I don’t like Joe Biden, I’ll never forget the Neoliberal bullshit he did with the Republicans in the 90s we are still suffering from further eviscerating the safetynet to the draconian war on people suffering addiction. He’s one of the OG former opposition party members the Reagan Revolution convinced to take the bigger bribe checks from Wall Street than Unions could ever match, today’s neoliberal(D) party.
That said, I voted for him in the last election, and I will again out of harm reduction. He has improved on policy, but l even if he didn’t, the American people do not get a vote on whether or not to elect a senile President this cycle.
You can have any President you like, as long as he’s senile. If you vote, we’ll get a senile President. If you don’t, we’ll get a senile President.
The question is whether you want senile and gleefully cruel®, or just senile(D). I’ll take just senile.
the American people do not get a vote on whether or not to elect a senile President this cycle
I feel like I’ve somehow become trapped in some kind of simulation or thought experiment where the purpose of it is to make lesser evilism seem as ridiculous as conceivably possible, and every time I think it’s peaked with just comical levels of absurdity, it somehow manages to escalate.
Except you do get to vote for no senility. That is what the primaries were for. Trump was actually struggling quite a bit against a young woman.
As was Biden for a hot second against a younger candidate. That was short lived. Biden was also getting a bit of a slap by a few people who were not on board for having Biden run the party again.
This is why you don’t sleep through the primaries and complain you only get the only one vote on parties.
2016 proved that wasn’t true. The DNC pushed the candidate they wanted, and the guy who kept being up or near Hillary just got ignored by the press so most people barely ever saw him. You don’t get to pick anything in the primaries. The two parties in charge tell you who you get to have.
You can have any President you like, as long as he’s senile. If you vote, we’ll get a senile President. If you don’t, we’ll get a senile President.
there are other candidates you can vote for
You’re still going to get a senile president.
Harm reduction dictates voting for the least harmful outcome, period.
the least harmful outcome is a third party winning
In which reality is that possible? Don’t be a dumbass.
The same reality that thinking voting for Biden in a rural deep conservative state is going to swing the vote. You can convince every person in the cities to vote democratic and still lose to the country side that state. Voting doesn’t work the same for every state, don’t shame people for voting their conscious. It’s always okay to shame voting for Trump, but don’t shame people for voting third party.
Afaik, that’s simply not true. Take a look at the margins that Biden won by in 2020 in a few key states.
You’ll notice that the third party votes could’ve easily swung the state outcome either way.
Finally, you’ll notice how far behind third party votes are. The conclusion I’m drawing is that the possibility of third party votes influencing the outcome between the two candidates is greater than the possibility of a third party candidate winning.
I think we both agree that there are locations and states where it does truly matter. I think where I’d disagree is that it’s not applicable for every state. Sometimes it’s already decided on where you live. It’s better not to shame third party voters in situations like that. The only way to get a third party one day is by starting in locations like that. Though coming from a situation like that, I also understand it’s a less stressful election than one that you have a chance of winning. Just not worth shaming others who don’t have the option of winning and vote third party for president for their conscious. Still voting blue for everything else though.
do not get a vote on whether or not to elect a senile President this cycle
Yeah this is just false.
Which candidate of our only 2 parties that matter isn’t senile this cycle?
He’s probably a brain parasite guy.
Poor little guy starved to death.
I support the brain worms for all American humans policy.
He said, with no examples or evidence of any kind.
Edit the way "vote’ is used in that sentence isn’t so much a ballot transaction…it’s more a “choice”.
Biden or trump WILL be the next president.
This sucks but cannot be avoided.
Edit edit choose left right or abstain, it’s all the same. A senile president will be the next president
Biden or trump WILL be the next president.
Both are over the mean life expectancy, neither is in particularly great health, and it’s another six months until the inauguration.
Sure. But the chances of both of them croaking in the next 6 months are very low.
Biden has the whole US government at his back, highly trained and motivated to not let the sitting US president die.
Trump, well, terrible bastards seem to never die.
But the chances of both of them croaking in the next 6 months are very low.
The way Biden looked with a simple cough? And with the physical burden a continuous high stakes campaign puts on a candidate?
Wouldn’t even be the first time a President campaigned himself into an early grave. Harrison, Taylor, Harding, and FDR all leap to mind.
Biden has the whole US government at his back, highly trained and motivated to not let the sitting US president die.
All the SS agents in the world can’t save you from COVID
Bruh called it.
If you’re counting on one of them dying before the election, keep dreaming. FFS, Trump might very well run while incarcerated and it probably won’t dissuade anyone who is already committed for him.
Trump might very well run while incarcerated
I’d put more money on one of them dying than seeing the inside of a prison cell. The judge in the Trump trial explicitly stated that he did not want to put a sitting president in prison.
Trump isn’t a sitting president yet, he’s still a former president.
Judge Merchan said that before the guilty verdict, when Trump violated his gag order 10 times consecutively. His next words after “I don’t want to put you in jail” were “…but I will if you continue to jeopardize the judicial process.” (paraphrasing). Obviously, the judge did not want to resort to jail for criminal contempt because the case had a lot of eyes on it and jumping to jail before issuing warnings and fines gives the impression of impropriety or bias, which could have been grounds for a mistrial had he taken Trump’s bait.
Most people think he’s going to walk on the basis that he has no prior criminal convictions and that he’s the presumptive Republican nominee, but there’s also the fact that he’s shown no remorse for his crimes even after the verdict and that allowing him to escape a prison term with a slap on the wrist house arrest or a fine will not realistically deter him or others from committing the same crime.
I’d say it’s still a good possibility that he sees jail. Probably not for the max 3 year sentence, but some token amount of incarceration would be appropriate. He’ll likely be out before taking office should he actually win, and they’ll probably make special provisions for him to continue campaigning, so he probably won’t even spend that much time in an actual cell.
The real kicker is his next conviction will mean he has to contend with a criminal history, which will vastly increase his chances of receiving actual prison time. That all hinges on him not getting elected and pardoning himself for all the federal crimes he’s accused of, the most severe of which being his role in the J6 insurrection and the classified documents case which could easily land him in prison for the rest of his life.
His next words after “I don’t want to put you in jail” were “…but I will if you continue to jeopardize the judicial process.”
