• Sterile_Technique@lemmy.worldEnglish
    892·
    7 months ago

    The problem with injuring Nazis is that they tend to just recover, and then go back to doing Nazi shit.

    There was a pretty extensive study done from 1939 to 1945 on how to best deal with Nazis; for best outcomes, I’d refer to the results and testing techniques uncovered then.

      • psycho_driver@lemmy.worldEnglish
        221·
        7 months ago

        Too many of the wealthy nazis were let go to relocate to other parts of the world and continue their nazi bullshit. Hopefully next time that mistake isn’t repeated.

        • xantoxis@lemmy.worldEnglish
          24·
          7 months ago

          Too many of the wealthy Nazis lived in the United States and were never even in danger.

          • vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            10·
            7 months ago

            At least one of them may have been killed by a distant relative of mine. That or he did a fucken hate crime against some Prussian dude.

              • vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                4·
                7 months ago

                I aint saying hate crimes are cool. My family legit doesnt know. If it was a Prussian Nazi then you basically killed the worst type of German that isnt an inbred mountain dweller. If it was just some Prussian exile then that relative just killed some dude for being a Prussian instead of an Alemanni speaker.

      • daltotron@lemmy.worldEnglish
        51·
        7 months ago

        two world wars boomer ass take. we have better options than your john browning .45 stoppan power target pistol bullshit. the czechoslovakians have provided! get with the times!

      • Random_German_Name@feddit.deEnglish
        8·
        7 months ago

        But at least in Germany the main reasons for people to join exit programs are:

        • relationship with people from a different „race“
        • fear of violence from political opponents
        • violence between neonazis
        • boredtortoise@lemm.eeEnglish
          51·
          7 months ago

          One could definitely argue that some sort of light violence towards fascists is self-defense which has a chance to lead towards exit programs. Killing on the other hand causes a lot more issues.

          • Random_German_Name@feddit.deEnglish
            41·
            7 months ago

            I agree. Killing a nazi only causes more problems. You will be hunted by both the police and his fellow neonazis and they can and will use it for propaganda.

            • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
              61·
              7 months ago

              Killing a nazi only causes more problems.

              “Kill Nazis” is a keyboard commando response to a more complex problem.

              When your police departments and state legislatures and churches and clubs and mega-corps are all riddled with fascist partisans, there’s no magic bullet that makes them all go away. At some level, you need to cultivate relationships in your community. You need to be friends with your neighbors. You need to be able to find allies in these corrupted institutions who are open to reform. You need to be able to reach out to the lumpen proletariat - the unemployed, the homeless, the young and afraid - and bring them into your community to reinforce it.

              Only when you’ve got a community that’s strong enough and unified enough to take on the fascist elements can you seriously talk about purging its worst elements. And once you’ve done the yeoman’s work of organizing your neighborhood for people’s mutual benefit, I think you’ll find a lot of that fascist sentiment melts away of its own accord - perhaps even transforms into revolutionary sentiment, as your neighbors stop seeing one another as evil outsiders and start seeing them as comrades.

              • daltotron@lemmy.worldEnglish
                51·
                7 months ago

                That sounds like a lot of effort. It’s easier and makes me feel better to just type “kill the nazis!” on my keyboard after I get home from my 9-5 shithole job that has made me hate my fellow human, and then slowly accelerate towards a hellscape of my own making, bitching the whole way down.

              • melpomenesclevage@lemm.eeEnglish
                2·
                7 months ago

                So I generally agree with your sentiment, but after a certain point they’re just lost. And at thatbpoknt I genuinely believe the only cure is a bullet (magic not required, but you might need a few)

          • melpomenesclevage@lemm.eeEnglish
            1·
            7 months ago

            No. Getting caught by other nazis causes issues, and their murder clearance rates are notoriously bad, so…

      • RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        410·
        7 months ago

        How dare you propose a non-violent solution? Don’t you know nazis are the only violent ideologists that are incorrigible and need be killed? We should build camps for them or something…

      • vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        113·
        7 months ago

        Kill and killer and the number of killers stays the same. Kill a hundred killers and the number drops by 99. My ancestors had a lot of blood on their hands, I hope to get mine share with a damned good Casus Belli.

          • vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            17·
            7 months ago

            I dont want war. I want bloodshed that would equal my ancestors. The type where you butcher the slaver side of ones family. Or shoot a lawman for raping a younger cousin. Or killing Mormons for being cattle stealing cultists. I want mine just cause.

            • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
              1·
              7 months ago

              I am glad people like you don’t have any real powers in the real world.

                • melpomenesclevage@lemm.eeEnglish
                  2·
                  7 months ago

                  I’m saying youre looking for cassus belli, that’s a state thing. I’m saying john brown this shit. Except for the last part. Don’t copy the last part.

        • melpomenesclevage@lemm.eeEnglish
          1·
          7 months ago

          Well hey, pad your resumè for jsoc with a shit ton of cardio and keeping your local community fasch-free, but quietly.

  • bobs_monkey@lemm.eeEnglish
    766·
    7 months ago

    It still makes me giggle that the far right chose “Antifa” as their boogeyman. You can ask any of them what it stands for, half of which just say radical liberals that are trying to take over America. Then tell them it means anti-fascist, ask them what from with being against fascism, and then watch their heads spin while glowing red. Good times.

    • Kage520@lemmy.worldEnglish
      292·
      7 months ago

      I think this is better presented as:

      “Oh wait you are FOR fascism?”

      “No I’m just against antifa.”

      “There is no like, regulating body for this ‘antifa’. It’s just what the fascists labeled anyone who isn’t supporting fascism. If you aren’t a fascist, then you are antifa.”

      • bobs_monkey@lemm.eeEnglish
        25·
        7 months ago

        Lol I have to say that I’ve never actually met anyone that claims to be affiliated with Antifa. Plenty Proud Boys and the like, but I’m convinced Antifa is a borderline myth.

        • fsxylo@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          1·
          7 months ago

          There’s the occasional street fight that breaks out between them and the proud boys from time to time.

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.worldEnglish
          11·
          7 months ago

          I’ve met a couple. Cool dudes, a few loose screws. They have a compound where they make their own ammo.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
      101·
      7 months ago

      We get a new word for “people I don’t like” every five years. Almost like its some kind of marketing gimmick that a handful of right-wing news outlets cook up in a think tank back room and then roll out as a fashion statement.

      Antifa, Marxist, Leftist, Wumao, Tree Hugger, F-ggot, N-, the terms echo through history.

      ask them what from with being against fascism

      Well, everyone knows that Fascism is when you’re a National Socialist. And that means the Real Fascists are Socialists, which is what the Antifa are, which means Antifa means Fascist.

      As a True Patriot, I’m standing up against your evil foreign mind virus by speaking the Secret Truth that They Don’t Want You To Know. And that Secret Truth that nobody will let you say is how Middle Aged Wealthy White Men are the natural leaders of society who make everything better. When they’re not in charge, when they’re not in control of ever facet of socio-economic policy, when they’re not in a position of Strength and Pride, the country goes to shit. And that’s when the Antifa Fascists come crawling out of the woodwork to spread the disease of dissent and rebellion against the Natural Order.

      You either let good Christian American Men lead this country to its inevitable Utopian Future, or I have every right to murder you in self defense. That’s what it means to be Against Fascism. So are you with us, or are you with the terrorists?

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.zipEnglish
      11·
      7 months ago

      I hate this moment, in the book a completely different point was made - that it doesn’t make any fscking sense to nuke everything around you, because warfare is a tool in politics, a means of persuasion.

      • Alien Nathan Edward@lemm.eeEnglish
        35·
        7 months ago

        is not spotting irony when it’s insanely obvious also irony? the book is arguable, but the movie is absolutely satirical and Paul Verhoeven has been very clear that both it and Robocop were meant to be taken as kindred films satirizing fascism at home and abroad.

