I reject your analogue. There have been no āpublic statements about private negotiationsā with the GOP. We donāt know the GOP toāve made ANY negotiations.
That was the hypothetical side of the analogue. Them announcing that they wonāt be endorsing is similar to a union announcing negotiations have failed and they going on strike - an action that materially damages their companyās income and is (in some ways) a violent means to escalating the issue. The union is definitionally an appendage of its parent company; them āleaving to work for a different companyā just doesnāt make sense, itād be like an arm cutting itself off at the shoulder.
I never said āunions shouldnāt target democrats at all with direct actionā, Iām saying actions that directly aid another party, where that other party is the modern GOP, are fucking stupid.
āNonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.ā
If any action that hurts a democratic campaign is outside the bounds of acceptable direct action to you, then this is precisely where our disagreement is. Electing not to endorse the democratic ticket is the lightest possible criticism one could possibly make.
You went on about issues that rust belt union members are having. But the Democrats donāt control the rust beltā¦the GOP does. And they are fucking over their own union constituents.
Look, I already told you I had no interest in having this debate with you. We are clearly not seeing eye to eye.
Rust belt unions are less concerned with expanding union protections than they are concerned with their industry going bankrupt. A coal mining union isnāt concerned with having better legal protection for going on strike, theyāre concerned that the entire coal industry is getting replaced elsewhere by renewables and wont have anyone to negotiate with.
I already said that the PRO act is an excellent bill, and that dems should be campaigning on it, but thatās simply not why theyāre losing union support in the rust belt. Millions of americans are afraid that theyāre going to loose their livelihoods to changing economic priorities, and democrats are allergic to taking any action that addresses that fundamental apprehension because theyāre terrified of being called socialist.
Why arenāt the teamstersā¦openly mad at the GOP? The party of people who, in your own words, would āaccuse [democrats] of being radical socialistsā for proposing action that helps working class people?
Because the democrats havenāt proposed anything that actually addresses their concerns, and theyāre frustrated that the things democrats have proposed are targeted in other places of the economy and callously ignores their material interests. Theyāre convinced that democrats will never solve their problems - but the GOP is promising to preserve their industries by passing tarrifs, removing environmental protections, stopping the growth of renewables and tech that threaten to put them out of businessā¦ And those are simple, believable solutions to their problems. You and I understand that those are problematic in a million different ways, but from their perspective everyone else seems to be fucking over everyone else to get their bag, so why not them? Democrats simply donāt have a response to that, especially when theyāre insistent on stopping short of breaking with neoliberal economic policy.
Iām exhausted by having this same conversion over-and-over again. Moderate democrats have this way of middling their way out of grasping the underlying issues voters are experiencing and instead try to bandaid over huge gaping wounds, then cry bloody murder when voters donāt act as grateful as they think they should. Liberals are never going to understand why theyāre losing support if they arenāt able to even conceptualize the concerns of the working class in small-town economies.
To address your first 3 paragraphsā¦youāre acting like all I care about is OāBrienās non endorsement. I guess Iāll spell out the thing Iāve said in every single comment on this thread: Not endorsing democrats = fine. Not endorsing democrats + speaking at the RNC and NOT directly calling them out on their bs = fucking stupid. You keep treating the non-endorsement like itās in a vacuum. And you can disagree with my math, but if you continue to pretend that this isnāt what Iām saying, then youāre just straw-manning me.
Rust belt unions are less concerned with expanding union protections than they are concerned withĀ their industry going bankrupt. A coal mining union isnāt concerned with having better legal protection for going on strike, theyāre concerned that the entire coal industry is getting replaced elsewhere by renewables and wont have anyone to negotiateĀ with.
Yes, itās understandable that workers feel like they wonāt survive if their industry diesā¦but in the specific case of coal, the solution isnāt to bolster that industry. Much of the solution is to create new jobs in growing industries that coal workers could transfer into, and to set guarantees that those new jobs arenāt exploitative. Democrats have fought, withĀ real action,Ā to do both the former, and the latter (I wonāt source the latter again, read any of my pro-union sources).