After the tenth contempt citation.
Most people think he’s going to walk on the basis that he has no prior criminal convictions and that he’s the presumptive Republican nominee, but there’s also the fact that he’s shown no remorse for his crimes even after the verdict and that allowing him to escape a prison term with a slap on the wrist house arrest or a fine will not realistically deter him or others from committing the same crime.
I doubt he’ll make this particular mistake another time, mostly because he’s got too much media scrutiny to still run around with high end call girls.
But when it comes to the actual governance? He’s not going to get punished for that.
I’d say it’s still a good possibility that he sees jail
I would not put any amount of money on it.
The real kicker is his next conviction will mean he has to contend with a criminal history
All the rest of the cases are either dropped or delayed until after the election. Either way, there’s not going to be a “next conviction” before it no longer matters.
Removed by mod
Lol
Edit if you think the dnc is going to flexibly react to new information, and bring up a non establishment candidate, at this part of the game, well, you do you.
You seemingly need to hurl insults to disagree with people. Thats pretty lame. Disagree with my position all you like, that’s fine. But acting out isn’t helping your position.
So yeah, let’s chat again later on. I personally don’t think it’ll be anyone but trump or Biden.
Edit edit still no examples or evidence. When you’re suggesting things other than the norm/the status quo are gonna happen, you need to show up with more than a wall of text and a lot of sass lol
Who says it won’t be an establishment candidate?
Chill, mate. Go for a walk…
I need a remindme bot for a year out, lol.
I feel like you’re technically right that there is a (highly improbable) chance it will not be between Biden or trump, but it’s not something I’d lean on this hard, haha.
It’s not improbable at all.
I was like “oh hey, that random dude called this a few weeks ago, I should swing by and say props, I wonder what they’re up to” and wow, you’re really trying to rub people’s noses in it, huh?
You were doing real damage with what you were putting out. Its a kind of lying, both to yourself and others, and need to be called out for it.
I love how you accuse someone of being wrong- then go on to say a bunch of unproven opinionated nonsense. It’s almost as if you don’t really know what you’re talking about.
Love that ratio!
It’s up to the DNC as to which candidate takes the running ballot. I’m betting there are a lot of conversations right now about who will be that person.
You are half right and half wrong because that decision will come down to whether establishment Democrats or populist Democrats win.
And to be quiet frank, I don’t even think the DNC gets a say. Since Biden is the incumbent, unless he bows out voluntarily, I don’t think we the people or the DNC get to choose.
Our hands are really tied when it comes to the presidential frontrunner, unfortunately.
It’s always telling when some one insists that a statement is true when they themselves know that it isn’t.
It’s 💯 the case the Biden isn’t the nominee today. I’m not arguing if it’s going to be a progressive or a insider that replaces him. Frankly, I could give a shit because either will be doing instantly better than Biden.
Biden is replaceable and there is a cult of personality that has developed that believes this isn’t the case. They’re wrong. There as delusional as the right wing MAGA crowd and their doing MAGAs work for them as the useful idiots that they are.
It’s important to keep it clear that I’m not arguing that some how magically were going to replace Biden with a progressive. I’m arguing that needs to, and will be, replaced. That’s what Thursday showed us, and I know for a fact that the Beltway heard this.
The party that needs to be convinced is Harris. And I think she can be. All of these machinations are happening this weekend, as we speak.
My called shot: Biden steps down as early as Monday, as late as two weeks from Monday. I’m going to be making some calls and seeing what tea I can find spilled.
I never refuted your claim in certainty, rebutting with my own truth statements. In my comment, I pointed to the variables in effect leading to whether Biden stays in the race or bows out. Realistically, it’s uncertain at this moment.
I will say that if and once donors dry up, I do think that the DNC will take action. What action that is will depend.
It’s going to be an exciting few days/weeks.
Or vote third-party, and you’ll probably get a senile President, but maybe not.
And more importantly, you’re helping to break the Duopoly and normalize voting third-party.
If a minor party manages to get 5% of the vote, they qualify for federal funding in the next election, and that might lead to real change.
Cornel West is polling at about 3% (and after Biden’s performance, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cornel picks up a couple more percent). We could be close.
Edit: Or just keep on thinking you have to settle for the lesser of two evils. (How’s that working out for you?)
If you’re in a state that will certainly be blue or red and has 0% chance of swinging unless a huge proportion of the population changes their party affiliation (California, New York, Mississippi, Alabama, to name a few) then vote 3rd party, sure.
If your state was within 10% of flipping colors in any of the past 3 presidential elections, DO NOT vote 3rd party. Your vote matters too much to risk it.
^THIS^
Yeah, that’s the conventional wisdom. When Ross Perot ran, most of his support came from states that weren’t swing states.
(Despite often being called a “spoiler”, he probably had little impact on the result of the election because of that.)
But! Later polls showed that 35% of voters would have voted for Perot if they thought he could win. And if all those people had voted for Perot, he would have won!
Just something to think about.
If we could somehow ensure that our actual desires were reflected by our votes without simultaneously risking our vote being wasted by splitting support between similar candidates, we could have actual representative democracy. But we all have a duty to prevent the worst to the best of our ability, even at the sacrifice of our support of what we think would be best, but unlikely.
Vote for ranked choice voting however you can. This paradox is intentional design, not an unforeseen consequence. We need to rework the voting system before things have any chance to get better without violent revolution.
It’s actually been mathematically proven that ranked-choice voting does not eliminate the so-called spoiler effect. It’s called Arrow’s Impossibity Theorem.
As people who live in a country with FPTP voting, we’re all intimately familiar with the drawbacks of FPTP voting. But all voting systems have their drawbacks.
(I’ve actually been a volunteer election worker in a country with ranked ballots and proportional representation, and the experience actually soured me on ranked ballots and proportional representation.)
Countries like Canada and the UK manage to have four or five parties with FPTP voting.
Stop waiting for the perfect voting system, because there is no perfect system.
Countries like Canada and the UK manage to have four or five parties with FPTP voting.
And they both are dominated by 2 parties. Hardly a defense of FPTP.
Stop waiting for the perfect voting system, because there is no perfect system.