  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldEnglish
    363·
    7 months ago

    That’s a big different between the left and the right.

    The right want certain people to have certain basic rights.

    The left want everyone to have the same basic rights. Even if they are hated.

      • oatscoopEnglish
        3·
        7 months ago

        I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted because you’re not wrong.

        I occasionally go back and browse r/all – the amount of cryptofascist bullshit on the front page is staggering compared to a couple years ago.

  • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
    187·
    7 months ago

    Bullshit. A Nazi whose arm gets broken outside the context of someone defending themselves against them only creates an angstier angrier and more radicalized Nazi. It’s more counter productive than people like to think.

    • jjjalljs@ttrpg.networkEnglish
      11·
      7 months ago

      he book how minds change talks about how people change their mind. I haven’t finished it yet, but it talks about some fringe groups like flat earthers and such.

      It does mention that one of the ways people change their mind is horrible trauma

      Like, usually facts and figures don’t do anything. Belief is social. Your beliefs will hinge a lot on your social groups. But if your whole life is shaken to the foundations, that can also loosen you up enough to reevaluate.

      So, beating the shit out of a Nazi does have a chance of making them change their mind about being one.

      • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        7 months ago

        Sounds like an excuse to be violent. No better than a Nazi in my view. They also come up with excuses for using violence for “the good of the nation”.

        • jjjalljs@ttrpg.networkEnglish
          11·
          7 months ago

          Then your view is stupid. Like, “the aggressor is just as guilty as the victim” tier stupid.

          • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
            11·
            7 months ago

            When you go around breaking people’s arms at random intervals where you are your own judge and jury over a system you made up with no scientific basis, just with flimsy reasons sewn together, by intentionally giving people severe trauma (pretending that any psychistrist would not be totally horrified at thid BS)… you BECOME an aggressor. You are no better than the police. No more effective. Not s day closer to your goal.

            Also trauma can often cause the exact opposite. Who allows you to take this risk for all of us in society? To go give a radicalized person more reason and fuel to be radicalized? So for every Nazi you “beat into becoming decent” (an impossible and demanding righteous power-trip fantasy), the next might be the next masshooter thanks to your arm breaking trauma. And you’ll have your Pikachu mouth all open when they go around shooting everyone with a single arm.

            You system is inconsistent, unscientific, and really wish washy.

            Not much better than the average corrupt police.

            • jjjalljs@ttrpg.networkEnglish
              11·
              7 months ago

              First off, it’s impossible for me to be on the same level as the corrupt police because I don’t have the institutional support that they do. That you don’t understand that is pretty damning.

              Second, it’s not at random intervals. It’s predicated on Nazis. Literal “let’s do genocide” Nazis. It’s not wishy washy. It’s “we should beat up Nazis before they organize and do nazi stuff”

              Your "oh they might respond by doing worse " fear is silly. Butterfly flaps it’s wings tier better not do anything because it could set something bad in motion. Tell you what, if you don’t do anything about the Nazis eventually there will definitely be death.

              • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
                11·
                7 months ago

                So you think thay my “fear” is silly even though we have a good picture of how trauma affects individuals, and somehow it is akin to doing nothing according to your analysis (has it occured to you there are non violent ways to counter neoNazis?)…

                but you also think your random knee cap busting is fine, mature, and heroic?

                We have to agree to disagree then.

    • Random_German_Name@feddit.deEnglish
      44·
      7 months ago

      Not necessarily. There are a lot of neonazis, that stopped their political activity after an attack and even if they continue to do nazi shit they will become more paranoid. What most militant antifascists are trying to do is to scare nazis out of politics. Its mostly psychological warfare

      • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
        81·
        7 months ago

        “not necessarily” is a very low bar to excuse violence which we know radicalizes people. If it’s mostly psychological then I don’t see the need for arm breaking.

