- cross-posted to:
- games@hexbear.net
- cross-posted to:
- games@hexbear.net
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It turns out that, just like fancy graphics, not constantly trying to empty your customers pockets actually represents some kind of economic value. The ironic thing is so many of these old games were literally designed to steal your quarters.
Well, only the arcade versions of games were designed to steal your quarters. The home console versions were much better about not harassing your wallet.
For instance, Gauntlet Legends on its arcade cabinet hardware drained your health at a consistent time based rate. Add more quarters to gain more health. All home console versions abolished this health drain mechanic.
That’s mostly true, except for games made specifically harder so that you’d have to rent them multiple times (eg: ActRaiser 2 NTSC-U/C / SNES is much harder than its NTSC-J / SFC counterpart).
games made specifically harder so that you’d have to rent them multiple times
Fucking BattleToads
Don’t forget Lion King!
https://www.cbr.com/lion-king-brutally-difficult-platformer/
I didn’t know they artificially ramped up the difficulty! That game had a reputation when we were kids! Thanks for sharing
Yep. Buncha bastards.
That’s mostly true, except for games made specifically harder so that you’d have to rent them multiple times
Wait this was a thing game designers actually to into account? I’ve never heard this
Probably some games did after the home rental market got started, but a lot of older games were difficult specifically to extend the experience. Cartridge storage was small, so if it was too easy you’d get through all 10 levels in less than a day and then feel like you hadn’t got very much for your money.
Well I guess I am just wondering how more rentals from a video store would benefit the developers financially? I mean I’m sure I could research but surely game studios didn’t get any kind of percentage from the rental places based on how many times a title was rented right?
They didn’t want you to rent it multiple times. They wanted you to rent it once, be unable to beat it, but be intrigued enough that you purchased the game from a store. If you could play and beat a game in a single rental, there was little incentive to buy it (so the developers thought, and I imagine had some data to back it up).
More rentals = more demand = more copies purchased by rental stores (I can’t rent you the game you want if someone else has it right now).
There was definitely the occasional tom-foolery with publishers and designers here and there but it was also generally never at the expense of game play.
The game companies also wanted gamers to call their hotline if they get stuck, where they would charge by the minute to give tips (and they weren’t known for their brief calls).
Except there were so many Japanese games not brought to the west because they were deemed too difficult for western gamers.
You say this like you’re correcting the person you’re responding to, but they didn’t dispute this. Both can be true.
Both were true!
Did game companies get royalties from rentals? I though the idea was that you’d want to buy it if you couldn’t beat it in a rental period
But is making a game harder to discourage rental and encourge purchasing stealing your quarters? Id argue no. You still get value if you renting the game, and the idea of rentals is really that if you like it then you pay to own it.
It’s because those old games are good and fun
Gameplay always wins over everything else. The rest is a bonus.
Classic movies, music, etc why not expect classic games?
Simple as
Because the games are good? Does their need to be a deeper reason then that? I mean, I guess a boom in retro games among Gen Z and younger says something about the state of the modern industry, but younger generations have always liked older things despite entertainment industries trying to push them towards the shiny and new. Still definitely nice to see though.
Yeah, agreed. They play retro games for the same reason people watch classic movies, read literature, or listen to older music: because it’s enjoyable regardless of how old it is.
It’s also easier to determine which games are good and which aren’t. I doubt there’s a ton of people playing licensed games from LJN, at least not as many as are playing Zelda or Chrono Trigger.
They made gaming a chore.
Games used to be a simple concept, and fun to play. I still play Tetris more than anything else by a huge margin. Imma go play a round right now.
They made gaming a chore.
I couldn’t agree more, every damn game looks exactly the same to each other, a huge ass RPG like with tons of sidequests which can be or not good and with cosmetic upgrades or paid DLCs.
The last four games that I have played follow this formula:
The Witcher 3
Batman Arkham Knight
Breath of The Wild
Nier Automata
Currently I have only finished The Witcher 3 and Batman Arkham Knight, and got “tired” with the last two, currently playing SIFU and god it feels very fresh… Although I’m stuck at the “git gud” phase.
Saying stuff like Witcher 3 and Nier are “just a huge ass RPG with tons of sidequests” has to be the least intellectual take I’ve seen in years. They’re both groundbreaking games with (at the time) unique systems never before seen. BoTW was also a breakthrough in that it was the first mainline Nintendo game to embrace modern advancements, and did so without sacrificing much of their traditional fun-oriented design.
Are most AAA games complete unsalvageable garbage? Sure. But to classify the few exceptions as equally bad is disingenuous - ESPECIALLY when most of the games you listed are actually fairly old.
And here I am having a blast with my kids playing Switch Sports Soccer.
Until VR came along I had long lost interest in modern games for that very reason. Everything was the same. Nothing I hadn’t already played. VR gaming has breathed new interest for me with gaming. Currently 150+ hours Into the Radius.
