You must log in or register to comment.
Update: So I dug around a little deeper, and found that
- @dessalines@lemmy.ml is /u/parentis_shotgun on Reddit. Source: https://archive.is/Ky9vd
- /u/parentis_shotgun moderates some subreddits, including r/InformedTankie, r/asktankies, r/GunZedong. Source: https://www.reddit.com/user/parentis_shotgun
- /u/parentis_shotgun got banned from r/socialism for “refuting the ‘China is genociding Uyghurs’”. Source: https://archive.is/CwFZC
- /u/parentis_shotgun then launched lemmy. Source: https://archive.is/132fW
On another topic, there are rumors circulating that we are fascists or supported genocide. These claims are completely false, and like most viral twitter threads, are coming from a single Mastodon user on a personal vendetta who didn’t provide any sources. Such slander doesn’t deserve any response and is best left ignored.
- Previous discussion on the moderation policy on lemmy.ml including response from @dessalines@lemmy.ml : Expressing concerns about moderation policy on lemmy.ml
- Accusation of a Mastodon user (probably the one they are referring to): https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379
- Essays from @dessalines@lemmy.ml: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md
Update: More info about @dessalines@lemmy.ml
I don’t agree with these views at all, but I don’t agree with the view that no one should use lemmy because of the opinions of the developers. Its an open-source project, just don’t use anything hosted by them. Like I don’t support the US military, but that doesn’t stop me from using the internet.
Removed by mod
Yeah, developers of new instances should probably edit that out.
I don’t think its a huge issue though, looking at that page the number of people who have donated more than $10 is like… a dozen.
A bunch of developers isn’t going to do anything though if they retain control over everything. I think after learning about this background, and their weird claims surrounding it yesterday, the path forward I would prefer is for a strong fork to emerge of the original code that instances deploy instead.
Removed by mod
Forking the project would beyond stupid, and to so blithely suggest it leads me to believe to you don’t actually know much about that which you are discussing.
This is just it. Software is software. You can spin your own instance and moderate it as you wish. It’s open source, so you can change and modify it.
But right now they’re asking for donations to run their instance and help with their code.So before you donate money and your time/expertise/code - it’s probably a good idea to know who is asking for it. It’s not entirely clear, to be honest.
Exactly. I probably don’t agree on everything with 100% of developers of the tool out there. I don’t want creators of technological tools (or anyone for that matter) to be subject to purity of ideology and opinion tests. I didn’t want Brendan Eich gone from Mozilla nor anyone else gone from the tools they develop.
Neither of those show the claimed genocide denial/support.
I was wrong, yes there is:
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md#whats-going-on-with-the-uyghursRemoved by mod
Most far-right fascists also make up excuses for the genocides they support - the Nazis said that Jewish people were responsible for the collapse of the Weimar economy (and a lot of other bullshit) for example.
Removed by mod
what they hate is there being cultural aspects not under their control
china claims they were interning uighurs to prevent extremist terrorism and separatism, not control culture. xinjiang shares a border with afghanistan. the claim is that uighurs were going off to fight in syria and other regions, then coming back to start shit at home. china claims the mass detainment of uighurs was to provide language and vocational training to counter the sway of jihadists returning from the middle east.
Removed by mod
By what definition of fascism are tankies the same?
I’ve seen the term tankie more here in my last week in the fediverse than at any other time in my life so forgive me if I don’t fully understand. From what I’ve gathered, it’s extreme auth-left. Though being authoritarian does not automatically mean fascist.
Removed by mod
Idk how to save comments so replying
Removed by mod
…bookmark it in your browser?
Oh boy! That entire page is definitely something. As someone born in a comunist country I can only pitty people like that. They must have had some pretty sheltered lives in order to be this detached from reality. As others have said it is impressive what they’ve done with the platform and deserve prays for it, but man those views are going to push a lot of users away, especially when they are so public.
Which country if you don’t mind me asking?
The one that had a pretty bad revolution to get rid of communism 😉. The problem with communism is that, since they achieve power through illegal means, they also refuse to leave when the people, who they are supposed to represent, don’t want them anymore.
To be fair, I think most governments would refuse to leave if the people they represent don’t want them anymore.
Yes, we only have to look at the United States in recent history for that example…
So they’re pro-CCP, Uyghur genocide deniers?