There may be no perfect system, but there are certainly systems that utterly fail to capture the will of the people, and FPTP (especially the US’s implementation of it) is one such system. People aren’t going to magically all change their centuries long behavior of voting for 1 of two parties. This is a systematic problem, and the solution is election reform.
And they both are dominated by 2 parties. Hardly a defense of FPTP.
Justin Trudeau’s current government is a minority government being propped up by a minor party (the NDP). That minor party were able to get the government to pass a Pharmacare bill in exchange for their support.
With just 24 seats in parliament, the NDP were able to deliver on an election promise to their voters. I’d say that’s pretty good.
I disagree. I too have been involved in elections in my country (Australia) and preferential voting system is pretty popular. As candidates get eliminated your vote keeps moving to your next choice. What could possibly be fairer?
What could possibly be fairer?
Approval or STAR voting, since they are more heavily utilized by all citizens instead of just white people, they are purely additive unlike ranked, which allows for easy auditing and making sharing the results possible in real time.
They’re also far easier to explain, which makes voting more inclusive, and the results more straightforward to follow.
RCV is definitely better than what we have now, but if we’re gonna have election reform we should go for the best possible system, not a half measure like RCV.
And yet minor parties fair pretty poorly in Australian elections, and always have. Minor parties currently have 6 seats in Australia’s House of Representatives (up from 3 in the previous parliament).
In Canada, third-parties (Greens, Bloc Quebecois, and NDP) have 56 seats between them.
In the UK, there are 11 third-parties represented in the House of Commons, with 84 seats between them.
and he still would have lost. he got nearly 20% of the popular vote and exactly 0 electoral votes. until we change the system, they cannot win. sorry. please vote against fascism
Notably, had Perot won that potential 35% of the popular vote, he would have carried 32 states with 319 electoral votes, more than enough to win the presidency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot_1992_presidential_campaign#Results
But he didn’t. He didn’t get a single electoral vote.
Yes, but he would have won if everyone had voted how their heart desired.
Both major parties want you to believe that voting third-party is “throwing your vote away”, but it isn’t true. Simply expressing your heart’s desire and having it counted on the public record makes voting worthwhile, even if your candidate doesn’t win. (And in the case of Ross Perot, he would have won.)
You might as well say that voting for anyone except the candidate who is leading in the polls is throwing your vote away if that’s how you see it.
A woman from a formerly Communist Eastern European country once told me a story. After their country had democratized, there was an election held on the day of a horrible blizzard. Her mother and father wanted to vote for one candidate, and her brother and sister wanted to vote for the rival candidate.
“Why don’t we all just stay home, since our votes will cancel each other out anyway”, someone said. And so her mother and sister decided to stay home. But her father and brother went out into the blizzard to vote, knowing that their votes would cancel each other out.
They just wanted to participate in democracy. They wanted to express themselves and be counted, even if it didn’t change anything.
Once First Past the Post voting is gone, and ranked choice is in, third party will be viable.
But right now, that’s not the reality we live in.
Once the thing that’s never going to happen happens…
Well it’s certainly not going to happen if you ignore the realities of first past the post voting systems, vote third party, and let the party that depends on tactics to subvert democratic will win an election they shouldn’t have. Do that, and you may just not get to vote at all anymore.
Well it’s certainly not going to happen if you ignore the realities of first past the post voting systems,
If you’ve got a large popular mandate that reliably shows support for a policy (say, a large plurality willing to change FPTP to STB or Approval voting or whatever) then you can affect the change.
But even more than FPTP, we have a supermajority mandate to make changes to the electoral system on that scale.
Easier to win 50%+1 on an issue of policy than 67% on an issue of electoral function.
Do that, and you may just not get to vote at all anymore.
Civil Rights and Women’s Lib had to be achieved outside the electoral system, because these groups were deliberately disenfranchised.
Or vote third-party, and you’ll probably get a senile President, but maybe not.
Vote third party and we are guaranteed to get a senile president. It’s a two party FPTP system.
Edit: Or just keep on thinking you have to settle for the lesser of two evils. (How’s that working out for you?)
Better than telling people to throw away their vote. How’s that working for you? How many 3rd party presidents have you gotten elected with your strategy? How many fascist policies has your strategy avoided us?
I’ve long fantasized of people being so fed up with both parties, that along would come a third party at the right time and enough people would flock to them that and vote them into office.
But it’s just that: A fantasy.
And anyways, there’s always the chance that said third party would be way way worse and maybe there’s a good reason why they weren’t more prominent to begin with.
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have the same fantasy, but until we get election reform it will only ever be fantasy.
And until it happens, we will never get election reform.
Not necessarily. The MAGA crowd took over the GOP. The same could be done for the DNC, but with actual leftists and election reformists.
There are several reasons why the MAGA crowd were allowed to take over the GOP. First, because they weren’t pushovers, if the party had tried shenanigans to stop them there was a real possibility of people defecting from the party en masse, and even of violence at the convention. Second, because the things they wanted weren’t really all that contrary to what the rich donors wanted.
The Democratic base is much more weak willed and willing to go along with whatever to stop the right. We don’t have enough of that Karen energy, that “my way or the highway” attitude. And election reform is directly contrary to the interests of the establishment, and the aim of prioritizing ordinary people over the rich goes against the interests of the doners. They’ll crush any internal movement in that direction, and people will still vote for them because of “vote blue no matter who” and lesser evilist ideology.
Build a platform by building consensus, not pitching a longshot
Vote for all down ticket races and help get blue policy makers in every seat possible.
It’s obvious third parties have no chance. Why even pretend that’s not true?
What if I don’t like any of the major minor parties either?
If every single person on Lemmy voted third-party I guarantee you they wouldn’t carry a single state. In a two party dominated FPTP/winner takes all system voting third-party for president is irresponsible
In a two party dominated FPTP/winner takes all system voting third-party for president is irresponsible
So the two major parties keep telling us.
So stats tells us.
Vote third part and see how that works out for you.
Please don’t
Most of these people can’t be reasoned with. We’re at the point where there’s no excuses for them not to vote to keep Trump from taking over.
The gloves are off.
Okay, but swinging at third party people does nothing to sway them, tends to do the opposite, and tires you out. It’s like punching your own dick instead of your opponent in a boxing match.
