A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.
That will never happen while Netanyahu and his regime are in power. And the only time steps were taken in that direction, the Israeli Prime Minister got assassinated.
Assassinated by hard line Israelis who refuse to accept any type of two states solution. I have always wondered if we would have seen a true two state solution if Yitzhak Rabin hadn’t been shot. I think it probably would have happened.
After reading his biography I fully believe that he could have created Middle East peace he could have been so fucking great he was a good man
The crazy thing is he wasn’t some flower in the hair, love and peace is all we need kind of guy. he was part of the IDF and fought in several of the early conflicts. Then once he entered politics he was the defense minister for 10 years. He had the makings of any hardliner. But he was a guy that believed that peace was the only way forward for a conflict. A soldier who knew war and knew peace was the better choice.
Yeah that’s the best part about it… I firmly believe he was the last chance
Basically one part of the Israeli independence war was a small civil war between left and right Zionists. The lefties won (being more numerous and frankly more popular, after WWII and all) and created a left-nationalist secular state with some meritocratic pretense, friendly with USSR but also with France and UK and USA.
Then they realized the need for pluralism and let the righties back into politics (because of need for their participation and their representation in the military and elsewhere). The righties frankly were more normal then, but that both made them an acceptable force in Israeli politics and still didn’t remove the memory of that small civil war.
And then, after this assassination, a new force came in - the new generation of Irgun cosplayer righties, which wasn’t normal in any sense of the word. By now these cosplayers have hijacked the social discourse in Israel to the level where they both demonize the remaining lefties and the remaining lefties barely make any difference.
The problem with cosplayers is that they need to be grotesquely evil. Otherwise they won’t seem real enough. They also need to be grotesquely dumb. Otherwise their ideology’s inconsistencies will break them apart. Same as with Turkish state being (somewhat) more vegetarian and intelligent than Azerbaijan.
I think Clinton may have been the last individual human that could have prevented catastrophe in Gaza. He should have capitilised on it and essentially refused to take no as an answer from Israel. Instead, he just kind of went “oh well”, and here we are.
or while the us is interested in maintaining their geopolitical presence in the region.
honestly i doubt it would be that easy at all.
nor will the Hamas remain peaceful…
Considering they’re the only ones offering to lay down arms, I’d say they’re more likely to be peaceful than the IDF and Netanyahu, who are not making such an offer.
They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not “ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed” and “will do it again and again”.
So yeah they may lay their weapons down, but they never remain peaceful.
Source: https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html?guccounter=1
Okay? I still only see one side saying they’re willing to lay down arms. “This will end when we get an independent state” vs. “this will end when you’re all dead?” The former seems more reasonable to me. Your mileage may vary.
Your mileage may vary.
It does. I agree that Netanyahu has to go and Palestine should have the chance to be independend, but the Hamas has also to be put down for good. With those terrorist fucks and their degenerated supporters, there will be no peace in the middle east.
How did ‘Al Qaeda has to be put down for good’ work out for the U.S.?
Mission Accomplished! Haliburton won ^ every contract^
How did ‘Al Qaeda has to be put down for good’ work out for the U.S.?
Not that bad since Osama and Zawahiri are dead. Their last big terrorist attack against America was when, 2010? Against the west in general, in France 2015? Since then they pretty much done or in a clash with the Taliban. If we can do the same with the Hamas, I would call it a win.
You can’t shoot an idea. The only way to kill Hamas for good would be genocide. Or actually solving the underlying problem with Palestine, and so starving them of redicalised recruits.
If Palestine wasn’t oppressed, no one would be joining Hamas and they would have no power. This is a problem Isreal created for themselves.
I recommend this video, it really shows how what Isreal calls peace is still so oppressive.
They shouldn’t be ashamed to say it. Israel has no place on their land and should be removed. We aren’t talking about mom and pop tourists but militants that are forcing people out of their homes and killing their children.
What the fuck are you smoking?
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They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not “ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed” and “will do it again and again”.
Now do Israel with the same energy.
It’s pointless arguing this on Lemmy. Everyone here is convinced that the Islamic jihadists are oppressed and just want peace despite what they actually say and do.
I’m not saying that. You guys seem to think Arabs are born angry, though, and so can’t be dealt with just by not being consistently a bastard yourself.
Hey what’s your thoughts on manifest destiny? Just curious
Never heard of it
How do you feel about Irish independence then?
Hamas does not break ceasefire deals. Israel does that.
Israeli troops fire at Palestinians attempting to return to northern Gaza during cease-fire
There was an effective ceasefire before 7th October (apart from the random rockets fired Israel’s way) that was broken pretty badly. Making a ceasefire deal with terrorists that attacked you and took hostages and will never stop attacking you makes no sense.
Effective ceasefire = israel commits Genocide and nobody fights back?
