Yep. They lie about themselves and they’re opponents. Just like their opponents do in an opposing direction. They lie to make the opponents look worse and themselves look better.
Just like you’ve done here.
Exaggeration of “enemy” faults while downplaying your own.
Fuck do you mean, Doug, are you denying all the apologia, fascism, colonialism, racism, sexism, ablism, and homophobia that occurred? And I wasn’t there but I sure hope they gave the liberals of your instance hell for their imperialist views.
They came in with broad sweeping statements and assumptions paired with judgements and wishes of harm based in nothing but their own minds from what I could see.
There was also no shortage of an amplification of the message in this comic, all Western media is lying about everything all the time kinda thing. In the interest of full disclosure that’s very likely an exaggeration itself, but I’d wager closer to the truth than what’s here.
I’m not denying any of that happened any more than you’re denying what went down on my home instance. I wasn’t there
Not all western media is lying. There are a few okay podcasts, the Intercept, the Guardian is okay sometimes. Uhh… I can’t think of any others off the top of my head right now. Pretty much all Western government organizations and individuals related to foreign policy are shit, I’m afraid. Like a couple of Irish politicians and a smattering of minority party people across the EU are the only real exception.
Well done dropping the part where I explained that’s likely an exaggeration. The source is out in the open. You’re as free to look on my home instance as I am to look at your modlog.
I think they’d be as honest as their enemy is about them. Why would I assume that it’s only one side lying about the other?
Beyond that the best lies are rooted in truth. Honesty happens with enough frequency to make the lies credible.
Then there’s also the openness to influence I keep with people all over the world. Looking at varying points of view is so often the path to truth.
You’re as free to look on my home instance as I am to look at your modlog.
Yeah nah i’ve seen how the imperialist bigoted fuckers from your instance behaved on here so I am safe to assume that they acted as such on home turf. They fully deserved any hate they got.
I think they’d be as honest as their enemy is about them. Why would I assume that it’s only one side lying about the other?
So you deny that the combined western powers headed by america are a uniquely evil white-supremacist entity that has brought terror and misery to the people of our world?
Me: You guys acted more aggressive in my instance than this comic portrays
You: Both sides. Concern troll…
Posted an example elsewhere. Someone being a far bigger piece of shit doesn’t mean you are incapable of being kinda crappy yourself. We’re very far from anything resembling a both sides thing here
The one example you posted elsewhere (that I can find in your posts, you still won’t like or make it clear for others) is this comment which is a bit ranty and online for my personal tastes, but I don’t have any problem with the content of.
More importantly though, cherry picking the most (ironically) all caps reply you got here is not the same as providing evidence of Hexbear users “acting much more aggressively in my instance”. So you still haven’t provided anything to back up the claim you’ve made all over this thread. So yeah, plenty of people here will rightly doubt your sincerity.
I didn’t link anything specifically for two reasons. For one, I didn’t feel obligated to go sifting through a post I didn’t especially enjoy the first time. For two, it was an effort to meet the same energy as “check the modlog”.
Was I right in either of those, maybe not. I’ll own that.
On the other hand if you don’t have any notable issues with that comment I have my doubts you’d be more critical of anything I’ve seen on my instance.
But at the end of the day we’re all different people with different insights and opinions. Am I wrong about how a comment reads to me and you’re right? Is it the other way around? Neither. We’re both right about how it reads to us. But that’s not likely to change how you view my sincerity.
I’ve made my point with a good faith addendum on the slightest off-chance I’m wrong about your intentions, so I refer you to that, and with that I’m disengaging.
Idk, I saw a few comments on that post that were bad but most of it from what I saw were decently calm disagreements, at least calm in comparison to being called state actors as OP did in the post
I looked through it a few minutes ago and there are definitely polite disagreements. I absolutely appreciate that. There’s also people in there obviously trying to stir shit, which I don’t.
I gave the op a little more room, not for being from the same instance as me, but for being consciously unaware. Maybe I did wrong there, maybe I didn’t. But they did post a “what’s with” type question which implies unawareness.
I think I agree with a lot of people here more than I disagree. But it seems like more than a few would rather label me as an enemy over the things we disagree on than meet in kindness over the things we agree on. Makes discourse much harder.
It’s hardly an exaggeration of enemy faults when the enemies self-identify as fascists or are a bunch of transphobes who can’t even handle the existence of pronoun tags. And yes, transphobes and fascists are my enemies, these people literally want to kill me or want to deny my right to exist as myself in public and live a dignified life. I won’t have that here, or anywhere we can extend our influence. As somebody else said, go to the bottom of the page and check our modlog. We’re open and transparent about our moderation policy, everybody can see which mod actions were taken and why. For context, we normally have a person like that show up every other day at most, now we have to purge bigots all the time. Maybe your standards are too low to get this, maybe you think “nonbinary people don’t exist” or “stop using pronouns” isn’t hate speech, but it is. These are reactionary talking points and idgaf if you’re fine with such people infiltrating your instance, we will keep our community safe from harm as we’ve done before when such issues came up. Being an inclusive, safer space takes active work and it includes stepping on people’s toes and kicking people out who can’t behave.
