If this is the entire point youāve been driving at this whole time, then I still disagree with you, but I can respect your opinion. You might be right that we wonāt see eye-to-eye, but not because of me probably not having a deeper understanding of āmaterial relations being fundamental to political movementsā, or you probably not having a deeper appreciation of āactual meat-and-bones policy being fundamental to the satisfaction of union members, both short-term and long-termā.
Yes, that was my point. I think a lot of liberals get caught up in the electoralism of general elections, and get (maybe even understandably) offended when a group they thought should clearly be on ātheir sideā decides to make a statement against them, or even simply withhold an endorsement.
Sure, meat-and-bones policy is important for advancing working class interests (iām not sure why you chose āworker satisfactionā, maybe this is further evidence of our ideological differences or maybe this is just me being pedantic, but āsatisfactionā sounds more like corporate HR jargon than the revolutionary language of class consciousness), but endorsements arenāt like straw-polls. Unions come from a bloody and cutthroat history of class struggle that have to negotiate with multi-billion dollar industries - an endorsement or even a signal of approval toward competition is just another way to gain leverage. As much as we would all really like to be able to just pick a party/ticket like picking a flavor of ice cream, thatās just not what class struggle is, least of all to a labor union.
All that said, I wanna circle back one more time on the actual debate that started this thing, because it wasnāt āwhat is the direct course of action unions are justified in taking to optimize worker satisfactionā. It was literally something as nebulous as āDid AOC āpunch leftā by criticizing OāBrienā
Yes, I still think it is punching left, and I think @the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works was mistaken in walking it back. It would be one thing if she was making a point to advocate for democratic policy choices, but the comment from AOC in question was:
āWhen the Teamsters are in trouble, who do they call when we need to make sure that Teamsters pensions are bailed out? ā¦ It was Sean OāBrien calling Democrats for helpā
I think thatās a petty and entitled thing to say to a union advocating for its members. This was in response to them simply declining to endorse either candidate because they ācouldnāt get commitments on our issuesā. Teamsters is perfectly within their right to withhold their endorsement in service of pushing for labor commitments from democrats even if you think theyāre wrong, and the worst way to respond to that feedback is to throw a tantrum and complain that theyāre being ungrateful.
Democrats really need support from union households in the swing states where Teamsters is reporting a trump advantage in their membership. They canāt afford to be throwing punches at them (even if you think itās not punching left). What drives me crazy is that democrats have been willing to bend to a bunch of conservative issues in order to gain moderate republican support - this one issue that is objectively a leftist issue and involves a crucial block of voters in swing states is, whatā¦? too radical?
I honestly donāt know anymore. dDmocratic politics have just lost all coherence as a left-wing political party. Maybe this is just a temporary change in messaging, but it really feels like theyāre abandoning all pretense as a progressive party.
Yes, that was my point. I think a lot of liberals get caught up in the electoralism of general elections, and get (maybe even understandably) offended when a group they thought should clearly be on ātheir sideā decides to make a statement against them, or even simply withhold an endorsement.
Okay, Iāll take āmaybe even understandablyā.
Sure, meat-and-bones policy is important for advancing working class interests (iām not sure why you chose āworker satisfactionā, maybe this is further evidence of our ideological differences or maybe this is just me being pedantic, but āsatisfactionā sounds more like corporate HR jargon than the revolutionary language of class consciousness),
Dude. SUPER pedantic.
but endorsements arenāt like straw-polls. Unions come from a bloody and cutthroat history of class struggle that have to negotiate with multi-billion dollar industries - an endorsement or even a signal of approval toward competition is just another way to gain leverage. As much as we would all really like to be able to just pick a party/ticket like picking a flavor of ice cream, thatās just not what class struggle is, least of all to a labor union.
I guess Iāll more or less repeat myself from earlier: Not endorsing the democrats could be likened to going on strike from some company, but threatening to endorse the GOP would be like choosing to go work for an even more exploitative company in retaliation.
Okay, fine, you disagree. But the immediate question I asked was ācan we agree it was a poorly worded and/or insufficiently brief critiqueā aka the kind of statement that itās easy to get lost in pointless pendantry over? Yāknow, the kind of pedantry I feel like weāve been arguing over this whole time?
I think thatās a petty and entitled thing to say to a union advocating for its members.
Depends on how you define āadvocating for its membersā. Signaling support for the political party most of your constituents align with, most definitely for reasons outside workersā rights, is one definition. Signalling support for the for the party thatāll actually help your constituents? Thatās another.