        And before people give me shit about this: I hate Nazis, neoNazis have bothered me and my family on a personal level in the 90’s. They made us feel unsafe, and continue to make me feel unsafe where I live now whenever I randomly encounter them.

        But fucking hell if I saw someone attacking a white power skinhead and breaking their arm unprovoked, I will be on their side and I will defend them.

        • Random_German_Name@feddit.deEnglish
          25·
          7 months ago

          But to apply psychological pressure you need to set examples. Why would they stop if they don‘t have to deal with any consequences?

          I am not arguing in favor of beating every neonazi you meet on the street. One violent attack every few months, that is published widely by the media is enough to remember them, that violence creates counter-violence and that they should think twice, if its worth getting their arm broken just to harass someone they don‘t like.

          • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
            4·
            7 months ago

            Still sounds counter productive and like some kind of mob justice to me. Do you have any science or analysis to support this?

            • Random_German_Name@feddit.deEnglish
              31·
              7 months ago

              No, I don‘t have scientific studies to back up my thesis. There most research towards right-wing or left-wing extremism focuses on the reasons or „reasons“ people have for radicalizing and how to prevent it from happening. Also extremists tend to be skeptical towards any person, that tries to understand their networks.

              Thats why most knowledge we have about extremist structures and mentalities comes from people, that aren‘t extremists anymore. In Germany we have around 33 people per year, that call the exit program for left wing extremism, 8 of whom people that actually want help. There aren‘t statistics for people, that aren‘t far-right extremists anymore, but the private Organization Exit counted alone in the state of Nordrhein-Westfalen 145 cases of people, that want to leave the far-right in 2015. Therefore we have a very limited pool of people, that want to give scientists information about internal structures and the interrelationship of violence.

              Its just what I have experienced so far. Obviously there are some neonazis, that continue their „activism“, but most of them stop at some point or at least become less active, because they know that their car could go up in flames, if they attack a refugee.

              There however are some people, that left the far right, that say that they were scared of attacks from political opponents and that this fear influenced their behavior and made them paranoid, because they didn‘t know, if there were people observing them, who those people were and how many antifascists potentially observed them.

              If you are a far right extremist and hear stories about a group called „Antifa“, that sets shit on fire and attacks far right extremists its going to scare you. And if someone then publishes the job, the address and name of you or one of your fellow local neonazis and puts an Antifa-Symbol on the flyer, you are going to afraid. They can act as tough, as they want: The thought, that 20 masked people you know nothing about could hunt you down and beat you up in an dark alley, when you come back from home is fucking terrifying. It doesn‘t matter, if this danger is real. It only matters, weather they thinks its real.

              Everything that happened is: there was one violent attack on a neonazi, there is a lot of news coverage, some guy collects informations about his local neonazis and prints some flyers. Thats enough to intimidate them for months and prevents attacks. You attack one far right extremist to prevent hundreds of attacks against innocent people.

              They won‘t feel safe at their home, when their address is doxxed by some mysterious group they know nothing about and will probably have to move. They are going to have neither the money, nor he time to do more nazi shit after an „outing“ (thats what german antifascists call the doxxing of a neonazi).

              They will probably lose their job after an outing. Their neighbors will mostly distance themself from them. They will have to move, if they want to feel safe. They will be kicked out of any association, party or organization (that isn‘t a neonazi group, obviously). Friends will distance themself from them. An outing is an incredible powerful and potentially destructive tool. This way we isolate neonazis from the rest of society and force them into their own echo chambers. This way we ensure, that actions hit neonazis instead of democratic right wingers, that by coincidence in the same association as the neonazis.

              Then we apply pressure on individuals of said group until they can‘t stand it any longer and either move to a different town or lay down their political activities. This way we can regularly force their leaders and important figures of neonazi-subculture into an „apolitical“ life and therefore destabilize the far right.

