lmao, this would be like if the Columbine shooter had already killed a bunch of kids, and then Sweden handed him a bunch more guns and ammunition and said “but don’t you use it to kill kids, ok?”
Right but Sweden also didn’t give the Columbine shooter the weapon after they said “I’m gunna kill all these people”. Why do you think those situations are at all close? And do you really think people aren’t blaming Israel?
anyway, since ‘they don’t need us’ is being used to justify supplying additional arms to a genocidal state, really seems like that’s the claim that should be sourced.
No one is “justifying” anything. Bad faith argument
An opinion piece and a sketchy blog aren’t really the type of sources I was looking for. To make this bold claim, you’d think you had something like an official in government in either country at least implying its truth
People who argue against you don’t have to be rabid genocide lovers. Typically they are just disagreeing with implied conclusions. Such as “the Democrats are the real ones to blame here [so don’t vote for them]”
Edit: you totally sidestepped the point I made. Regardless if the US bears some responsibility here, OP constantly says they are primarily responsible, which indicates a specific intention. One that people are upset about. But y’all pretend everyone against that intent supports genocide
No one is “justifying” anything. Bad faith argument
Really? I could have sworn I had just read someone downplaying the US’s culpability in the genocide… Maybe I’m projecting someone else’s argument onto you, maybe I should just pose it as a question to get your take:
The US is culpable in Israel’s genocide because the US is supplying the weapons being used to slaughter innocent Palestinians, and there is no justification for the US (regardless of administration) continuing to supply arms to Israel while they are actively involved in genocide.
Would you agree with that statement? If not, why?
People who argue against you don’t have to be rabid genocide lovers. Typically they are just disagreeing with implied conclusions. Such as “the Democrats are the real ones to blame here [so don’t vote for them]”
I think I can help clarify this, actually. The explicit conclusion is: “the Democrats share the responsibility for Israel’s genocide because they are materially supporting and enabling its continuation.”
There is no conclusion (explicit or implicit) about how this should inform your vote, because -as you’ve alluded- there is no way to vote that does not indirectly enable further genocide. Some people seem more upset about that than others, but that’s not really relevant to the question being asserted.
could have sworn I had just read someone downplaying the US’s culpability in the genocide
You know this is false. Disputing how blame is distributed is not “justifying”, and “downplaying the US’s culpability in the genocide” is not “justifying” even if I were doing that. They are not primarily responsible, and you know it’s true, and you know that was what I said. Also, “downplaying” implies a thin fake attempt, but I’m hiding nothing whatsoever. Unlike those hoping to sway the US election. If you people would ever criticize where Trump stands on Israel (which btw is required if you’re being fair or care about Gazans), you’d get basically no pushback. But you specifically want to ever avoid doing that, and get mad at those who do.
The US is culpable in Israel’s genocide because the US is supplying the weapons being used to slaughter innocent Palestinians, and there is no justification for the US (regardless of administration) continuing to supply arms to Israel while they are actively involved in genocide.
I would not need to address this. Not only is it obvious af that the US providing the weapons is bad, you pretending people are saying otherwise was the topic.
there is no way to vote that does not indirectly enable further genocide
Yeah, this is the lie that pisses off honest people who want to limit suffering (and not burn the US to the ground). You know for sure that voting in a way that reduces Trump’s chances limits the suffering of Palestinians. The only way to do that is voting for Harris. So if you care about Gazans in the slightest, you will make it known that Trump is worse, every chance you get, instead of never mentioning it and rejecting it every time it’s brought up. If you made that clear, we would have zero beef. The sudden surge in “genocide lovers” disappears from your life. On Lemmy, you might spot 1-2 people per week actually defending Israel. Not hundreds which you’re trying to paint as all supporters of genocide.
Look at OP’s history. 10 months of posting many times a day, always about this topic, very often laying all the blame on democrats and sometimes advocating for Jill Stein. I’ve called their shit many times, they always deflect.
Yeah, I know a lot about their history as far as online posters go.
Edit: don’t bother covering for them. I won’t respond. Just remembered you from before.
Their views on voting third party are wrong. But to act like the Democratic administration isn’t the being complicit in by militarily funding an ongoing genocide and has no blame is straight up untrue, at the very least from the perspective of international law. Democratic voters advocating for their administration/ representatives to stop funding a genocide is both moral and democratic
The US is currently sending weapons to Israel, who are actively engaging in genocide. This is illegal by international law, both the the sending of military aid used for genocide and the genocide itself.
Under international law, the US is complicit and culpable when it comes to Israel’s genocide, by providing the military weapons for said genocide. Do you disagree?
In this comparison, Sweden isn’t “selling” weapons to “Americans”. It’d be more like Sweden was gifting guns directly to the shooter, right after that shooter had already killed a bunch of kids.
The IDF is not an individual. The US provides arms to Israeli soldiers just as Sweden provides arms to American civilians. The US is not identifying individual soldiers who have killed Palestinians.
Are we suggesting IDF soldiers are unaccountable to the IDF or Israel? Are we suggesting the Israeli genocide is just a bunch of rogue Israeli civilians acting on their own volition?
What a weird line of defense, comparing war crimes committed by a nation’s military to mass shootings committed by unaffiliated civilian terrorists acting on their own.
You should blame the people using those weapons.
A Swedish made TEC-9 was used to kill Columbine students. That doesn’t make Sweden responsible for the Columbine massacre.
lmao, this would be like if the Columbine shooter had already killed a bunch of kids, and then Sweden handed him a bunch more guns and ammunition and said “but don’t you use it to kill kids, ok?”