Teamsters is perfectly within their right to withhold their endorsement in service of pushing for labor commitments from democrats
What committments?? This is exactly what I was asking you 2 replies ago, and even before that. And youāve so far dodged the question. I still donāt understand the actual substantive things you want the Democratic party to do.
Democrats really need support from union households in the swing states where Teamsters is reporting a trump advantage in their membership. They canāt afford to be throwing punches at them (even if you think itās not punching left).
You make it sound like sheās punching at all Teamsters, when sheās not. Sheās just criticizing their leader.
What drives me crazy is that democrats have been willing to bend to a bunch of conservative issues in order to gain moderate republican support - this one issue that is objectively a leftist issue *and* involves a crucial block of voters in swing states is, whatā¦? too radical?
Youāre saying they bend to the right on a lot of things but you also want them to bend to the rightā¦onā¦what exactly? On workersā rights??
I honestly donāt know anymore. dDmocratic politics have just lost all coherence as a left-wing political party. Maybe this is just a temporary change in messaging, but it really feels like theyāre abandoning all pretense as a progressive party.
Idk man, I feel like thereās some aspect of your personal political ideology thatās so different from mine (and Iāll assert, from most people) that thereās some coreĀ assumption you and I might be obliviously disagreeing on, like āthe left is more politically aligned with supporting workersā rightsā or something.
but threatening to endorse the GOP would be like choosing to go work for an even more exploitative company in retaliation.
How? Maybe itās more like making a public statement about private negotiations that damages the reputation of the partner company, but āgoing to work for another companyā doesnāt track. Theyāre threatening to harm the democratic campaign by publicly shaming them, not self-immolating.
But the immediate question I asked was ācan we agree it was a poorly worded and/or insufficiently brief critiqueā aka the kind of statement that itās easy to get lost in pointless pendantry over?
I already answered this - no, i do not agree, and I especially donāt think itās āpointless pendantryā. AOC is a dem soc, she should know that itās the job of the union to negotiate via collective bargaining and that democrats are not owed an endorsement.
What committments?? This is exactly what I was asking you 2 replies ago, and even before that. And youāve so far dodged the question. I still donāt understand the actual substantive things you want the Democratic party to do.
Because iām not privy to what the teamsters are asking for, but Iām personally frustrated that democrats keep burying their labor offerings in capital funding and investments. Democrats assume that they can make up for any loss of industry growth in one segment of the economy by promoting growth in another, but thatās not comforting to unions or unaffiliated industry workers in the rust belt, where thereās usually only one or two major job producers in their towns. Even if those jobs were being created in exactly the same place, loosing a job and having to change industry is incredibly destabilizing. Most Americans donāt have more than a couple thousand in savings, let alone a few months of expenses. Bragging about jobs created with the CHIPS act or other legislation isnāt comforting to people who live in towns that arenāt a recipient of that investment.
I think democrats need to expand social programs and remove pointless means-testing that excludes a lot of working families from benefits (and pits them against working class families in urban centers). The more socialized benefits available to small town workers, the less pressure there will be to remain employed in a dying industry. That includes childcare, healthcare, housing, food; basically everything theyāre afraid to campaign on because republicans will accuse them of being radical socialists. And they really need to stop responding to fears about job losses in small town industries by bragging about job creation in other industries.
The alternativeās are all less appealing to a socialist - a lot of unions are pushing tarrifs on foreign goods, cutting environmental regulation, ect. You canāt win those voters by creating jobs elsewhere - you really need to convince those voters that they arenāt going to be left behind if/when their townās industry goes belly-up, and saying ātough luck, move and change industriesā is only going to radicalize them further. Especially when unemployment benefits are covered in all kinds red tape and are exceedingly difficult to apply for and stay on.
As far as legislation specific to labor protections: they need to campaign on the legislation theyāve already put forward. The PRO act is an excellent bill, but iāve not heard Harris or any top democratic leadership actually campaign on it or push it in public.
You make it sound like sheās punching at all Teamsters, when sheās not. Sheās just criticizing their leader.
He represents their interests, itās his literal fucking job. Be grateful he didnāt follow the popular opinion of his members and endorse trump. I would also mention that their support of trump is pretty heavily represented in PA, WI, and MI - all states that democrats really need to win. They shouldnāt be burning bridges with Teamsters.
Youāre saying they bend to the right on a lot of things but you also want them to bend to the rightā¦onā¦what exactly? On workersā rights??
Labor protections are a definitionally-left issue. I want democrats to bend left
Idk man, I feel like thereās some aspect of your personal political ideology thatās so different from mine (and Iāll assert, from most people) that thereās some core assumption you and I might be obliviously disagreeing on, like āthe left is more politically aligned with supporting workersā rightsā or something.