              Obviously its also important, that neonazis get an opportunity to reintegrate into society, if they lay down their ideology, but thats not my job. My job is to make them hate their life so much, that they develop the will to take the helping hand exit programs offer them.

              It definitely is a kind of mob justice, but mob justice is the only thing you can do, if the state isn‘t doing its job of protecting people.

              Tldr: neonazis are just going to stop harassing people, if there are consequences. If the state doesn‘t enforce these consequences citizens are either going to enforce consequences or get terrorized by the neonazis. Attacks are a great way of intimidating neonazis into leaving people life their lifes. If they are busy fighting you they don’t have time to attack more vulnerable groups.

              Edit: shortest left leaning comment

              • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
                1·
                7 months ago

                So in conclusion, no science, just your interpretation and gut feeling about some available literature that is not really saying what you want to say?

    • masquenox@lemmy.worldEnglish
      216·
      7 months ago

      radicalized Nazi.

      There is no such thing as a “radicalized” Nazi - all right-wing ideology is anti-radical. It’s kind of the whole point of right-wing ideology, see?

      • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
        13·
        7 months ago

        MORE RADICALIZED, GEEZ PLEASE READ.

        And also right wing ideology is anti-radical?? What??? Is this semantics?

        • masquenox@lemmy.worldEnglish
          28·
          7 months ago

          No need to scream like an idiot.

          Again… there is no such thing as a “radicalized” Nazi. If you do not understand what is meant by the term radicalized, I will be happy to explain it to you.

            • masquenox@lemmy.worldEnglish
              311·
              7 months ago

              The term “radical” has a distinct meaning when it comes to the political - the term literally means “that which pertains to the root.” Ie, radical politics are politics which looks for the root causes of society’s ills. That is why radical politics is almost universally associated with left-wing politics. *Reactionary politics," on the other hand, is almost universally associated with right-wing politics - ie, ideologies that wants to prevent politics that attempts to cure the root causes of society’s ills. Right-wing ideology is always anti-radical - that is the entire point of right-wing ideology, has always been and always will be.

              In other words… the only one way for a nazi to be a “radical nazi” - and that’s by becoming an ex-nazi.

              • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
                8·
                7 months ago

                Yeah but you knew full well that that is not what radicalized meant in sentence. /:

                Givng off a lot of pedantic vibes here

                • masquenox@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  23·
                  7 months ago

                  When someone tries to convince me that the moon is made out of cheese I do not forget what cheese is just to spare the convincer’s feelings.

                  Your misuse of important political meanings doesn’t make it less misinformational just because it’s misuse is something you’ve heard done on mainstream media.

    • Droechai@lemm.eeEnglish
      51·
      7 months ago

      Then it becomes a question of definition, who is a Nazi? I don’t know any government body I trust enough to not misuse that term to strip uncomfortable people of their rights.

      A person self identifying as a Nazi should be treated as a pariah and a threat to society.

      A person who has been but are no longer should be welcomed back into society.

      A person someone at a desk somewhere classified as a Nazi to strip of rights and humanity should not be persecuted with bo other proof, instead it should be the actions of the individual that should be the basis of judgement.

      Just compare to the amount of LGBT people who got branded “communists or communist-associayed” just to prohibit them from being full members of society in America during the red scare, also known as the Lavender Scare

  • Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zipEnglish
    5·
    7 months ago

    Can someone explain who the nazis are? I know what they are but I don’t live in Europe or NA and I don’t understand if it’s just referring to right wing fascists or just nazis.

    My intention is not to deny anything or defend anyone. It’s simply a question. I also see some comments calling for violence in a very direct way, doesn’t it violate rules?

    I am a layman so go easy on me.

    • deaf_fish@lemm.eeEnglish
      6·
      7 months ago

      Nazis are a subcategory of fascists. Not everyone knows what it means to be a fascist, but most people know what it means to be a Nazi. Often times people will use Nazi when they mean fascists in general. It can be hard to tell when this is happening though.