24 September 2023 - Israeli airstrikes hit Gaza for the 3rd day in a row as West Bank violence intensifies
Nobody fights back? You’re having a laugh. They attack Israel constantly. That’s their faith and their purpose to get to paradise. Stop ignoring what they actually say
Israel just “defended themselves” onto Palestinian land and those Untermensch in their concentration camp should shut up and do nothing back for the rest of their lives! How dare Palestinians resist against their brutal oppressors! They should roll over and die in without fighting back like PA does in the West Bank!
But anyways, what was that about a ‘ceasefire’ before oct7?
You’re a terrorist sympathiser. They are not fighting in resistance because they’re oppressed. They’re trying to wipe out Israel because their holy book tells them to.
Effective ceasefire = israel commits Genocide and nobody fights back?
Keep moving those goalposts.
Did you read the date before jumping in to defend israel? Not a single goalpost has been moved here.
From “Holsum Hamas would never break ceasefires!” to “Well the so-called ‘ceasefires’ are just cover for Israeli genocide anyway”
Lmao, fuck this guy. He doesn’t give two fucks about Palestine or its people.
The Hamas leadership are a bunch of wealthy old men who live abroad in comfort.
Sounds familiar
It is. There’s remarkable symmetry to this (and most) conflicts, in a way.
Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place. If it works then you have peace.
Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place.
Alright, while on a moral level this offer would be definitely the right thing to accept (ASSUMING complete good faith), it could be much, MUCH worse. Hamas has shown a willingness and ability to commit to large-scale attacks on Israel - considering the long, long history of antisemitic and genocidal rhetoric Hamas officials have engaged in, “Five years of not disrupting an enemy’s plans and organization” is a five-year recipe for an even-better coordinated and funded attack.
Follow the North Ireland model independent verification of compliance (on both sides).
The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.
(Will there be splinter hardliners? Sure! There is a civil war at the end of Independence. But there is a promise of peace after the civil war.)
The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.
Yes, like I said, assuming complete good faith. But even then, laying down their arms wouldn’t mean that fighters for their cause would no longer exist; it would simply mean that a better-organized Palestinian military would take its place.
My point isn’t “Five year truce bad”, it’s “Five year truce good but there ARE reasons to not accept it even from an abstract standpoint”
A better organized Palestinian military is a natural consequence of independence. And ideally yes, the best trained Hamas fighters will be joining it and be under government control, fighting against the hardliner splinters to enforce the hypothetical Independence Peace agreement, rather than being the hardliner splinters.
The road to peace will be very very messy. It is the bed Israel made and has to sleep on. The time when a relatively clean, peaceful transition to 2SS could have happened was right after Oslo. But here we are and it’s either a super messy transition to 2SS that will require nerves of steel to not intervene in the civil war, or a super messy transition transition to a democratic post-apartheid 1SS that will also require nerves of steel and a political and cultural transformation. Or … the ethnic cleansing, which hardliners in both Israel and Palestine dream of and we all dread.
hamas can’t commit large-scale attacks on israel… Nobody can… Does anybody remember the iron fucking Dome that they have? Nobody is attacking Israel it’s retarded to think that they are.
Peace doesn’t sell arms (weapons)
Peace means Israelis can’t steal land from people their government murdered.
If you consider that Hamas only exists to fight against Israeli oppression over an ineffective PA, it makes sense that if the oppression ends, Hamas becomes irrelevant.
That’s a chicken and egg problem, though, isn’t it: Netanyahu’s government wants Hamas because the conflict keeps Bibi out of prison, and Hamas wants to remain relevant. All the same, the Israeli and Palestinian people are the ones who suffer due to both regimes being in power, and Hamas doesn’t shed its guilt just because Israel doesn’t want a reasonable Palestinian government. Neither side wants to blink because they have multi-generational hatred for the other side, and that means popular support for further violence probably isn’t going anywhere. You back down! No, you back down!
The result is that neither side is going to take real steps to deescalate, because both sides benefit from the conflict. That the Palestinians are suffering more, by orders of magnitude, doesn’t make either side’s position any less entrenched: Bibi wants to stay in power (and free), and Hamas wants to remain relevant and in power, and they’re more justified now than ever. Both regimes need to be replaced.
It’s important to note that for most of its existence, “fighting against Israeli oppression” explicitly meant Israel no longer existing. This is the first time I can remember them even implying that they would accept a two state solution.
they accepted a two-state solution previously, the isreali PM that was negotiating with them at the time was assassinated.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli law student who didn’t believe in the peace talks. Hamas didn’t even kill him, Israel did it. No fucking surprise there.
You saying Israel killed him is like saying Palestine committed Oct. 7th’s terrorist attack.
Israel didn’t kill the guy, a lone Israeli student did. This is one of those times when facts and nuance matter.
they accepted a two-state solution previously, the isreali PM that was negotiating with them at the time was assassinated.
That was Fatah, not Hamas. Hamas was irrelevant back in the 90s and didn’t rise to prominence until the mid-2000s.
Better check that history video again. It wasn’t Hamas at that table
That was in the 70’s, he was killed by a student, not the government.