Nope, I’m with you on all that. That’s also not what the comic is highlighting. Trans people exist and deserve all the rights everyone else has. Transphobes are pieces of shit and should be dealt with accordingly.
“I think Western institutions and media are not being entirely honest about their geopolitical opinions” is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
“I think Western institutions and media are not being entirely honest about their geopolitical opinions” is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
What you see is the logical conclusion of when you step back and realize that people are always supporting this year’s war drive and claiming last year’s war drive is ancient history and all in the past.
You say that like a whole lot of us didn’t have that realization decades ago.
No experience is universal and your logical conclusion won’t be the same for everyone.
Even if it were by throwing something aggressive in the face of someone who isn’t even on the same road you’re just going to come off as an ass. You drive others deeper into their position rather than getting anywhere productive. Which you may not care about on the surface, but then I’d argue you’re just pushing a different war drive.
You say that like they haven’t held that position through multiple farcical wars.
I’m not the one driving them deeper into their position. They have chosen to do so themselves. Which is why they are more concerned about my civility than the millions starved and killed in the name of the rules based international order.
they are more concerned about my civility than the millions starved and killed in the name of the rules based international order.
You say that like your know their level of concern or activity in regards to those.
Consider someone starting to consider view points beyond how they were raised. Are they more or less likely to go toward someone with inflammatory rhetoric? The concept of a pipeline is hardly a new one.
Believe it or not the world isn’t divisible into two camps. Why would you not encourage people to flow towards a direction that should be inviting?
Consider someone starting to consider view points beyond how they were raised.
unironically, the bullying takes work. many of the people on this website are here because they got pressured for bad takes, got shocked and confused, and stuck around to learn more. others went wow those commies are funny and ended up doing the reading. civility only protects the status quo. we live in a fucked up world and pretending it’s not by masking how fucked up it is that people defend that status quo serves absolutely no one but the powerful. any tool that breaks people away from that reflexive defensive posture towards extant power is only an immeasurable good.
So if it breaks one person away but twenty more say they knew they were right about all them and refuse to ever attempt to engage in discussion again, that’s good?
Yeah, it’s fucked. We have people insisting that trans people are grooming kids while preachers keep getting arrested for actually doing far more than the trans folks are even accused of. But if you throw a whole lot of the country into the deep end of the pool they’ll just drown while they take all the lifeguards down with them. But if you can let them dip their toes in the shallow end then you may find them swimming laps before you realize.
Its so funny how you guys became so used to being able to live in an echo chamber of western capitalist propaganda on reddit, then moved here, then had that bubble popped by us and lemmygrad, then became INCREDIBLY DESPERATE to get away from opinions you previously were sheltered from. Its just a funny reaction to witness.
Probably not the most extreme example but it was relatively easy to find
So because some people are so much worse it’s ok to be crappy? That doesn’t really jive with me. We should all always be trying to be better than we have been before.
Those “crappy” people prove the point the op you quoted was making, people in other instances ARE hyper sensitive to critiques of western capitalism, that’s just an easily observable fact, and it’s not rude or out of order to point it out
People in this instance including me are more than willing to engage in good faith with those curious about our politics, but there will be no toleration of bigotry or blind faith in a vicious ideology that is cooking the earth
If we’re defedrated because of those principles, so be it
Some are, yeah. I’m happy to be involved in similar discussions and I’m fine parting without agreement. You don’t even need to leave the comments below my original one here to see that it isn’t a universal position though. We are more often judged by our worst than not but that doesn’t seem to fly with at least a few people here.
So because some people are so much worse it’s ok to be crappy
Yeah. People reciprocate affection and vitriol, and being civil towards bigots is not a virtue. It’s just a point of exploitation for bad faith posters to exacerbate divisions and legitimize their bigotries.
Also, it’s the internet. Log off. I set my feed to local to avoid the other lemmy instances. Do that on midwest.social please.
That doesn’t really jive with me. We should all always be trying to be better than we have been before.
The vulgarity and dismissiveness come forth in Hexbear after an established pattern from a user, native or visiting, of bad faith arguments, bigotry, and apologia for anticommunist institutions, policies, and states. People who come from other instances, that act in the aforementioned manner, aren’t starting from the position of blind and unwilful ignorance curious of the world, political theory, or political economy and willing to know, discuss, and consider alternative perspectives.
Those bad faith posters, when discussing politics, work backwards from their conclusions. They engineer reasons for their prejudices and are unable and unwilling to overcome cognitive dissonance, reject all counterarguments as propaganda and just refer people as bots/paid shills/stooges or other dehumanizing flags to label dissidents.
If you’re not a concern troll, agree to disagree, and go away. Ask your instance to defederate if its unbearable for you.
work backwards from their conclusions. They engineer reasons for their prejudices and are unable and unwilling to overcome cognitive dissonance, reject all counterarguments
From what I’ve seen this is not unique to people outside hexbear
agree to disagree
Happy to. Hopefully we can agree on other things in the future
is aesthetically different or semantically different? because that’s pretty much what I see. people get aggro about it sometimes but the semantic content of what they’re saying is still what’s in the image.
aesthetics can still matter. If I say I disagree with you or I say I think you’re a stupid piece of trash there are people who would consider that to be aesthetically different but they convey a different message that will be received different.
tone policing sucks ass. I will not be polite and civil with people who callously disregard human lives. civility is the false peace, a white, middle class sensibility that I refuse to adopt. civility masks the underlying tensions that mark our fucked up world, pretending everything is hunky dory. fuck that. bring the tensions into the light. it’s only then that we stand any chance of resolving them. I’m not afraid of conflict. bring it on.