      There are Neo-Nazi groups in the US. They can go all out with the look and vibes too. There isn’t much difference politically between Neo-Nazis and Nazis. There are way less Neo-Nazis then fascists in the US.

    • Mistic@lemmy.worldEnglish
      2·
      7 months ago

      Disregarding people who use Nazi as just a slur for people they don’t like, Nazi are people who support Nazism, also known as National Socialism (it has nothing to do with Socialism, BTW), which is deeply associated with Adolf Hitler. It’s a form of fascism with a sprinkle of anti-democracy and pro-dictatorship on top. Think antisemitism + racism + white supremacy + anti-communism + social Darwinism. It’s attributed to far-right, but using a more modern political compass far-up would be more appropriate since it’s more about control than economics.

      For full background on why it’s so universally hated (if the aforementioned wasn’t enough), Hitler was a dictator who ruled over Nazi Germany back in the first middle of 20th century. Under his rule, millions were inhumanely slaughtered for not fitting Nazi’s standard of a human being. Then, under Hitler, they went on to create a war that involved nearly all of the continents (from the top of my head, at least Europe, Asia, North America, and Africa), hence the name World War 2 (the first one was in 1914-1918, this one went on from 1939 to 1945). They killed combatants, they killed civilians, they killed children, they worked people to their deaths, they humiliated them, and they tortured them.

      All in all, the Second World War took away around 80 million people. The vast majority were people from the Soviet Union (~23-24%) and China (~19-20%). The third place took Germany with less than 8%. About 62% of all deaths were civilians.

      That’s what they did. They practically wiped out one huge country because they didn’t see them as humans.

      Every 5th-6th person was dead in Poland. Every 7th-8th in Soviet Union, every 9th in Germany.

      That’s why they’re not just hated, but despised with burning passion.

      On a side-note, what’s insane to me is how little attention is given to the atrocities Japan caused in China. Soviet Union is at least getting talked about, but Japanese people have no idea their ancestors did this. As a Russian, I knew that China had it rough, to say the least. But I didn’t know it was to that extent! And 80% of those were civilians.

      Edit: Re-reading the question, I may have taken it too literally, thinking “what’s a Nazi?” instead of “what exactly do they mean by “Nazi”?”. Whoops, but I guess it doesn’t hurt anyway.

    • Bgugi@lemmy.worldEnglish
      36·
      7 months ago

      Depends on who you ask. It varies anywhere from literal Swatztika toters to “anybody I don’t agree with.”

      • DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafeEnglish
        2·
        7 months ago

        This what liberals say because they can’t define fascism themselves, sure.

        And it is a fairly broad accusation, by literal design. Mussolini himself said fascism can be anything convenient for the state in the moment, that’s why when it comes down to a hard definition they’re either descriptions of the actions of fascist states, vague listings of terms like xenophobia and authoritarianism, or pointing to things like Umberto Eco’s description.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.zipEnglish
          1·
          7 months ago

          Mussolini himself said fascism can be anything convenient for the state in the moment, that’s why when it comes down to a hard definition they’re either descriptions of the actions of fascist states, vague listings of terms like xenophobia and authoritarianism, or pointing to things like Umberto Eco’s description.

          That is a good enough description paradoxically. It’s what’s convenient for the center of violent power, ideologically untied from any moral principle and consistency, and connected to strength and self-sacrifice and, of course, interests of that center.

          To be honest, I’m sometimes thinking that for a political ideology he had a point, and mixing in morality there is just misguided. Like mixing in LGBTQ rights into military strategy as a criterion of its own (and not to have more manpower).

    • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1·
      7 months ago

      They’re often so hateful, you start to wonder if they even capable of love. In their ideology, harm to those that are allowed to be harmed are more important than doing good. It’s also ultimately a quite self-destructive ideology.

