t. You see-

Steven Bonnell
I know you don’t. It was a rhetorical question, obviously you don’t.

Norman Finkelstein
You know why?

Steven Bonnell
Because you’re uneducated on the matter.

Norman Finkelstein
I looked at the UN report.

Steven Bonnell
Uh-huh. The Goldstone Report?

Norman Finkelstein
No. The UN report on the great march of return in 2018, and they said that the snipers were targeting children, medics, journalists, and disabled people.

Mouin Rabbani
Just as they are now in this conflict.

Norman Finkelstein
Exactly.

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

transcript cont. 3

(cont.)
Mouin Rabbani
More journalists have been killed in the last several months in Gaza, than in any other conflict.

Norman Finkelstein
And in all of World War II.

Steven Bonnell
Do you acknowledge that Hamas… That’s great, the comparison is fun.

Mouin Rabbani
Hamas is not killing journalists in the Gaza strip.

Steven Bonnell
Do you agree that they operate in civilian uniforms, that their goal is to induce that confusion, that that’s the way that they conduct themselves militarily?

Mouin Rabbani
Let me finish my point. More journalists have been, more UN-

Steven Bonnell
I understand, and more children, and the-

Norman Finkelstein
He doesn’t want to hear it, it’s so boring.

Steven Bonnell
No, because it’s virtue signaling.

Norman Finkelstein
Virtue signaling!

Steven Bonnell
You don’t have a material, a substantial… It is virtue signaling. Yes, like when you say children, over and over again, that’s virtue signaling.

Mouin Rabbani
You know you have this habit of mocking the dead.

Norman Finkelstein
But talking about how many Israelis were killed, that’s not virtue signaling, because that’s human life.

Steven Bonnell
I don’t care if a hundred are killed or a thousand, I’m curious who you’re assigning blame to.

Norman Finkelstein
You just interrogated him, 51%, 90%.

Steven Bonnell
The question, yes, that’s not the number, that’s the responsibility, Norman.

Norman Finkelstein
And then Mouin mentions that more journalists were killed in Gaza than in all of World War II.

Steven Bonnell
That doesn’t further any part of the conversation.

Norman Finkelstein
And more medics were killed in Gaza.

Benny Morris
No, that’s silly.

Norman Finkelstein
And then he says, it’s virtue signaling.

Benny Morris
Journalists weren’t in the area.

Norman Finkelstein
But when Israelis get killed, that’s serious.

Steven Bonnell
I never said that. It’s serious on both sides. I didn’t say, respectfully-

Mouin Rabbani
It’s called [inaudible 04:51:29].

Norman Finkelstein
No, you called it virtue signaling.

Steven Morelli
No, I’m not virtue signaling, I’m asking a substantive question of who do you assign blame to, or do you play into Norm Finkelstein’s conspiracies that the ambulances should have known immediately who was dead, that the numbers were changed because they were fake.

Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Borrell, Mr. Borrell-

Steven Bonnell
Or that maybe 51% of the people were killed by Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but 29% were killed by IDF helicopters.

Mouin Rabbani
You asked me a direct question, and you got a direct answer.

Steven Bonnell
I didn’t, I got majority, which could be anything from 51 to 99.

Mouin Rabbani
I said a clear majority.

Benny Morris
What percent is a clear majority as opposed to a majority?

Steven Berelli
They live in ambiguity.

Mouin Rabbani
A clear majority, in my view, is well over 50%. Please don’t ask me to be more precise, because I can’t.

Benny Morris
You could say 80, 90, 95%.

Mouin Rabbani
If I knew that, I would say it.

Benny Morris
I think it’s reasonable. It’s a reasonable supposition.

Mouin Rabbani
Perhaps it is, but I…

Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Morris, you are not the best person to be asking that question. I read when you described Operation Defensive Shield, and you said a few dozen homes were destroyed.

Benny Morris
You’re talking about what happened in a Judean refugee camp.