Not sure what I make of that. He quoted a guy, rather than giving his own opinion. We can make a lot of assumptions about why he quoted the guy, but without stating an opinion it can only ever be speculation. In a massive list of essays, which I admittedly haven’t read all of, one quote seems to be the big uproar about fascists running Lemmy?
And then being like “Hey maybe don’t delete posts just because they’re about China? That doesn’t break any rules,” suddenly makes them in love with the CCP? I don’t have any context to judge the quote and posts regarding China literally do not break any rule. “Orientalism” is a ridiculous reason to delete a post.
This all seems completely blown out of proportion like typical Twitter drama.
Removed by mod
This. I’d really love it if someone could go through these links one by one and provide a detailed summary and rebuttal. I just want to know both sides of the issue. I totally believe in US propaganda, but highly doubt this is purely that.
Removed by mod
I mean my stance is anarchism or left libertarianism, and I agree with most of what you said. But I also am just totally unfamiliar with these regimes. The only thing I’ve ever been taught is “bad”. I don’t really trust what I have been taught to be honest. I feel like there is a lot more nuance than the American POV. Also I’ve traveled enough to know that propoganda is EVERYWHERE. Every country propagandizes every other country. So it’s just hard to know what’s true about geopolitics tbh.
I think China and the USA are both terrible regimes, but in such a way that it’s generally fine to live there, which is a weird modern phenomenon. I bet Russia and Cuba aren’t what the US teaches. I suspect NK is a repressive hellscape IRL same as on TV lol.
Removed by mod
I mean it would be kinda rich, the US criticising another country for being imperialist…
It may be hypocritical, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
the russian soul
I hope you’ve lived in Russia all your life, because it seems pretty gauche to make sweeping statements about the essential character of an entire population you are not a member of
The Revolutions podcast had a good series on the Russian revolution if that’s a format you’re into. It includes the birth of Tankies as a name and phenomenon.
That’s perfect, thanks!
Look I’m decidedly on the fence because of what I perceive as my own ignorance on these topics, but I’m sorry, if the reaction to the lead dev’s link bomb like this is to just dismiss it without rebuttal and take the Western media’s word at face value, then I have to at least entertain the notion that they might not be wrong here.
Manufacturing Consent ingrained a deep skepticism of mainstream media in me that has only served me well for over a decade. It’s not a dismissal of mainstream sources, mind you, but an understanding of their biases and a healthy skepticism and unwillingness to tow the line without my own independent research or the backing of a source I fully trust.
Unfortunately, I find that my anarchist comrades often hold strong opinions on these issues when they have not done any of this research themselves or have only done surface level research at the same level of an average liberal. This again leaves me on the fence until I feel comfortable having an opinion.
In the meantime, the lead devs may have their own ideological views, but they have really not been pushing anything heavily on this platform and have been accommodating. I don’t think the FUD spread over their beliefs helps any of us, and while they may be ML instead of anarchist or liberal, this culture also helps ensure that anti-racism, anti-transphobia, anti-capitalism, and more are cultural staples of the platform and acts as a deterrence to trolls and real, outright fascists from viewing this platform as a place to call home.
A Reddit clone with a leftist, not liberal, culture is one I fully embrace, personally.
Removed by mod
sane leftists generally simply discount tankie talking points out of hand
how is this sane? tankies might well be wrong, but I don’t see how they’re obviously wrong. the west does lie about its enemies. a million iraqis died on a lie in our lifetimes.
Removed by mod
as a sane person, I actually did look into it, and found that structural steel does weaken significantly at the temperature jet fuel burns at.
There’s also these:
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
https://raddle.me/f/TankiesGonnaTank/89852/the-lemmy-ml-admin-is-banning-anyone-that-mentions-stalin-or
(google cache since the site is down) https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KNky1TdNscwJ:https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se&client=firefox-b-dAnd I believe there’s some allegations of them hosting the lemmygrad.ml instance, which is basically full on tankie home.
Basically, they don’t think Uyghur genocide happened, they don’t think Stalin did anything wrong and they love Xi.
And now they’re asking for your money
aa
His response to that issue is really solid.
aa
People have a tendency to call anti-trans hate “politics” even when they would never call racism and sexism that. But it’s just hate speech.
Giving hate speech free rein does not help anybody, and I’d argue it especially doesn’t lead to more actual free speech, because that just leads to the most hateful people taking over a platform while most people, not willing to put up with that, just leave. And voila, you get shit like Voat. It doesn’t solve everybody’s differences when hate speech is allowed to thrive, it just boosts the hate speech over and above everything else, and creates a hateful echo chamber. This has happened so many times now.