Where did I say to pretend that everything is hunky dory? Where have I callously disregarded human lives?
I neither can nor have the energy to try and make you do anything different than you will. But until it comes to violent revolution you’re not going to change many minds with aggression.
Where did I say to pretend that everything is hunky dory? Where have I callously disregarded human lives?
You commented in an instance you never have before to specifically ignore the issues of and then go on to undermine perfectly valid and verifiable instances of bigotry - specifically transphobia - in both the post and the comments. Instead jumping to take offense at vague criticisms of “Western instutions and media” and both sides bigots and fash with a harmless anti-bigot comic. You did this for 9 hours.
You tell me what we should assume about your intentions.
I commented a criticism about the behavior of members of the instance after they had made a showing on my own. The criticism was relevant to the comic.
go on to undermine perfectly valid and verifiable instances of bigotry - specifically transphobia - in both the post and the comments
Where?
Instead jumping to take offense at vague criticisms of “Western instutions and media”
This is a big part of my criticism, so yeah, I focused on it where applicable.
and both sides bigots and fash with a harmless anti-bigot comic.
Where?
You did this for 9 hours.
I did this periodically as my day allowed. I responded to people who responded to me. Would it have been received better or worse if I just ignored responses?
You tell me what we should assume about your intentions.
This style of comic always does this, though, it reduces the arguments down to the basics to demonstrate why the other side is wrong. I’ve definitely seen many a Hexbear user get called a bot for implying that NATO countries are being dishonest about their geopolitical opponents, that’s all the comic is trying to say really.
I don’t doubt it. It seems like a large swath of the Internet has a hard time understanding that their own thoughts and experiences aren’t universal.
I’ll absolutely agree that NATO countries are dishonest about their geopolitical opponents. I would also say those opponents are dishonest about NATO countries. I don’t think that’s at all far fetched. It bothers me that it seems to come off controversial around here.
Well, yeah, but as westerners we can’t do anything about how Russian or Chinese people react to their governments’ messaging, we can only make sure to defeat imperialist narratives in our own spheres. Sometimes downplaying the negative aspects about other countries, especially the negative aspects that our own nations use for propaganda, is a good rhetorical tactic to keep the focus on what we can do to make positive change happen and not fall for the narratives that are directed at us.
What about when we get first hand accounts from trusted sources in regards to the state of life in those countries. Would you ignore them to continue keeping focus or acknowledge them?
If I didn’t recognize the fascists I was standing next to (or their narratives) then the people getting mad at them would probably seem unreasonable to me too.
By somehow getting them to question their old dogma and think maybe they might have been wrong. Then they might open their mind up and seek/absorb new information.
Not for me it wasn’t. I was a comfortable (but disgruntled) liberal before stumbling on CTH years and years ago (this is a new handle I made early this year). Maybe I was further along in my journey and was already primed for it but I connected with the vibe immediately. That was when I actually started my leftist academic journey in earnest and started participating/contributing to local groups/orgs.
The shitposts got me to read more books and do more stuff than being disappointed by the democratic party for years by myself ever did.
Am I supposed to sit here and recount every single racist vicious or vapid thing a liberal said in my presence in a row? I have to write an entire book for you of all the times?
How many times does it have to happen in diverse circumstance before my investigation may be completed?
How many cups of water do I need to pull out of how many parts of the ocean in order to prove that you’d get wet when I dumped it on your face?
This isn’t some knee jerk reaction. They are a part of a system and view it as normal or even good, which necessitates these bad views and bad actions. They are Liberals, therefore they believe in racist vicious and vapid things. That’s what liberalism is constructed out of. It’s not some coincidence, and I damn sure don’t need any more data points for my fucking graph
Here’s the heart of the issue. You’re attributing me somewhere incorrectly and continuing away from there. It’s also confusing to people who haven’t been through the liberal vs leftist talk yet but would otherwise be an ally.
You are a liberal
Nope
therefore you believe in racist vicious and vapid things
Still no
That’s what liberalism is constructed out of.
And some of the greatest science owes debt to terrible things. That doesn’t mean good can’t come from bad. Plenty of leftists had to go through liberalism to get there.
You’ve been concern trolling this thread for nine hours, wihtout ever offering a take, belief, or post of your own that isn’t debate-bro nonesense or shitstirring. You’ve never posted in a Hexbear thread before. From the visable post history here your posts in other instances aren’t much different. I wonder why people don’t take the time to take your seriously.
We have @Civility@hexbear.net here and they’re funnier than you. Post hog, drop the debate bro shit and be earnest, or move on.
This is unhelpful, that comment wasn’t even in response to the intent of my comment and we already both moved past it
This person is engaging with me in good faith, do not fuck with them. If they said something truly objectionable elsewhere, point it out over there not here
I’ve been trying to be increasingly clear throughout the day. It looks like it’s not landing regardless so let me go out of the way to do the best I can.