And the PA, including Yasser Arafat, have turned it down 4 or 5 times. Yasser Arafat turned it down last time in 2002/2004(?). They have never taken it seriously.
Camp Davis and the Oslo Accords were a way for Israel to change the De Facto annexation of the West Bank into a De Juro annexation. While giving the PA a ‘semblence’ of a state still under Israeli Military Control. There was no offer of a sovereign state, nor of right of return. Arafat didn’t reject a Two-State Solution, he walked away from a verbal ‘offer’ of taking 90% (later ~80% once written up in Oslo) of the Occupied Palestinian Territories, while ignoring all Palestinian wants such as Right of Return and Sovereignty with an end to Occupation.
Camp David: a tragedy of errors - The Guardian
Deconstructing Camp David - Al Jazeera
What Really Happened Between Barak and Arafat at Camp David? - Haaretz
Oslo accords: 30 years on, the dream of a two-state solution seems further away than ever - The Conversation
If Arafat wasn’t serious about negotiations, why sit down at all and risk his position in the PLO? For decades the ‘Three Nos’ stunted any Arab-Israeli diplomacy, and the maximalists still hold sway today as they did then
Israel refused the right of return for Palestinians as a whole, while for decades doing all within their power to boost Jewish immigration, bankroll Aliyah flights, rubber stamp naturalization, and regular ‘missionary’ trips to visit US and European nations - all only for ethnic Jews, and their spouses.
A two-tiered system based on race is hardly a fair deal, especially in a democratic system where your people are denied fair representation whilst Jew from the world over are invited to jump on a plane and become a full citizen after three months
Every offer has been in bad faith, though, designed to be a non-starter so that Israel could claim they tried.
Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades: Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928, Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937, Arab League advocating for Unified State 1948
After the founding of Israel, the Two-State Solutions were utilized to further annex the Palestinian Occupied Territories and enact military control over Palestinians while denying them human and civil rights. This is apartheid. Despite this, both Fatah and Hamas have accepted a Two-State Solution on the 1967 borders, with the two most important factors being the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees and an end to the permanent occupation.
Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ
History of peace process - The Intercept
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out
And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them
Small details, I know
They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out
It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab. It’s not that they wanted ‘non-arab immigrants’ out, it’s that Zionist Settler Colonialism was quite different from normal immigration. Instead of integration, the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s. Many Palestinians opposed the Zionist Land Purchases and Immigration because of fears they would be forced out of their homes and communities, not because they were Jewish.
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them
Are you talking about the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians? Because that was planned and carried out. There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army.
It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab
If you have sympathy for that argument, what’s the difference with jewish people who want the same? Both wanted to be the first class citizens in their country.
the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s
That’s true, but it’s not different from renters who are forced out after their landlord sells the property. It’s not a ‘nice’ part of humanity, but it’s generally accepted as ‘fair’. Of course it’s true that most zionist immigrants had no plans to integrate with non-jews. Partly because of their own religious backwardness, partly because they moved there specifically to escape religious oppression.
There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army
There certainly was: Nebi Musa riots; 1929 Palestine Riots; etc. certainly showed the intent of many Palestinian Arabs to put an ethnic cleansing on the jews.
You’re quite wrong if you don’t think the ALA or others didn’t go in with the same intent. You should look up their logo or statements from their organizers prior to their attack. The only reason one side won is because the other side lost
They said they would accept 1967 borders in their 2017 charter, so it’s been done before. It was also less antisemitic than their previous charter. I think they’re trying to be less extreme and more flexible to get more recruitment maybe, but that’s just my guess.
4 or 5 other times it was offered and every time it was shot down by the PA because either it wasn’t from the river to the sea or all jews have to leave.
It was never about sharing, it was about keeping it all to themselves.
They’ve publicly held this position for nearly 20 years now. When they publicly adopted it and got elected as the new Palestinian Authority because of it, Israel immediately declared war and prevented them taking power.
Well, they did fuck around and find out. Now they are facing an existential threat of their own and suddenly reasonable?
Funny how that works
Hamas has lied about peace and democracy in the past. They became the state of Palestine by winning an election in which they promised to stop attacks on civilians and be democratic, then refusing to hold an election for 2 decades.
Israel is a genocidal regime and needs to be stopped. But that doesn’t make Hamas the good guys. A long-term solution can’t include the current governments of either Israel or Palestine.
Hamas won an election in 2007, which no other country accepted the results of. Israel responded with a blockade. Not saying they’re the good guys but it’s not like it’s a level playing field.
What! They “won” an election that nobody outside HAMAS found legitimate??? And then the country they promise to exterminate reacted? No way!?!?!?!?
Don’t let facts get in your way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
International observers noted that the elections, for the most part, were conducted fairly and in accordance with international standards.
There were some reports of voter obstruction - caused by Israel.
Yes also don’t forget that Fatah immediately led a coup against them, with public support and arms from Israel and support from US.
Quite a long term they have, 17 years and counting.
I thought we don’t accept the results of the election?
Immediately after the election, Fatah, with US and Israeli support dismissed the Hamas government, which Hamas obviously disagreed with.