I get you, but I failed at developing my VR legs :c
Do a little each day with comfort settings on. I don’t know anyone who wasn’t able to get through that stage within a month. The moment you feel sick though, stop. Wait an hour or two before continuing.
I’ll try to play around with the settings, that is like the last thing for me to try…
The worst feeling is when my character jumps or falls, that is when I feel the most sick.
It was the same for me when I got started. I would suggest sticking with one game at first too. That way you get used to the motion of that particular game and your brain will eventually know what to expect when you jump or turn (actually you should start with snap turning).
My gf used to get horribly nauseous at first. After a few weeks she was killing it every night in population one (a game with a Lot of crazy motion). Good luck!
“every game looks exactly the same” proceeds to list 4 games that could not be more different from each other lmfao. You have to be trolling.
I swear I’m not, I didn’t mean to offend anyone by listing these awesome gems, but I still stand my point that they share too many similarities, and it is worse when you look at more games which, might not be as good as the ones listed (I mean, all those who share a ridiculous amount of sidequests some rewarding, some absolutely not, DLCs which adds up more “filler” and skill threes, because every damn game has to have you read countless of stats and such to improve the MC).
Bro they don’t share ANY similarities. Saying they’re similar because they all have “lots of sidequests” or “DLCs” is like saying Lord of the rings and Arthur Christmas are similar movies because they both have elves and an older mentor figure. I’m sorry but that’s just beyond ridiculous. Especially since you don’t seem to have any idea what their DLCs contain. And no I’m not saying that because I like all of those games, I only ever really got into botw, the other 3 either didn’t catch my attention or I tried them and couldn’t get into them, but I still know enough to know that calling them similar in this context is delusional, the only thing they vaguely share is the open world genre. They are extremely different games you couldn’t have chosen more different examples if you tried, I can think of a ton of non open world games that have more similarities with each.
I recently started playing Zelda The Minish Cap (GBA) on my PS Vita, and for me the appeal - especially with old handheld games - is the simplicity in terms of game mechanics.
The game only has like a dozen of equippable items, dialog with NPCs is very simple, there’s a lot of puzzles cleverly integrated into the map, a small trading system (forgot what it’s called, these round things where you match your half with an NPCs half), a few different collectibles (heart containers for example) and they pretty much made a very enjoyable game out of that.
Today, a lot of games come with a crafting system, some sort of hunger/food mechanic, complex character progression systems etc. And while I enjoy this a lot of the time, playing a well crafted game based on much simpler (and fewer) mechanics is a welcome change from time to time.
That is why I will always miss these “lesser” versions of the games, AKA as handheld games, and the Switch, or the industry, might have killed that already.
The biggest perk of handheld gaming nowadays is doing the “videogame chores” (like sidequests) more comfortably for your adult life, and not like a quick burst gaming style… Perhaps indies might be the only experience of it that is left.
I’ve been on a bit of a retro gaming bender recently and downloaded a bunch of Nintendo emulators and ROMs, but I found that unless I have specific memories around a certain game, it was a little difficult to enjoy them. Also, perhaps I’m spoiled by all those modern PC games I’ve played.
Then I tried some Switch games, and I gotta say, they honestly struck a great balance between visual effects and gameplay. Lots of games there that are basically just remakes of decades old classics, but with high res 3D graphics and modern effects. Seriously considering buying one now.
I’d say it highly depends on the title. Not all games age well, maybe most didn’t. Nostalgia is definitely a factor when it comes to enjoyment of some of these games. I never played Zelda The Minish Cap before and I still enjoy it now, but maybe part of it is generic nostalgia for GameBoy type games. I’d also say GBA games are often more accessible than even older (say NES) games.
And graphically, sure, newer games look quite a lot better. This game didn’t get the remake treatment (yet) though. I disagree that there has to be a “balance” between visual effects and gameplay though (aside from prioritizing development resources). A game can have both amazing graphics and great gameplay mechanics. I also think great graphics and visual design can enhance the gameplay experience.
But I don’t know, I still enjoy the odd “retro” game every now and then.
A game can have both amazing graphics and great gameplay mechanics.
Yes, that’s what I was saying, that I enjoyed playing those games on Switch that are remakes of older games because they generally have both the gameplay mechanics that made the old games great and the graphics to please the modern sense of aesthetics.
retro accessories such as the Wii Fit Balance Board
I feel old now
why would someone intentionally harm like this
Wii came out 18 years ago
So yesterday?
Probably because “AAA” games are almost all cash grabs at this point.
Not to mention they require high end hardware to run due to lack of optimisation. Many people can’t afford top end shit and with emulators becoming lighter and easier to run, retro games just become super accessible.