They’re not third party. I’ll all but guarantee it. They’re just trying to ensure no one votes for Biden.
Because people not thinking like you is clear indication they are wrong. Sure
Will do. Thank you.
I am not going to vote for Joe Biden. I am going to vote for the Biden Administration. They can “Weekend at Bernie’s” the old man for all I care.
Biden could drop dead on January 21st and we’ll still get to call this mission accomplished, VP Jeffries ain’t a half bad outcome personally, although Kamala having her eyes on that incumbent effect is gonna make me groan come 28
Jeffries is literally one of the most corrupt neolibs in Congress in terms of taking bribe money.
That’s been the standard US Presidential SOP since Nixon developed a serious drinking problem and Kissinger demanded all orders go through him first (so as to avoid WW3).
They had an old, dementia ridden actor, and the dumb-ass Bush son for that reason, too. HW Bush could handle his shit but he raised taxes and puked on the Japanese PM so that’s a pass. Trump is just another stooge to be kept in line so that his doners get what they want.
This is a good perspective. Great way to look at it.
Sounds like a great strategy… smh
Might as well give Trump the presidency on a silver platter
Tell me you skim when you read without telling me you skim when you read. 🤣
Nah you should be advocating his replacement
Sounds like a great strategy… smh
Might as well give Trump the presidency on a silver platter
Better idea than voting for Biden’s earworms
Biden shit the bed and should fuck off. But I’d vote for his corpse over any filthy republican traitor.
Both candidates would be more attractive to me if they died actually lol I wish we had the option to just skip having a president for 4 years haha
Why is there no option in the US to vote no confidence and force both parties to reelect new candidates?
Because our electoral system was created 200+ years ago and hasn’t had a major overhaul since.
The biggest overhaul was the Apportionment Act of 1911, which destroyed proportional representation in the US House of Representatives and Electoral College. If not for that, the GOP would have to move Left to gain support from high population states.
Oh, so 200+ years ago it wasn’t so bad. LOL
That’s the thing. It still was but in different ways.
At least as pretense, the primaries are meant to prevent the need for that. And we like to pretend a third party could be successful if the other two are sufficiently incompetent/corrupt. In practice, the lawmakers will never implement a process that gives any amount of their power to the people. There was a window of time in the 90’s - 00’s where we thought the future might hold something other than the cyberpunk dystopia we all see coming. Now I’m reduced to just trying to enjoy the last vestiges of the middle class before it’s gone. Umm, but yeah, we should be able to vote no confidence.
Dunno if it’s interesting to you, but communists in Russia often say that it can only get democratic again when the “against all” variant is returned to ballots (CPRF is usually not considered something genuine).
Jesus fucking Christ I hate that I can’t tell if ur from the us or not cuz our constituency is so fucking dumb
A shame the electoral college voters won’t feel the same way
So the man has a stutter, and he’s old, what ever. All I can do is cast my single vote. Last time, I voted against Trump, and honestly, even after the debate, I’ll cast my vote this time for Biden.
I’d much rather cast my vote for Hakeem Jeffries, or Shift, or Bernie, or a dozen other people who aren’t an option.
Thing is, I’m going to cast my vote in Cook county IL, so it literally won’t matter. IL is going blue no matter what, and I feel like my participation is merely token.
I wish I could do more, I want to scream at clouds about what is happening to the country, and it doesn’t matter.
Saw a stat that says Trump is 65% to win, and want to physically grab people and shake them, but what would it matter?
Had I walked into that debate blind, not knowing who those people are, what the “facts” and the facts are, I’d have thought, that Biden guy seems weak and befuddled, and boy that Trump is sure a confident leader. It made me feel sick.
As I told my mother today, I don’t have kids, I live in the midwest, have a good job with a big stable company, truth is, even a second Trump term won’t effect me that much. I can just sit back, enjoy my 30 so years left, and watch the world burn, but damn it, I have empathy for others, and there are many, many people whose lives and livelihood are going to be seriously impacted, and that bothers me.
I’ll also be casting my vote in Cook county. I have hispanic kids. My wife is Salvadoran. She is a US citizen born and raised in the US. I’m a white atheist and a dual citizen of the EU who has had the audacity to previously speak poorly about my corporate overlords. I grew up in the south. I don’t trust these project 2025 fucks to stop at illegal immigrants. Biden sucks, but I’ll vote for him anyway because the system literally gives me no other option. Until the system changes or fails, this is what we must do.
If you value the supreme court, lower court appointments, social security, healthcare, childcare, the environment, action on climate change, a competent CDC for the pandemics we’re going to experience more frequently, etc., vote Biden. Yes he’s old. Yes he sucks. Unfortunately he’s the lesser of two evils. And by a wide margin.
If your district is definitely going blue then you could safely vote 3rd party… Think of it as a vote to change the fptp system. There is no way the system will ever change if we don’t start forcing it to.
2016 called, they want their apathy for keeping fascists out of the government back.
Sure wish the DNC and Biden would heed the call
This Biden protection is crazy. we need a candidate who actually stands a chance against Trump. this is insane. It’s 2016 all over again.
I don’t even see why that matters. Even if the candidate was an actual real turnip, the choice would be obvious.
I mean I don’t vote in your election but it seems quite clear to me.
I think part of our different view might be based on how our electoral system is.
So to explain: Trump’s never won a popular election before. Even when he became president, most Americans voted for his opposition Hillary Clinton. We have a very gerrymandered and corrupt voting system to oversimplify. Because of that The main decider for presidential elections is voting turnout. If a lot of people come out to vote, the Democrats usually win. If they don’t the Republicans win. Voter turnout is higher when people want to vote for the Democratic nominee. No one really wants to vote for Biden. Most of us will vote against Trump myself included. That being said, if we run a very unlikable candidate against him like we did in 2016, he might win and that’s terrifying. This election is serious so we should take it seriously and run somebody likeable and not half way to being a turnip.
God forbid if Biden stays in there, I hope he wins. I’ll even vote for him but I am not feeling good about his odds.
I think you missed their point. They, and many others, don’t know why anyone would vote for Trump to begin with. Of course, I said the same thing when he first started being presented as a candidate for 2016. Like, of all people, him? But, here we are today, wondering if he actually had a chance for another term.