At this point there’s a stalemate where we (the West) and Fatah don’t recognize the Hamas government and Hamas can’t call an election because they have not officially governed.
Nothing is stopping them from holding another election. There’s clearly a desire for one, since Hamas has violently quelled dissent in the past.
The fact of the matter is that Hamas is looking out for Hamas, and that they haven’t held elections in 14 years heavily underscores that.
To be absolutely clear, Israel is still the greater evil here. But that doesn’t mean that Hamas isn’t an authoritarian dictatorship either.
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’
-Article 7 of Hamas’ founding charter
They were founded to kill Jews and push them out of Palestine. They’re not righteous freedom fighters.
“Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr
They’re just as genocidal as Israel has been as of late, they just lack the same capability Israel does.
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990’s, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
No I don’t support Hamas as a ruling party, I want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections.
Thanks for the links, I’ll give this a read later today.
I think that person you’re replying to’s point is they won’t be able to recruit at the same right without the huge group of angry, oppressed people that Israel keeps producing. They’ll wither away out off non-relevance.
HAMAS exists to exterminate Isreal and its inhabitants. Their offer is ‘free Palestine, let us be the dominant political party, and let us form and official national army, then we chill for 5 years! Don’t worry what we might do after that!’
Hamas isn’t going to just die out if they win. Isreal would be suicidal if they agreed to the ‘deal’.
Hamas ran in the 2006 election under a completely different name, in an effort to demonstrate that they can in fact separate themselves from their militant faction.
Remember, Israel also had its origins in armed struggle (against the British).
Edit: although this is probably Israeli projection, given that the armed factions did become the Israeli military. And we all know what they’re up to.
Gotta love the wording in this article “Hamas, which is committed to the destruction of Israel…”
It’s because the “state” of Israel is inseparable from a military blockade that imposes a starvation regime and illegally settles lands in the West Bank in direct defiance of the UN. It’s like saying I’m committed to the destruction of the US because I’m committed to ending criminal wars of aggression, unconstitutional mass surveillance, and a prison system with 2 million residents.
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”
Made up tripe should be treated as such, and people who believe in any kind of religious doctrine are delusion and deranged. We shouldn’t trust religious people with positions of authority or power, look at where this has gotten humanity.
Fully agree.
And to be crystal clear - that applies across all religions. It’s all bullshit and none of it should influence people in positions of power in any government.
I think Israeli leadership has already made the decision that all of that region is their land and they’re not sharing it with anybody, or if they do, it’ll be smaller reservations, similar to American Indian reservations in the US. They just want the Palestinians to eventually fade away. Violent groups like Hamas just help them more than anything because it gets Israelis riled up and gives their military an excuse to go in and carve out even more territory, so I’m sure they don’t even care about this, they’re like, “Why would we want you to lay down your arms?”
I think Israeli leadership has already made the decision that all of that region is their land and they’re not sharing it with anybody
Left unchecked, this is only going to be the beginning.
Jordan condemns far-right Israeli minister over “Greater Israel” map
Jordan accused far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich of violating the peace agreement between the two countries after he gave a speech in Paris at a podium featuring a map that included Jordan and the occupied West Bank as part of Israel and said the Palestinian people were “an invention.”
https://currentaffairs.adda247.com/greater-israel-map/
The term “Greater Israel“ has been a contentious and debated concept related to the State of Israel and its territorial boundaries. This article explores the controversial idea of a “Greater Israel” and the various interpretations surrounding it. The concept of a “Greater Israel”, according to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, is a Jewish State stretching “from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”
And they pretend to be outraged when they hear “from the river to the sea.”
That map is disgusting.
it’ll be smaller reservations, similar to American Indian reservations in the US.
The genocide of Native Americans happened when the world was less civilized, people as a whole were less aware and more disconnected. Allowing genocide in any era is unacceptable, it shouldn’t happen now.
I would personally reject this deal.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.
I would personally reject this deal.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas.
Instead, they deserve to live under the genocidal tyranny of Israel. Clearly that’s the much better choice.
Why do all of you message me specifically to use the same dishonest bad faith debate tactics?
You said the thing they’re responding to. What are they gonna do, shout their reply down a well? Also, it’s not bad faith just because you disagree with it or don’t understand it; there has to be some intent to deceive or mislead.
After Ireland gained independence they fought a civil war. Same in countless outer places. The Greeks fought one while fighting for independence. I fully expect the Palestinians to do the same.
The thing is: the Israelis don’t get to decide any of this. That what independence from Israel means.
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Americans, man.
I dunno the question but the answer is more guns B-)
Israel is preventing this because, in practice, most people don’t want to die in a civil war. This would just lead to better-equipped terrorists killing even more Jews.
They also do not deserve to live under an Israeli genocide.
I mean yeah, but why can’t we have a two state solution that gets rid of Hamas as a governing authority and also stops genocide?
The thing you will notice about these accounts is that they aren’t actually allowed to make unqualified anti-Hamas statements.
