• slurpyslop@kbin.social
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    7 months ago

    iā€™d say trying to start a sanction-bloc on the icc for attempting to stop said genocide is being pretty aggressive about it, as is continuing to block any un-led action, as is continuing to send arms

    which do you disagree with?

    • biden is supporting genocide
    • voting for a hypothetical candidate supporting genocide is voting in support of genocide

    The rest of your comment is inane prattle.

    i know you wanted to do the olā€™ switcheroo but it doesnā€™t really work when you responded to everything in my comment

    • bobburger@fedia.io
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      7 months ago

      i know you wanted to do the olā€™ switcheroo but it doesnā€™t really work when you responded to everything in my comment

      Mea culpa.

      Biden is not supporting The Genocideā„¢ that people started paying attention to once it became a trendy thing to talk about on Tiktok, The Genocideā„¢ that you seem to be concerned with. The Genocideā„¢ that benefits Netanyahu and Putin.

      By virtue of being an American citizen Biden is culpable for the slow burn genocide that Palestinians have been subject to since 1948ish. The same genocide that you are also culpable of and are equally in support of.

      Most of Bidenā€™s actions are political theater to not alienate Jewish voters and the powerful AIPAC. A group that he desperately needs to win reelection because progressives donā€™t reliably vote.

      The ICC has never stopped a genocide in its entire existence, so to say that sanctioning the ICC is aggressively supporting The Genocideā„¢ is just not true. The ICC could send out charges and arrest warrants for every politician in Israel without America ever lifting a finger and it would have absolutely no impact on The Genocideā„¢, positive or negative.

      UN action is equally useless, so whatever action you think would have stopped The Genocideā„¢ that Biden blocked it wouldnā€™t have done shit.

      Israel and Netanyahu have made it clear that they will continue the invasion into Gaza with or without US military support, so any arms we may have given Israel have no impact on their willingness to wage war.

      What other specious evidence of aggressive support do you have?

      As a last point, voting for a candidate doesnā€™t mean you support all of that candidates actions or views. Thatā€™s why Republicans do so well; Republican voters have one or two issues they agree with passionately (immigration, gun control, abortion restrictions, etc.) and vote enthusiastically for the candidate that supports their thing regardless of the candidates other positions.

      On the other hand progressives/leftists/whatever pick a hill to die on, and if a candidate disagrees with them a little bit on that issue they will refuse to vote for the candidate regardless of how many other positions they agree on.

      The genocide debate is a perfect example; people like you have convinced yourself that Biden supports genocide so you refuse to vote for him because you disagree about that one point. No matter what other points you may agree on, or how much more Trump supports genocide and other positions you disagree with, people like you refuse to vote for Biden and in the end Trump gets elected. Real take my ball and go home energy.

      • slurpyslop@kbin.social
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        7 months ago

        The ICC has never stopped a genocide in its entire existence

        What genocide has the US stopped since the creation of the ICC?

        UN action is equally useless

        The UN absolutely has teeth. It just canā€™t use them because Biden canā€™t stop vetoing them.

        As a last point, voting for a candidate doesnā€™t mean you support all of that candidates actions or views.

        If somebody hates racism, but gets tricked into voting for Trump by Black Voices for Trump, would you say theyā€™re voting in support of racism or not?

        you disagree about that one point

        Itā€™s almost comical that you can be so flippant about genocide. ā€œItā€™s just one genocide guys, come on.ā€

        Thatā€™s why Republicans do so well; Republican voters have one or two issues they agree with passionately

        So youā€™re arguing itā€™s good to be a single issue voter?

        On the other hand progressives/leftists/whatever pick a hill to die on

        So youā€™re arguing itā€™s bad to be a single issue voter?

        • bobburger@fedia.io
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          7 months ago

          They are two different kinds of single issue voters.

          Republican single issue voters get their get their candidate elected by strongly supporting them because of a single issue.

          Progressives also help get the Republican candidate elected by refusing to vote for Biden because they strongly oppose one issue.

          The neat part is the progressive is helping the Republican get elected who is usually even farther off the issue than the Democratic candidate.

          But hey, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THE GENOCIDEā„¢. If you donā€™t vote for Biden The Genocideā„¢ will stop instantly and youā€™ll be guilt free because you didnā€™t vote for it. But at the same time you wonā€™t have to feel guilt for any of the bad shit that comes with a Trump presidency for reasons.

          If somebody hates racism, but gets tricked into voting for Trump by Black Voices for Trump, would you say theyā€™re voting in support of racism or not?

          I canā€™t say what they are voting in support of regardless of how they vote. That was painfully clear. Iā€™ll say it explicitly: voting for a candidate doesnā€™t mean you support any of the candidates positions. It just means more of their positions align with yours than the other candidate.

          Do you think neo-nazis that want the death penalty for race mixing support Trumpā€™s brand of racism? Or do you think theyā€™re voting for Trump because they know heā€™s closer to what they want than Biden and they know their 3rd party candidate has no shot of ever getting elected?

          The UN will save them!

          Tell that to the Rohingya.