A different voting method may have avoided him getting this far, but he really shouldn’t have even gotten out of the joke candidate category to begin with.
Because he has to be effective for four more years after the vote.
Fuck its like you people think everything just closes up for the next four years and elections are just a one-day championship ceremony
I’m not voting for the insurrectionist in 2024. I don’t care how frail Biden looks. The choice is obvious. I’ll worry about the next candidate.
Hey it worked out well when they protected Hillary…
Wait no it didn’t
Agree, this astroturfing is insane. I can’t help but think it’s a coordinated campaign, because Biden was very clearly senile in that debate, if not something worse. Democrats can still win if they let Biden retire and choose someone who can rebut Donald Trump.
Bush was clearly the face man of an executive admin that he didn’t run, he was s figure head. Clinton, it was assumed by the press and a lot of the voter base wasn’t running his admin, the first term Hillary was said to be running things and a slew of technocrats was assumed his second term, Reagan, we now know historically, was experiencing Alzheimer’s all through out his presidency, much like Trump, he also had a strict schedule of not even pretending he showed up to work.
There’s nothing wrong with electing the face of an administration you want in office, this is largely Obama’s admin still running the government, that’s what we all want. Unkie Joe can take all the naps he wants, it make no real difference.
I think it’s more insane to say that Biden doesn’t have a chance against Trump when he’s already beaten Trump once, which is why he’s President Biden.
And the guy who already beat him once just isn’t good enough huh
Any other candidate just wouldn’t have the name recognition. Millions of Americans just vote for the incumbent regardless of who it is
If Biden gets out of the way (of his own accord or not) and somebody else becomes the nominee, they will have name recognition immediately. I promise you.
They really won’t. I think as someone on Lemmy you’re probably overestimating how much the average person pays attention to politics
I appreciate the non-rude and direct response. Someone else raised this point to me and I responded with this link that shows 70% of Americans watch cable news. Considering digital news is much bigger now, that means even more Americans watch the news regularly, so I believe you are incorrect.
That’s not how public perception works. Most people don’t watch the news.
That is how public perception works. Anyone who became the Democratic nominee between now and the election would instantly be famous. Their name would become a household name within a week. There’s no real way to prove this, but it just seems silly to think otherwise.
Most Americans do watch the news. The link below is a statistic just about cable news. If you included digital news, the numbers would be even higher. Here’s my source 👈😎 But as you can see 72% of Americans watch cable news.
I hope that helps ☺️
Right, anyone who thinks their name and the attention wouldn’t go viral overnight is clueless. It will go something like this:
BREAKING NEWS: Joe Biden to RESIGN FROM THE PRESIDENCY; ENDORSES GRETECHEN WHITMER
For 5 weeks:
MEDIA: omfg omfg omfg omfg
SOCIAL MEDIA: omfg omfg omfg omfg
MILLIONS GOOGLE:: “Who is Gretchen Whitmer!?”
OBAMA, BIDEN, DNC rally behind Whitmer
WHITMER’S POLLING & NAME-RECOGNITION: Skyrockets
At convention:
MEDIA: Omfg omfg omfg
GRASSROOTS: ENERGIZED.
Swing-voters: Happy to vote for someone young and a fresh face because we’re America and we like new less boring shit.
Removed by mod
I hope you find a way to be happy one day stranger. It’s got to be miserable being that angry all the time. 🫂 I don’t think you find the release you need being rude to strangers online but where ever it actually is I hope you find it.☺️
Hey now that we have the benefit of hindsight I just wanted to show you how wrong you were and how confident you can be that youre right when you’re so so wrong please be a little more open-minded going forward and listen to people😏
Is this the new liberal bible prayer each night? Keep telling yourself
god is real and he loves youBiden will win because he’s a “good” choice for the idiots who don’t know better?
raspy voice
The gaslighting will continue until morale improves.
The people here are either delusional or trying to convince themselves they didn’t see a disaster of a debate.
“So he didn’t somersault onto stage” That… That’s not the issue here
Legitimately I can’t tell how much of it is self-delusion and how much is just blatant lying. Either way, these geriatric ghouls don’t deserve this level of mental gymnastics.
Even liberal media like the NYT are admitting it, and we can all see him with our eyes, I don’t see what this sort of blatant denialism is supposed to accomplish other than demonstrating in-group loyalty.
It’s not even in-group loyalty. In-group loyalty would be having the decency not to gaslight homies.
It is blue MAGAism. I’ve kept telling it people here for months and kept being shunend with the same ridiculous lines of argumentation. Either on Bidens health or for me more importantly on how supporting genocide is somehow a good and acceptable thing, because god forbid we demand and enforce a non genocide non neoliberal candidate.
Which brings me to another point. Trump was on brand. Everything he said was more or less predictable. Meanwhile Biden trying to talk about social justice and tax justice was clearly not his tune. So not only did the campaign managers not manage to prepare him for Trump being Trump. They gave him stuff to talk about, he doesn’t talk about normally, making his performance even less believable.
I don’t get what blue maga actually means. Does it get tossed both ways?
And I get frustrated that peeps can agree with others like 95 percent of the time then get absolutely shit on for having a differing opinion. If I can make a chain from what you said to a bad outcome with logical fallacies you’re obvs a nazi.
Yeah. Trump was Trump. I’ve never bothered watching his insanity so I don’t know if/how much he’s declining. But he’s a known quantity and not super interesting.
Blue MAGA as in dogmatically following and defending the leader, while deflecting any valid criticism with extreme vitriol. I have been called a secret Trump advocate for saying that Biden is a genocide supporter and in declining mental health. Pointing out that the Dems could have propped up a better candidate and need to do that, was met with attacks.
Saying that they are alienating minority voters was met with racist attacks against those minorities, claiming them to be dumb. Actually they willing to face much more threats than the white upper class liberal from a Trump presidency, but they have the backbone to say that genocide is a red line and they understand that if they accept one genocide the next one is coming, until they are the ones being genocided.
Any notion that the Democrats are an establishment party that is playing with fire by continuing down their establishment road instead of working towards being a real progressive alternative that most people would love to vote for, was shunned.