Even choosing to do nothing and not ban the instance would have been a choice based on ideology/politics/whatever you want to call it, imo. “Software should allow any and all speech, including hate speech” is not a neutral or apolitical stance either.
For all I know, he could be trans, or have trans friends or family, and in the current world state, where trans people are being subjected to escalating real world suffering … If it were me, I wouldn’t just step aside and allow my personal project to be used to hurt me or my loved ones, either. I’d be upset if a friend created software, allowed it to become a powerful tool for people who’d wish me dead, and then just handwaved all responsibility and refused to do even attempt to do anything because any attempt at moderation would count as “politics” while creating the software in the first place and freely allowing it to be used for hate… Wouldn’t be, somehow?
Sure, I think the tankie and extremely pro-CCP/Kremlin views expressed by the developers and lemmygrad server members are outright dumb. But I do appreciate that they leave room for all of us of differing views to exist without constantly clashing, by creating this federated system.
You know you’ve done well when you’ve made something that’s bigger than yourself and your own interests.
Is there any actual proof of this? I have seen it repeated over and over and over, but I have yet to see literally anyone provide receipts.
Edit: There was some more info posted in another comment: https://beehaw.org/comment/318333
Sorry if I didn’t provide sufficient proof, depends on which aspect you would have liked me to clarify on?
tankie views: essays on github by the main developers I’m not trying to argue right or wrong in this comment, just to show these are texts representing the beliefs held by the lead developer.
Tankie moderation: Orientalism stipulated as reason for comment rule and ban on a Ukraine-related thread
Creating something bigger than themselves: From open sourcing lemmy, and structuring lemmy in a way that gives liberty for instance owners to rule as they please.
Thanks for the reply and info. So basically he’s a communist of some stripe or another. I am hard left (USA hard left so left of center for those of you who live in normal countries) so my views do not align with his.
I can’t figure out how this relates to software development though. Who gives a shit if he’s a communist or if he bleaches and waxes his asshole every Thursday? Literally to the point of people suggesting forking lemmy (these people clearly have absolutely no idea how software development works to be suggesting something so stupid).
For all the issues with the lemmy developers (and they’re completely valid, though I’m not as familiar with the ins and outs of the discourse given how new I am to the fediverse) I appreciate their candor. I guess part of it is just that I’m used to corporate speak when receiving website updates and what not, but as long as they’re receptive to changes that the platform needs and continue to make the platform more stable, safer, and more feature-rich, it’s nice having a home on the fediverse run by genuine people, even if they’re people I’m not the most aligned with ideally – to be charitable
It’s so refreshing having a statement written by two people, instead of a board of lawyers.
On another topic, there are rumors circulating that we are fascists or supported genocide. These claims are completely false, and like most viral twitter threads, are coming from a single Mastodon user on a personal vendetta who didn’t provide any sources. Such slander doesn’t deserve any response and is best left ignored.
My “Not involved in genocide denial” T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt
To Dessalines it’s not genocide because they had it coming, so it’s all internally consistent
This update, specifically how funding is happening, helped me understand some of the reasoning behind the narrow focus of the Lemmy developers. I appreciate them foregoing their regular paychecks to work on stability. Hopefully things settle down soon to the point that the extra eyes and hands on the project are more helpful than they are distracting.
It seems to have become a habit that most good things about the internet is linked to the EU. I’m really grateful. That being said, I hope that Lemmy can become a collaborative project uniting a lot of devs rather than rely on two people.
About the scandal; as long as their opinions do not influence the platform I don’t see them as relevant to Lemmy. If they are illegal, let justice do its work.
While I agree with the first part, I think the last sentence is a really really bad take. What is and isn’t illegal depends very much on governments and is usually pretty arbitrary. And especially leftists get persecuted overly harshly in many countries of the global north. So even though I don’t agree with the views of the two Lemmy devs, I don’t wish “justice” on anyone.
Yes, good point. It’s more like: we as a society must decide what is and isn’t acceptable as far as free speech goes and enshrine this in law. Then it is a matter of applying the laws rather than judging case by case as individuals.
In this case, The political discourse of the devs doesn’t seem directly related to Lemmy’s development. Of course, libre software is very much in line with leftist ideology; what I mean is that they do not seem to impose their views or skew ours through their work as devs. They don’t even use their position as devs to publicize their discourse; people had to dig to find them.
