I’m fairly new and don’t 100% understand it yet, but instances are run on servers that require money. Are we heading towards seeing ads or subscriptions to raise funds instead of relying on donations to cover overhead?
Especially with the influx of new users. Hardware upgrades are needed.
The fediverse is not a single database or server. It’s a protocol and standard that’s distributed by design. The fediverse as a whole cannot be centrally monetized, just like email can’t be monetized. A single provider could potentially choose to try to monetize either by requiring a subscription or showing ads, exactly like email providers do, but if you ever feel like they’ve stopped providing a good service you can just switch to another instance just like you can switch to another email provider.
Unlike a centralized service like Reddit, you’re not locked into a monopoly. Switching instances does not lock you out of the system as a whole, just like you can still receive email if you switch to another provider. With Reddit you can only access the platform through Reddit because it’s a closed source centralized monopoly.
One thing the fediverse seems to lack as far as I can tell is a way to link accounts, like how you can set up forwarding with email, which helps you switch providers. But the protocol and standard is still being developed so maybe that’s something that can happen in the future
A point of caution:
A large company absolutely could come in and absorb the majority of lemmy traffic and build proprietary code and features on top of the main protocol, eventually making the open source protocol obsolete and supplanting it as a paid/closed-source service. It has been done repeatedly by tech companies, and it is the main reason many people distrust Meta’s interest in joining the fediverse.
For all the reasons you just mentioned, we should fight tooth and nail against that from happening, but we should at least be aware of the threat.
I think the email comparison is apt. We are currently in the bbs/dial-up ISP stage of the fediverse. When people had aol.com or netcom.com addresses.
That gave way to powerful centralized services such as Hotmail or rocketmail, that had the promise of never changing your email again. We then saw Gmail become the big boy on the block with amazing technology.
Even with these powerful entities, there were still hobbyists and corporate email.
I predict the fediverse will follow a similar path. lemmy.world and beehaw are like the netcoms, or even the bbs’s, basically hobbyists, and Internet communists setting things up for the common good, or simply because it’s fun.
We’re going to see instances fill up, become unstable, unreliable, etc. People will get frustrated when Lemm.ee, or their preferred instance can no longer support the volume they have attracted. We’ll see a professional service like a Hotmail that promises a forever home. You’ll likely also see vanity instances like what rocketmail offered. Given the nature of the interest based servers, we’ll likely see vanity instances come about singer than they did with email: starwars.fedi, lotr.verse, piano.lemmy, etc.
Once corporate interests start to see value in a powerful, stable instance that can collect user data and serve targeted ads (starwars.fedi is easy to target), they will dump enough money to push out the hobbyists. The hobbyists will not go away, but they won’t be needed anymore.
That’s when you’ll see the disruptor. Someone who comes into the space like Google did, and the fediverse will be an open protocol that is dominated by a few massive interests.
All in all, I’m not predicting doom, just the natural course of events, which actually will be great for the fediverse. Just like I love my gmail.com account more than my hotcity.com account, I think the future of the fediverse is bright, even if corporate interests get heavily involved, and dominate the 'verse, because there will always be room for innovations, and hobbyists, and while a single company could dominate, the protocol is still open for anyone to do their own thing, and not be bound to a single company if they don’t want to be.
I think this is spot on. It’s completely foreseeable that a well funded enterprise could stand up an instance that’s super robust and can handle a lot more traffic than current ones. They could, say, attract celebrities to do AMAs and handle the load. Or maybe they could create some communities that they stock with a giant amount of useful content.
They’d do it for free, and it would just be another instance, but it would become invaluable, with more and more communities hosted there, and more and more users making it their home instance, until the owners felt they were valuable enough that they put their content behind a paywall or they start serving ads. Sure, people could just move to other instances, but the point would be that suddenly doing without them would be painful.
But unlike Reddit or Twitter, it’s not as much as all or nothing situation, and other instances can compete in the same realm.
Sounds like Microsoft’s embrace, extend, and extinguish
I haven’t read a ton about it, but isn’t this what Meta is potentially going to do with Thread?