I already said that the PRO act is an excellent bill, and that dems should be campaigning on it,
Yes, and not only do they campaign on it - they consistently vote in favor of it. But go on.
but thatās simply not why theyāre losing union support in the rust belt. Millions of americans are afraid that theyāre going to loose their livelihoods to changing economic priorities, and democrats are allergic to taking any action that addresses that fundamental apprehension because theyāre terrified of being called socialist.
Yes, I get their fear. And thatās why the liberal solution to those fears is making it easier to switch jobs and to provide better childcare, healthcare, housing, food, unemployment, all on top of pro-worker reformā¦all LEFT-LEANING policies that the modern GOP will NEVER ENDORSE.
It sounds like youāre just trying to explain what many workers see as the solution. They think the tried-and-true solution is to bolster their industries, instead of all the stuff I just listed. But thatās a conservative solution to the problem.
It sounds like you want the democrats to have liberal policies in general, which is what I want too. But what, in your head, does OāBrien want? If he wants conservative industry-first policies, then AOC isnāt punching left at the guy, end of story. And if heĀ actuallyĀ wants liberal, boosting-quality-of-life-policies (the kinds of policies I want and you seem to want), then heās an idiot or a coward, or both, for not getting mad at the modern GOP for spinning all of that negatively as socialism.
Because the democrats havenāt proposed anything that actually addresses their concerns, and theyāre frustrated that the things democratsĀ haveĀ proposed are targeted in other places of the economy and callously ignores their material interests. Theyāre convinced that democrats will never solve their problems - but the GOP is promising to preserve their industries by passing tarrifs, removing environmental protections, stopping the growth of renewables and tech that threaten to put them out of businessā¦And those are simple, believable solutions toĀ theirĀ problems. You and I understand that those are problematic in a million different ways, but from their perspective everyone else seems to be fucking over everyone else to getĀ theirĀ bag, so why not them? Democrats simply donāt have a response to that, especially when theyāre insistent on stopping short of breaking with neoliberal economic policy.
Youāre not addressing the subtlety that whileĀ theyĀ feel democrats arenāt proposing good solutions, and whileĀ youĀ seem to feel democrats arenāt proposing good solutionsā¦your solutions and their solutions are different. Youāve said you want more of the kinds of solutions theyād call āradical socialismā. (I want those solutions too, but imo Democrats are already working on it, they just have an uphill battle against conservatives.) (And sure, many conservative workers probably just donāt realize that theyād love those solutions, too, but in the meantime theyāre duped into supporting the GOP and their worse, pro-some-industries, anti-other-industries solution.) Are you under the impression that the reason OāBrien isnāt capitulating to democrats is theyāre not embracing those solutions? Do you think that when OāBrien cozies to the GOP, that heās secretly trying to get the GOP on board with those solutions? When thereās negative evidence of that?
Iām exhausted by having this same conversion over-and-over again. Moderate democrats have this way of middling their way out of grasping the underlying issues voters are experiencing and instead try to bandaid overĀ hugeĀ gaping wounds, then cry bloody murder when voters donāt act as grateful as they think they should. Liberals are never going to understand why theyāre losing support if they arenāt able to even conceptualize the concerns of the working class in small-town economies.
If youāre trying to say that pro-worker policy is the bandaid, and widespread policies that provide better childcare, healthcare, housing, food, and unemployment areĀ yourĀ solution, then I donāt disagree, other than that pro-worker policy isnāt as much a band-aid at it is part of that solution. But if thatās OāBrienās solution, then heās a bad leader for helping the republicans who reject that solution. If thatās not OāBrienās solutionā¦then attacking his leadership isnāt āpunching leftā.
Iām not engaging with this anymore, youāve obviously not understood my perspectives here (intentionally or not).
