Additionally, what changes are necessary for you to be able to use Linux full time?
I got tired of everything taking so much effort. I was almost always able to eventually wrangle what I wanted out of the OS, but every change I wanted to make and thing I wanted to try needed so much searching and learning. I wanted stuff that just worked, even if it was “dumber.”
That, and some parts of the community I ran into were really prickly. One that was especially memorable: I was asking for help on a big-ish project with a lot of followers and helpers and didn’t expect the lead dev to answer my question, but when he did, he felt the need to make a snide as hell comment about how I have no business being there if I’m going to forget to start a service. On top of the exhaustion I was already feeling, I had a massive moment of “okay my guy, I guess I’ll just fucking leave then.”
Anyway, it just feels better being a poweruser on windows. I know enough to keep it clean, safe, and slim (like using powershell to disable the bits they don’t expose to a settings UI, for example) – to truly admin my machine – without having to work so hard for it day in and day out.
Unfortunately, those kinds of interactions are inevitable when the developer/user relationship is so close. And it goes both ways. I saw a thread just yesterday where a user reported an issue on github, a second user said they saw it too. Later the first user posted a workaround to the issue, and the second user came back with “took you long enough”, and that was the end of the exchange.
Some people in the world are just dicks, but that doesn’t mean we should reject interacting with everyone. Similarly, a community of user-maintained software is going to have some asshats, but that doesn’t mean we should hand our computing freedom over to one or two corporations. Just my two cents.
Unfortunately everyone has a limit for how much work they’d like to put in.
Some people in the world are just dicks, but that doesn’t mean we should reject interacting with everyone.
Corollary: Your personal aversion to corporations doesn’t mean users have have any motivation or obligation to keep trying when we’re getting pushback from both the software and those who maintain it.
Anyway, I’m not sure how you got that I reject interacting with everyone after my experience, but extrapolating my statement to that kind of extreme phrasing sure doesn’t fill me with confidence about future interactions, either.
Hey there, I think we got off on the wrong foot. I’m not discounting anything you’re saying, I agree that it’s definitely a very real phenomenon, and didn’t intend to provoke a defensive response. I didn’t say that you were “rejecting interacting with everyone”, on the contrary, I’m saying that in the physical world you deal with people who act like dicks, but you specifically DON’T reject interacting with everyone. I’m drawing a parallel between that behavior in the physical world with how I believe we should also behave in the digital one.
I also did not say that I have any personal aversion to corporations, I owe most of my daily comforts to corporations, so I would be a hypocrite to say as much. But if I had said that “I don’t think we should stick our hands in blenders” that doesn’t mean I have a personal aversion to blenders.
Cheers
I still can’t really agree that the comparison holds; we try harder in real life because the bar for being a dick is (usually) higher. On the internet, when all it takes is a few easy sentences to be a dick to a faceless stranger whose reaction we don’t have to see… to me, the response should be equally fluid, else we get bogged down being the only one putting in the effort and taking a constant beating to our self-esteem when we wonder why no one is bothering to hear us.
However, I appreciate you being chill about clearing up what you meant. I did initially miss the comparison you were going for and feel like I was getting cereal box therapy about not cutting people off (and thus staying in toxic communities) when that wasn’t what you meant.
Cheers back.
I hear you, perhaps there is a fundamental difference there with the digital world.
I really want to see some linux distro get to the point that users don’t have to wonder if something has gone horribly wrong for them. As much as I do disapprove of some of Apple’s repairability policies, and as much of a toxic human being Jobs was, Steve Jobs really was a visionary. He saw that if you paid attention to detail, you could turn a computer into something that “just worked” for people who weren’t tech savvy. Until that point, it was engineers selling to other engineers, they just couldn’t see the potential that technology had. As far as I can tell, the linux world has never had someone with such a relentless vision for user experience. I personally think it’s because the opportunity for profit just isn’t there, or at least no one sees it.
But there was a time when buying a windows license meant you got a copy of windows and that was it; now no matter what you do it’s full of ads and telemetry and constant popups about new features you never asked for. I would gladly pay the price of a windows license for a linux distro that was as thought out and usable as an Apple or Windows product in their prime, and maybe we’re entering a window (no pun intended) of time where that’s finally possible.