Even Wii emulators such as dolphin can run decently well on a bog standard phone and with the state the mobile game market is in, Wii games are just universally a better option.
100% agree, too much is being focused on getting games as cutting edge graphic wise as possible without focusing on optimization, size, game play, or even if consumers can reasonably be expected to have the hardware necessary for it. I worry the gaming industry will hit a point where the leeches at the top determine the industry is dead because they’ve ruined it so badly in the never ending pursuit of unrealistic profit. Like no shit not as many people want to buy games riddled with bugs, microtransactions and lacking any attempt at listening to what consumer want to play. I miss when developers were allowed to be creative and work on things they enjoy, because that definitely was represented in the games when playing them.
Seeing a Wii Fit Balance Board referred to as a retro gaming accessory…
Just fucking bury me now, why don’t you. 💀
what would that make the power glove? or a pong paddle?
Elegant weapons for a more civilised age.
I was taken aback when I saw Ape Escape in CEX for about as much as I’d originally paid for it. Didn’t even have the manual.
The philosophies behind game development has changed so much.
Developers used to try and make fun games that they wanted to play, in hopes that fun games will sell well.
Now they have marketing teams with budgets that are greater than twice the development cost. Committees designing games to maximize addiction. And of course, the endless need to monetize everything, micro transactions, games as a service, etc., in order to maximize profits. Is the game any good? Probably not, but they just need a few whales to dump money into it.
It’s this.
NDS games for example hust have a completely different design language.
Still, Indie games continue to be developed. This will be gaming’s salvation when the big studios are fully committed to squeezing every loot box/DLC/microtransaction out of “Live service” forever games.
I don’t think Clash of Candy Shadow Tanks is going anywhere, but there will always be the next Stardew Valley passion project.
On that note, I think Indy’s have embraced a retro aesthetic because you don’t need a whole art team rendering your graphics. Combine this with AAA games being rather formulaic (can’t risk a big studio budget trying unproven ideas) and I think you have an audience willing to accept older graphics in retro games.
cheaper, easier, simpler, more accessible, a good game is timeless
edit: easy as in shorter and to the point
Easier is questionable. Some of the older games can be tough as hell. Especially with outdated control schemes.
Games of a certain era were intentionally made challenging because they only had about 6 levels. They had to make it last, so they made that shit hard. You’d spend months just trying to beat level 3. Same with arcade machines; though they were hard to make you die and put another quarter in.
Ninja Gaiden from 1988 is still the hardest game I have ever played. It was next to impossible in the arcade and even harder on the NES
Yeah I grew up with the NES MegaMan games. Revisiting them 30 years later made me realize just how brutally difficult they are. Enemies endlessly spawn and will spawn on top of you.
I love Battletoads, but it’s so hard.
Easier to get playing, at least.
Put rectangle in rectangle.
Toggle Power.
Enjoy.Its seriously a bigger hassle to figure out where you were in a show on Netflix if it decided not to save your spot in a show than it is to get into a level in a lot of games back in the day.
You forgot blow, blow, try and fail, special blow, etc.
Don’t forget. No saves back then either. You either got nothin or had to write down a crazy save code.
No microtransactions and old websites still have the codes you can type in for goofy play through
WOMPASTOMPA and JUBJUB burned into the back of my eyeballs lol
L, R, Z, all four C buttons, left on the D-pad, analog stick halfway left until the tone, then halfway right to the tone, then halfway left to the tone.
I am almost positive that anyone my generation can tell you the Contra NES code without fail
Oh yeah we all know the Konami code.
Because it is a time where you picked something up to be transported away from your worries, or just to have a bit of fun. You turned it on, hit start, and for the most part that was it. There were no season passes on the NES. There was no bullshit shoved in your face constantly. It was just the game, and that was it. My kids are shocked when I tell them about the flash game days, or the late 90’s with an N64. If I was there for the commodore and atari days I’m sure I’d have more to say.
are they? much is propagandized about the new generations to older people but it rarely holds true.
just look at the numbers on any mtx ridden mobile game.
I mean, the first person to ever play NES Tetris long enough to make it crash is like 13 right now.
Ive been playing duke nukem 3d as of late. Admittedly it was one of the first real video games i played so big nostalgia but looking at all the other games i played and have installed most are nearing 10 years of age or are older.
I’ve pretty much put everything aside except for my handheld retro gaming thingie - a Miyoo Mini+ - and honestly, I prefer to spend all my time playing 1980s-90s video games. And the arcades! Let’s not forget the arcades… it’s just simpler and more satisfying, and if I lose in 5 minutes that’s fine - I’ll get hours back to do other things in my life.