That is the worry, yes. There’s very little incentive for them to join the fediverse as a for-profit company otherwise.
I think there are benefit of killing twitter, mocking el*n and skirting europe regulation on moderation laws. But the worry is there, I hope the devs stand their ground and rejecting any doubious modification from meta on fediverse protocols.
Please don’t start obfuscating words. Elon.
standing our ground means defederating any and all meta servers as soon as they’re identified
I’d be surprised if there’s more than one Meta instance, as “multiple instances” tends to make the UX more confusing for those who are unaware of it. So it shouldn’t be hard.
they’d abstract that away for their users, they won’t know or care. And if one instance gets blocked, they’ll just spin up a new one and migrate the data. Meta users won’t have to think about the whole fediverse aspect of it because it they had to, it would never get off the ground. So meta has to abstract it away or it’ll be DOA. Which means we have to keep blocking any and all meta instances when they’re identified as such
Yes but you need to sign their NDA to be sure.
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Zuck did an interview talking about how they were looking at doing a spinoff of Instagram, using Fediverse, for text based social media. Basically a competitor to Twitter. Rumor mill says it’s call Thread, or maybe he said that in the interview, I can’t remember.
I deleted the wrong comment, but responding here. I was thinking Thread like the home automation standard all the big companies are doing together. Figured Facebook was in on that. I did hear about the Fediverse entry though, just missed the name (which I bet they won’t use).
What’s the background on this?
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Yeah that’s a great point. I think it would be hard to fully lock other clients out, but you could have an early internet style situation where you had some websites not supporting all browsers.
Incidentally, Google is kinda doing this with email.
If you run your own email server for your business, they will rate limit you under the guise of spam protection, even if your emails are never caught in their spam filters. Some business reported up to 12 hour delays on their emails being delievered. They want everyone to use preferably their own service, or at least another major giant’s, so they can push the smaller players out of the market.
TIHI
No ads, no tracking, just donations. The model proved itself when twitter went to shit and a big influx of users came to mastodon, it all worked out.
You’re just not noticing that the ads are ads.
If you have real evidence of this then you have a duty to share it.
Astroturfing is just a reality we have to live with online.
I’ve been on Mastodon for months and haven’t noticed any ads. Just people letting me know about some product they like. Wait…
Nonsense. This place is refreshing, like the bold taste of New Coke.
Cuke?!
I love Cuke!
It’s heaven in a can!
[ smiles with brown teeth ]
I just got thirsty all of a sudden.
Nonsense, “No, Stupid Questions!” is actually sponsored by “Barbie”, only in theaters July 21st.
That’s been always the case on other platforms on top of the official ads. Damn every now and then you’d see what’s clearly an guerilla ad campaign hitting the front page of reddit.
Oh shit was I the ad the whole time??
Maybe we are all ads on this disgraced day
Speak for yourself
The real ads were the friends we made along the way.
Course not, if you were, i’d be able to tell, since i’m using the new Rayban® Aviators© Digital edition, now with poser ID embeded and polarized lenses with Spez protection.
I would have paid for spez protection. But it wasn’t available so I came to Lemmy lol
We call that a condom, but it’s too late for spez.
Dude! They looked so sick when I saw them in your profile pic while eating my Magic Spoon
laughably expensivesuper duper healthy cereal!
Reddit got WAY worse in the last 5-7 years though. I think corporations got more ok with it after best practices were both cemented and more publicized after the 2016 presidential election. Previously astroturfing was there for political campaigns and state actors, but more shady. Then Russia went off the rails with agitprop, Cambridge Analytical was all in the news, and everyone realized how pervasive and easy it was. Now everyone does it, and often.
There are no ads, just as there are no added flavours in McDoubleBeef 100% flavour and 200% beef!!!
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I wonder if the mod who deleted my comment is in denial, or trying to cover their ass.
You mean promotion. Not all promotion is bad. When a game developper posts a content update about their game, that’s promotion. And I think most subscribers of that community will be pretty happy to see that kind of promotion. It’s opt in.