Yikes, that is why I hate tech forums. Too many times I’ve asked an informed/thought out question I’m unable to find via search and the first replier basically says “hey go FUCK yourself.”
I work in IT, this is how a lot of engineers and administrators are to be honest. I hate the dick measuring contests in my field.
Hahaha, SO TRUE!!
Currently my experience with 3D printing. It’s one thing after another, and the community, at least on Reddit and Facebook, fucking sucks. If I ask a question, it’s always “hey how about you go fuck yourself” or an essay that has zero relevance to what I’m asking. Made a post on Reddit the other day (I know, but have a single burner account until the 3D printing community here takes off more) and just asked to see some settings due to just constantly having issue after issue. Half of the responses were people just telling me they’re not fucking wizards and they need to know what kind of problems I’m having. I… didn’t ask for that whatsoever. I very explicitly just asked for someone’s slicer settings to compare to.
That’s absolutely the worst help forum experience, when you’re asking one question but everyone extrapolates the question they think you REALLY meant to ask and talks down to you about it.
And of course if you try to steer the conversation back to your actual question, you get painted as the unreasonable one placing all sorts of conditions on the generous free help others are allowed to bestow upon you.
The less reliance on others Linux requires, the better off it will be for general adoption.
Haha your second paragraph sums it up perfectly. A few folks did share their settings, but they were for completely different printers/hardware haha. Most of the online guides I’ve found are written under the assumption that you’re already a master at the hobby, and it’s strangely spread out in random little nooks of the internet - there’s not really a ton of centralized discussion forums. Maybe the hobby is way smaller than I thought, or maybe I’m just in way over my head, but I fix tech problems for a living - did not expect this to be as much of a challenge. Never buy a 3D printer if you value your sanity and living stress-free. Sorry, I just needed to rant for a minute haha.
Most of the online guides I’ve found are written under the assumption that you’re already a master at the hobby
I’ve had exactly the opposite experience lol. Most of the stuff out there is dreadfully basic, and if you want detail like scientific comparisons of the strength-weight ratios of different infill patterns, good fuckin luck. Some chum on YouTube will have some half baked experiments and that’s as good as it gets.
Yeah 3D printers are fussier than I expected. Especially when printing anything involving supports and more specifically… small areas that need supports. I print a lot of stuff for D&D and have just started cutting things up into pieces with blender to print easier, then glue it together
I will say. My first thought was obviously to ask what printer you have, to see if I could send you my profile for you to compare (depending on the slicer you use). Then my second was to ask if you’re having issues and if so, what the issues are.
Only because sometimes a seemingly large issue could be a very small fix.
When I first started, I got it working great and then out of no where nothing would stick to the bed. I spent more time than I’d like to admit messing with settings only to realize it was the oils on my hands causing adhesion issues. Some 99% IPA fixed all my issues real quick haha.
That would be awesome! I’ve got an Ender 6 with a Micro Swiss NG extruder. I was printing decently with the stock hardware, but that stock extruder was a nightmare and kept slipping or completely losing grip on filament mid-print, so I upgraded to this extruder. Now I’m just trying to find that perfect spot to where it extrudes but doesn’t grind filament. I’ve been having some really messy prints.
I just had a feeler gauge arrive in the mail, so I’m about to use that to try leveling the bed more accurately. Everyone says to just use a piece of paper or something, but different paper is different widths haha.
I do have a PEI bed, so stuff sticks and comes off way easier now, but I would love to check out your slicer settings to get a good baseline! What kind of hardware do you have, and which slicer do you use?
everyone extrapolates the question they think you REALLY meant to ask and talks down to you about it
It’s true, but the “X-Y problem” is real.
The question may be “what’s the best way to do X”, when they actually want to do Y and they concluded, erroneously, that X is the best way to do it. Responders suspect this, so they want to steer the questioner to a best explanation to find out if that’s the case, just to watch the questioner’s tantrum when the immediate answer is not what they expect.