There absolutely is a difference in political ideology, but our disagreement isnāt over whether āthe left is more aligned with workerās rightsā or not. We disagree about whether or not direct action ought to be targeted at the democrats at all, and thatās something I donāt think weāll see eye-to-eye on.
How? Maybe itās more like making a public statement about private negotiations that damages the reputation of the partner company, but āgoing to work for another companyā doesnāt track. Theyāre threatening to harm the democratic campaign by publicly shaming them, not self-immolating
I reject your analogue. There have been no āpublic statements about private negotiationsā with the GOP. We donāt know the GOP toāve made ANY negotiations.
Donāt like my original analogue? Fine, replace āchoosing toā with āthreatening toā. The part youāre dancing around is the āmore exploitativeā part -the part where the side OāBrien is threatening to support isnāt a not-Dem-but-pro-union party, itās a not-Dem-but-anti-union party. And I suspect heās playing ball with them IN SPITE OF not having any appreciable consolidations made by republicans in favor of his union. Donāt bother suggesting āwe donāt know there werenāt consolidationsā, neither of us know. Though thereās plenty of indirect evidence that the modern GOP just doesnāt care - case in point, every party-line PRO Act vote in the past 5 years.
I already answered this - no, i do not agree, and I especially donāt think itās āpointless pendantryā. AOC is a dem soc, she should know that itās the job of the union to negotiate via collective bargaining and that democrats are not owed an endorsement.
You make it sound like AOC is only frustrated with OāBrien for not endorsing Harris. From my very first comment in this thread: thatās not \all heās done*.
Your next 4 paragraphsā¦Iāll get back to those.
He represents their interests, itās his literal fucking job
Then he should act like it and not help the leopards thatāll eat his face.
There absolutelyĀ isĀ a difference in political ideology, but our disagreement isnāt over whether āthe left is more aligned with workerās rightsā or not. We disagree about whether or not direct action ought to be targeted at the democratsĀ at all, and thatās something I donāt think weāll see eye-to-eye on.
I wasnāt saying that was the disagreement, I was saying thereās some core disagreement we probably have, thatās probably flying under both our radars. And no, you havenāt magically identified what that is. I never said āunions shouldnāt target democrats at all with direct actionā, Iām saying actions that directly aid another party, where that other party is the modern GOP, are fucking stupid.
Back to those 4 paragraphsā¦finally, a little actual substance.
And you know what I have to say about it? I have to say that I actually feel even MORE strongly that OāBrien is a bad leader.
You went on about issues that rust belt union members are having. But the Democrats donāt control the rust beltā¦the GOP does. And they are fucking over their own union constituents. Trumpās last term saw him hire an anti-union Reagan-era lawyer to the NLRB, stacked the courts with anti-union judges, took various other anti-union actions, and neither him nor any Republicans proposed a single page of legislation. They didnāt even support the PRO Act, legislation that helps unions everywhere, rust belt included, and was introduced even before Dems took back the WH (meaning Democrats didnāt stand to look good if it got passed). And the GOP still voted heavily against it, and have done so ever since.
Why arenāt the teamstersā¦openly mad at the GOP? The party of people who, in your own words, would āaccuse [democrats] of being radical socialistsā for proposing action that helps working class people? Denying Trump an endorsement doesnāt go far enough - OāBrien either shouldnātāve gone to the RNC, or shouldāve flipped the bird at everybody there. Donāt just leave an endorsement out of your speech - actually say āI wanna endorse you, but you fuckers are letting us downā. I could see that acknowledging their incompetence to their faces MAYBE moving the needle on the GOP, or at least, itād be a respectable attempt.
I get you feel like unions need bipartisan support to make a permanent, lasting difference. And yāknow what? I think I agree with you on that. But that doesnāt mean I agree that itās worth giving the modern GOP anything, so much as an RNC speech, now. They should work for it. BY ACTUALLY VOTING ON PRO-UNION POLICIES AND ACTIONS. Then, it makes sense to play both sides. Until then, let them know that theyāre not getting an ounce of support.
Yes, that was my point. I think a lot of liberals get caught up in the electoralism of general elections, and get (maybe even understandably) offended when a group they thought should clearly be on ātheir sideā decides to make a statement against them, or even simply withhold an endorsement.