      Those who actually care about good things will ultimately be so disillusioned with the movement that they can either be convinced to leave (might be a long process with some potential fallbacks), or leave by themselves like me. I thought I was helping people by pushing for right-wing programs, but the more I learned about them the more I was disgusted by it. Wasn’t an easy job, since I was fed with a bunch of lies, especially on how “leftists” (anyone left of Benito Mussolini) should avoid “political correctness” and “communism”, so early on I was an edgier liberal (after being disillusioned by libertarians like a week in), then a boring liberal, then I found a YouTube channel named “Libertarian Socialist Rants”.

  • emmie@lemmy.mlEnglish
    710·
    7 months ago

    Idk if it’s some reference to real life events lately but I generally hate violence as anything other than self defense. Violence is a tool and not some kind of point in itself to pleasure yourself with. There are way too many bloodthirsty people all over the earth tankies and nazis alike that yearn for a bloodbath

        • chatokun@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          21·
          7 months ago

          Yes, but that gets into an agreement of terms. Define self-defense. Both of you may have different opinions on what that is, and what you call violence another may consider legitimate self defense.

          To give an example, one of Alex Jones rhetorical tricks is to say they only need to be defensive, not attacking first. Then a min or two later he’ll say the dems are already attacking you and your children, and that you’re already in a war.

          He doesn’t want to use the words directly to incide violence because he could be criminally charged, but he still wants to incite it. He’s also told people who asked him when it time to get the guns that God will tell them. He’s also stated he considers the voice in his head messages from God.

          That’s someone using it disingenuously of course, but for some people just preventing or pushing back on clear intentions and threats is enough. The crowds at say Charlottesville chanting “Jews will not replace us” and attended by people recorded in private screaming

          “Little fucking kikes. They get ruled by people like me. Little fucking octaroons. My ancestors fucking enslaved those little pieces of fucking shit.”

          Later, he continued, “Those pieces of shit get ruled by people like me. They look up and see a face like mine looking down at them.”

          To many, this shows clear intent and will to kill and enslave people like me, so how far do I have to let them get on with their plans before I can defend myself?

          • emmie@lemmy.mlEnglish
            11·
            7 months ago

            Well usually laws say that the defense must be proportional to an attack. If someone threatens you with words you probably shouldn’t decapitate them.

            Keep your cool and provoke them and watch their suffering if that’s enjoyable for you. I know for me it is.

            Today some priest crossed himself when he saw me. It was fucking hilarious and honestly semi arousing. Like imagine an adult man being so fucked up, suddenly your problems seem small.

            • chatokun@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
              1·
              7 months ago

              I don’t disagree with your points about words, especially in one on one conversations, or rather small groups. In stuff like organized events, protests at places like women’s clinics etc, it gets a bit murky. Because the offense there isn’t just words, they are concerted efforts to intimidate people. Anti abortion activists will shout, heckle, and condemn women going into such clinics, even if they’re not there for abortion (most of these places, including Planned Parenthood, often a target) also provide just general health for women. Contraceptives, pregnancy testing and planning, STD education, treatment, testing, mental health concerns, wellness and preventative care.

              By hindering access and intimidating people away, they are causing more harm than simply words, and so I think it’s right for people to counter protest. Not to punch them first or anything, but to show up in contrast of the bigots and in support of those who need the help. Not necessarily self defense, but still correct imo.

              Finally, relying of law of the land is an easy barometer to use, but it only works if those laws are actually fair. In apartheid states like South Africa used to be, or the USA used to be, would you agree with the laws of self defense there? Where for instant someone of my skin color could never defend myself against a slave owner?

              Many of the people you may be arguing with may not agree that the law adequately protects them. Some I may agree with, and some I may think is crazy. Many situations are nuanced and can’t be defined sown to a slogan or term. Lots of people who say “punch a nazi” don’t mean going down th> e street, finding and assaulting a nazi for no reason. They mostly mean be prepared to fight back, and don’t fall victim to the paradox of tolerance.