No, I mean ads. “Hey Kbinlets, what’s your favorite fast food? I just love how crispy KFC is!”
Many mastodon instances shut down. There’s always a risk that at some point the donations are not enough to sustain an instance. It could be very problematic if mods lose their communities when an instance shutdown.
Perhaps what we need is a backup code or some kind of exportable file with all our data (subbed communities, interactions, yadda yadda) which we can port over to a new instance if necessary.
Yeah, especially with Lemmy which is a lot more permanent than Mastodon is. You can screenshot your old toots but you can’t screenshot a userbase. There should be a way to migrate a community to another instance while keeping the subscriptions.
Mastodon does this (you can download a full backup of your entire account - although not sure about media) every 7 days, which can be imported into various other Fediverse platform accounts, depending on what they allow.
I suspect that all Fediverse platforms worth their salt will make this a core feature.
Hopefully it ends up like wikipedia
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Wikipedia is probably the most important thing on the internet fight now. It also needs some amount of servers, many crawlers scan it daily, I assume its a shitton of users and logins and API hits and what not. And still it survives on donations alone.
Eventually lemmy is not a streaming services with videos and and a lot of bandwidth. Its just text and people connecting. So I assume you dont need massive servers and shit.
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Besides all the discussion of nonprofits and donations, fedi server hosts have way less overhead. They’re not generally trying to profit, so they only need to break even (or run a deficit small enough to deal with out of pocket). A corporation is trying to give 6 or 7 digit salaries to CEOs and/or shareholders. So they need to extract more than the cost of hosting.
Municipal👏 Social👏 Media👏
The fediverse is the coolest thing that could happened, freedom is what all people should seek for, creating their own spaces and not supporting corporations that only want to make money out of people’s lives, data, attention, mental health, etc …
It’s better to support the instance you are in with donations for sure.
As long as we don’t allow capitalist corporate greed to ruin the Fediverse like it has ruined (and will continue to ruin) practically everything.
Capitalism is relatively good, gives performance & frugality incentives. Unrestrained late-stage capitalism… not so much. Think of it like oxygen. At 21% you’re great (and need it to live), at 90%+ you spontaneously combust.
Did you know that you can move to North Korea and enjoy life without capitalism and greed?
Did you know you’re commenting on a site that was created specifically because people don’t like capitalism and greed?
How’s that relevant?
Context. Did you forget what you wrote?
And just to add to my previous reply - creation of Lemmy IS an act of capitalism! The author of Lemmy decided he didn’t like Reddit. So he made the most capitalist decision in their life - to create a competition. Lemmy is an actual flagship of capitalism and free market: when even people who dislike capitalism turn to capitalist tools to improve their lives.
I’m sorry, but Lemmy would not exist without capitalism. And you won’t be typing angry comments on your phone in the loo without it. You would, most likely, work in some mines right now and a slice of bread for lunch would be your best achievement in life.
Wow, news flash, you must participate in capitalism while living in a capitalist society. Though I fail to see how creating a free open-source distributed alternative could be construed as a “capitalist” move. Maybe look into the lemmy developers and their personal politics before assigning motivations to their actions.
Their motivations are irrelevant. They have exercised their rights and freedoms which are a part of capitalism and liberalism.
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This is a dumb comment
Why did you leave it then?
This basically
“I don’t actually like pizza”
“Yeah well you could just eat horseshit instead”
people who argue about politics always seem to unyieldly defend extremist views
hasn’t human cooperation always been about making compromises, finding a balance, and understanding each other? smh…
Realistically every instance can monetize in whatever way they see fit but I highly doubt this’ll be a thing. Mastodon is way bigger and more expensive than Lemmy and it runs just fine through donations. No reason why the same won’t work here.
Lemmy itself is also likely to follow in Mastodon’s path by getting money from sponsorships and fundraisers. See https://www.investopedia.com/how-mastodon-makes-money-7482865
Good to know!
Sponsors want something in return though, surely?