Sure, meat-and-bones policy is important for advancing working class interests (iām not sure why you chose āworker satisfactionā, maybe this is further evidence of our ideological differences or maybe this is just me being pedantic, but āsatisfactionā sounds more like corporate HR jargon than the revolutionary language of class consciousness), but endorsements arenāt like straw-polls. Unions come from a bloody and cutthroat history of class struggle that have to negotiate with multi-billion dollar industries - an endorsement or even a signal of approval toward competition is just another way to gain leverage. As much as we would all really like to be able to just pick a party/ticket like picking a flavor of ice cream, thatās just not what class struggle is, least of all to a labor union.
Yes, I still think it is punching left, and I think @the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works was mistaken in walking it back. It would be one thing if she was making a point to advocate for democratic policy choices, but the comment from AOC in question was:
I think thatās a petty and entitled thing to say to a union advocating for its members. This was in response to them simply declining to endorse either candidate because they ācouldnāt get commitments on our issuesā. Teamsters is perfectly within their right to withhold their endorsement in service of pushing for labor commitments from democrats even if you think theyāre wrong, and the worst way to respond to that feedback is to throw a tantrum and complain that theyāre being ungrateful.
Democrats really need support from union households in the swing states where Teamsters is reporting a trump advantage in their membership. They canāt afford to be throwing punches at them (even if you think itās not punching left). What drives me crazy is that democrats have been willing to bend to a bunch of conservative issues in order to gain moderate republican support - this one issue that is objectively a leftist issue and involves a crucial block of voters in swing states is, whatā¦? too radical?
I honestly donāt know anymore. dDmocratic politics have just lost all coherence as a left-wing political party. Maybe this is just a temporary change in messaging, but it really feels like theyāre abandoning all pretense as a progressive party.
Okay, Iāll take āmaybe even understandablyā.
Dude. SUPER pedantic.
I guess Iāll more or less repeat myself from earlier: Not endorsing the democrats could be likened to going on strike from some company, but threatening to endorse the GOP would be like choosing to go work for an even more exploitative company in retaliation.
Okay, fine, you disagree. But the immediate question I asked was ācan we agree it was a poorly worded and/or insufficiently brief critiqueā aka the kind of statement that itās easy to get lost in pointless pendantry over? Yāknow, the kind of pedantry I feel like weāve been arguing over this whole time?
Depends on how you define āadvocating for its membersā. Signaling support for the political party most of your constituents align with, most definitely for reasons outside workersā rights, is one definition. Signalling support for the for the party thatāll actually help your constituents? Thatās another.
What committments?? This is exactly what I was asking you 2 replies ago, and even before that. And youāve so far dodged the question. I still donāt understand the actual substantive things you want the Democratic party to do.
You make it sound like sheās punching at all Teamsters, when sheās not. Sheās just criticizing their leader.
Youāre saying they bend to the right on a lot of things but you also want them to bend to the rightā¦onā¦what exactly? On workersā rights??
Idk man, I feel like thereās some aspect of your personal political ideology thatās so different from mine (and Iāll assert, from most people) that thereās some coreĀ assumption you and I might be obliviously disagreeing on, like āthe left is more politically aligned with supporting workersā rightsā or something.
How? Maybe itās more like making a public statement about private negotiations that damages the reputation of the partner company, but āgoing to work for another companyā doesnāt track. Theyāre threatening to harm the democratic campaign by publicly shaming them, not self-immolating.
I already answered this - no, i do not agree, and I especially donāt think itās āpointless pendantryā. AOC is a dem soc, she should know that itās the job of the union to negotiate via collective bargaining and that democrats are not owed an endorsement.
Because iām not privy to what the teamsters are asking for, but Iām personally frustrated that democrats keep burying their labor offerings in capital funding and investments. Democrats assume that they can make up for any loss of industry growth in one segment of the economy by promoting growth in another, but thatās not comforting to unions or unaffiliated industry workers in the rust belt, where thereās usually only one or two major job producers in their towns. Even if those jobs were being created in exactly the same place, loosing a job and having to change industry is incredibly destabilizing. Most Americans donāt have more than a couple thousand in savings, let alone a few months of expenses. Bragging about jobs created with the CHIPS act or other legislation isnāt comforting to people who live in towns that arenāt a recipient of that investment.
I think democrats need to expand social programs and remove pointless means-testing that excludes a lot of working families from benefits (and pits them against working class families in urban centers). The more socialized benefits available to small town workers, the less pressure there will be to remain employed in a dying industry. That includes childcare, healthcare, housing, food; basically everything theyāre afraid to campaign on because republicans will accuse them of being radical socialists. And they really need to stop responding to fears about job losses in small town industries by bragging about job creation in other industries.
