Sure, but liberals are still left wing, and saying they’re not is just making enemies out of other left wingers, with is a long standing left tradition.
You’d all get so much further if you recognised allies in one area don’t have to be allies in all areas. You can all have your own opinions and work together where it suits you towards set goals, rather than name calling, “no true Scotsman”-ing and in fighting. It honestly feels like the right have infiltrated the left at times, and just turned them on each other.
America and the rest of the Western world use liberal completely differently. We have a self enforced two party system in the US so it’s real easy to boil everything down to an either/or fallacy.
At any rate we’ve stuck all the civil rights stuff, public goods, and people based governance under the tag of liberalism. And all the pro corporate stuff, anti rights, and privatization under Conservatism.
The biggest shift in that paradigm in the last 20 years has been a collective realization that both parties believe governance should favor corporations.
Aren’t you literally doing the thing you accused them of? Deriding their entire ideology? It’s almost like you aren’t an ally and you’re just lying through your teeth!
Not sure I agree with your categories. I think you’re conflating stances on globalisation with econonic and social issues. I’m a left wing voter and I support pretty much all the things you listed
Well, neoliberalism isn’t just that, it’s also “privatization, deregulation, monetarism, austerity, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society”
So you can’t really be a leftist and support neoliberalism. We’re seeing the catastrophic results now.
That was rather my point. You define neoliberalism in the way I do. And I vehemently oppose it, so defined. But the post I responsed to defined it more as an issue of globalisation which is a different topic imo
Leftist - I own personal objects. Large things are owned communally. I have human rights.
Liberal - I own anything I can buy. If the law sees me as a person then I have human rights.
Conservative - I own personal objects. Large objects are owned by a predetermined elite. I do not have human rights. Even the elite only have as many rights as they have power.
This stood me well in my poli sci studies but obviously it’s hilariously top level and actual ideologies take more than a couple sentences to categorize. But this effectively covers OG Liberalism and Conservatism with Leftist ideas in their own category. Also any system of categorization is doomed to fail in the end because it’s actually a 5d shifting plane of color shades out there. Like going from leftist to totalitarian or liberal to effectively wanting a king again while still talking about liberal stuff.
Libs and leftists are different
Sure, but liberals are still left wing, and saying they’re not is just making enemies out of other left wingers, with is a long standing left tradition.
You’d all get so much further if you recognised allies in one area don’t have to be allies in all areas. You can all have your own opinions and work together where it suits you towards set goals, rather than name calling, “no true Scotsman”-ing and in fighting. It honestly feels like the right have infiltrated the left at times, and just turned them on each other.
I’ve never met a liberal who was left of center
In what world are liberals left wing? Here in Europe liberals are all considered centrists. Even the ones that are for the well-fare state.
America and the rest of the Western world use liberal completely differently. We have a self enforced two party system in the US so it’s real easy to boil everything down to an either/or fallacy.
At any rate we’ve stuck all the civil rights stuff, public goods, and people based governance under the tag of liberalism. And all the pro corporate stuff, anti rights, and privatization under Conservatism.
The biggest shift in that paradigm in the last 20 years has been a collective realization that both parties believe governance should favor corporations.
I think I’d contest at least the pro corporate stuff and privatization parts of this.
At a mininum, US liberals have a codependent relationship with corporate and private entities. If not flat-out pro-capitalist relationship.
I should have been more clear. When I said “we’ve stuck…” I meant that’s the idea most people have. Not that that’s what’s actually happening.
There is a wide gulf between political history and ideologies and party politics.
Capitalists are not left wing.
You don’t get to gatekeep “left wing” behind your nonsense failed ideology.
I don’t think he invented dialectical materialism
So all of the other leftwing ideologies are anti capitalist, but that’s not the thing that makes them leftwing? What is?
Aren’t you literally doing the thing you accused them of? Deriding their entire ideology? It’s almost like you aren’t an ally and you’re just lying through your teeth!
Words have meaning bud
They do, and you are making them up.
No they are center left or center right essentially being capitalist populist movements.
Yeah…
ITT: people who are in a state of BBQ flavored confusion.
Lemmy help y’all out.
leftist: some socialist policies, universal healthcare, publicly funded education, jobs programs, ubi, abolition, etc…
liberal: voting rights, property ownership, access to banking, civil liberties
neo liberal: global access to markets, global tade, international standards bodies, world banks, world courts, trade agreements.
Not sure I agree with your categories. I think you’re conflating stances on globalisation with econonic and social issues. I’m a left wing voter and I support pretty much all the things you listed
But I can see how people end up with those ideas. Media sucks at teaching actual stuff.
Well, neoliberalism isn’t just that, it’s also “privatization, deregulation, monetarism, austerity, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society”
So you can’t really be a leftist and support neoliberalism. We’re seeing the catastrophic results now.
That was rather my point. You define neoliberalism in the way I do. And I vehemently oppose it, so defined. But the post I responsed to defined it more as an issue of globalisation which is a different topic imo
Ah sorry, I misunderstood.
Leftist - I own personal objects. Large things are owned communally. I have human rights.
Liberal - I own anything I can buy. If the law sees me as a person then I have human rights.
Conservative - I own personal objects. Large objects are owned by a predetermined elite. I do not have human rights. Even the elite only have as many rights as they have power.
This stood me well in my poli sci studies but obviously it’s hilariously top level and actual ideologies take more than a couple sentences to categorize. But this effectively covers OG Liberalism and Conservatism with Leftist ideas in their own category. Also any system of categorization is doomed to fail in the end because it’s actually a 5d shifting plane of color shades out there. Like going from leftist to totalitarian or liberal to effectively wanting a king again while still talking about liberal stuff.