It is political delusionalism, fueled by gas lighting from the DNC cabal. Instead of motivating their base, instead of providing a vision and inspiration they chose to gaslight, shame and threat their base into submission. That is how you build a cult and that is how you destroy any progressive political movement. Because then all people are left with is fear of loosing out, which is easily exploited by fascists like Trump.
They did the same shit with Hilary. Just memory holed anything negative.
Because then all people are left with is fear of loosing out, which is easily exploited by fascists like Trump.
We need electoral reform that removes as much strategic voting as possible.
I don’t think this would convince anyone, but Trump has shown that lying about every fucking thing can convince some people. Maybe a less dumb version of this meme could move the needle for someone who is on the fence and hasn’t watched the debate. (There are dozens of them out there)
No idea why this was posted here though, or how so many people approve of it. It’s the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen. I guess there’s a lot more people on the platform who have legitimate Trump derangement syndrome and find this acceptable than I would’ve thought.
I don’t see what this sort of blatant denialism is supposed to accomplish other than demonstrating in-group loyalty.
That loyalty is a goal in itself for people not knowing any better.
For others it’s a way to make Trump win.
What I don’t get is how RFK Jr is still seen as something worse than a senile man and a man with terminal stages of neurosyphilis. He just has brain damage and some overvalued ideas, very well known and clear. While these two are simply not functional.
But then maybe it’s good I live in another part of the world.
Alternative is 4 years of more maga federal judges causing multiple generations of damage. It doesn’t matter at all about Bidens health. He has advisors. He has a vice president. No one would be filling federal benches in sewage. That it all that matters.
What does that have to do with anything? Did you reply to the wrong comment?
If you can’t keep up, I don’t know what to tell you.
Ok then, here’s my response:
There are strong ethical and practical arguments for going vegan, including reducing animal suffering and carbon emissions and reducing the risk of food contamination.
If you question how that relates to the conversation and isn’t just a complete non sequitor, then you can’t keep up and I don’t know what to tell you.
Cool story bro
Sounded like you were saying “just calling it raspy voice is gas lighting”
Yes, which it is. What does that have to do with anything you said?
Because his voice/health has absolutely nothing to do with the election and shouldn’t change any vote from Biden since his health is of no consequence whatsoever.
since his health is of no consequence whatsoever.
Uhm yes? That is the entire point. It is a stressfull job and you need to be at full mental and sufficient physical capacity to handle it. Biden showed that he is not up to it anymore. Trump also is starting to show signs of decline, but he is further ahead of the curve than Biden is.
Either candidate is unfit for office, but for Biden health is the crucial issue. And old age is not something you can recover from. Just statistically it is entirely reasonable to expect either one of them to die in office.
In the unique situation that the country finds itself in with an authoritarian destructive candidate is that any mid alternative is golden. In any other election then less important things like the health of the leader of one of the parties(pres candidate) does matter.
In our situation if the mid party leader dies then he is replaced by another mid. The identity of the mid is of no consequence at all.
We weren’t talking about the election or who to vote for, we were talking about his health. You can say that his health isn’t relevant to the question of who you should vote for, but you’re the one who brought that up in the first place. I’m just responding to a lie.
It’s literally just whataboutism, or a non sequitur. If a Trump supporter says something objectively false and I correct them, it would not a valid response for them to bring up problems with Biden in response to that. In the same way, if a Biden supporter says something objectively false and I correct them, then it is not valid to respond to that by talking about problems with Trump.
I’m allowed to keep you people honest, even if acknowledging reality is inconvenient for your narratives or goals.
Debates are little more than performances and Joe completely shit the bed.
This. Debates mattered 20+ years ago, when Candidates had just a few opportunities to talk about who they are, what they’ve done, what they want to do, and why those qualities make them the best choice for President.
Now, we have a near inescapable connection to politics. The content of the message is known, and the only reason for debate is confrontation, and delivery is all that matters.
tbf, debates have the potential to cut through the bubbles people put themselves in. You’re not seeing a manacured presentation of potential policy, you’re seeing it actively challenged…
At least, that’s the idea
I’m sure I didn’t originate that, but it’s fun to see it said.
People aren’t even giving him crediting for beating Medicare!
/s
In all seriousness though, I just can’t understand how someone can watch the 2020 debate and 2024 debate, and say the only thing wrong with Biden was his voice…
Like, he wasn’t great in 2020, but 2024 made it sound like Obama in comparison.
The worst part is he was coherent afterwards. The fuck happened.
I think he was massively over coached. Trying to fight to remember a ton of talking points and then getting them muddled up and stuck in that detail. He’d have been better off just freestyling it.
Seriously he just needed one or two dark brandon moments to get trump on tilt and it’s smooth sailing from there. Oh well. I’ll enjoy the dem campaign managers running around with their hair on fire while I can. They should’ve managed someone else into the spotlight years ago.
I hate that the can’t have notes, they should have a whole team up there to craft the best answer because that’s what I want them to do in real life, work as a team leveraging all available resources to make the best choice
My bet is that Trump’s stream of bullshit just threw Biden off completely, and his quick recovery to that fiery speech was him getting pissed that he got curbstomped by Shitler in a debate
Next debate should hopefully be VERY different
No way should it have. In fact that should have been the literal one thing they were expecting.
Hence him getting pissed after. Embarassment due to being stomped by a strategy he knows about
I may be a shitlib for saying this but biden debated trump before and handled him. There’s no reason he couldn’t have handled him now, except his brain is soup. Trump’s brain is likely in a similar situation, but seeing as he already spoke like a 3rd grader, the difference isn’t as alarming.
If that’s what’s true then both him and his prep team failed horribly. Everyone knew that was going to be Trump strategy. That’s a very common conservative strategy. There’s even words for it I’ve seen multiple YouTube videos breaking this issue down. Just a constant stream of unending lies. It’s what they do. There’s no way to beat it directly. The only thing you can do is scoff at it and redirect to something else.
Oh yeah for sure. It’s why I think his later fire is due to him being pissed - I’d be pissed at myself too if I got thrown off by something I should have KNOWN was coming
My bet is that Trump’s stream of bullshit just threw Biden off completely,
So, you think during those Camp David prep sessions everyone was talking about pre debate…
Not a single person expected trump would show up and act exactly like he has in the last two elections?