Berzerk, Altered Beast, Bubble Bobble, Super Mario world, and of course, Tetris… I’ve got hundreds of games, but these pretty much are my favs. It’s just get in, play a game or two, and get out… I’ve had what I wanted. I don’t really enjoy the games nowadays with there’s too much work involved (but then again, I am of an era…)
Arcade games are what got me into emulation in the late 90s. I would occasionally search the web for ways to play pacman, until eventually I found a few arcade emulators. Then I found a group on irc and followed every new release of mame for several years. They had a release every week and you could count on at least one big hit added, usually a few. I was barely interested in other emulators until pretty much every arcade game I heard of was in game.
Now I have too many handheld. My current favorite is the Powkiddy RGB30, and I am waiting for the Miyoo Flip to come out.
Ohh I’d love to ask you: which emulation handheld you think provides the best arcade emulation experience for vertical shmups?
Vertical arcade games are one of the reasons I like the Powkiddy RGB30 so much. It makes good use of the extra screen height. It’s also better for Gameboy, Gameboy Color, and Pico8 than anything.
I have never used a handheld that worked well for me sideways for vertical games. There usually isn’t any comfortable way to hold it. The extra height of the RGB30 makes it more comfortable in general even though it’s just a flat slab of plastic. If someone made a more ergonomic version of that layout in the same pricerange, I’d probably buy it.
Sometimes simpler is better.
Don’t know if I’d say simpler, some of the games for the NES are downright punishing in their difficulty.
Though they are often synonyms, simple != easy.
Simple is uncomplicated.
Easy is unchallenging.
Super Mario Bros. is a simple game, but not necessarily an easy one.
I’m reminded of a time I wanted to play SMB, but had to wait hours downloading an update. It may have used all my bandwidth for the month, and made the game crash all the time, but now I can spawn a powerup whenever I need one by just authorizing a micropayment! /s
The fact that younger generations are picking it up suggest it’s not just nostalgia. It’s not someone who was there wishing things were still like their childhood. Something has downright broken in the games industry for this to happen.
Something like my generation (elder millennial) listening to Stairway and Dark Side of the Moon. The associated industry was not providing in modern times, so we looked back.
It seems the zoomers picked up a lot of millenial culture. Which I suspect is because the zoomers were exposed to a lot of our culture from an early age. i.e theyre nostalgic for the same stuff because they also grew up being exposed to that culture when they were little
I think it’s important to point out, just like when people say “movies from x time period were all so good,” that none of the myriad of mediocre bad ones are remembered (except the really truly awful games). So there is a selection bias where we only remember/keep playing the ones that stood above the rest. Which means these retro game locations are generally only housing the cream of the crop vetted over literally decades.
There are a lot of issues with the modern game industry but this surge in interest for retro games does not tell us current games are bad. In fact if you’re really into games, it’s a better time than ever. The number of standout indies the last few years, the sheer breadth of experimentation, is truly remarkable. The industry isn’t just COD and Fortnite.
The problem the industry has is that even when the games are good, they have to use questionable monetization practices to justify their gigantic teams and gigantic budgets. Customers may not support that forever, and that time may have already come.
Games also don’t need gigantic teams to be good, and the existence of retro games proves it. It doesn’t actually matter if it’s a curated list of the best games. There were still games that we all agree were good, and to pull it off, they didn’t need three types of in game currency to buy a hat.
I’m not sure what I said is incongruent with this. These are all very real issues. But the point I’m making is the only retro games available to play to newly interested parties are the good ones, more or less. The bad and mediocre ones have been left behind. The bar for how good any given game available to them at a space dedicated to retro gaming is just way higher because it’s had decades of curation in the broader world and now it’s been filtered further to only the best of the best from what has survived, because an arcade or whatever is going to have limited space.
Basically, I’m hoping this trend leads to the death of AAA development as we know it. Games will be smaller, with worse graphics, by people who are paid more to work less. I will be fine with that, because many retro games already did it that way, and there’s not a noticeable increase in games actually being good or bad because of it. Whole industry can revert to where it was in the PS2 or PS3 era, and that would probably be better.
with worse graphics
I think the scale/size of games is a far bigger issue than the quality of graphics. For instance, why is TLOU2 like 4x bigger than the first one? That was completely unnecessary. There’s a quantity issue in the AAA space that needs to be reined in badly. The games are simply too big. It puts a bunch of burden on devs, it can overwhelm players, and you often just get a bunch of stuff people simply don’t care about.
Sometimes, maybe, it depends.
Ray tracing scenes that have been converted automatically from the old methods often don’t look right. Too bright or too dark, depending on which cranny you’re looking at. You can maybe get away with it, but if you want to do it right, you have to do twice as much work in each scene. If your game is also 4X bigger, you now have 8X the work. Someday, maybe everyone has ray tracing hardware and you don’t need to do both anymore, but that’s where we are in the transition period.
Not every game needs or employs RTX and as it becomes easier/cheaper to do so,there’s no reason they should be discouraged from doing so. We can’t hinge the entire visual argument on RTX.