Racism, fascism, transphobia, homophobia, sexism, ablism, and the other bullshit that somehow missed the list is all unacceptable.
Liberalism is a step on the path for those coming from somewhere like conservatism, but not a stopping place.
Misunderstanding, at least in part from me, is probably a big part of why this has all gone on so long. I’m sure I agree with most people here far more than I disagree with them.
Fair enough and thanks for clarifying. There’s still a point in there though. Does telling someone they’re racist and genocidal get further than telling them they’re supporting such things or than trying to help them understand how the things they’re doing are supporting such things?
Violence begets violence. It remains true in violent language. It’s a last option and since we’re strangers on the internet we should be pretty far from a last option.
the person who is being racist and who I am saying “you are racist” to is not my concern. Myself and them in the interaction is a spectacle, it is a public communication, it is more than just one person talking to another, I don’t fuck with nazis cause I think it will change their mind, I do it so they LEAVE.
Educating others who are reading, providing more context, or making it publicly clear bigotry is unacceptable as community defense are my goals when posting.
Usually. Sometimes I’m just mad.
That being said, I’m not sure what you mean in this context by volent language, could you clarify?
This feels like a decent starting point. Deliberately inflammatory language. It goes much farther of course. That’s a pretty low end example.
What about the person that’s being racist and not realizing it? It was only a few years ago I realized how fucked up it is to say gyp. I assumed it was jip before. I try to be conscious of my faults but not everyone does. A lot of people would probably say “fuck you no I’m not” if you called them a racist for something like that.
As for that particular example, I see that it is 11 replies deep in a tree of replies, and that that user has made many posts in that line. It seems to me to be more of a frustration peak than it is a chosen demeanor.
Its frustrating to have the same argument over and over, and although it may not be the most polite, no one is required to be graceful.
Well, their feelings in the moment aren’t really relevant imo. If someone has insulted me, it is not my job to inform them of this fact in a way that doesn’t make them feel bad. That’s something to keep in mind. When I was in highschool I was a fucking ghoul I was a nazi in all but name, so I get it. But redeeming hardcore liberals is not required
It’s not required of course, but shouldn’t it be a goal when possible? “Hearts and minds” and all that, right?
I certainly feel the point about frustration over making the same argument over and over.
It’s not your job, you’re right. But doesn’t building a better society require effort? No one is obligated to help anyone improve or understand, but we’ll get a lot farther if we do when we can. Only doing what we have to do doesn’t get us very far.
Exaggeration would be expected and perfectly normal in a political satire comic strip… I really wish i had to use it. Sadly, a joke came here numerous times and wrote itself. Objectively, the only thing i did was to downplay our position a little.
What are you even trying to say? That our “brigading” somehow caused them to behave like a racist, homophobe, transphobe, sexist .etc? Look, even most people who’s country was invaded don’t use it as excuse for this kind of discrimination. And you’re talking about some shitposting in political threads?
I’m saying this makes it look like you think your shit doesn’t stink. You’re not the bastion of reason it looks like you’re trying to present yourself as.
I have no idea how you got to the interpretation you put there.
Just because someone is wrong doesn’t make the other person right. American politics are a great demonstration of that.
Similarly just because someone is a giant piece of shit doesn’t mean someone else is incapable of being crappy. I don’t know how it reads differently without assuming I’m incapable of understanding that.
If somebody made a comic about my political views an behavior and only exaggerated/downplayed one aspect instead of going full strawman like the usual? I’d subscribe to their Patreon.
It must be so cool not needing to ever actually examine a situation before knowing immediately what’s going on and what the motivations of people are. Just super easy and gratifying, huh?
“No investigation, no right to speak” is an extremely easy bar to clear and a very easy thing to learn when you’re entering any space you’re not familiar with or held by a cultural or other group you are not a member of.
Don’t talk over people if you don’t know what you’re talking about. You obviously don’t have to know everything. If you don’t know you listen before you talk.
That’s assuming I have no familiarity with a group that exists in a public space and recently made a big showing on my own instance.
It’s not possible to talk over someone in a back and forth medium such as this. Even then I’ve endeavored to be respectful. I’ve failed in places, sure. I’m human. But the attempt isn’t meaningless.
Just because you haven’t seen me before doesn’t mean I haven’t looked before saying anything. Seems like there’s an interesting reversal in there somewhere.
Yep. They lie about themselves and they’re opponents. Just like their opponents do in an opposing direction. They lie to make the opponents look worse and themselves look better.
Just like you’ve done here.
Exaggeration of “enemy” faults while downplaying your own.
objectivity is a myth and everyone is shaped by their material background
Citations Needed Ep 113: Hollywood and Anti-Muslim Racism (Part I) — Action and Adventure Schlock
This one is going to find a massive increase in use since federation
Check the modlog, Doug, there is no exaggeration.
Don’t need to. Saw how your users here descended upon my home instance the other day. You’re hardly without blame around here
Fuck do you mean, Doug, are you denying all the apologia, fascism, colonialism, racism, sexism, ablism, and homophobia that occurred? And I wasn’t there but I sure hope they gave the liberals of your instance hell for their imperialist views.
They came in with broad sweeping statements and assumptions paired with judgements and wishes of harm based in nothing but their own minds from what I could see.