If their political discourse is harmful, I’d argue that it is not to us, as individuals, to condemn them and to choose an adequate punishment, e.g. boycott the seemingly unrelated Lemmy project.
Of course, it is obviously to us, as individuals, to decide if we want to participate on Lemmy, or even donate to the devs for their work on Lemmy. I choose to do both even when I don’t agree with the devs and when I think their discourse about human right in the CCP and Russia might be harmful.
I’m really enjoying Lemmy to be honest. A decentralized platform rekindles the feeling of internet forums and the excitement of finding something new in each community. Seeing such a candid report from the developers is nice as well and reaffirms my decision to stay, regardless of reddit’s decisions or direction as a platform.
Keep up the great work everyone involved!
Agreed, it feels a lot more intimate and the growing pains are honestly not that bad
This posted twice. You might want to delete one.
Thanks for the link. I don’t know the story, but I find it interesting that these two devs are essentially being sponsored to develop Lemmy. What sort of incentive does the sponsor have for funding this development?
This project was funded through the NGI0 Discovery Fund, a fund established by NLnet with financial support from the European Commission’s Next Generation Internet programme, under the aegis of DG Communications Networks, Content and Technology under grant agreement No 825322.
Source: https://nlnet.nl/project/Lemmy/
“This project was funded through the NGI0 Discovery Fund, a fund established by NLnet with financial support from the European Commission’s Next Generation Internet programme, under the aegis of DG Communications Networks, Content and Technology under grant agreement No 825322.”
I hope after a year i will forget what reddit was.
You’ll forget what what was?
Same tbh
I do appreciate the transparency from the Lemmy devs and re their views (whether only alleged or actual) on controversial topics, I think the issue is not in the software itself and in how the devs themselves are using it. However given the nature of the fediverse and how Lemmy is programmed, you can use the software however you like, as we do here on Beehaw.
Similarly, we can look to the “death of the author” debate to settle this. I’m not going to discuss what that is and what it isn’t here (as that isn’t the purpose of this post or this comment), however, I will state that my definition of “death of the author” involves critically enjoying a piece of media despite its author’s bad views if and only if those views aren’t inherent to the work and they aren’t profiting off of my consumption of the work itself. Beehaw is like that. Sure the creators of the software are involved in a controversy, but the way the devs use their own software is not an inherent feature of the software. Beehaw has a fantastic setup and ethos, so I find my home here. Sure, there’s not that many specific communities, but that’s what federation is for.
Another analogy, however accurate (no analogy is perfect): people lobby governments with money to get them to pass problematic legislation, but people still participate in the economy.
note on that analogy because I feel it needs saying
Yes, I know that participating in the economy, especially in the United States where I live but really anywhere is a bit necessary to, well, exist most places if not everywhere, but people unknowingly support controversial people all the time. See Nestle and their controversies. Even bringing that up reminds me of the illusion of choice and how everything is owned by five companies (and even then mostly everything is owned by like two VC groups). I’m digressing, of course, but I hope you see my point in bringing this up.
TL;DR: The way the devs use the software should not impede our use of the software given that the devs’ views are not inherent to any use case of the software.
I agree with the first part. I completely fail to see how the analogy at the end applies. Capitalists and their corporations lobby the government to pass legislation that directly fucks the economy to make it worse for working-class people who use it (and, in fact, depend on it for their basic survival). So it’s much, much more like Reddit where people have to use the one corporate system that exploits and oppresses them than like someone developing a piece of FOSS software that other people can use independently. In fact, if you try to build a separate economy, the state’s violent enforcers (police and/or military, depending on the context) will come in and abuse and murder you and tear apart your independent economy and force people back into the fold.
My point with including thr analogy about the economy was to say, in essence, “people do bad things with money all the time yet we still use it,” although, again, I will bring up how this isn’t a good analogy because of our reliance on capital to obtain things like healthcare, food, and housing.
Wonderfully put, couldn’t have said it better myself.
Thanks for sharing! Great project. Think I’ll head over and donate 😊
Wow they went from 1 user to 27. It feels like way more than 27 people
(I’m aware of what they meant, but it’s incorrect in English)
Yes, every single English speaking country uses a period for decimals. And English Wikipedia requires it in their style guide.
Germany uses a comma, and you can check this by setting your phone to en_DE.
And they speak German. I’ll trust the English countries on how to format numbers in English.