Because they almost certainly aren’t real accounts.
Everyone who thinks different than me are not human.
Clearly humans are operating the accounts, friend.
Are you being forced to jump to the defense of Pro-Hamas accounts, or is it a hobby?
Oh, it’s just that everyone that thinks different than you is under duress huh? Or paid? I guess I’m that case I don’t think you’re being vacuous.
I have probably 15 accounts in my inbox accusing me, an explicitly pro-Palestinian person, of being pro-genocide, because I have made anti-Hamas comments. You being one of them.
Perhaps you have a better explanation. Is the movement so full of idiots who can’t differentiate between Hamas and the Palestinian people, or is something else happening here? You tell me.
Hey it’s you again… Getting paid overtime this weekend I hope
Probably thr same rate as you. Though somebody told me they aren’t actually paying you, just offering vague promises of virgins in the afterlife.
Lol there is no afterlife my guy. So ain’t no promise of virgins is going to convince me to do anything.
Why would I want to fuck virgins anyway? I’d prefer the ladies be somewhat experienced… Otherwise it’s boring.
I wouldn’t accept payment for this, I have a real job that’s actually productive and makes peoples’ lives better in tangible ways. That’s enough for me. This is just bonus.
Maybe that’s just a “leftist” attitude that you can’t comprehend.
Are Pro-Hamas tankies actually part of the left though? I don’t know, man, so far I would say you are severely too rightwing for me.
The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972. After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted. This has been a deliberate tactic of De-development.
Gaza Policy Forum summary: Experts agree that Israel’s dual-use policy causes acute distress
Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986. (Arguably, the economic terms of the Gaza—Jericho Agreement modify the situation only slightly.)
- page 240
In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60 percent over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50 percent decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (com- bined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.
- Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
What specifically in this wall of text is a direct response to what I said?
All you said was complete stupidity. 19 years of rule under Hamas only produced terrorist tunnels?
All of that is a direct response to 30+ years of Israeli genocide.
Building tunnels as the sole piece of infrastructure for your people is the sole response to a 30 year genocide?
I don’t think that is true, and I don’t believe you think that is true either. It sounded good when you said it though, and I’m sure it felt even better.
the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.
I wasn’t the one who said that tunnels were the only thing they have done, that was literally you. But it’s also irrelevant because I wouldn’t expect any infrastructure works to be prioritised when a small country is under attack.
When the IRA demanded their land back, we were allowed to agree with their cause of no occupation without saying that their tactics of bombing trains was a good thing.
When the LTTE violently attacked Sri Lanka, people were allowed to feel for the ongoing Tamil persecution, without agreeing to the murdering.
Why can’t I say that Hamas is a product of its environment, caused by the pain that Israel creates while also saying that the actions of Hamas are terrible.
The money never made its way to the Palestinian people, is the point.
Where did it go?
It said a free Palestinian State not Hamas rules
Probably, but they don’t deserve to live under Israel either, and one of those is much more effective at killing them all.
Two state solution has to be the way to go, after that the people can have a Palestinian Spring if they want and overthrow Hamas, but whoever comes after is likely not going to be much better. They never are.
Yes, a two state solution is the only viable option. The problem is that Palestine never agrees to any of them. They won’t this time either. As far as Hamas is concerned they’ll only accept it if Tel Aviv is part of the independent Palestine. They regard the whole area as Palestine.
The guy in the op is literally talking about the 1967 green line.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism
An independent Palestinian state would give the Palestinian people a chance to throw off the yoke of Hamas.
I don’t believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don’t generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.
A lot of dead Palestinians will be on your hands if you are wrong here. The price of being wrong is too high for me to agree with you, though I wish I could.
I don’t believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don’t generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.
Man, if the choice is “right-wing fuckheads in a sovereign and potentially functional state” and “right-wing fuckheads in a Bantustan that’s currently being genocided by a foreign country, boosting the popularity of said right-wing fuckheads”, I think the choice is obvious.
I’m not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.
If Hamas wants to prove me wrong, and responsibly lead their people, maybe their political apparatus should stop being cowards, leave their Qatari skyscraper, and return to Palestine, and prove they want the responsibility of leading a nation.
They don’t want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.
I’m not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.
Hamas doesn’t have the power to carry out the genocide they want to. Israel does.
They don’t want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.
Fuck man, I’m anything but pro-Hamas. I don’t think they’re making this offer in good faith, and even if they were, there are certainly more resolutions to pick from. I’m just pointing out that between the current state of affairs and a bad peace, the bad peace is preferable.
So if the Hamas terrorists are in Qatar why is Israel bombing Palestine
I ask myself the same thing.
Right-wing fuck heads with weapons? You mean like israel? And you say the price of being wrong is too high for you to agree with someone… there is no price for you!!! You live in comfort, not being bombed everyday. You’re an armchair critic who pays not 1 ounce of a price for your dumb opinion.
The price is more dead Palestinians and Jews.