There was also no shortage of an amplification of the message in this comic, all Western media is lying about everything all the time kinda thing. In the interest of full disclosure that’s very likely an exaggeration itself, but I’d wager closer to the truth than what’s here.
I’m not denying any of that happened any more than you’re denying what went down on my home instance. I wasn’t there
Not all western media is lying. There are a few okay podcasts, the Intercept, the Guardian is okay sometimes. Uhh… I can’t think of any others off the top of my head right now. Pretty much all Western government organizations and individuals related to foreign policy are shit, I’m afraid. Like a couple of Irish politicians and a smattering of minority party people across the EU are the only real exception.
All media is lying to you a large part of the time. Yet it’s only Western media you seem interested in calling out on it.
On the other end most media is telling you part of the truth or telling the truth part of the time.
They called it popular politics when I was in school
Bruv Western Media is the only media I can read. I’m American. We’re ignorant as shit. If it’s not in English I can’t do anything with it.
Then learn another language. Change and grow.
But if Western media is lying and it’s all you can read then how do you know it’s lying?
Do you think that a white-supremacist imperialist nation would be honest about an enemy that it is currently at war with?
Well done dropping the part where I explained that’s likely an exaggeration. The source is out in the open. You’re as free to look on my home instance as I am to look at your modlog.
I think they’d be as honest as their enemy is about them. Why would I assume that it’s only one side lying about the other?
Beyond that the best lies are rooted in truth. Honesty happens with enough frequency to make the lies credible.
Then there’s also the openness to influence I keep with people all over the world. Looking at varying points of view is so often the path to truth.
Yeah nah i’ve seen how the imperialist bigoted fuckers from your instance behaved on here so I am safe to assume that they acted as such on home turf. They fully deserved any hate they got.
So you deny that the combined western powers headed by america are a uniquely evil white-supremacist entity that has brought terror and misery to the people of our world?
Specifically here.
So you’ll freely judge my whole instance based on your experience on your own, but I should not do the same in kind?
Both sides. Concern troll. Civility. Blah blah blah. Post examples or fuck off.
Me: You guys acted more aggressive in my instance than this comic portrays
You: Both sides. Concern troll…
Posted an example elsewhere. Someone being a far bigger piece of shit doesn’t mean you are incapable of being kinda crappy yourself. We’re very far from anything resembling a both sides thing here
The one example you posted elsewhere (that I can find in your posts, you still won’t like or make it clear for others) is this comment which is a bit ranty and online for my personal tastes, but I don’t have any problem with the content of.
More importantly though, cherry picking the most (ironically) all caps reply you got here is not the same as providing evidence of Hexbear users “acting much more aggressively in my instance”. So you still haven’t provided anything to back up the claim you’ve made all over this thread. So yeah, plenty of people here will rightly doubt your sincerity.
I didn’t link anything specifically for two reasons. For one, I didn’t feel obligated to go sifting through a post I didn’t especially enjoy the first time. For two, it was an effort to meet the same energy as “check the modlog”.
Was I right in either of those, maybe not. I’ll own that.
On the other hand if you don’t have any notable issues with that comment I have my doubts you’d be more critical of anything I’ve seen on my instance.
But at the end of the day we’re all different people with different insights and opinions. Am I wrong about how a comment reads to me and you’re right? Is it the other way around? Neither. We’re both right about how it reads to us. But that’s not likely to change how you view my sincerity.
I’ve made my point with a good faith addendum on the slightest off-chance I’m wrong about your intentions, so I refer you to that, and with that I’m disengaging.
In sincerity, all the best to you
Idk, I saw a few comments on that post that were bad but most of it from what I saw were decently calm disagreements, at least calm in comparison to being called state actors as OP did in the post
I looked through it a few minutes ago and there are definitely polite disagreements. I absolutely appreciate that. There’s also people in there obviously trying to stir shit, which I don’t.
I gave the op a little more room, not for being from the same instance as me, but for being consciously unaware. Maybe I did wrong there, maybe I didn’t. But they did post a “what’s with” type question which implies unawareness.
I think I agree with a lot of people here more than I disagree. But it seems like more than a few would rather label me as an enemy over the things we disagree on than meet in kindness over the things we agree on. Makes discourse much harder.
😔
It’s hardly an exaggeration of enemy faults when the enemies self-identify as fascists or are a bunch of transphobes who can’t even handle the existence of pronoun tags. And yes, transphobes and fascists are my enemies, these people literally want to kill me or want to deny my right to exist as myself in public and live a dignified life. I won’t have that here, or anywhere we can extend our influence. As somebody else said, go to the bottom of the page and check our modlog. We’re open and transparent about our moderation policy, everybody can see which mod actions were taken and why. For context, we normally have a person like that show up every other day at most, now we have to purge bigots all the time. Maybe your standards are too low to get this, maybe you think “nonbinary people don’t exist” or “stop using pronouns” isn’t hate speech, but it is. These are reactionary talking points and idgaf if you’re fine with such people infiltrating your instance, we will keep our community safe from harm as we’ve done before when such issues came up. Being an inclusive, safer space takes active work and it includes stepping on people’s toes and kicking people out who can’t behave.