Norman Finkelstein
Yeah. And you said-

Benny Morris
No, the Arabs said 500.

Norman Finkelstein
You said a few died-

Benny Morris
You guys said 500 Palestinians were killed in a Judean-

Mouin Rabbani
I never said that.

Benny Morris
No, but that was the statement from the PLO, the Palestinian Authority.

Norman Finkelstein
You said a few dozen homes-

Benny Morris
And that there were massacres there. Yes, a few dozen homes.

Norman Finkelstein
Yeah.

Benny Morris
That’s right.

Norman Finkelstein
Well, it turned 140 buildings were destroyed-

Benny Morris
That’s a few dozen.

Norman Finkelstein
… 5,000 people were left homeless.

Benny Morris
How many people were killed?

Norman Finkelstein
5,000.

Benny Morris
How many were killed?

Norman Finkelstein
You described it… No, I’m talking about homes destroyed. So you are not the best person to be criticizing what Mouin says when he says clear majority, but he can’t say more. You know why he can’t say more?

Benny Morris
He doesn’t know.

Norman Finkelstein
He doesn’t know.

Benny Morris
Yeah, I understand that. I understood that point.

Norman Finkelstein
I hope as a historian you understand that.

Mouin Rabbani
If I was trying to belittle, I would give you a very different answer. I would just say I don’t know. I do know that some were shot, but-

Benny Morris
You know what the right phrase there would be? The overwhelming majority were killed by Arab gunmen, and a very small number were killed by Israelis by accident or whatever.

Norman Finkelstein
You’re not speaking as a historian now.

Benny Morris
That’s probably true.

Mouin Rabbani
I can state with confidence, a clear majority. Overwhelming majority? You may be correct, but I can’t state that with certainty. I think there’s a very easy way to find out is to have an independent-

Benny Morris
Forget independent.

Mouin Rabbani
Well, of course you forget independent.

Norman Finkelstein
I know you want to forget the law-

Benny Morris
Well forget, that doesn’t mean anything.

Norman Finkelstein
Forget the law-

Benny Morris
Independent is the UN High Commission for-

Norman Finkelstein
– forget the independent commissioner. No!

Benny Morris
… Human Rights, whatever it’s called.

Mouin Rabbani
Not necessarily.

Norman Finkelstein
Just repeat the numbers.

Benny Morris
They’re all from barbaric countries. You know, a Syrian was the head of the UN Commission for Human Rights.

Mouin Rabbani
But if it was an Israeli, it would have been okay?

Benny Morris
He certainly would have been more honest than a Syrian.

Norman Finkelstein
Oh yeah, sure, of course.

Mouin Rabbani
Of course. Oh yeah, from your perspective.

NewAcctWhoDis [any]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Norman Finkelstein Well, it turned 140 buildings were destroyed-

Benny Morris That’s a few dozen.

What the fuck

WhyEssEff [she/her]@hexbear.net · edit-2 8 months ago

four off from being a dozen squared

my brother-in-YHVH you cannot pull that word game here

nemoTheCatfish [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

4 off being definitionally “gross”

Philosoraptor [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

They’re all from barbaric countries

panopticon [comrade/them]@hexbear.net · 8 months ago

Benny Morris They’re all from barbaric countries. You know, a Syrian was the head of the UN Commission for Human Rights.

Mouin Rabbani But if it was an Israeli, it would have been okay?

Benny Morris He certainly would have been more honest than a Syrian.

wow

compilation of best bits from that debate where the man who has no place in a room gets reminded he has no place in said room (cw: israeli crimes and the violence that comes with it)

compilation of best bits from that debate where the man who has no place in a room gets reminded he has no place in said room (cw: israeli crimes and the violence that comes with it)

Transcript for Israel-Palestine Debate: Finkelstein, Destiny, M. Rabbani & Benny Morris | Lex Fridman Podcast #418 - Lex Fridman

CONTINUED IN COMMENT BELOW