Speaking only for myself, if I want to know the best way to do Y, I ask about how I can do Y. If I’m at the stage where I’ve moved on to asking about how to do X, there’s a reason I want to approach the problem that specific way – personal preference, limitations of my setup, learning a new approach, whatever else – and I’m not there to get into some asinine argument defending my choice, I’m there to find out how to do X.
So while I’m well aware of the thought process behind it, I will never not find it incredibly disrespectful to disregard the question being asked in order to make snarky little guesses at intent and answer a totally different question.
This, of course, assumes perfect understanding on your part. That could be a mistake, specially as you are, you know, asking for help.
The standard “come prepared with a good question” is simply not as hard for a savvy user to meet as you’re making it out; certainly it’s far easier than scrying between the lines and derailing the topic on purpose, and it strikes me as arrogant that anyone would trust their own attempts at mind-reading more than the clear words on the page. I’ve got a very good idea why you’re taking this all so personally that you’re replying to it three weeks after any of it was active.
Well, at least the very fact that you’re taking it personally means it dug deep enough that you’re aware it’s a problem, even if you still have a bit of a journey before you accept it needs a change.
The standard “come prepared with a good question” is simply not as hard for a savvy user to meet as you’re making it out
Your mistake is presupposing a savvy user.
I’ve got a very good idea why you’re taking this all so personally that you’re replying to it three weeks after any of it was active.
Please enlighten all of us about the procedure granting you telepathy, or shut the fuck up.
did you level your bed first!?
I’ve found this same type of animosity and superiority all over tech forums in general.
You’re not wrong, but running Linux directly correlates to more time spent on “tech forums in general,” so it’s still a bigger problem with that OS than others imo.
Jeez that is nasty. What project was it?
I was trying to run my own personal-use instance of LiveJournal back 20 years ago when it was open source (and not owned by Russia). Just to see if I could, as is the spirit of a tinkerer.
There was a handful of paid staff as well as a bunch of enthusiastic volunteers, so I expected one of them to answer a low-priority newbie support request, not… what I got.
Unfortunate, but to be fair, things have changed a lot in 20 years.
There are definitely still angry linux nerds on forums, but I think the experience is a lot more streamlined.
Shit never works and I basically have to become a programmer and expert in CLI to get shit to work… until it breaks again. So after having to Google everything on how to do supposedly simple shit, I always end up going back to Windows and GUI’s because I don’t have time to become a developer.
It just doesn’t work. It’s a simple as that. Things are constantly breaking. When they do I look up support articles that are written in fucking Klingon and sent to the terminal to type in commands that always return some sort of generic error “command not found” or some shit because the solution is written for a different one of the 862700422 available distros.
I have no idea how to install all the different program types (flathub, db, appimage, etc.). Windows has exe. I click “install” and boom, it’s done.
Sometimes I try to remove software in the package manager and it acts like it is uninstalled but it’s still fucking there.
I can’t even select a file because there are no previews. Just a gazillion blue squares with names like “dlcosn_3947912947”.
And other reasons, but I digress. I don’t have time to learn a new career, I just want a computer that works.
I have to have a computer science degree to install a peice of software… I just wanna double click the installer icon. I don’t want to have to write out some long String in terminal to install software. And sometimes it’s different depending on distro.
Most major distributions come with a software center of some kind. And with Flatpaks, AppImages, and gag Snaps, it pretty much is just click and install these days.
What’s wrong with snaps? I’m giving Linux another go so I’m still learning. I’m trying Ubuntu on an ancient iMac right now but I also have Pop!_OS in a vm on my windows pc to play with. I haven’t installed anything on pop but I noticed Ubuntu had snaps.
Snaps are proprietary to Canonical (Ubuntu). Historically, they were larger, slower to load, and generally slower overall to use With a good SSD and system, I’m not sure that’s the case anymore though.
Ohh. Thanks for that info. Proprietary stuff and forced ads are two of the biggest things pushing me away from windows right now so that’s good to know.
I have to have a computer science degree to install a peice of software
No you don’t, you can search on wikipedia what a computer science degree actually is.
There have been “app store” frontends for most distributions since at least 2012, and packagekit has the same CLI on every major distribution.