Nope, I’m with you on all that. That’s also not what the comic is highlighting. Trans people exist and deserve all the rights everyone else has. Transphobes are pieces of shit and should be dealt with accordingly.
“I think Western institutions and media are not being entirely honest about their geopolitical opinions” is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
What you see is the logical conclusion of when you step back and realize that people are always supporting this year’s war drive and claiming last year’s war drive is ancient history and all in the past.
You say that like a whole lot of us didn’t have that realization decades ago.
No experience is universal and your logical conclusion won’t be the same for everyone.
Even if it were by throwing something aggressive in the face of someone who isn’t even on the same road you’re just going to come off as an ass. You drive others deeper into their position rather than getting anywhere productive. Which you may not care about on the surface, but then I’d argue you’re just pushing a different war drive.
You say that like they haven’t held that position through multiple farcical wars.
I’m not the one driving them deeper into their position. They have chosen to do so themselves. Which is why they are more concerned about my civility than the millions starved and killed in the name of the rules based international order.
🥰
You say that like your know their level of concern or activity in regards to those.
Consider someone starting to consider view points beyond how they were raised. Are they more or less likely to go toward someone with inflammatory rhetoric? The concept of a pipeline is hardly a new one.
Believe it or not the world isn’t divisible into two camps. Why would you not encourage people to flow towards a direction that should be inviting?
unironically, the bullying takes work. many of the people on this website are here because they got pressured for bad takes, got shocked and confused, and stuck around to learn more. others went wow those commies are funny and ended up doing the reading. civility only protects the status quo. we live in a fucked up world and pretending it’s not by masking how fucked up it is that people defend that status quo serves absolutely no one but the powerful. any tool that breaks people away from that reflexive defensive posture towards extant power is only an immeasurable good.
So if it breaks one person away but twenty more say they knew they were right about all them and refuse to ever attempt to engage in discussion again, that’s good?
Yeah, it’s fucked. We have people insisting that trans people are grooming kids while preachers keep getting arrested for actually doing far more than the trans folks are even accused of. But if you throw a whole lot of the country into the deep end of the pool they’ll just drown while they take all the lifeguards down with them. But if you can let them dip their toes in the shallow end then you may find them swimming laps before you realize.
it’s self evident, given the issues they raise
Being able to tell the concerns of a person based off limited interactions over the Internet is a skill the world has never observed.
Being willing to assume you know such things, however, is incredibly common
What’s the phrasing, show an example or two, don’t just assert back your shit up bro
Probably not the most extreme example but it was relatively easy to find
uh, am I supposed to see an issue with that statement?
Dougee we’ve gotten transphobes, pedos, racists and incels coming into our instance, if that’s the worst you got from us, consider yourself lucky
So because some people are so much worse it’s ok to be crappy? That doesn’t really jive with me. We should all always be trying to be better than we have been before.
Those “crappy” people prove the point the op you quoted was making, people in other instances ARE hyper sensitive to critiques of western capitalism, that’s just an easily observable fact, and it’s not rude or out of order to point it out
People in this instance including me are more than willing to engage in good faith with those curious about our politics, but there will be no toleration of bigotry or blind faith in a vicious ideology that is cooking the earth
If we’re defedrated because of those principles, so be it
Some are, yeah. I’m happy to be involved in similar discussions and I’m fine parting without agreement. You don’t even need to leave the comments below my original one here to see that it isn’t a universal position though. We are more often judged by our worst than not but that doesn’t seem to fly with at least a few people here.
Yeah. People reciprocate affection and vitriol, and being civil towards bigots is not a virtue. It’s just a point of exploitation for bad faith posters to exacerbate divisions and legitimize their bigotries.
Also, it’s the internet. Log off. I set my feed to local to avoid the other lemmy instances. Do that on midwest.social please.
The vulgarity and dismissiveness come forth in Hexbear after an established pattern from a user, native or visiting, of bad faith arguments, bigotry, and apologia for anticommunist institutions, policies, and states. People who come from other instances, that act in the aforementioned manner, aren’t starting from the position of blind and unwilful ignorance curious of the world, political theory, or political economy and willing to know, discuss, and consider alternative perspectives.
Those bad faith posters, when discussing politics, work backwards from their conclusions. They engineer reasons for their prejudices and are unable and unwilling to overcome cognitive dissonance, reject all counterarguments as propaganda and just refer people as bots/paid shills/stooges or other dehumanizing flags to label dissidents.
If you’re not a concern troll, agree to disagree, and go away. Ask your instance to defederate if its unbearable for you.
From what I’ve seen this is not unique to people outside hexbear
Happy to. Hopefully we can agree on other things in the future
is aesthetically different or semantically different? because that’s pretty much what I see. people get aggro about it sometimes but the semantic content of what they’re saying is still what’s in the image.
aesthetics can still matter. If I say I disagree with you or I say I think you’re a stupid piece of trash there are people who would consider that to be aesthetically different but they convey a different message that will be received different.
tone policing sucks ass. I will not be polite and civil with people who callously disregard human lives. civility is the false peace, a white, middle class sensibility that I refuse to adopt. civility masks the underlying tensions that mark our fucked up world, pretending everything is hunky dory. fuck that. bring the tensions into the light. it’s only then that we stand any chance of resolving them. I’m not afraid of conflict. bring it on.