The alternativeās are all less appealing to a socialist - a lot of unions are pushing tarrifs on foreign goods, cutting environmental regulation, ect. You canāt win those voters by creating jobs elsewhere - you really need to convince those voters that they arenāt going to be left behind if/when their townās industry goes belly-up, and saying ātough luck, move and change industriesā is only going to radicalize them further. Especially when unemployment benefits are covered in all kinds red tape and are exceedingly difficult to apply for and stay on.
As far as legislation specific to labor protections: they need to campaign on the legislation theyāve already put forward. The PRO act is an excellent bill, but iāve not heard Harris or any top democratic leadership actually campaign on it or push it in public.
He represents their interests, itās his literal fucking job. Be grateful he didnāt follow the popular opinion of his members and endorse trump. I would also mention that their support of trump is pretty heavily represented in PA, WI, and MI - all states that democrats really need to win. They shouldnāt be burning bridges with Teamsters.
Labor protections are a definitionally-left issue. I want democrats to bend left
There absolutely is a difference in political ideology, but our disagreement isnāt over whether āthe left is more aligned with workerās rightsā or not. We disagree about whether or not direct action ought to be targeted at the democrats at all, and thatās something I donāt think weāll see eye-to-eye on.
I reject your analogue. There have been no āpublic statements about private negotiationsā with the GOP. We donāt know the GOP toāve made ANY negotiations.
Donāt like my original analogue? Fine, replace āchoosing toā with āthreatening toā. The part youāre dancing around is the āmore exploitativeā part -the part where the side OāBrien is threatening to support isnāt a not-Dem-but-pro-union party, itās a not-Dem-but-anti-union party. And I suspect heās playing ball with them IN SPITE OF not having any appreciable consolidations made by republicans in favor of his union. Donāt bother suggesting āwe donāt know there werenāt consolidationsā, neither of us know. Though thereās plenty of indirect evidence that the modern GOP just doesnāt care - case in point, every party-line PRO Act vote in the past 5 years.
You make it sound like AOC is only frustrated with OāBrien for not endorsing Harris. From my very first comment in this thread: thatās not \all heās done*.
Your next 4 paragraphsā¦Iāll get back to those.
Then he should act like it and not help the leopards thatāll eat his face.
I wasnāt saying that was the disagreement, I was saying thereās some core disagreement we probably have, thatās probably flying under both our radars. And no, you havenāt magically identified what that is. I never said āunions shouldnāt target democrats at all with direct actionā, Iām saying actions that directly aid another party, where that other party is the modern GOP, are fucking stupid.
Back to those 4 paragraphsā¦finally, a little actual substance.
And you know what I have to say about it? I have to say that I actually feel even MORE strongly that OāBrien is a bad leader.
You went on about issues that rust belt union members are having. But the Democrats donāt control the rust beltā¦the GOP does. And they are fucking over their own union constituents. Trumpās last term saw him hire an anti-union Reagan-era lawyer to the NLRB, stacked the courts with anti-union judges, took various other anti-union actions, and neither him nor any Republicans proposed a single page of legislation. They didnāt even support the PRO Act, legislation that helps unions everywhere, rust belt included, and was introduced even before Dems took back the WH (meaning Democrats didnāt stand to look good if it got passed). And the GOP still voted heavily against it, and have done so ever since.
Biden might not be perfect in your eyes, but he immediately fired Trumpās NLRB appointee and the similarly minded deputy replacing them them with a pro-union labor lawyer who took on captive audience meetings, non-compete clauses, and consequential damages. And like I already said, it was DEMOCRATS whoāve been pushing for the PRO Act this whole timeā¦and yes, Harris has campaigned on signing the PRO Act, fyi.
Why arenāt the teamstersā¦openly mad at the GOP? The party of people who, in your own words, would āaccuse [democrats] of being radical socialistsā for proposing action that helps working class people? Denying Trump an endorsement doesnāt go far enough - OāBrien either shouldnātāve gone to the RNC, or shouldāve flipped the bird at everybody there. Donāt just leave an endorsement out of your speech - actually say āI wanna endorse you, but you fuckers are letting us downā. I could see that acknowledging their incompetence to their faces MAYBE moving the needle on the GOP, or at least, itād be a respectable attempt.
I get you feel like unions need bipartisan support to make a permanent, lasting difference. And yāknow what? I think I agree with you on that. But that doesnāt mean I agree that itās worth giving the modern GOP anything, so much as an RNC speech, now. They should work for it. BY ACTUALLY VOTING ON PRO-UNION POLICIES AND ACTIONS. Then, it makes sense to play both sides. Until then, let them know that theyāre not getting an ounce of support.