Everyone in this thread saying shit like that hasn’t tried Linux since 2004
"I don’t want to have to write out some long String in terminal to install software. "
I’m no expert, but isn’t it literally just apt get (name of software) to download and install through terminal?
I wouldn’t force the issue. Some people belong on Windows and I’d rather they don’t use Linux simply because I don’t want them complaining to developers that it doesn’t act like Windows. Linus Tech Tips already caused enough damage by doing exactly that.
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It is much easier, os long as that version is in main repo. If not, it can still be easy (run this one extra command), or you are gonna pull your hair out trying to figure out how to install some antique proprietary software on fedora, using an installing guide made for Ubuntu 16.04. :)
Fortunately VMs are fast to set-up.
Necessity. When most of the software you use is reliant on Windows it’s hard to make Linux your daily driver. That being said, the changes needed to make it worth it are already done in limited contexts. Steam deck is pure Linux, the user interface and everything is implemented in a way that the user does not have to deal with the complexity, but the underlying mechanisms for doing wonky shit is still there if you want to mess with it. It’s kinda the best of both worlds in that sense.
If we wanted a desktop experience to replicate that, you would just have to do the exact same thing. Abstract the user experience such that the layperson does not need to engage with the complicated bits, but leave them there for those that do want them. And arguably that is being done with some distros, but it’s just not quite there yet.
Steam works flawlessly with Linux now. If you have an Nvidia GFX card then you can even get a Pop!_OS install with the driver pre-configured. It’s pretty rad!
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Is Steam a necessity of yours? Do you work in the videogames industry?
No, and I explained that steam works perfectly fine on Linux.
Broken bootloader.
Got a long one. I’ve gone back and forth a few times (I’ve landed on a dual-boot Windows 10 and Arch setup, maining Arch) (btw) and my biggest takeaway is this:
Mainstream Linux distros, like Mint, do have admittedly very polished basic experiences. The problem is, though, is that it breaks down as soon as you introduce it to unique use-cases or hardware features.
Linux, specifically stable distros like Mint, are already ready for mainstream use for people who use it for basic stuff like email, web browsing, desktop social media like Facebook, and so on. It’s also very usable for gaming, as we saw with Steam Deck, but still has issues primarily with adoption.
But if you have for example, a 2-in-1 laptop or a VR setup, things break down very quick. I had to configure my 2-in-1 manually and not everything works still, and VR is a joke if you don’t have a Vive or Index, and even that’s iffy. SteamVR is still extremely buggy and missing features.
Linux is, by design, configurable and open. This is both its greatest strength and weakness, because it allows users to set up their systems how they want, but only if they know how to. A truly “user-friendly” distro is simply not possible if you retain the configurability, which Valve knows, and is why SteamOS is locked down the way it is. This model is growing in popularity but it’s not quite here yet.
At the end of the day, I still use it despite these shortcomings because I feel it’s important. I should be able to look at the code and know what my machine is doing, and trust that it respects my rights and freedoms. This is why Linux, and maybe BSD, have to win. But for now, I still have a drive with Windows 10 because it’s just simply not a full experience yet, and that’s okay. For now
I really, really want to love Linux.
Mate introduced me to Red Hat in the very late 90s and I keep trying various distros every year or two - last time was about 2020 so my views here might be a bit out of date now…
When Ubuntu launched I truely believed this would be the start of genuine transformation. While I do see the overall progression in modern distros - installing them is easier than ever - but at its core, it just doesn’t seem to truely improve when it comes to usability and user friendliness. As others have said, small changes or issues might require hours of research or a game of copy/paste/pray with commands found on a long lost forum page.
MS make plenty of mistakes and dumb changes but windows has had significant improvements over the years both to the interface but also functions:
W2k/XP dragged us kicking and screaming out of DOS and into the modern era.
Vista made much needed changes to security/driver issues - but it was still a slow pig - particularly updating.
Win7 fixed what Vista should have been - faster, cleaner and simpler, BSoD mostly a thing of the past now driver manufacturers have caught up from Vista fixed updates a bit.
Win8.1 improved boot speeds, had a lot of good under the hood changes that improved deployment and self-repair, good tools for power users (we just don’t talk about that start menu)
Win10/11 greatly improved the updating process - still far from perfect but significantly faster and more reliable. No longer the upgrade lottery it was in XP - 7 era.