And no offense, but you aren’t paying that cost either. Doesn’t mean we deny the cost will be paid.
I mean there are literally almost no more Palestinians alive on Earth anymore but go off
Hamas has been given millions of dollars by Israel over the years while any other potential political group has been surpressed. Without Israel they may actually have a chance at forming alternative groups. There is already the blood of nearly 40,000 Palestinians on our hands.
You might have blood on your hands, but I don’t.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas
Depends. Does conversion to a political party imply free elections and opposition parties to exist?
No, obviously Hamas would not take a deal that is conditional upon [the UN?] removing them from power and holding elections.
Not obviously. Hence my request for clarification.
Which terror groups that took full power restored the right to vote after having already stripped their people of that right?
A terror group with full power is no longer a terror group.
So… You concede that there are no terror orgs who have expanded the rights of the people they control?
The basis of your statement is nonsensical.
Terror organisations don’t control the rights of people. (If they did, then terrorism would not be needed)
Which is why they won’t be handed autonomy over Palestine.
Glad we are in agreement.
But are Hamas asking for autonomy over Palestine? Conversion to a political party doesn’t necessarily imply this.
Ahh yes. Reject the deal, continue the starvation and murder of thousands and thousands of Palestinians by Israel. Because what would be more liberating than being murdered?
I see statements like “Free Gaza from Hamas” to justify the continued genocide. It is no suprise, given that the Nazis wrote “Arbeit macht frei”. “Work makes free”,
Twisting genocide into claiming it to be a liberation of the people they are genociding. Now i am not sure, if you belong to these bad faith people, but if you wonder, why you are getting backlash, it is because your statement seems to be advocating for that.
Why do you automatically assume somebody who is anti-Hamas is pro-war?
Probably so you have an excuse to call people Nazis.
I won’t be engaging with that nonsense. You can message again with an intent of more respectful dialog or you can be blocked.
If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should acknowledge the consequences and the context of “not taking a deal from Hamas”. And these consequences are continued death and destruction. You didn’t address that context. Which is why i provided the context of these kind of statements by people using these stances in bad faith.
I agree…but one thing at a time. When Palestine is free, then they can get rid of Hamas. But right now, they’re on the same team against Israel…against literal genocide. A violently oppressive fundamentalist government is obviously something to shed when you have a state to expel them from. But they’re living under the worst case scenario right now. Hamas is their only defense at the moment against genocidal colonialist state. Fighting a battle on two fronts is a recipe for complete destruction.
You mean to fight the occupation?
Haha. Some fight. Millions of people living and dying in poverty and malnourishment so they could do a mass shooting of 1,300 people. They really showed em!
They have zero chance of fighting Israel and the only proper course for Hamas is an unconditional surrender and whatever peace terms Israel will grant them. They should be lucky to get the rights due prisoners of war. Usually you have to put yourself in a uniform to get those rights.
This is the reality no one wants to accept. Either surrender unconditionally, or be ethnically cleansed because it’s clear the rest of the world’s governments don’t care.
Yeah, it’s clear ethnic cleansing, God of Blood, only 2.06 million of 2.10 million Gazans are left!
Yeah, and we’re 7.5 months into the war. Over all of WWII, the Nazis couldn’t kill all of the Jews (and everyone else they were trying to kill) in Europe. Give it time. If they’re allowed to keep this up, there will be a more complete ethnic cleansing.
The Palestinian cause was already dying and it was only time before they were erased or expunged. What hamas did was revive that cause, even if you don’t agree with them killing civilians (which i dont either). Most Palestinians were already living in terrible conditions and not because of hamas but because of the israel blockade of gaza. Which rendered it essentially to concentration camp.
The 1300 figure wasnt all by hamas. And from what we know so far about 300 were soliders, 300 were killed by israel themselves in the crossfire, and 300 were indeed civilians.
So far hamas has done pretty good for it self and has made some losses for israel. At the very least you can see its not a victory for israel.
Bud anyone that died in the chaos on October 7 was killed by Hamas. That’s how criminal culpability works.
The blockade too was caused by Hamas and its ideological allies and predecessors. Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership. They turned every public institution into instrumentalities of international terrorism. Hamas is the enemy. It’s sad they have used psychotic interpretations of Islam to convince apparently significant portions of the Gazans public that Martyrdom™ is a civic duty, like where a legitimate state might have jury service or voting, but an evil, fanatical thing, not civic at all.
By your logic, Israel’s government is just as culpable: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership
What a disgusting lack of knowledge of the areas history, wow
…can you be more clear about what your comment means in reference to what I said?
“tunnels to commit terrorism from” is hardly objective. Terrorism is what oppressors call fighting for one’s freedom, and Israel is invading territory which is not theirs, ergo, your comment appears to be cheering from the wrong side of history. The way your comment stands, it seems to end on a different sentiment than it starts off with.
Before I engage with a blatantly Pro-Hamas statement, please first explain how Hamas is fighting for the freedom for Palestinians, including women and LGBTQ citizens.