For many people, myself included, paying $10 a month for some VC schmuck to buy another pina coloda while he’s resting on the beach smoking a Cuban cigar laughing about how much money he made from exploitation is a no-way. On the contrary, paying $10 once every few months to cover hosting costs for a service we all enjoy using and is not misusing our funds is something a lot are happy to do.
When I purchase something or subscribe to a service (the only subscription services I have are servers I rent sooo…) I think twice about whether I wanna spend this money because I can find a loophole around it, donating to keep my instance alive is something I’m ready to do.
And that’s really the only sustainable way things like this can exist. The Internet has been having it’s free lunch for so long we’ve forgotten how to buy our own.
I’d say it’s more that we’ve been paying out the nose in the form of offering up our data and digital autonomy, and by allowing not only the Internet but our societies at large to degrade and polarize. We’ve paid dearly for our ‘free’ services, in the case of the US with everything from our reproductive rights to our connections with our own families and communities.
I’d much rather pay the price of an extra latte now and then for real internet communities than deal with actual Nazis and orbital Teslas for some shitty undermoderated ad feeds infested with trolls, AI, and literal societal saboteurs on the payrolls of Putin and Winnie the Pooh.
Just a shoutout on the main website or github. Not much else, they tip in to support the project.
This might work for now, but I’m skeptical how well this would work in the long run. Do those company pay a monthly fee to be there? What happens when there’s a hundred companies on that list? What happens if a company pays a substantial amount to be there and threatens to stop paying if xyz doesn’t happen?
- Just like there’s Lemmy and Kbin that powers the “threadiverse” / reddit-like portion of the fediverse, Mastodon is only one software that enables micro-blogging like experiences. There’s Pleroma, Misskey and many more. And of course there’s always the possibility for more to be developed over time.
- Of Mastodon there’s likely hundreds of so-called “forks” out there. Since it is open source, people can take that source code, and host their own version of the project. This means they can make their own changes, include changes by others, remove features they don’t like, and so on.
- Mastodon is not just run by a handful of people owned by a corporation, forced to work for them. Large parts of the project are contributed by volunteers, which can jump ship to another implementation as soon as they feel like the one they’ve contributed to is not acting in the interest of users.
- Admins which actually host Mastodon instances get to decide when to update to a newer version, or whether they want to use a fork that includes the features they like (which the “official” Mastodon project has not (yet) included) or anti-features that might’ve been put there due to pressure from outside (possible but less likely).
The power here is in the hands of users and admins. We just have to be careful not to let a company like Google or Facebook/Meta take control over a substantial portion of the fediverse. See also: How to Kill a Decentralised Network (such as the Fediverse)
I do agree with most of your points, except for one.
Mastodon is not just run by a handful of people owned by a corporation, forced to work for them.
Yes, for now. What happens when it requires so much administration and development that someone needs to manage it? Eventually, it will get big enough that its required to be a company. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Yes and Mastodon itself is a registered non-profit organization. There’s a few people they’re able to pay to work on the projects, thanks to sponsors and donations. But there’s a lot more contributors (over 800). I think the people doing valuable work on FOSS projects have a lot of opportunity to work elsewhere if they feel like they’re being made to do things antithetical to their values. Not to mention the amount of noise they could make to expose the project and its shady goals, if that were the case. Things do work differently for FOSS projects than your average for-profit investor-driven project.
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I’m just aware how many projects have come in promising to be the underdog who does things differently only to end up running into the exact same challenges and making the exact same decisions as all the others
I may be a minority. But I would gladly join a server that is paid and I get stability, but also a better stronger fight against the inevitable onslaught of shit - in return.
It’s definitely possible to see scammy for-profit strategies pop up.
A more likely outcome is Big Tech coming in and fragmenting and dissolving ActivityPub servers like all the Lemmy servers. It will most likely be Big Tech incorporating the big tech websites/servers (Meta, Twitter, etc) into ActivityPub and then creating a closed Big Tech ActivityPub-like system where the artifically popular servers/instances (Meta, Twitter, etc.) migrate from FOSS ActivityPub to a closed for-profit system and essentially close off FOSS Lemmy. And most people wont understand FOSS ActivityPub vs Big Tech ActivityPub-like system thereby rendering OG Lemmy useless.