Not wanting to start a fight here, just my perspective - unfortunately, every time I install Linux, the visuals look good but it always feels like a fancy modern skin over top of something akin to Win98. Sure, it’s fast, secure as a MF and not riddled with modern bloat but genuine advancement of the platform feels absent.
Maybe it’s because I don’t live elbow deep in Linux like I have in windows desktop for the past 20+ years. I do know that it’s versatility and power is incredible - from phones and Pi’s to world class infrastructure, so maybe that’s it. It’s designed for maximum power and flexibility that it’s not really suited as a general purpose desktop for the masses like windows. It might always remain as a oddity at the desktop level, insanely powerful in the right hands and just a little too complex and less refined to appeal to those not willing to go deep into really learning it.
My primary desktop is Windows 11, but literally no other computer I personally own runs Windows. Part of it is games, part of it is proprietary software (music production, dj, etc). I could probably game on Linux full time, but until the commercial software situation is improved I will always have an additional Windows or Mac computer.
Gaming
There’s plenty of games that are native to linux not made by companies trying to empty your wallet. https://libregamewiki.org/Main_Page
It’s more of a “why do I keep Windows on my main machine and only use Linux for my servers?”
The answer is two-fold
a) most of my games and a (dwindling) amount of productivity software are windows based. I know things are improving… But the fact remains that I am still literally invested in some software that is only supported on Windows (that pile is shrinking).
b) there are a few everyday tasks that are still just too frustrating to be practical for non-technical people. For example, why in the fuck do I need to deal with user and mod permissions for files on an external harddrive? I get why for system files, but for media files on an external drive? It’s a level of pedantry I’m just not ready to deal with.
I got tired of having to endlessly maintain it, vs windows which generally just works (no fighting with audio drivers, wifi drivers, gpu drivers, suspend to disk works without glitching, etc) and i like playing video games without having to deal with wine. Still run linux on servers, and my work desktop and laptop are linux since we have an IT department which maintains it for me.
I tried to install a package and apt started uninstalling my desktop. Maybe if I didn’t panic and hit Ctrl-C I would have gotten all the packages it was removing replaced with shiny new ones? I doubt it somehow.
All the customization you can do is neat, but after that I was pretty much done with fiddling with my OS and finding FOSS versions of stuff I was already used to and wanted something that would just work. These days I have a small form factor PC with Mint that I run some server apps on, but I’m holding off on making it my daily driver again until Microsoft really puts the screws on the consumer.
That seemed to be a major bug in POP_OS at one point, the youtuber Linus Tech Tips fell victim to it while trying it and it ended up being patched VERY fast
I’ll add one bit of info from me. I’ve installed aptitude on Mint, as it was supposedly the best package dependency conflict resolver. I don’t remember what conflict I had, but when I launched aptitude to fix that broken package, it begun to uninstall every package. After reinstall, I’ve been using Mint as computer for modifying bootloaders in phones, and some minor works, returning to modified windows 10.
I’m not the OS police, seems like using windows is kinda reasonable given your experiences with Linux
Tbf I’ve had a similar thing happen like 6 years ago. I’ve been using Linux still but at the time I didn’t have much going on that system outside of a few games so it just turned into a long reinstall weekend. I forget exactly what happened but I also had another issue where I tried to install KDE Plasma desktop environment and it completely nuked my system. Idk if it was a user error or what.
I’m still a Linux fanboy but it’s not without its own set of issues. I try to be a bit more careful in the terminal after all that and I haven’t had any major issues since. I do need to do a fresh install sometime in the near future though.
My OS kept stalling/crashing on boot-up a few months into using it and I could not figure out why or how to fix it. Couldn’t log in or input any commands into the terminal to try out anything so I just gave up.
Luckily my important data was backed up and I had Windows on another drive. I thought the drive might have failed, but it hasn’t had any issues since on Windows. I’d love to return to Linux in the future but I think that experience wil haunt me for a while.
This entire thread looks like everyone who stopped using Linux over 2 or 3 years ago should have another look at it, so many (now) none-issues.