If unable, and you refuse to revise your Pro-Hamas stance, you will immediately be blocked.
An anti Israeli (Zionist) stance isn’t equal to pro Hamas.
The guy was literally stating what happens during an occupation.
The victors write history
Unless you are responding under a different account, I am going to give the original commentator a chance to respond and revise his statement.
Claiming that the modern political apparatus of Palestine are mere freedom fighters is a lie, and I will not engage with it.
No, not same person.
So in other words you’re a Zionist?
GREAT! /s
Every action has a equal and opposite action. Eg you attack civvies you create ‘terrorists’ aka Hama’s
Israel created a problem that allows them to syphon money from other countries for committing genocide
What does it matter if they have other political motives? The world is enabling their utter annihilation, children, babies, innocent people with no political ambition. That must be stopped before we wring our hands about what they might do with freedom. They are human beings, people with lives and families, not wild rabid animals.
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Why would that go better in Palestine than in Afghanistan where the people didn’t fight the terrorists even after decades of training, arming, and attempted nation-building?
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I think an autonomous zone like we see in Syria would be a great thing.
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An autonomous zone is a geographical area in which the established state has lost (whether temporarily or permanently) authority, and the people within the zone are governed through direct democracy. I believe democratic anarchism is the term most autonomous zones fall under.
I think the Palestinians, or at least Gazans could strongly benefit from this. But of course, to set something like this up, we need to get the Palestinian people food, water, weapons and radios, all things are which both Israel and Hamas are preventing the Palestinians from having.
“Best we can do is value menu holocaust.”
Even that they are failing hard at. Despite all the unimaginable cruelty and choicest Western weaponry, all they have succeeded in is causing utter destruction and wholesale slaughter; they have neither decisively defeated Hamas or broken the resolve of a people they have blockaded more or less since 1967. What a bunch of losers.
With them on top of that new state? There will never be peace as long as Netanyahu and Hamas are in power. They all need to go
Unfortunately, in a recent poll 80% of israeli said that israel should take into consideration the suffering of civilians. Only less than 2% said they believed the IDF is using too much fire power. I think there is a deeper issue with people’s sentiments.
It’s interesting how you select one person from the israeli government but all of Hamas.
Hamas is far more peaceful than israel. They have proven this in 2018 with their peaceful march. The problem is that israel does not respond to words.
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Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who’s land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.
This isn’t a both sides argument, as western media tries again and again to frame every fucking story. This is the oppressed fighting back.
Terrorist labels aren’t used for armed forces protecting settlers as they rampage Palestinian villages. Terrorist labels aren’t used as hospitals are leveled. Terrorist labels aren’t used when they drop leaflets to tell civilians to move to a place to avoid getting shelled and then SHELLING that place. Terrorist labels aren’t used when a large percentage of children of a whole People grow up without parents because of mass murder. Terrorism isnt used for the decades of genocide. Decades.
Terrorist labels get used when those children become adults and respond how most of us would respond to the conditions of the open air prison in which they reside and will likely die early. Why on earth would you expect them to be peaceful?
Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who’s land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.
Jesus fucking Christ.
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And why haven’t they had an election in 18 years? Because they are a subjugated people and Israel won’t allow elections.
There are no good sides here, but that’s a particularly bad gotcha argument.
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Living under an Apartheid State with no human or civil rights, subjected to violence Occupying Force on a daily basis, is not ‘having a border with them’
Edit:
To clarify, my point is that free and fair elections are impossible under an Apartheid Regime.
Hamas certainly tortures and kills political rivals, and has been exposed for corruption. In addition, Fatah is also corrupt, seen as working at the behest of Israel at the expense of Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Both have been funded by Israel as part of a Divide and Conquer tactic. Israel also has a long history of assassinating more moderate and leftist political Palestinian rivals.
Hamas Victory Driven By Desire To End Corruption WPO
Hamas Political Violence in Gaza - HRW 2009
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict - Amnesty
Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption in Hamas-controlled ministry - Amnesty
Palestinians furious and fed up with corruption of Abbas’s ‘mafia’ PA - MEE
“Divide and Rule”: How Israel Helped Start Hamas to Weaken Palestinian Hopes for Statehood - DemocracyNow
Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations – review - The Guardian
If they were so in favor of Elections how come Hamas is the ones who cracked down on all those Palestinian protests the previous summer?
Because Netanyahu is not Israel and Hamas is not Palestine. Why do I not name Hamas leader? Maybe cause it’s not common knowledge since they hide in Egypt and Jordan, in their villas and don’t come out except to bomb malls and steal humanitarian supplies meant for Gaza.
But seriously why are you defending terrorists? I’m not defending Netanyahu, I’m saying he needs to be gone.
I’d love to see your thoughts if you’d been in the area to experience Hamas’ “peace” on October 7th.
Why would I visit an apartheid regime that colonizes stolen land?
I certainly hope you’re not an American and have never been to the United States, because I’ve got some unfortunate news about who that land properly belongs to.