          • slurpyslop@kbin.social
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            7 months ago

            They are two different kinds of single issue voters.

            this all started from mental gymnastics, and youā€™re currently trying to straight up claim that single issue voters are in general effective for the republicans but ineffective for the democrats becauseā€¦reasonsā€¦?

            Iā€™ll say it explicitly: voting for a candidate doesnā€™t mean you support any of the candidates positions

            For the record, youā€™re still strawmanning my position, as you have been the entire time. I donā€™t know whether this is out of malice or a plain failure of comprehension, butā€”againā€”voting in support of something is not the same as supporting it. Your neo-nazis are voting in support of Trumpā€™s specific brand of racism.

            That said, your response to the hypothetical means you believe your intention is the only important thing in how you exercise your voting right. In which case, what are we doing here? People who arenā€™t voting for Biden because of his stance on Palestine arenā€™t intending to get Trump elected, so theyā€™re blameless, right?

            Tell that to the Rohingya.

            The US also didnā€™t save them, so I donā€™t know what point youā€™re trying to make here.

            • bobburger@fedia.io
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              7 months ago

              The mental gymnastics youā€™re doing to dodge these very simple and straightforward points would make Neo in the matrix proud.

              this all started from mental gymnastics, and youā€™re currently trying to straight up claim that single issue voters are in general effective for the republicans but ineffective for the democrats becauseā€¦reasonsā€¦?

              Itā€™s a pretty simple concept. Iā€™ll use a pizza analogy since kids love pizza.

              Republican voters love pineapple on pizza, but we donā€™t have any pineapple pizza. The Republican voter says ā€œthatā€™s okay, Iā€™ll have the supreme pizza because itā€™s pretty closeā€. So the single issue Republican voter gets pizza and the Republican candidate gets elected.

              Progressives voters love anchovies on pizza, but we donā€™t have anchovy pizza, we only have pepperoni pizza. The progressive voter says ā€œfuck off, I donā€™t want your shitty pizza without anchoviesā€ and then shits all over the pizza. So the progressive single issue voter gets no pizza, no one else gets pizza, and the Democratic candidate doesnā€™t get elected.

              In this case eating pizza is voting for the candidate, not eating the pizza is not voting for the candidate. The Republican single issue voter votes and helps the Republican get elected. The progressive single issue voter doesnā€™t vote, doesnā€™t help the Democratic candidate get elected, and since we have first past the post elections in America he helps the Republican get elected.

              If you want to pretend like you still donā€™t get I understand. Youā€™ve intentionally missed the basic concept so many times that you it would be pretty silly to admit you understand now.

              • slurpyslop@kbin.social
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                7 months ago

                The Republican voter says ā€œthatā€™s okay, Iā€™ll have the supreme pizza because itā€™s pretty closeā€. So the single issue Republican voter gets pizza and the Republican candidate gets elected.

                compromise with a middle ground is literally the opposite of single issue and itā€™s insane that youā€™re still trying to pretend it isnā€™t

                single issue isnā€™t ā€œham is kind of like pepperoniā€

                single issue is ā€œpepperoni or i donā€™t eat pizzaā€

                republican voters only want pepperoni

                • bobburger@fedia.io
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                  7 months ago

                  I think weā€™re very close, I now have hope we can get on the same page with this at least.

                  There are two types of single issue voters. Weā€™ll call them type 1 and type 2. We call them single issue voters because it is a single issue driving their voting choice.

                  Type 1 single issue voters care a lot about an issue. So they vote for which ever candidate is closest to their view on that issue. They compromise on that issue and their other views to vote for whoever is closest. These single issue voters help their candidate win.

                  Type 2 single issue voters also care a lot about one issue. Except if a candidate disagrees with their view even a little bit, they refuse to vote for the candidate. Even if the voter and the candidate agree on nearly everything else, this single issue prevents the voter from casting a vote for the candidate. These single issue voters help the candidates opponent to win.

                  A lot of Republican voters are type 1 single issue voter.s

                  A lot of progressives are type 2 single issue voters.

                  An example (or a strawman if you prefer):

                  Iā€™m a type 1 single issue voter. I disagree with Joe Biden on many issues, but I vote for him because heā€™s closest to my views on climate change. So I vote for Joe Biden in support of my goals for climate change. I am helping Joe Biden win. (Iā€™m not really a single issue voter, but this is a strawman)

                  You are a type 2 single issue voter. You oppose The Genocideā„¢, so you are abstaining from voting (or maybe voting 3rd party because the 3rd party candidates have never had to decide whether or not to support The Genocideā„¢). Because we have a first past the post voting system, and you were a potential vote for Biden, you are helping Trump win.

                  I donā€™t know if you would vote for Biden if Israel hadnā€™t invaded Gaza, but I think you get the point . It is after all a simplified example intended to quickly convey a point.

                  • slurpyslop@kbin.social
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                    7 months ago

                    They compromise on that issue and their other views to vote for whoever is closest.

                    so hypothetically, you think single-issue gun control republicans are willing to compromise on gun control?

                    or a strawman if you prefer

                    literally not even the part you were strawmanning and you very obviously know that

                    you mysteriously dropped that half of your argument idk why