I prefer the idea of have separation; one whole server(s) for bots, one for for‐profit big tech, etc. Big Tech can play but won’t interfere with the heart of the AcivityPub.
But who tf am I?
It’s definitely possible to see scammy for-profit strategies pop up.
There’s not inherently bad about there being a profit motive. Servers are expensive, developers are expensive. There are costs to be paid, and if I am going to do something full time I’m going to have to pay my bills, too.
That said, there’s definitely a line where it’s taken too far and it loses what originally made it great cough cough.
I think otherwise, only because being profit driven always ends up hurting the consumer. Whether it be squeezing out every penny from us and them not caring about leaving us destitute, to actively obliterating the environment, to stealing our data because “hey, you have nothing to hide right? Also, we’ll only use it for marketing ;) . Don’t ask why it’s so expensive to sell.”
It’s up to you as a consumer to make those choices.
But would you do your job if it didn’t pay you and you couldn’t pay your rent? If I decided to really put effort into running an instance, developing a nice frontend, paying for the servers, should I not be able to pay my rent?
What amount of money is acceptable for me to have to spend, since it’s immoral for me to try to get any of it back?
A more likely outcome is Big Tech coming in and fragmenting and dissolving ActivityPub servers like all the Lemmy servers.
How? If, say, Facebook built a Lemmy-compatible instance, the worst they could do is eventually defederate it from other Lemmy instances, in which case we’re right back where we started.
Don’t know exactly, but it’s what happened with Google and XMPP.
Same thing can happen here.
But I’m imagining that Big Tech starts to post from their own server with content that is interesting to the the masses, rather than us nerd, then they market to all the other servers to get a bunch of sign ups (maybe with exclusive content or features, idk), then federate with their own other websites and servers using their own proprietary ActivityPub, then bam OG ActivityPub never takes off, withers and become even fewer nerds like me, and and a bunch of bots with little content.
what is activitypub?
this is why all these concepts fediverse, kbin, lemmy, activitypub etc etc needs to be publicly disclosed in an internationally accessible wiki so that no single entity can ever take control. the fact there is no public and clear disclosure means people out there are CONTROLLING these technologies and have BAD INTENTIONS. Disclose them NOW.
Hey, I responded to some of your questions earlier. I don’t know if you saw my most recent response to clarify a few more things.
I have to say, seeing you on this thread being somewhat militant has me thinking you might be concern trolling? I’m trying to help you out, but you’re jumping straight to conclusions like Kbin is going to cause WW3.
For anyone curious, this is the previous thread in question: https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/120407/Welp-I-just-deleted-my-12-year-old-240k-karma#entry-comment-471743
Obviously a troll
there is nothing about being a troll if legitimate concerns are being raised. these concerns need to be raised now. it’s good helldiver pointed some replies, but im guessing they will not be complete enough. people need to stop thinking the current state of information disclosure is enough. it isn’t enough. look at the way crypto is disclosed. 50% of users have no clue wtf is going on. info needs to be disclosed in clear and concise and non-technobabble ways. github is horrible. it’s full of geekspeak. we need to do better if we are to save humanity. we cannot wait till 500 years to solve hyperspace. we need to solve it now. that is why this is not being a troll. because we need to push ourselves. harder, faster, better than ever! look at fusion power. should have been solved 10 0 years ago. wtf is humanity doing? just scamming and cheating their way around. geezus. no wonder alien civs are not interested in talking to us. get real.
it’s good helldiver pointed some replies, but im guessing they will not be complete enough.
Wait, are you saying that you didn’t even read what I said? And you’re assuming that what I wrote is just shit? Without even reading it? I gave you a pretty thorough response. Probably took me a solid ~15 minutes to type out and research and provide hyperlinks.
Troll probably isn’t the right word to describe you. But it seems you’ve already made up your mind, and you want the Fediverse to be nefarious. Without listening to any actual discourse.