Right but Sweden also didn’t give the Columbine shooter the weapon after they said “I’m gunna kill all these people”. Why do you think those situations are at all close? And do you really think people aren’t blaming Israel?
OP does, but only secondarily. They always present it like the US is the primary party to blame.
The only reason Israel is able to continue their genocide is the promise of unconditional US support.
Gotta source for that? I know you don’t.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/06/biden-middle-east-strikes-israel
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h1wp1rncp
anyway, since ‘they don’t need us’ is being used to justify supplying additional arms to a genocidal state, really seems like that’s the claim that should be sourced.
No one is “justifying” anything. Bad faith argument
An opinion piece and a sketchy blog aren’t really the type of sources I was looking for. To make this bold claim, you’d think you had something like an official in government in either country at least implying its truth
People who argue against you don’t have to be rabid genocide lovers. Typically they are just disagreeing with implied conclusions. Such as “the Democrats are the real ones to blame here [so don’t vote for them]”
Edit: you totally sidestepped the point I made. Regardless if the US bears some responsibility here, OP constantly says they are primarily responsible, which indicates a specific intention. One that people are upset about. But y’all pretend everyone against that intent supports genocide
Really? I could have sworn I had just read someone downplaying the US’s culpability in the genocide… Maybe I’m projecting someone else’s argument onto you, maybe I should just pose it as a question to get your take:
The US is culpable in Israel’s genocide because the US is supplying the weapons being used to slaughter innocent Palestinians, and there is no justification for the US (regardless of administration) continuing to supply arms to Israel while they are actively involved in genocide.
Would you agree with that statement? If not, why?
I think I can help clarify this, actually. The explicit conclusion is: “the Democrats share the responsibility for Israel’s genocide because they are materially supporting and enabling its continuation.”
There is no conclusion (explicit or implicit) about how this should inform your vote, because -as you’ve alluded- there is no way to vote that does not indirectly enable further genocide. Some people seem more upset about that than others, but that’s not really relevant to the question being asserted.
You know this is false. Disputing how blame is distributed is not “justifying”, and “downplaying the US’s culpability in the genocide” is not “justifying” even if I were doing that. They are not primarily responsible, and you know it’s true, and you know that was what I said. Also, “downplaying” implies a thin fake attempt, but I’m hiding nothing whatsoever. Unlike those hoping to sway the US election. If you people would ever criticize where Trump stands on Israel (which btw is required if you’re being fair or care about Gazans), you’d get basically no pushback. But you specifically want to ever avoid doing that, and get mad at those who do.
I would not need to address this. Not only is it obvious af that the US providing the weapons is bad, you pretending people are saying otherwise was the topic.
Yeah, this is the lie that pisses off honest people who want to limit suffering (and not burn the US to the ground). You know for sure that voting in a way that reduces Trump’s chances limits the suffering of Palestinians. The only way to do that is voting for Harris. So if you care about Gazans in the slightest, you will make it known that Trump is worse, every chance you get, instead of never mentioning it and rejecting it every time it’s brought up. If you made that clear, we would have zero beef. The sudden surge in “genocide lovers” disappears from your life. On Lemmy, you might spot 1-2 people per week actually defending Israel. Not hundreds which you’re trying to paint as all supporters of genocide.
Do you know their whole history(you may, I don’t know)? This is just one post and it’s just a link to an article.
Look at OP’s history. 10 months of posting many times a day, always about this topic, very often laying all the blame on democrats and sometimes advocating for Jill Stein. I’ve called their shit many times, they always deflect.
Yeah, I know a lot about their history as far as online posters go.
Edit: don’t bother covering for them. I won’t respond. Just remembered you from before.
Their views on voting third party are wrong. But to act like the Democratic administration isn’t the being complicit in by militarily funding an ongoing genocide and has no blame is straight up untrue, at the very least from the perspective of international law. Democratic voters advocating for their administration/ representatives to stop funding a genocide is both moral and democratic
… Ok. Way to pretend to get it but then make up shit I didn’t say to argue against.
Maybe I misunderstood.
The US is currently sending weapons to Israel, who are actively engaging in genocide. This is illegal by international law, both the the sending of military aid used for genocide and the genocide itself.
Under international law, the US is complicit and culpable when it comes to Israel’s genocide, by providing the military weapons for said genocide. Do you disagree?
Sweden is still selling weapons to Americans. Americans are still using them to shoot each other.
In this comparison, Sweden isn’t “selling” weapons to “Americans”. It’d be more like Sweden was gifting guns directly to the shooter, right after that shooter had already killed a bunch of kids.
The IDF is not an individual. The US provides arms to Israeli soldiers just as Sweden provides arms to American civilians. The US is not identifying individual soldiers who have killed Palestinians.
Are we suggesting IDF soldiers are unaccountable to the IDF or Israel? Are we suggesting the Israeli genocide is just a bunch of rogue Israeli civilians acting on their own volition?
What a weird line of defense, comparing war crimes committed by a nation’s military to mass shootings committed by unaffiliated civilian terrorists acting on their own.
I’m suggesting that the one responsible for a killing is the one who pulled the trigger. Or in the case of the military, the one who gave the order.
“the one responsible is […] the one who gave the order”
ok so back to your analogy, the US would be handing guns and ammunition the ‘one responsible’, then?
In the same sense that Sweden gave weapons to those responsible for Columbine.