And you think it’s fine to leave these people in charge of beating trump?
exactly.
Y’all nibbas need Jesus
The deflection that has caused every Democrat loss in recent history.
“Biden shit the bed. WhAt DiD tRuMp Do??!?!1/11!?”
he was coherent afterwards
He was reported coherent as soon as he was off camera.
He’s at his very best when it comes to small talk & happy talk with small crowds of people. Small lines, empty promises. Quick touch-and-go interactions. No opposition. In debates where he’s required to explain himself, answer lines of questioning (without teleprompter), not so much.
It’s also possible he got another shot of drugs post-debate to perk him up for the crowd of his own supporters.
RBG, Feinstein, now Biden. Selfish geriatric boomers should learn when to retire.
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You do realize he didn’t do well, right? This is having a huge influence on his electability. Especially because he has been hiding from cameras forever and things won’t get better for him
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Not voting is a no-brainer
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Looking at this objectively as an international, biden will lose and should step down
Go away Russian bot.
Hey, just thought you should know, Russian bots have successfully infiltrated and gained control over the New York Times
This is a hhill I’m willing to die on… Looking at his recent speeches what made you think “this guy’ll invigorate the nation”
Go huff your own farts russian bot
So having a very popular American opinion makes your a Russian bot now lol
Do you know that a bot is?
Put the pizzagate down, russian bot.
I’ll take that as a no. Blocked then.
most important thing is that he can still use his arm to sign legislation. that’s all you need him for. the actual deal is the cabinet. that’s what you’re voting for.
too bad most people don’t think about that, and fuck the dnc for putting the country in this situation.
This is a terrible sentiment. You need a team and you need someone to lead that team. Having the leader just be a puppet is terrible.
You’ll get a dysfunctional cabinet this way, you will get grifting, taking advantage of the puppet showing his face to bad ideas and you will get foreign influence prying on the weak puppet president.
And even if the president is not a puppet and “only weak”. We have a government falling apart and in deadlock because of our chancellor being a weak leader in Germany. The only thing holding them together at this point is the fear of them losing power sooner in an early election. All it does is give even further rise to the fascists.
You need a competent leader at the head of the cabinet. And that starts with her or him having their mental capacity.
oh you’re right. voting for biden may give rise to fascists… so we should let the actual fascists win instead. how have i never thought of this before‽
You let the Democrats gaslighting work on you. Since half a year they make us think, that the only two options are Trump and Biden, when in fact they could have allowed for proper primaries. They could have worked to prop up other candidates as viable alternatives. But they wanted the puppet they can control.
It is not too late to acknowledge Biden to be unfit and put up a different candidate. I have been advocating for this here since months. But instead of acknowledging that there is more real options, the DNC propaganda worked and works hard to limit our thinking to “its either one of them, no looking past the fishbowl”.
Biden was never voted because he was Biden. He was voted because he wasn’t Trump. Any halfway decent candidate that does not shares Bidens dogmatic support for genocide in Gaza and abusing immigrants can fill this role a hundred times better. Any such candidate could win the election in a landslide.
Pull the emergency brake on the Biden train. The Biden train is going into the abyss.
just tell us who you think people should vote for, instead of weaseling around it.
People should force the DNC to make primaries and have the people decide on a candidate.
they won’t, and that’s not an answer to my question
Then you vote third party and take the fight to the streets because you do not accept two genocidal mass murderers as legitimate options
Biden has been president for almost 4 years and we haven’t seen any of those things. That’s how I know all this FUD is overblown. The things you are describing were rampant under Trump, not Biden.
…primaries where you get vote among these candidates. There were options.
In my state there were literally not other options. We had a single candidate primary.
Almost as if the DNC is not democratic and making sure to get their puppet in, instead of a leader.
idk how that’s relevant now
Just like complaining who’s running the parties isn’t relevant now. That’s the point.
i gotta admit that my brain is too small to comprehend your point
Sounds like a you problem then.
yeah definitely a me problem
No. Just no, dude. 64% of Democrats thought he was too old to run, and the party didn’t even hold a primary. Then he walks out for his first debate and gives an incoherent performance that completely validates everyone’s fears about his age, and you want to play it off with a, “bUt HeR eMaiLs!” meme? Screw that. We shouldn’t be trying to convince people they didn’t see what they saw, we should be figuring out how to get him off the fucking ticket.
Why does nobody ever talk about how Trump is too old to run?
Because that doesn’t help Trump get elected.
The people who helped Trump are the ones who made sure the candidate was an unpopular geriatric, not the people who pointed out that was a bad idea.
Being an unpopular geriatric doesn’t seem to be hurting Trump with his voters. You’re doing the very thing I called out in my comment.
Yeah, the difference is the GOP held a primary, and his voters chose a geriatric. The DNC didn’t hold a primary, and ignored polling that showed their voters didn’t want a geriatric. And since you’ve already admitted you haven’t seen the debate, I don’t actually care about what you’ve, “called out,” in your comment, since you literally don’t know what everyone else here is talking about.
I’ve heard Trump speak. I’ve seen the shit he posts. I didn’t need to see yet another example of him acting like a cracked-out dementia patient to know that’s what he is. I have yet to hear a single criticism of Biden that doesn’t fit Trump to a T.
You’re welcome to bury your head in the sand if you want, but then you don’t get to talk down to the people who aren’t choosing willful ignorance. Either watch the debate to find out why people are questioning Biden’s fitness or stop talking.
Trump could be the youngest presidential candidate in history and he would still be essentially just as bad. Possibly even worse. If Biden didn’t have these excruciating moments where he seems super senior and gets incoherent he would be pretty good. Unless you happen to be a Palestinian obvs.
Anyway, people have higher standards for Biden and THEY SHOULD.
People would start talking about it if Biden stepped down and the Dems put up someone under 70. But since we’re comparing him to Joe those sort of critiques don’t hold as much weight.
Thanks for illustrating my point by spewing anti-Biden bullshit while giving Trump a free pass for bent a dottering old moron.
I tried convincing trump voters hes shit long ago, but every conservative community immediately bans me.