Iām speaking to a very specific set of material conditions that a particular subset of the electorate is experiencing and liberal policies fail to address, and youāve dismissed them yet again. Itās extremely calloused to ignore the economic hardships experienced by these workers when the industry that supports them and their community is broken into pieces and replaced by another, and I donāt think youāre in the right place to see or acknowledge those. Maybe thatās just a function of where we are in the election cycle. A part of the way capitalism works is by holding the means of survival hostage to coerce labor to protect it, and when democrats turn a blind eye to the trap those people are stuck in it solidifies reactionary political perspectives.
I donāt give a shit what OāBrianās personal politics are or what Teamsters endorsement or platforming at the RNC means to the democratic campaign. He represents a segment of the population that is experiencing conditions not addressed by current or proposed democratic policies, and heās using his platform to put pressure on both parties to address them by dangling Teamsterās influence, and I think thatās a fine (good, even) strategy.
Iām not engaging with this anymore, youāve obviously not understood my perspectives here (intentionally or not).
Youāre free to choose not to engage any further. But Iād wager to say you havenāt understood my perspective either. At least Iāve tried to make sense of what youāve said so far, and provide citations to enforce my perspective. I get the sense that you think you have an insight into unions and working class people that I could never fathom, or something like that. Hopefully Iām wrong.
Iām speaking to a very specific material conditions that a particular subset of the electorate is experiencing and liberal policies fail to address, and youāve dismissed them yet again.
Okayā¦so you believe that liberal policies canāt address the problems of certain people? That seems bizarre, given what you said a few replies up:
The more socialized benefits available to small town workers, the less pressure there will be to remain employed in a dying industry. That includes childcare, healthcare, housing, food; basically everything theyāre afraid to campaign on because republicans will accuse them of being radical socialists.
I figured your main beliefs were in that quote, and that a lot of what youāve said thus far was just an effort to empathize with conservative-minded workers. Guess youāre a more befuddling guy than I thought.
Itās extremely calloused to ignore the economic hardships experienced by these workers when the industry that supports them and their community is broken into pieces and replaced by another, and I donāt think youāre in the right place to see or acknowledge those.
Buddy, Iām just some guy on the internet, same as you. At the end of the day we donāt really know a thing about each other. At least Iām not assuming you āfail to seeā this or āarenāt in the right place to seeā that.
Maybe thatās just a function of where we are in the election cycle. A part of the way capitalism works is by holding the means of survival hostage to coerce labor to protect it, and when democrats turn a blind eye to the trap those people are stuck in it solidifies reactionary political perspectives.
Man, I get it, you hate capitalism. Thatās okay. IMO economic systems donāt really matter nearly as much as the rules and regulations above those systems. Thatās okay, too.
I donāt give a shit what OāBrianās personal politics are or what Teamsters endorsement or platforming at the RNC means to the democratic campaign. He represents a segment of the population that is experiencing conditions not addressed by current or proposed democratic policies, and heās using his platform to put pressure on both parties to address them by dangling Teamsterās influence, and I think thatās a fine (good, even) strategy.
I donāt care what it means āto the democratic campaignā, either. I just care that he might help Trump win, because IMO thatās bad for his constituents. Trump doesnāt care about workers, teamsters included, and Harris is the successor to the guy who you canāt deny at least cared enough to give them the largest pension bailout in US history. To me, thatās whatās most practical to care about.
I donāt really know what youāre getting at, but if all youāre saying is āwow, this dude doesnāt hate capitalismā, thenā¦sure? I consider myself a social democrat.
Kind of a weird thing to fixate on. Especially after proclaiming you were done responding.
That was the hypothetical side of the analogue. Them announcing that they wonāt be endorsing is similar to a union announcing negotiations have failed and they going on strike - an action that materially damages their companyās income and is (in some ways) a violent means to escalating the issue. The union is definitionally an appendage of its parent company; them āleaving to work for a different companyā just doesnāt make sense, itād be like an arm cutting itself off at the shoulder.
āNonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.ā
If any action that hurts a democratic campaign is outside the bounds of acceptable direct action to you, then this is precisely where our disagreement is. Electing not to endorse the democratic ticket is the lightest possible criticism one could possibly make.
Look, I already told you I had no interest in having this debate with you. We are clearly not seeing eye to eye.
Rust belt unions are less concerned with expanding union protections than they are concerned with their industry going bankrupt. A coal mining union isnāt concerned with having better legal protection for going on strike, theyāre concerned that the entire coal industry is getting replaced elsewhere by renewables and wont have anyone to negotiate with.
I already said that the PRO act is an excellent bill, and that dems should be campaigning on it, but thatās simply not why theyāre losing union support in the rust belt. Millions of americans are afraid that theyāre going to loose their livelihoods to changing economic priorities, and democrats are allergic to taking any action that addresses that fundamental apprehension because theyāre terrified of being called socialist.
Because the democrats havenāt proposed anything that actually addresses their concerns, and theyāre frustrated that the things democrats have proposed are targeted in other places of the economy and callously ignores their material interests. Theyāre convinced that democrats will never solve their problems - but the GOP is promising to preserve their industries by passing tarrifs, removing environmental protections, stopping the growth of renewables and tech that threaten to put them out of businessā¦ And those are simple, believable solutions to their problems. You and I understand that those are problematic in a million different ways, but from their perspective everyone else seems to be fucking over everyone else to get their bag, so why not them? Democrats simply donāt have a response to that, especially when theyāre insistent on stopping short of breaking with neoliberal economic policy.
Iām exhausted by having this same conversion over-and-over again. Moderate democrats have this way of middling their way out of grasping the underlying issues voters are experiencing and instead try to bandaid over huge gaping wounds, then cry bloody murder when voters donāt act as grateful as they think they should. Liberals are never going to understand why theyāre losing support if they arenāt able to even conceptualize the concerns of the working class in small-town economies.
To address your first 3 paragraphsā¦youāre acting like all I care about is OāBrienās non endorsement. I guess Iāll spell out the thing Iāve said in every single comment on this thread: Not endorsing democrats = fine. Not endorsing democrats + speaking at the RNC and NOT directly calling them out on their bs = fucking stupid. You keep treating the non-endorsement like itās in a vacuum. And you can disagree with my math, but if you continue to pretend that this isnāt what Iām saying, then youāre just straw-manning me.
Yes, itās understandable that workers feel like they wonāt survive if their industry diesā¦but in the specific case of coal, the solution isnāt to bolster that industry. Much of the solution is to create new jobs in growing industries that coal workers could transfer into, and to set guarantees that those new jobs arenāt exploitative. Democrats have fought, withĀ real action,Ā to do both the former, and the latter (I wonāt source the latter again, read any of my pro-union sources).
Yes, and not only do they campaign on it - they consistently vote in favor of it. But go on.
Yes, I get their fear. And thatās why the liberal solution to those fears is making it easier to switch jobs and to provide better childcare, healthcare, housing, food, unemployment, all on top of pro-worker reformā¦all LEFT-LEANING policies that the modern GOP will NEVER ENDORSE.
It sounds like youāre just trying to explain what many workers see as the solution. They think the tried-and-true solution is to bolster their industries, instead of all the stuff I just listed. But thatās a conservative solution to the problem.
It sounds like you want the democrats to have liberal policies in general, which is what I want too. But what, in your head, does OāBrien want? If he wants conservative industry-first policies, then AOC isnāt punching left at the guy, end of story. And if heĀ actuallyĀ wants liberal, boosting-quality-of-life-policies (the kinds of policies I want and you seem to want), then heās an idiot or a coward, or both, for not getting mad at the modern GOP for spinning all of that negatively as socialism.