I would say that I feel you’ve wasted my time, but this has been pretty entertaining watching you come up with these crazy responses. Plus, I’ve learned a bit more about this platform, researching your questions. I’m going to go ahead and block you now.
People gave you the basics and nobody stopping you from DYOD
You are not asking questions. This post is a stream of rhetorical questions that can be easily addressed with a search engine. With that being said, specifically, what are you asking?
Take a quick look through the last ~24 hours of my profile. I’ve put a fair amount of effort into answering their questions. While it’s been entertaining for me, don’t waste any more time with this person. They are not listening.
Slow down man. Activity Pub is just the system that lets Mastodon, Kbin, Lemmy, etc.communicate with each other. Pretty sure it’s open source and not some evil scary monopolistic thing like Chromium that every uses begrudgingly. Not everyone on the internet is a bad actor, even Kbin itself is developed by one guy in an apartment working 24/7 to try to keep everything afloat.
Recommend researching what the Fediverse is. The whole concept is that there’s no single entity controlling the service. Literally impossible-ish.
much thanks!
I believe all the information is publicly available. The problem though, is as you say: it’s not easily accessible to us laymen. It’s all in very specific technological terms and codes. In the name of federation, accessibility, and transparency, there definitely needs to be a single database that describes all this, just like your wiki idea.
Have… Have you tried Google?
Are you missing the /s tag?
All of these things have already been disclosed.
ActivityPub is a public standard. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub
kbin is open source. https://github.com/ernestwisniewski/kbin
Lemmy is also open source. https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy
Google is your friend.
I’m not sure about your last sentence. Google likes to collect cadavers. But I know what you mean :)
much thanks!! i will have a look at them :P thank you fo taking my concerns seriously :p actually there are huge groups of us high tech high AI high IQ people on discord who all feel marginalised and hated (many many incels here), and having people like you explain and open up really helps stop us from being suicidal and hating the world. we’re all struggling. pls help. much thanks!
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
An article covering similar issues to what you brought up.
much thanks!
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Hahahah. Very good explanation, and well articulated. My thoughts exatcly
and this is why we must FIGHT BACK!!! I recommend the best way is to make the entire messaging system, twitter included, government owned and regulated. Who pays for it? The top 10% of all wealth and income earners in each country. BAM!!! Simple and QED.
We can privatise it again later, when the rules and environment for regulation are more settled.
My Raspberry pi 4 hosting a lemmy instance be like
I mean, it is possible that instance admins will be able to show advertising on ones instance, but you will be able to find dotation based, ad-free instance instead. Lemmy as a whole won’t be monetized, only a particular instance. But it’s only my guess
That’s the dream. We got to work to make it real. People who can should donate, others will likely have to suffer some monetization.
I am not sure if there is another version since nothing is free.
The big difference with Lemmy is that it’s not really a service, it’s a open protocol and standard, like email, or http. The service itself is provided by distributed instances that adhere to the protocol. Like those protocols, no one company has been able to get a monopoly on it. Some have taken over a lot of it, like Google with Gmail, or cloudflare, but if you don’t want to work with them there are a ton of other options you can go with, and you will not be locked out of the system if you do.
Reddit was a centralized closed source system so if you don’t have a Reddit account then you are locked out of the system completely.
Lemmy is decentralized so no one instance has or can gain a monopoly. If you want to break ties with one instance you can just switch to another one and still participate with it and the rest of the fediverse.
Not only does that give you choice in a worst case scenario, it also keeps all the instances on their toes because they don’t have dictatorial control over their users.
Spez’s fatal miscalculation was that he thought he had user lock in, but unlike other social networks where it’s your only option to keep in contact with your real life friends, or it’s the only platform your favorite creator posts on, they had neither. Almost all accounts were not connected to your real life and posts were mostly links to other platforms. Very few creators had Reddit as their sole posting platform. The interactions were ephemeral and superficial. Dropping Reddit was the easiest service I ever had to drop.