Are Americans actively being resisted against by the people they are occupying or has there been a peace treaty somewhere?
I wonder.
The charter of Likud says
Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
so let’s see if Israel chooses security or expansion this time. Every other time they have chosen expansion and a Greater Israel, but hopefully they choose peace this time.
Can indepent mean independent from Hamas (which was basically crafted by Israel)?
According to the definitions of the words yes it can
I don’t think they would, but I certainly support testing this claim.
dude LET’S GO
Pre 1967 borders.
Youd have better odds of me shitting out a herd of albino rabid kittens than Israel ever agreeing to those terms.
sounds good
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Update: it was rejected.
Great news, too bad israel has zero interest in a Palestinian state nor peace. Israel wants to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians and expand their Lebensraum That much has been fully proven over the last six months.
With Biden sending 26 Billion dollars to reimburse all the costs of this Genocide, without strings attached, it’s clear that the path forward for israel is to now fully commit to their Gaza Holocaust.
The “genocide” would halt immediately if Hamas returned the hostages and surrendered themselves. Hamas has zero interest in that, and the Palestinians have zero interest in that.
Wat?
The genocide has been on-going in slow motion for decades, so there’s not chance in hell that Israel would stop, no matter what Hamas does. It’s baked into the country’s political system: It can’t have a one-state solution and remain a Jewish ethno-state, and it can’t have a two-state solution because the settlers are a vital part of the governing coalition. The only solution that Israeli politics can allow is to remove the people of Palestine. I’m sure they’d be happy with ethnic cleansing, but no other country can practically take in that many refugees, so the final solution is to simply kill them, which the IDF has shown no hesitation to do.
No israel has only said they will do a 6 week temporary pause and then continue the Genocide your claim is false.
This article is more than 2 months old - Netanyahu rejects Gaza ceasefire deal and says victory is ‘within reach’
Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected the terms of a ceasefire in Gaza proposed by Hamas and rebuffed US pressure to move more quickly towards a mediated settlement to the war, saying there could be no solution to Israel’s security issues except “absolute victory” over the militant group.
Furthermore israel is currently also committing Genocide in the West Bank. Do you blame Hamas and hostages for that too?
I stand corrected. Makes sense if you’re close to wiping them out. Otherwise you go back to the previous situation.
Do you have evidence for a genocide in the West Bank? Thought not.
More than 2 months old
Yeah they’re real close. Just a few more years and they’ll get there.
Israel just committed Genocide in a hospital in north-Gaza which they claimed to have already conquered because Hamas popped up. So even the areas they claimed to have under control were not under control.
Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit
It must be difficult to stay in control with the tactics Hamas use, not caring at all about civilian lives, using human shields, suicide bombs, fighting from civilians buildings etc.
The IDF probably knows far more about that than we do
So you’re still defending IDF and israel now that all of the Hasbara got debunked.
So you’re still defending jihadists and their supporters
Oct 7th would’ve never happened if israel didn’t treat the Palestinians like human animals. If your excuse they hide terrorists whats your excuse for how they treat Palestinians in the west Bank where hamas isn’t a thing?
ISF reported 305 shooting attacks committed in or emanating from the West Bank in 2022, more than triple the attacks (91) recorded in 2021. In press reports, Israeli officials described these incidents as terror attacks
Hamas may not be based in the West Bank but other Islamic terrorists certainly are, and Hamas is certainly widely supported there.
Where do you live? How would you treat neighbouring countries that rocket attacked you constantly and wanted you wiped out in the name of their religion?
If anything Israel showed significant restraint prior to October
come to another persons land
steal their land and homes
kill their children and rape their women
humiliate their people
surprised pickachu face when they get radicalized and fight back
I dont endorse the extreme actions of hamas or any other group. But lets get something straight are you saying that all the oppression Palestinians face can be explained away by extremeist groups? Do you reject all the accounts of human rights organizations which have documented the plight of the Palestinians? And do you condemn the actions of israel?
It’s a tragedy whats happening to civilians in Palestine. Hamas needs to be destroyed and I hope Israel can minimise further collateral damage. (Though it must be exceptionally difficult with the tactics Hamas use)
But I hold the jihadist organisation Hamas (that still has widespread support) fully responsible for this tragedy, as I would hold the Nazis responsible for German civilian deaths.
So why extend the destruction to hamas who commits extremists actions but not israel?
Hamas butchered innocent civilians. They’re ruthless and evil. The IDF is butchering innocent civilians. They’re also ruthless and evil. There’s no good side to this.
That’s a false equivalence. Sure, there are extremist actions which you can point to. But to completely omit that it was the Palestinians people which were expelled from their land and massacred is disingenuous.
You say this as if the Jews weren’t expelled from their home and massacred.
The Palestinians pushed the Jews out before too. People have been fighting over the land for almost as long as people have been growing crops.
The Palestinians are the natives. Most have cannanite DNA. Palestinians aren’t just the Arabs/muslims but also include jews and Christians that have lived for as long. Jews who came from EU have no claim to the land