Youāre not addressing the subtlety that whileĀ theyĀ feel democrats arenāt proposing good solutions, and whileĀ youĀ seem to feel democrats arenāt proposing good solutionsā¦your solutions and their solutions are different. Youāve said you want more of the kinds of solutions theyād call āradical socialismā. (I want those solutions too, but imo Democrats are already working on it, they just have an uphill battle against conservatives.) (And sure, many conservative workers probably just donāt realize that theyād love those solutions, too, but in the meantime theyāre duped into supporting the GOP and their worse, pro-some-industries, anti-other-industries solution.) Are you under the impression that the reason OāBrien isnāt capitulating to democrats is theyāre not embracing those solutions? Do you think that when OāBrien cozies to the GOP, that heās secretly trying to get the GOP on board with those solutions? When thereās negative evidence of that?
If youāre trying to say that pro-worker policy is the bandaid, and widespread policies that provide better childcare, healthcare, housing, food, and unemployment areĀ yourĀ solution, then I donāt disagree, other than that pro-worker policy isnāt as much a band-aid at it is part of that solution. But if thatās OāBrienās solution, then heās a bad leader for helping the republicans who reject that solution. If thatās not OāBrienās solutionā¦then attacking his leadership isnāt āpunching leftā.
Iām not engaging with this anymore, youāve obviously not understood my perspectives here (intentionally or not).
Iām speaking to a very specific set of material conditions that a particular subset of the electorate is experiencing and liberal policies fail to address, and youāve dismissed them yet again. Itās extremely calloused to ignore the economic hardships experienced by these workers when the industry that supports them and their community is broken into pieces and replaced by another, and I donāt think youāre in the right place to see or acknowledge those. Maybe thatās just a function of where we are in the election cycle. A part of the way capitalism works is by holding the means of survival hostage to coerce labor to protect it, and when democrats turn a blind eye to the trap those people are stuck in it solidifies reactionary political perspectives.
I donāt give a shit what OāBrianās personal politics are or what Teamsters endorsement or platforming at the RNC means to the democratic campaign. He represents a segment of the population that is experiencing conditions not addressed by current or proposed democratic policies, and heās using his platform to put pressure on both parties to address them by dangling Teamsterās influence, and I think thatās a fine (good, even) strategy.
Youāre free to choose not to engage any further. But Iād wager to say you havenāt understood my perspective either. At least Iāve tried to make sense of what youāve said so far, and provide citations to enforce my perspective. I get the sense that you think you have an insight into unions and working class people that I could never fathom, or something like that. Hopefully Iām wrong.
Okayā¦so you believe that liberal policies canāt address the problems of certain people? That seems bizarre, given what you said a few replies up:
I figured your main beliefs were in that quote, and that a lot of what youāve said thus far was just an effort to empathize with conservative-minded workers. Guess youāre a more befuddling guy than I thought.
Buddy, Iām just some guy on the internet, same as you. At the end of the day we donāt really know a thing about each other. At least Iām not assuming you āfail to seeā this or āarenāt in the right place to seeā that.
Man, I get it, you hate capitalism. Thatās okay. IMO economic systems donāt really matter nearly as much as the rules and regulations above those systems. Thatās okay, too.
I donāt care what it means āto the democratic campaignā, either. I just care that he might help Trump win, because IMO thatās bad for his constituents. Trump doesnāt care about workers, teamsters included, and Harris is the successor to the guy who you canāt deny at least cared enough to give them the largest pension bailout in US history. To me, thatās whatās most practical to care about.
Whoomp, there it is
I donāt really know what youāre getting at, but if all youāre saying is āwow, this dude doesnāt hate capitalismā, thenā¦sure? I consider myself a social democrat.
Kind of a weird thing to fixate on. Especially after proclaiming you were done responding.
I was pointing out the ideological difference at the root of our disagreement.
Not ācapitalism badā, but āeconomic systems are unimportantā
Ah, thatās fair. Thatās a pretty key difference between us, and Iām fine agreeing to disagree.
Thanks for the spirited discussion.