He is too old to run, but he was able to form coherent sentences last night, and Biden couldn’t. Biden lost that debate. HARD. I wish he hadn’t, but he did, and pretending that he didn’t isn’t helping anybody.
The problem is that people are judging who “won” the debate by how confident the candidate sounded rather than, you know, how batshit crazy their positions are (Trump) versus how relatively normal their positions are (Biden).
Winning a debate isn’t about who’s position you agree with, it’s about who can create a better argument for their position. I 100% support Biden’s position on abortion over Trump’s, but I have no idea what Biden was trying to say about the 3 times of Roe v. Wade, while Trump’s position (that it should be decided by state law) was completely clear. He also threw in a bunch of lies about how it was an unpopular Supreme Court decision (it was actually a pretty uncontroversial decision I’m 1973), but I understood what he was saying.
I still don’t how you could say Trump presented better arguments for anything. He lives and dies by the non-sequitur. He does, however, project 100% confidence in anything he says. He is a man of confidence. A confidence man.
This is not what I’m saying, this is by far the overwhelming consensus. If you think they did equally bad, fine, but the majority of people did not see it that way. This isn’t just leftists or MAGA shitting on Biden, here’s centrist Democrat Claire McCaskill on Rachel Maddow openly questioning whether or not Biden will be forced off the ticket after this performance.
That video says nothing about the actual content of the debate and who “won”. It’s just saying that Biden was low energy and occasionally incoherent, which I think everyone can agree on. And it’s dangerous because that’s what Republicans have been hammering on since before the last election.
I didn’t see the debate, but calling Trump coherent under any circumstances is very generous. He just spews word salad and bullshit with no regard to the topic he’s supposed to be addressing.
You should go ahead and watch the debate and then get back to us.
- They do, but it’s always coupled with a mention of Biden as part of a “both sides” argument
- Biden’s age is the most problematic thing about his candidacy. For Trump, it’s the least because it’s overshadowed by so. many. other. problems that are so much worse (being a treasonous fascist, for example).
Because it’s far down on the list of reasons he shouldn’t be president.
Fucking exactly, amen. Biden couldn’t make any sense. Trump should be in jail, and Biden needs to be replaced on the dem ticket asap.
Gaslighting the public in to maintaining the status quo for the rich and powerful…
E: and before the die hard liberals descend on me and accuse me of being a trump supporter because they can only see the world in blue or red - the alternative being worse doesn’t make your guy any good (nor did I mention the word “vote” - or don’t - once), it only proves that the system is rigged to never serve you. Now if only you were willing to confront this admittedly uncomfortable fact and move on from the fairy tale you’ve been sold, we might actually get some progress instead of treading water by “reducing harm” (all the while harm is not actually being reduced, we’re just being held hostage in exchange for it theoretically not getting worse)
It’s been obvious for a long time and the lies just kept going. Now, instead of eating shit, they’re changing the narrative. If you see through it, though, welcome to Moscow, comrade!
They did hold primaries. It just was not as showy as the republican one.
No they didn’t. There were no debates. Alternative candidates were kept off the ballot in multiple states. Florida and Delaware didn’t even hold votes. If this had happened in a foriegn country we’d be calling it autocracy.
FALSE. Biden was in trouble for a hot second. And trump was struggling against a young woman. You and the rest of these idiots complaining ONLY NOW WHEN IT’S TOO LATE about elected candidates just thought the trump trial was more entertaining at the time.
Everything I said is a fact, except for the last sentence, which is opinion. And if you think I just started complaining about Biden’s age and the lack of a Democratic primary, you’re welcome to go through my comment history and find out how spectacularly wrong you are.
Sure, let’s all pretend the problem was his voice. Ignoring all problems will do wonders in november.
No one is ignoring the problems…aside from the talking heads who are rambling on about this
As another said: vote for the Biden team, not Biden
Else you get trump and Jared kushner again
It’s getting pretty clear that if things keep going the way they’re going and the options are Team Biden and Team Rapist, Team Rapist is gonna win. That’s a problem. Memes like this ignore the problem.
Memes like this ignore the problem.
Well memes definitely are where I look for in-depth political analysis so you’ve got a great point here. /s
No one is ignoring the problems…
The volume of cope on this forum is obscene
To clarify for you:
I and many others clearly acknowledge the myriad issues with Biden.
As a human, his age and health are of serious concern.
As a candidate, many of his actions, such as the dogged support for Israel are massively reprehensible.
The point is that focusing on a voice or a stutter is not his platform (which, again, has massive issues).
Keeping trump out of the Whitehouse is all that matters, and if someone is gonna fixate on a geriatric person’s ability as an orator, and not their policy decisions, that’s junk.
The point is that focusing on a voice or a stutter is not his platform
His platform is bad. He’s a conservative Democrat who has governed in line with the Bush/Cheney era. From automotive subsidies/bailouts and protectionist tariffs to overpolicing and warmongering abroad and migrant criminalization to privatization of public utilities, he’s been very bad for the country as a whole.
That’s his platform. It’s not good.
Keeping trump out of the Whitehouse is all that matters
Keeping Trump out isn’t a policy. Hell, it isn’t even part of Biden’s platform. Biden had four years to prosecute Trump and failed to do so. He put more effort into prosecuting Assange than Trump, ffs.
The trump out of Whitehouse part is not policy. That’s my motivation.
I acknowledged I’m not pleased with bidens platform.
We should all be screaming at the top of our lungs for Biden to drop out now. Fast. Throw in Newsom or Whitmer. I’ll vote for either, doesn’t matter.
This is a no brainer, and no loss. Either they do it which would be great, or we’re stuck with biden anyway, who now looks to be much worse off against trump.
Everyone should be telling biden to drop out. Everyone everyone everyone. And loudly.
Full senile moment = “raspy voice”
Biden apologists are gonna be the reason Trump gets elected.
I have no faith in the future and only pray death is swift and merciful. I will vote Biden in hopes of delaying the inevitable another four years.
I was hoping that the Right’s march into fascism was going to be the call to action that Americans needed to abandon them and push the country into being a proper developed nation…
Instead, people go along with it to own the libs, and the privileged who know better have the resources to stamp their foot and wait for a savior they should know will never come.