Where did I say to pretend that everything is hunky dory? Where have I callously disregarded human lives?
I neither can nor have the energy to try and make you do anything different than you will. But until it comes to violent revolution you’re not going to change many minds with aggression.
You commented in an instance you never have before to specifically ignore the issues of and then go on to undermine perfectly valid and verifiable instances of bigotry - specifically transphobia - in both the post and the comments. Instead jumping to take offense at vague criticisms of “Western instutions and media” and both sides bigots and fash with a harmless anti-bigot comic. You did this for 9 hours.
You tell me what we should assume about your intentions.
I commented a criticism about the behavior of members of the instance after they had made a showing on my own. The criticism was relevant to the comic.
Where?
This is a big part of my criticism, so yeah, I focused on it where applicable.
Where?
I did this periodically as my day allowed. I responded to people who responded to me. Would it have been received better or worse if I just ignored responses?
It looks like you’ve already decided
It’s a comic, Doug
They’re words, ShareThatBread. Do you understand how both foster thoughts?
This style of comic always does this, though, it reduces the arguments down to the basics to demonstrate why the other side is wrong. I’ve definitely seen many a Hexbear user get called a bot for implying that NATO countries are being dishonest about their geopolitical opponents, that’s all the comic is trying to say really.
I don’t doubt it. It seems like a large swath of the Internet has a hard time understanding that their own thoughts and experiences aren’t universal.
I’ll absolutely agree that NATO countries are dishonest about their geopolitical opponents. I would also say those opponents are dishonest about NATO countries. I don’t think that’s at all far fetched. It bothers me that it seems to come off controversial around here.
Well, yeah, but as westerners we can’t do anything about how Russian or Chinese people react to their governments’ messaging, we can only make sure to defeat imperialist narratives in our own spheres. Sometimes downplaying the negative aspects about other countries, especially the negative aspects that our own nations use for propaganda, is a good rhetorical tactic to keep the focus on what we can do to make positive change happen and not fall for the narratives that are directed at us.
I don’t agree but I can respect your position.
What about when we get first hand accounts from trusted sources in regards to the state of life in those countries. Would you ignore them to continue keeping focus or acknowledge them?
If I didn’t recognize the fascists I was standing next to (or their narratives) then the people getting mad at them would probably seem unreasonable to me too.
And how would you go about getting someone to recognize the fascists they’re standing next to for what they are in such a situation?
By somehow getting them to question their old dogma and think maybe they might have been wrong. Then they might open their mind up and seek/absorb new information.
Which you’re less likely to be able to do with name calling and aggressive behavior, yes?
Not for me it wasn’t. I was a comfortable (but disgruntled) liberal before stumbling on CTH years and years ago (this is a new handle I made early this year). Maybe I was further along in my journey and was already primed for it but I connected with the vibe immediately. That was when I actually started my leftist academic journey in earnest and started participating/contributing to local groups/orgs.
The shitposts got me to read more books and do more stuff than being disappointed by the democratic party for years by myself ever did.
I’m a big enough person to admit I’m not always right.
It is a turn off for me though. I prefer to build up and encourage and to have the same energy around me.
they actually don’t, fascists have to keep lying about the fact how they’re not racist and don’t want to genocide everybody
we don’t have to lie about anything because we don’t want to do anything secretly nefarious. It’s simple.
Am I supposed to sit here and recount every single racist vicious or vapid thing a liberal said in my presence in a row? I have to write an entire book for you of all the times?
How many times does it have to happen in diverse circumstance before my investigation may be completed?
How many cups of water do I need to pull out of how many parts of the ocean in order to prove that you’d get wet when I dumped it on your face?
This isn’t some knee jerk reaction. They are a part of a system and view it as normal or even good, which necessitates these bad views and bad actions. They are Liberals, therefore they believe in racist vicious and vapid things. That’s what liberalism is constructed out of. It’s not some coincidence, and I damn sure don’t need any more data points for my fucking graph
Here’s the heart of the issue. You’re attributing me somewhere incorrectly and continuing away from there. It’s also confusing to people who haven’t been through the liberal vs leftist talk yet but would otherwise be an ally.
Nope
Still no
And some of the greatest science owes debt to terrible things. That doesn’t mean good can’t come from bad. Plenty of leftists had to go through liberalism to get there.
You’ve been concern trolling this thread for nine hours, wihtout ever offering a take, belief, or post of your own that isn’t debate-bro nonesense or shitstirring. You’ve never posted in a Hexbear thread before. From the visable post history here your posts in other instances aren’t much different. I wonder why people don’t take the time to take your seriously.
We have @Civility@hexbear.net here and they’re funnier than you. Post hog, drop the debate bro shit and be earnest, or move on.
This is unhelpful, that comment wasn’t even in response to the intent of my comment and we already both moved past it
This person is engaging with me in good faith, do not fuck with them. If they said something truly objectionable elsewhere, point it out over there not here
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Fair enough comrade, I apologise. I didn’t mean to step on your toes. I’ll comment elsewhere as they’re all over this thread.
Thank you o7
What are you if not a liberal?
Very left. Just not quite as left as it seems a lot of people here are.
“Very left” like what? “I’d have voted for Obama a third time if I could!”?
It’s good when a fascist reforms and abandons their bad ideology but that doesn’t mean every ideology they adopted before reforming was “good”
I agree
Ok great. I interpreted what you said as liberalism is good because people on the left used to be liberals.
I’ve been trying to be increasingly clear throughout the day. It looks like it’s not landing regardless so let me go out of the way to do the best I can.
Racism, fascism, transphobia, homophobia, sexism, ablism, and the other bullshit that somehow missed the list is all unacceptable.
Liberalism is a step on the path for those coming from somewhere like conservatism, but not a stopping place.
Misunderstanding, at least in part from me, is probably a big part of why this has all gone on so long. I’m sure I agree with most people here far more than I disagree with them.
I knew I should have said they. I put liberals in parenthesis to show that in that sentence I was referring to a hypothetical liberal
I Wasnt intending that part to refer directly to you, or any reader, but I guess that just made it confusing
Fixed it.
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Fair enough and thanks for clarifying. There’s still a point in there though. Does telling someone they’re racist and genocidal get further than telling them they’re supporting such things or than trying to help them understand how the things they’re doing are supporting such things?
Violence begets violence. It remains true in violent language. It’s a last option and since we’re strangers on the internet we should be pretty far from a last option.
the person who is being racist and who I am saying “you are racist” to is not my concern. Myself and them in the interaction is a spectacle, it is a public communication, it is more than just one person talking to another, I don’t fuck with nazis cause I think it will change their mind, I do it so they LEAVE.
Educating others who are reading, providing more context, or making it publicly clear bigotry is unacceptable as community defense are my goals when posting.
Usually. Sometimes I’m just mad.
That being said, I’m not sure what you mean in this context by volent language, could you clarify?
This feels like a decent starting point. Deliberately inflammatory language. It goes much farther of course. That’s a pretty low end example.
What about the person that’s being racist and not realizing it? It was only a few years ago I realized how fucked up it is to say gyp. I assumed it was jip before. I try to be conscious of my faults but not everyone does. A lot of people would probably say “fuck you no I’m not” if you called them a racist for something like that.
As for that particular example, I see that it is 11 replies deep in a tree of replies, and that that user has made many posts in that line. It seems to me to be more of a frustration peak than it is a chosen demeanor.
Its frustrating to have the same argument over and over, and although it may not be the most polite, no one is required to be graceful.
Well, their feelings in the moment aren’t really relevant imo. If someone has insulted me, it is not my job to inform them of this fact in a way that doesn’t make them feel bad. That’s something to keep in mind. When I was in highschool I was a fucking ghoul I was a nazi in all but name, so I get it. But redeeming hardcore liberals is not required
It’s not required of course, but shouldn’t it be a goal when possible? “Hearts and minds” and all that, right?
I certainly feel the point about frustration over making the same argument over and over.
It’s not your job, you’re right. But doesn’t building a better society require effort? No one is obligated to help anyone improve or understand, but we’ll get a lot farther if we do when we can. Only doing what we have to do doesn’t get us very far.
Exaggeration would be expected and perfectly normal in a political satire comic strip… I really wish i had to use it. Sadly, a joke came here numerous times and wrote itself. Objectively, the only thing i did was to downplay our position a little.
So you don’t shit in you own house, just in others? That’s not really improving anything.
I’m saying this makes it look like you think your shit doesn’t stink. You’re not the bastion of reason it looks like you’re trying to present yourself as.
I have no idea how you got to the interpretation you put there.
Okay so because we’re jerks, this guy isn’t a fascist? Is that your position?
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Not remotely
That’s exactly how it reads Doug.
Just because someone is wrong doesn’t make the other person right. American politics are a great demonstration of that.
Similarly just because someone is a giant piece of shit doesn’t mean someone else is incapable of being crappy. I don’t know how it reads differently without assuming I’m incapable of understanding that.
I wonder if you’d have the same reaction if it were “a fucking comic strip” in the reverse direction
If somebody made a comic about my political views an behavior and only exaggerated/downplayed one aspect instead of going full strawman like the usual? I’d subscribe to their Patreon.
How do you reconcile that with upset over lying media?
No, I would have a much more subdued reaction, probably just roll my eyes and continue scrolling, because communists in the west are used to slander.
You know we’re federated with other instances, right?
And?
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It must be so cool not needing to ever actually examine a situation before knowing immediately what’s going on and what the motivations of people are. Just super easy and gratifying, huh?
I wouldn’t know
So do not speak
Is that take really, “if you don’t know everything don’t say anything”?
“No investigation, no right to speak” is an extremely easy bar to clear and a very easy thing to learn when you’re entering any space you’re not familiar with or held by a cultural or other group you are not a member of.
Don’t talk over people if you don’t know what you’re talking about. You obviously don’t have to know everything. If you don’t know you listen before you talk.
That’s assuming I have no familiarity with a group that exists in a public space and recently made a big showing on my own instance.
It’s not possible to talk over someone in a back and forth medium such as this. Even then I’ve endeavored to be respectful. I’ve failed in places, sure. I’m human. But the attempt isn’t meaningless.
Just because you haven’t seen me before doesn’t mean I haven’t looked before saying anything. Seems like there’s an interesting reversal in there somewhere.